lilyonce
N3
The whole universe is...
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2
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Post by lilyonce on Aug 2, 2018 4:00:05 GMT
Compassionate slavery isn't change. Revolution now! And Varania, offered the opportunity to go from oppressed to oppressor, couldn't cash in quick enough. Look, we won't celebrate their deaths or any other mage, child, whoever it is connected to the oppressor class we have to kill for liberation, but will kill them, justify it, and not think twice about it.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 2, 2018 4:01:59 GMT
They are able to leave, nobody will pursue them. This is a choice. If you don't say a word against the oppression, you're a part of the oppression, yes.Again: never ever I celebrated the death. But I agree that the deaths were inevitable. So much for not condemning them as people. I knew your response to my post on the last page was a lie. If DA2 was a better RPG that allowed more choices, it would not have been inevitable since Anders would have been arrested or killed before he did his Guy Fawkes impersonation. On what evidence though? I mean I suppose you could have arrested him as an apostate mage in general but the specific evidence that Hawke (or anyone in game) had of his specific plot was vague. Though I suppose they could've pointed the Templars in the direction of the basement to find the bomb...
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 2, 2018 4:04:53 GMT
So much for not condemning them as people. I knew your response to my post on the last page was a lie. If DA2 was a better RPG that allowed more choices, it would not have been inevitable since Anders would have been arrested or killed before he did his Guy Fawkes impersonation. On what evidence though? I mean I suppose you could have arrested him as an apostate mage in general but the specific evidence that Hawke (or anyone in game) had of his specific plot was vague. Though I suppose they could've pointed the Templars in the direction of the basement to find the bomb... Simply telling the Templars he isn't with you anymore would have been enough, since his affiliation with the Champion of Kirkwall is all that keeps him out of the Gallows for the time between Act 2 and 3. You can even report him in the game, but because of David Gaider forcing these choices on you nothing happens.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 2, 2018 4:10:57 GMT
They are able to leave, nobody will pursue them. This is a choice. If you don't say a word against the oppression, you're a part of the oppression, yes.Again: never ever I celebrated the death. But I agree that the deaths were inevitable. So much for not condemning them as people. I knew your response to my post on the last page was a lie. If DA2 was a better RPG that allowed more choices, it would not have been inevitable since Anders would have been arrested or killed before he did his Guy Fawkes impersonation. It would be inevitable. You know, that Meredith was lunatic. Not the Chantry would explode – but the nobles would rebel (with much innocent civils too...) And if the nobles aren't, then Meredith would Annul the Circle. She was lunatic. She unleashed – sooner or later she begins to commit massacres. She was an "abomination" – the sword possessed her mind.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 2, 2018 4:17:13 GMT
So much for not condemning them as people. I knew your response to my post on the last page was a lie.
If DA2 was a better RPG that allowed more choices, it would not have been inevitable since Anders would have been arrested or killed before he did his Guy Fawkes impersonation. It would be inevitable. You know, that Meredith was lunatic. Not the Chantry would explode – but the nobles would rebel (with much innocent civils too...) And if the nobles aren't, then Meredith would Annul the Circle. She was lunatic. She unleashed – sooner or later she begins to commit massacres. She was an "abomination" – the sword possessed her mind. Considering she was being investigated by the Chantry via Leliana, I disagree that a violent rebellion was inevitable. Though it is kind of ironic how if it wasn't for Anders Meredith would never have gotten the Red Lyrium idol. Everything she does after that is in a way partly his fault.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 2, 2018 4:18:03 GMT
ugh I hate that exchange. And because it's unfortunately in the game it unfortunately has to be canon that Cullen is such a dipshit.
Cassandra, why did you make him the Inquisition's commander Yeah. If it was never going to go anywhere and everything would still happen the same, why have it in the game at all in the first place?
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Post by Catilina on Aug 2, 2018 4:23:15 GMT
It would be inevitable. You know, that Meredith was lunatic. Not the Chantry would explode – but the nobles would rebel (with much innocent civils too...) And if the nobles aren't, then Meredith would Annul the Circle. She was lunatic. She unleashed – sooner or later she begins to commit massacres. She was an "abomination" – the sword possessed her mind. Considering she was being investigated by the Chantry via Leliana, I disagree that a violent rebellion was inevitable. Though it is kind of ironic how if it wasn't for Anders Meredith would never have gotten the Red Lyrium idol. Everything she does after that is in a way partly his fault. She was NOT investigated by the Chantry. The Resolutionist presence were. Cassandra admitted, the Seekers committed a big mistake. Leliana spoke about that a possible mage rebellion and blood mages, not a possible Templar crime. Nobody cares about Meredith.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 2, 2018 4:27:48 GMT
ugh I hate that exchange. And because it's unfortunately in the game it unfortunately has to be canon that Cullen is such a dipshit.
