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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 31, 2018 20:22:54 GMT
There's no perhaps about it. It is a fact. For example the Velvet Revolution in Czechoslovakia in 1989. Oh yes. It was preceded by much bloodshed. And? Still no bloodshed during the revolution so it didn't need sacrifices like you said all revolutions do. Your entire argument to defend Anders' actions are made invalid by this one example, and it is hardly alone.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 31, 2018 20:31:27 GMT
Oh yes. It was preceded by much bloodshed. And? Still no bloodshed during the revolution so it didn't need sacrifices like you said all revolutions do. Your entire argument to defend Anders' actions are made invalid by this one example, and it is hardly alone. No, it's not. The circumstances are totally different. Everything is different. And Anders himself didn't expect an instant win. "Ten years... a hundred years from now..."
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 31, 2018 21:00:56 GMT
And? Still no bloodshed during the revolution so it didn't need sacrifices like you said all revolutions do. Your entire argument to defend Anders' actions are made invalid by this one example, and it is hardly alone. No, it's not. The circumstances are totally different. Everything is different. And Anders himself didn't expect an instant win. "Ten years... a hundred years from now..."
So you think the Circles was a worse situation than being under the thumb of both the Nazis and the Soviet Union, the two worst regimes in human history?
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Post by Catilina on Jul 31, 2018 21:12:34 GMT
No, it's not. The circumstances are totally different. Everything is different. And Anders himself didn't expect an instant win. "Ten years... a hundred years from now..."
So you think the Circles was a worse situation than being under the thumb of both the Nazis and the Soviet Union, the two worst regimes in human history? I don't really like this comparison, why do you force it? – But basically yes, there some similarity with our world, intentionally: the Circles is like the internment camps, the Annulment like a genocide, and to punish people just because of they born... Again: I dislike this comparison, because the circumstances are DIFFERENT – and every difference matters. This world isn't our world. There are no "terrorists" "nazis" and "nazi terrorists" – as I said in the Anders' topic years ago: these terms are unwelcome.
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Post by Walter Black on Jul 31, 2018 22:03:42 GMT
So you think the Circles was a worse situation than being under the thumb of both the Nazis and the Soviet Union, the two worst regimes in human history? I don't really like this comparison, why do you force it? – But basically yes, there some similarity with our world, intentionally: the Circles is like the internment camps, the Annulment like a genocide, and to punish people just because of they born... Again: I dislike this comparison, because the circumstances are DIFFERENT – and every difference matters. This world isn't our world. There are no "terrorists" "nazis" and "nazi terrorists" – as I said in the Anders' topic years ago: these terms are unwelcome. You don't like it when those terms are applied to mages (and may again when we get to Tevinter) but are quite happy to throw them at the Chantry, the Templars, nobility, hell anyone who doesn't belong body and soul to THE REVOLUTION. You cry about things are DIFFERENT, but then back peddle and say everything's the same when mages (intentionally or not) set people or whole villages on fire, mind control and life drain people with blood magic, and/or summon demons and become Abominations. So which is it?
1) Magic is complete fantasy with it's own rules and must be judged within the context of Thedas reality and not actual reality, or
2) Magic is merely metaphor for the human condition, and everyone (mage and mundane alike) must be judged for their own actions alone, with absolutely no mitigating factors?
You can't have it both ways.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 31, 2018 22:05:38 GMT
And you've previously told me it was okay to commit murder and even genocide in a video game, and that actively making those choices in a video game doesn't make you a bad person, yet merely reading a particular book is bad? Fair enough, a poor choice of words on my part. In that instance where the person hopefully wasn't a bigot, it was less about liking the book ironically (as in a So Bad it's Good variety), but rather misrepresenting it as satire. From cursory research into the author of The Turner Diaries, I think I can safely determine that he did not intend it to be read as satire, but rather taken very seriously. But even if it were intended to be satirical, that doesn't matter, because for satire to work, the audience has to be in on the joke. It has to be clear to the reader that the characters are being held up for ridicule and criticism. Instead, most people, both advocates and critics, take the book extremely seriously. White supremacist and neo-nazi groups have taken direct inspiration from it, going so far as to name their organizations after organizations invented in the book. It's literally illegal to import the book into Canada. So even if it were intended to be read as satire, it's bad/failed satire. But the whole reason I eschew traditional literary criticism in favour of Death of the Author, is precisely so that shitty, racist garbage doesn't get a pass just because the author claimed it was "satire". And also because I got fucking sick and tired of people telling me Wade and Herren count as gay representation (despite there being no displays of intimacy between them whatsoever), just because "David Gaider said!!!1".
