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Post by Catilina on Jul 30, 2018 2:13:45 GMT
Not in the main building in a Catedral. And Kirkwall's not a medieval city – nor Thedas a medieval culture. It's mixed. Still yes, actually. And that practice continued to well past medieval times. It was seen as one of the duties of the church. Also that Chantry in Kirkwall is far more than a cathedral. Anders directly and indirectly murdered children. He owned it, so you should too. Again: not in the main building. Did you saw how big is the Kirkwall Chantry? And Anders destroyed the main building with some Templars and Chantry-mothers/sisters. Sebastian spoke about dozens in DA2 and in the Inquisition too – and Sebastian doesn't have any reason to reduce the number. Yes, Anders directly murdered dozens what means: ~24–96. Still: "Anders killed innocent children" is no more, than a melodramatic exaggeration. But the Chantry killed innocent children, not once.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 30, 2018 4:18:03 GMT
So I think characterising the claim as an exaggeration is kind. Personally I'm leaning towards "outright lie". That's OK.
Even in the unlikely chance that I'm simply imagining such a conversation - and even in the more unlikely chance that the Chantry didn't have children in it (they don't have to be refugees, initiates exist), I can just invoke Death of the Author to suit my whims.
Invoking Death of the Author doesn't free you from the obligation of finding evidence in the text, however. But since I can't be assed booting up DA2 and tracking down every NPC to talk to them, I'll concede that there is a possibility, however remote, that children are in the Chantry. And as precious, precious non-mage children, their deaths actually MATTER. As opposed to the death of Cole and attempted murder of Aneirin, both of which are totes fine, because, as we all know, minorities are morally obligated to continually turn the other cheek and allow themselves to be slaughtered. It's the only way to prove they deserved to be alive in the first place.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2018 10:32:21 GMT
The explosion was huge, and seeing how children are often found in chruch grounds it's rather unlikely that the only the victims were over 18 years old. Unless Anders specifically went to the Chantry beforehand doing his best impression of the child catcher to lure them all away, he had to have known that some kids would very likely die.
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Post by duskwanderer on Jul 30, 2018 12:25:02 GMT
The explosion was huge, and seeing how children are often found in chruch grounds it's rather unlikely that the only the victims were over 18 years old. Unless Anders specifically went to the Chantry beforehand doing his best impression of the child catcher to lure them all away, he had to have known that some kids would very likely die. Yeah, it's true. Remember that it's an active Chantry as well, and Anders would have no idea how many people were in it at the time. But the apologists will enjoy the deaths. Because they like the concept of killing those who don't agree with you.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 30, 2018 21:58:42 GMT
The explosion was huge, and seeing how children are often found in chruch grounds it's rather unlikely that the only the victims were over 18 years old. Unless Anders specifically went to the Chantry beforehand doing his best impression of the child catcher to lure them all away, he had to have known that some kids would very likely die. Yeah, it's true. Remember that it's an active Chantry as well, and Anders would have no idea how many people were in it at the time. But the apologists will enjoy the deaths. Because they like the concept of killing those who don't agree with you. As opposed to Chantry apologists who pretend that deaths and rampant abuses are just straight-up not happening?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2018 22:15:47 GMT
Yeah, it's true. Remember that it's an active Chantry as well, and Anders would have no idea how many people were in it at the time. But the apologists will enjoy the deaths. Because they like the concept of killing those who don't agree with you. As opposed to Chantry apologists who pretend that deaths and rampant abuses are just straight-up not happening? We could agree that ALL the deaths are wrong, there is no perfect answer, and everything sucks.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 30, 2018 22:33:41 GMT
As opposed to Chantry apologists who pretend that deaths and rampant abuses are just straight-up not happening? We could agree that ALL the deaths are wrong, there is no perfect answer, and everything sucks. Sure, in theory. I'm not going to do that, however, because I know what it feels like to be a perceived threat to the status quo, and I'm never going to see what mages have endured for millenia as any sort of acceptable, and I'm not going to pretend that the Chantry is an innocent, neutral party with no stake in the status quo. They are directly responsible for the creation and perpetuation of an abusive system. It needs to be dismantled. They can do any amount of good works for non-mages that they like. Housing non-magical orphans does not make up for sentencing mage children to what often turns out to be a lifetime of abuse. Being kind to others ought to be a basic expectation. The thing is, it would actually be extremely easy to conceive a new system, if one possessed the massive resources of the Chantry, as long as you approach from a practical, fact-based perspective of "How can we minimise harm to both parties simultaneously?", instead of the inherently biased, religious perspective of the Chantry, which is "Magic needs to be contained at all costs (except when we deem it useful for expanding our power and influence)".