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Post by Catilina on Jul 31, 2018 22:12:24 GMT
I don't really like this comparison, why do you force it? – But basically yes, there some similarity with our world, intentionally: the Circles is like the internment camps, the Annulment like a genocide, and to punish people just because of they born... Again: I dislike this comparison, because the circumstances are DIFFERENT – and every difference matters. This world isn't our world. There are no "terrorists" "nazis" and "nazi terrorists" – as I said in the Anders' topic years ago: these terms are unwelcome. You don't like it when those terms are applied to mages (and may again when we get to Tevinter) but are quite happy to throw them at the Chantry, the Templars, nobility, hell anyone who doesn't belong body and soul to THE REVOLUTION. You cry about things are DIFFERENT, but then back peddle and say everything's the same when mages (intentionally or not) set people or whole villages on fire, mind control and life drain people with blood magic, and/or summon demons and become Abominations. So which is it?
1) Magic is complete fantasy with it's own rules and must be judged within the context of Thedas reality and not actual reality, or
2) Magic is merely metaphor for the human condition, and everyone (mage and mundane alike) must be judged for their own actions alone, with absolutely no mitigating factors?
You can't have it both ways. I accepted the similarities – most of the fantasy and sci-fi arts based on the metaphors. But this world, not our world. You can't identify the Templars with the Nazis and Anders with the modern terrorists. The rebellion exists in Thedas – just as the idea of freedom. (True, I admit, I called the Qun: "fantasy-communism" – because of the re-education camps and the whole idea based on a book, on someone's nice-looking philosophia, what manifested as a nightmare.)
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Post by Walter Black on Jul 31, 2018 22:25:10 GMT
You don't like it when those terms are applied to mages (and may again when we get to Tevinter) but are quite happy to throw them at the Chantry, the Templars, nobility, hell anyone who doesn't belong body and soul to THE REVOLUTION. You cry about things are DIFFERENT, but then back peddle and say everything's the same when mages (intentionally or not) set people or whole villages on fire, mind control and life drain people with blood magic, and/or summon demons and become Abominations. So which is it?
1) Magic is complete fantasy with it's own rules and must be judged within the context of Thedas reality and not actual reality, or
2) Magic is merely metaphor for the human condition, and everyone (mage and mundane alike) must be judged for their own actions alone, with absolutely no mitigating factors?