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2018 22:35:12 GMT
We could agree that ALL the deaths are wrong, there is no perfect answer, and everything sucks. Sure, in theory. I'm not going to do that, however, because I know what it feels like to be a perceived threat to the status quo, and I'm never going to see what mages have endured for millenia as any sort of acceptable, and I'm not going to pretend that the Chantry is an innocent, neutral party with no stake in the status quo. They are directly responsible for the creation and perpetuation of an abusive system. It needs to be dismantled. They can do any amount of good works for non-mages that they like. Housing non-magical orphans does not make up for sentencing mage children to what often turns out to be a lifetime of abuse. Being kind to others ought to be a basic expectation. The thing is, it would actually be extremely easy to conceive a new system, if one possessed the massive resources of the Chantry, as long as you approach from a practical, fact-based perspective of "How can we minimise harm to both parties simultaneously?", instead of the inherently biased, religious perspective of the Chantry, which is "Magic needs to be contained at all costs (except when we deem it useful for expanding our power and influence)". Sadly those in power, be it real life or fictional, will never let that happen.
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Post by Walter Black on Jul 31, 2018 17:08:57 GMT
I am well aware of the Death of the Author philosophy, I simply don't care for it. Explaining why you do or do not like a creative work is one thing. Having your pet theories about it, as long as it's just for fun, is one thing. But to seriously, willfully ignore author intent in order force the square story into your preconceived circle ideals strikes me lazy, self serving and intellectually dishonest. Fiction is open to interpretation of the reader just like any other art form. Except in fiction we go by the words written, sometimes the authors leave their or parts open to interpretation or deliberately vague.
Like I said before, personal interpretation is one thing; no one is saying you have to like or agree with an author's work. You might even like it despite the creator, in a "So Bad It's Good" variety. What I am talking about is when some people knowingly ignore the author's own words on their intent in order to appropriate the work into whatever they prefer. Even when the writer specifically states that they meant X, they will argue that they actually meant Y. Even with the writers themselves . Arguing that Anders' civilian casualties should have been in the game proper? Fair enough. Arguing that they never intended to imply that innocents died from his action, despite writer Tweets to the contrary? Nope .
It's not about censorship, but honesty and truth. William Luther Pierce II wrote The Turner Diaries as a sincere fantasy and recruiting tool to his hateful ideology. If someone enjoys the book ironically, that's their right (and no account for taste). But it was never intended as satire.
I'm sure Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. also found such losses acceptable. Oh, wait...
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Post by Walter Black on Jul 31, 2018 17:15:40 GMT
- One person said is was okay to read The Turner Diaries, since he read it as satire And you've previously told me it was okay to commit murder and even genocide in a video game, and that actively making those choices in a video game doesn't make you a bad person, yet merely reading a particular book is bad? Fair enough, a poor choice of words on my part. In that instance where the person hopefully wasn't a bigot, it was less about liking the book ironically (as in a So Bad it's Good variety), but rather misrepresenting it as satire.
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Post by Walter Black on Jul 31, 2018 17:26:36 GMT
Still yes, actually. And that practice continued to well past medieval times. It was seen as one of the duties of the church. Also that Chantry in Kirkwall is far more than a cathedral. Anders directly and indirectly murdered children. He owned it, so you should too. Again: not in the main building. Did you saw how big is the Kirkwall Chantry? And Anders destroyed the main building with some Templars and Chantry-mothers/sisters. Sebastian spoke about dozens in DA2 and in the Inquisition too – and Sebastian doesn't have any reason to reduce the number. Yes, Anders directly murdered dozens what means: ~24–96. Still: "Anders killed innocent children" is no more, than a melodramatic exaggeration. But the Chantry killed innocent children, not once. Gotta love the false dichotomy here, as if by criticizing Anders we have to support the Chantry. You can't point out that both were wrong, and that 2 wrongs never make a right .
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Post by Catilina on Jul 31, 2018 17:53:36 GMT
Again: not in the main building. Did you saw how big is the Kirkwall Chantry? And Anders destroyed the main building with some Templars and Chantry-mothers/sisters. Sebastian spoke about dozens in DA2 and in the Inquisition too – and Sebastian doesn't have any reason to reduce the number. Yes, Anders directly murdered dozens what means: ~24–96. Still: "Anders killed innocent children" is no more, than a melodramatic exaggeration. But the Chantry killed innocent children, not once. Gotta love the false dichotomy here, as if by criticizing Anders we have to support the Chantry. You can't point out that both were wrong, and that 2 wrongs never make a right . No. The Chantry much worse, you can't even compare them. I didn't compare Anders' act with the Chantry acts. I justified Anders' act – because according to me, it can be justified, while what the Chantry did, is absolutely not. But many people think, the Chantry's acts are acceptable – while these aren't. I referred to this yes.
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Post by Walter Black on Jul 31, 2018 18:15:32 GMT
Gotta love the false dichotomy here, as if by criticizing Anders we have to support the Chantry. You can't point out that both were wrong, and that 2 wrongs never make a right . No. The Chantry much worse, you can't even compare them. I didn't compare Anders' act with the Chantry acts. I justified Anders' act – because according to me, it can be justified, while what the Chantry did, is absolutely not. But many people think, the Chantry's acts are acceptable – while these aren't. I referred to this yes. The murder of innocent civilians who had nothing to do with whatever evils you might be fighting, were powerless to stop said evils, and might have even aided you if given the chance is never, ever justified. Violent revolutions are always short term fixes that only create further pointless viscous cycles of pain and hatred. While they take longer, logic, reason, diplomacy and empathy lead to more permanent changes. People like Anders are simply too impatient, hateful, selfish, cowardly, incompetent and hypocritical to even try.
As far as the whole Misery Poker of which was worse, if you kill me for my wallet, that's obviously worse than if you smashed my face in for my wallet. But I still have a broken nose and missing teeth, problems that wouldn't have existed had you not robbed me at all .
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Post by Catilina on Jul 31, 2018 18:36:39 GMT
No. The Chantry much worse, you can't even compare them. I didn't compare Anders' act with the Chantry acts. I justified Anders' act – because according to me, it can be justified, while what the Chantry did, is absolutely not. But many people think, the Chantry's acts are acceptable – while these aren't. I referred to this yes. The murder of innocent civilians who had nothing to do with whatever evils you might be fighting, were powerless to stop said evils, and might have even aided you if given the chance is never, ever justified. Violent revolutions are always short term fixes that only create further pointless viscous cycles of pain and hatred. While they take longer, logic, reason, diplomacy and empathy lead to more permanent changes. People like Anders are simply too impatient, hateful, selfish, cowardly, incompetent and hypocritical to even try.
As far as the whole Misery Poker of which was worse, if you kill me for my wallet, that's obviously worse than if you smashed my face in for my wallet. But I still have a broken nose and missing teeth, problems that wouldn't have existed had you not robbed me at all . "Violence does not solve anything" – is a very popular opinion and a very hypocrite one. And everyone's involved, who are the part of the system. The Chantry's the part of the system, in fact, the head of the system.
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Post by Walter Black on Jul 31, 2018 18:49:00 GMT
The murder of innocent civilians who had nothing to do with whatever evils you might be fighting, were powerless to stop said evils, and might have even aided you if given the chance is never, ever justified. Violent revolutions are always short term fixes that only create further pointless viscous cycles of pain and hatred. While they take longer, logic, reason, diplomacy and empathy lead to more permanent changes. People like Anders are simply too impatient, hateful, selfish, cowardly, incompetent and hypocritical to even try.
As far as the whole Misery Poker of which was worse, if you kill me for my wallet, that's obviously worse than if you smashed my face in for my wallet. But I still have a broken nose and missing teeth, problems that wouldn't have existed had you not robbed me at all . "Violence does not solve anything" – is a very popular opinion and a very hypocrite one. And everyone's involved, who are the part of the system. The Chantry's the part of the system, in fact, the head of the system. 1. I never said violence never solved anything, only that it's a quick fix that too often does more harm than good, and that peaceful co-operation is needed for truly lasting reform.
2. I never defended the Chantry, only the innocent civilians caught in the crossfire. Regular people just living their lives who had nothing to do with any of it.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 31, 2018 19:06:35 GMT
"Violence does not solve anything" – is a very popular opinion and a very hypocrite one. And everyone's involved, who are the part of the system. The Chantry's the part of the system, in fact, the head of the system. 1. I never said violence never solved anything, only that it's a quick fix that too often does more harm than good, and that peaceful co-operation is needed for truly lasting reform. 2. I never defended the Chantry, only the innocent civilians caught in the crossfire. Regular people just living their lives who had nothing to do with any of it.
1. An act always a risk. But cooperation for some reforms? The system doesn't need some reforms – but needs to be destroyed. This is the starting point. Not every system worth to be reformed. For example the slavery... How can you reform the slavery? Or at least some compromise about it? 2. Anders's target was the Chantry, not the "innocent people".
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 31, 2018 19:12:26 GMT
1. I never said violence never solved anything, only that it's a quick fix that too often does more harm than good, and that peaceful co-operation is needed for truly lasting reform. 2. I never defended the Chantry, only the innocent civilians caught in the crossfire. Regular people just living their lives who had nothing to do with any of it.