You can't have it both ways. I accepted the similarities – most of the fantasy and sci-fi arts based on the metaphors. But this world, not our world. You can't identify the Templars with the Nazis and Anders with the modern terrorists. The rebellion exists in Thedas – just as the idea of freedom. (True, I admit, I called the Qun: "fantasy-communism") You know what? Fine. We've been arguing in circles, no pun intended. You're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours. Life's too short, there's too much negativity going on in the world, and I'm too tired to get this worked up over a damn video game. I may feel differently tomorrow, but right now I wish you all good luck, love and peace of mind.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 31, 2018 22:31:02 GMT
I accepted the similarities – most of the fantasy and sci-fi arts based on the metaphors. But this world, not our world. You can't identify the Templars with the Nazis and Anders with the modern terrorists. The rebellion exists in Thedas – just as the idea of freedom. (True, I admit, I called the Qun: "fantasy-communism") You know what? Fine. We've been arguing in circles, no pun intended. You're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours. Life's too short, there's too much negativity going on in the world, and I'm too tired to get this worked up over a damn video game. I may feel differently tomorrow, but right now I wish you all good luck, love and peace of mind. Same to you! But the life drain isn't necessarily blood magic... it's entropy, as well – totally legal, just as the reaver (warrior) spec... (I forget to answer that...) By the way, where was that pun?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 31, 2018 22:33:30 GMT
You know what? Fine. We've been arguing in circles, no pun intended. You're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours. Life's too short, there's too much negativity going on in the world, and I'm too tired to get this worked up over a damn video game. I may feel differently tomorrow, but right now I wish you all good luck, love and peace of mind. Same to you! But the life drain isn't necessarily blood magic... it's entropy, as well – totally legal, just as the reaver spec... (I forget to answer that...) By the way, where was that pun? The pun was "arguing in circles" since this place is arguing about the Circles.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 1, 2018 0:00:41 GMT
Here's what I'm sure is going to be an unpopular opinion: I don't think the Mages are in the Top 5 of the groups that have it the worst off in Thedas. 1. Slaves 2. Casteless Dwarves 3. City Elves 4. Dalish Elves 5. Peasants
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Post by Catilina on Aug 1, 2018 0:18:59 GMT
Here's what I'm sure is going to be an unpopular opinion: I don't think the Mages are in the Top 5 of the groups that have it the worst off in Thedas. 1. Slaves 2. Casteless Dwarves 3. City Elves 4. Dalish Elves 5. Peasants This is a Big Oppression Race of Thedas! What wins who wins? A shiny medal? A golden cup? By the way: Anders loved to be a peasant, Jowan's dream to be a peasant. Huon was happy with his wife even in the Alienage – in the Circle, he went crazy. The freedom's something that matter. The Dalish are free. You accept Dorian's argument about that the slavery saves the poor people from the poverty? But you can blame the Chantry for many things. For the Alienages and the Dalish, and for the Mages... And this is why the best is Leliana, and Vivienne's irrelevant – because of Leliana for everyone, but Vivienne for Vivienne, and some loyal mages.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 1, 2018 0:37:16 GMT
Yes, this inherently vague, I think too.
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Post by shechinah on Aug 1, 2018 2:26:27 GMT
So you think the Circles was a worse situation than being under the thumb of both the Nazis and the Soviet Union, the two worst regimes in human history? I don't really like this comparison, why do you force it? – But basically yes, there some similarity with our world, intentionally: the Circles is like the internment camps, the Annulment like a genocide, and to punish people just because of they born... Again: I dislike this comparison, because the circumstances are DIFFERENT – and every difference matters. This world isn't our world. There are no "terrorists" "nazis" and "nazi terrorists" – as I said in the Anders' topic years ago: these terms are unwelcome. I- are you serious?
Eight-legged horse of Odin, are you seriously comparing the Circles to the nazi concentration camps?
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Post by Catilina on Aug 1, 2018 2:32:25 GMT
I don't really like this comparison, why do you force it? – But basically yes, there some similarity with our world, intentionally: the Circles is like the internment camps, the Annulment like a genocide, and to punish people just because of they born... Again: I dislike this comparison, because the circumstances are DIFFERENT – and every difference matters. This world isn't our world. There are no "terrorists" "nazis" and "nazi terrorists" – as I said in the Anders' topic years ago: these terms are unwelcome. I- are you serious?
Eight-legged horse of Odin, are you seriously comparing the Circles to the nazi concentration camps? I said: internment camps – and not only the nazis have internment camps. It's a very popular form of the punishment of the "dangerous" people.
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Post by shechinah on Aug 1, 2018 2:34:59 GMT
I said: internment camps – and not only the nazis have internment camps. It's a very popular form of the punishment of the "dangerous" people. Perhaps you could then give an example of which internment camp you thought of when you wrote that?