1. An act always a risk. But cooperation for some reforms? The system doesn't need some reforms – but needs to be destroyed. This is the starting point. 2. Anders's target was the Chantry, not the "innocent people". First, I disagree entirely. If he killed innocent civilians that would just further spur Meredith on to take the action he wanted her too. Plus he wanted the Kirkwall Circle, who is full of innocent people, to die as sacrifices to the cause to spur the other Circles into rebelling. But ignoring all that, Anders still murdered those people because he had depraved indifference towards them. Who got hurt didn't matter to him, only his goal.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 31, 2018 19:14:05 GMT
Again: not in the main building. Did you saw how big is the Kirkwall Chantry? And Anders destroyed the main building with some Templars and Chantry-mothers/sisters. Sebastian spoke about dozens in DA2 and in the Inquisition too – and Sebastian doesn't have any reason to reduce the number. Yes, Anders directly murdered dozens what means: ~24–96. Still: "Anders killed innocent children" is no more, than a melodramatic exaggeration. But the Chantry killed innocent children, not once. Gotta love the false dichotomy here, as if by criticizing Anders we have to support the Chantry. You can't point out that both were wrong, and that 2 wrongs never make a right . I also like how because the actions of individuals in the Chantry means the entire group is guilty, yet the actions of individuals among the mages doesn't mean the entire group is guilty. What a lovely double standard.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 31, 2018 19:24:22 GMT
Gotta love the false dichotomy here, as if by criticizing Anders we have to support the Chantry. You can't point out that both were wrong, and that 2 wrongs never make a righ. I also like how because the actions of individuals in the Chantry means the entire group is guilty, yet the actions of a individuals among the mages doesn't mean the entire group is guilty. What a lovely double standard. This is a system, and the system allows it. Let's tell me only one miserable Templar or Seeker who was punished if committed a crime against the mages? But who supported the mages, got punished: Samson, Evangeline... So: this isn't double standard – and if it is, I can undertake, I have a double standard.
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Post by Walter Black on Jul 31, 2018 19:24:24 GMT
1. I never said violence never solved anything, only that it's a quick fix that too often does more harm than good, and that peaceful co-operation is needed for truly lasting reform. 2. I never defended the Chantry, only the innocent civilians caught in the crossfire. Regular people just living their lives who had nothing to do with any of it.
1. An act always a risk. But cooperation for some reforms? The system doesn't need some reforms – but needs to be destroyed. This is the starting point. Not every system worth to be reformed. For example the slavery... How can you reform the slavery? Or at least some compromise about it? As I said before, I'm sure MLK and Ghandi would agree. Oh wait... Then he was incompetent as well as a fanatic, because the writers confirmed his debris killed civilians. Whether you like it or not, it's canon.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 31, 2018 19:37:01 GMT
1. An act always a risk. But cooperation for some reforms? The system doesn't need some reforms – but needs to be destroyed. This is the starting point. Not every system worth to be reformed. For example the slavery... How can you reform the slavery? Or at least some compromise about it? As I said before, I'm sure MLK and Ghandi would agree. Oh wait... Then he was incompetent as well as a fanatic, because the writers confirmed his debris killed civilians. Whether you like it or not, it's canon.
Gandhi and Martin Luther King wanted to reform the slavery? Gandhi and Martin Luther King personally didn't commit violence. But the changes weren't without violence. Every revolution demands victims. Subsequently confirmed ... but nobody denied there were civil victims. The mages also civilians.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 31, 2018 19:40:08 GMT
As I said before, I'm sure MLK and Ghandi would agree. Oh wait... Then he was incompetent as well as a fanatic, because the writers confirmed his debris killed civilians. Whether you like it or not, it's canon.
Gandhi and Martin Luther King wanted to reform the slavery? Gandhi and Martin Luther King personally didn't commit violence. But the changes weren't without violence. Every revolution demands victims. Subsequently confirmed ... but nobody denied there were civil victims. The mages also civilians. No, it doesn't. There have been several revolutions that didn't have victims and worked.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 31, 2018 20:00:36 GMT
Gandhi and Martin Luther King wanted to reform the slavery? Gandhi and Martin Luther King personally didn't commit violence. But the changes weren't without violence. Every revolution demands victims. Subsequently confirmed ... but nobody denied there were civil victims. The mages also civilians. No, it doesn't. There have been several revolutions that didn't have victims and worked. Perhaps were some revolutions without bloodshed. Mostly I write the word: 'almost' – now I didn't. So, I can't deny it absolutely.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 31, 2018 20:09:58 GMT
No, it doesn't. There have been several revolutions that didn't have victims and worked. Perhaps were some revolutions without bloodshed. Mostly I write the word: 'almost' – now I didn't. So, I can't deny it absolutely. There's no perhaps about it. It is a fact. For example the Velvet Revolution in Czechoslovakia in 1989.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 31, 2018 20:18:12 GMT
Perhaps were some revolutions without bloodshed. Mostly I write the word: 'almost' – now I didn't. So, I can't deny it absolutely. There's no perhaps about it. It is a fact. For example the Velvet Revolution in Czechoslovakia in 1989. Oh yes. It was preceded by much bloodshed.
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