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Post by Catilina on Aug 1, 2018 2:42:51 GMT
I said: internment camps – and not only the nazis have internment camps. It's a very popular form of the punishment of the "dangerous" people. Perhaps you could then give an example of which internment camp you thought of when you wrote that? A nice luxury internment camp, I suppose. (No.) But if you don't like that, then Alcatraz. With libraries. And cells, chains, lobotomy etc. Horror – for innocents. But someone gets used to it.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Aug 1, 2018 2:43:20 GMT
I don't really like this comparison, why do you force it? – But basically yes, there some similarity with our world, intentionally: the Circles is like the internment camps, the Annulment like a genocide, and to punish people just because of they born... Again: I dislike this comparison, because the circumstances are DIFFERENT – and every difference matters. This world isn't our world. There are no "terrorists" "nazis" and "nazi terrorists" – as I said in the Anders' topic years ago: these terms are unwelcome. I- are you serious?
Eight-legged horse of Odin, are you seriously comparing the Circles to the nazi concentration camps? I'm not sure it's an entirely invalid comparison, even if it does ignore the very relevant difference that mages really are dangerous. But I'd assumed he was talking about the US's internment camps. The ones we imprisoned Japanese people in because we perceived them as a danger, even without actual evidence that they were. (The ones I really don't like thinking about much. ) Again: not an entirely invalid comparison, even if it does ignore the crucial fact that Japanese people aren't really dangerous, and mages... are.
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Post by lilyonce on Aug 1, 2018 3:31:42 GMT
The circles have official autonomy, organized governance, charter under the Nevarran Accord which mages negotiated, and fit exactly the profile of a strict monastery/early university. Yes, they have no choice but to attend (for non-trivial reasons) but, damn. It's an internment camp? Oh, Lordy.
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Post by lilyonce on Aug 1, 2018 4:08:18 GMT
This is a Big Oppression Race of Thedas! What wins who wins? A shiny medal? A golden cup? The right to bitch.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Aug 1, 2018 4:13:43 GMT
The circles have official autonomy, organized governance, charter under the Nevarran Accord which mages negotiated, and fit exactly the profile of a strict monastery/early university. Yes, they have no choice but to attend (for non-trivial reasons) but, damn. It's an internment camp? Oh, Lordy. It is an area outside of the general population where members of a minority group that can't choose not to be as they are are kept. I argue that it's justified in this one case<iframe width="23.960000000000036" height="3.0600000000000023" style="position: absolute; width: 23.960000000000036px; height: 3.0600000000000023px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_4858074" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="23.960000000000036" height="3.0600000000000023" style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 3.06px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1138px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_79611294" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="23.960000000000036" height="3.0600000000000023" style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 3.06px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 94px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_73688900" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="23.960000000000036" height="3.0600000000000023" style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 3.06px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1138px; top: 94px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_30405403" scrolling="no"></iframe> , but... I can't really argue that it's not a concentration camp or internment camp.
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Post by lilyonce on Aug 1, 2018 4:27:07 GMT
Anders believed in his cause and felt the loss of life acceptable, many rebellions begin that way. Is it right? No, it is what it is. That kind of action must justify itself. It's not self justifying. It isn't just "what it is". The Chantry can defend the circles at least. There's no authority on the planet that thinks killing civilians is just, however.
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Post by lilyonce on Aug 1, 2018 4:57:44 GMT
It is an area outside of the general population where members of a minority group that can't choose not to be as they are are kept. I argue that it's justified in this one caseThat leaves out details contrary to the point and so is misleading. No matter. The Circle is now only for those that elect to join it. May there be no more about it in DA4.
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Post by Sifr on Aug 1, 2018 5:50:40 GMT
It is an area outside of the general population where members of a minority group that can't choose not to be as they are are kept. I argue that it's justified in this one caseThat leaves out details contrary to the point and so is misleading. How, the Circles are very definition of an internment/concentration camp? Large numbers of people in Thedas are being kept detained against their will, often in remote locations and often subjected to inhumane conditions and treatment (the Rite of Tranquility), because the Chantry decries that their very existence makes them de facto enemies of the establishment. ("Magic exists to serve man and never rule over him")
An internment/concentration camp is actually more applicable description for the Circle than calling them a prison, since prisons are theoretically only supposed to detain those actually guilty of a crime, whereas mages in Thedas are guilty of no crime except being mages.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 1, 2018 6:03:01 GMT
"I can compare the circles to whatever I damn well please, but you may not!"
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