Cassandra, why did you make him the Inquisition's commander Yeah. If it was never going to go anywhere and everything would still happen the same, why have it in the game at all in the first place? Because not the same, if Meredith destroys the city doesn't cause a mage rebellion; if the nobles rebel against Meredith just would cause a big bloodshed – and the Chantry would consider the whole Kirkwall as the enemy (my Hawke would take it, of course) – but this also wouldn't cause a dedicated mage rebellion. In this case: Anders was blamed, and the Circle rebelled. And anyway, according to the game, Anders made the rebellion, and I love that version – while my Hawke would be happy to rush the Gallow with the nobles. (I hoped we can free the mages, and Hawke would start the rebellion – but Anders was great.)
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 2, 2018 4:32:16 GMT
Considering she was being investigated by the Chantry via Leliana, I disagree that a violent rebellion was inevitable.
Though it is kind of ironic how if it wasn't for Anders Meredith would never have gotten the Red Lyrium idol. Everything she does after that is in a way partly his fault. She was NOT investigated by the Chantry. The Resolutionist presence were. Cassandra admitted, the Seekers committed a big mistake. Leliana spoke about that a possible mage rebellion and blood mages, not a possible Templar crime. Nobody cares about Meredith. In Dragon Age: Asunder it talks about how the Divine was investigating the treatment of the mages, including Meredith in Kirkwall.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 2, 2018 4:34:57 GMT
She was NOT investigated by the Chantry. The Resolutionist presence were. Cassandra admitted, the Seekers committed a big mistake. Leliana spoke about that a possible mage rebellion and blood mages, not a possible Templar crime. Nobody cares about Meredith. In Dragon Age: Asunder it talks about how the Divine was investigating the treatment of the mages, including Meredith in Kirkwall. Then why Leliana didn't mention, And why Cassandra felt guilty? And when the book mentioned it? An investigation happened, but not against Meredith.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 2, 2018 4:35:23 GMT
Yeah. If it was never going to go anywhere and everything would still happen the same, why have it in the game at all in the first place? Because not the same, if Meredith destroys the city doesn't cause a mage rebellion; if the nobles rebel against Meredith just would cause a big bloodshed – and the Chantry would consider the whole Kirkwall as the enemy (my Hawke would take it, of course) – but this also wouldn't cause a dedicated mage rebellion. In this case: Anders was blamed, and the Circle rebelled. And anyway, according to the game, Anders made the rebellion, and I love that version – while my Hawke would be happy to rush the Gallow with the nobles. (I hoped we can free the mages, and Hawke would start the rebellion – but Anders was great.) They still could have had Anders do it. Just have a quest or scene where the Templars try to apprehend him but somehow he gets away and then shows up during his terrorist scene. Sort of like how he does if you kick him out in Act 2. Yes the actual events don't change, but the layers behind it does in a way that better supports roleplaying. As it was, either Hawke supports mass murder wholeheartedly or has to be played as an idiot.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 2, 2018 4:39:36 GMT
In Dragon Age: Asunder it talks about how the Divine was investigating the treatment of the mages, including Meredith in Kirkwall. Then why Leliana didn't mention, And why Cassandra felt guilty? And when the book mentioned it? An investigation happened, but not against Meredith. Why should Leliana mention anything to Hawke? The only reason she mentions the stuff she does is most likely just since those were the individuals they encountered. Anything else is classified. A lot of people feel guilty in hindsight, thinking they could have done more to stop something terrible from happening. Cassandra is such a person, as we've seen before. I don't have the exact page number, but the book talks about how this investigation started shortly after she became Divine which is before the finale of DA2.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 2, 2018 4:40:51 GMT
Because not the same, if Meredith destroys the city doesn't cause a mage rebellion; if the nobles rebel against Meredith just would cause a big bloodshed – and the Chantry would consider the whole Kirkwall as the enemy (my Hawke would take it, of course) – but this also wouldn't cause a dedicated mage rebellion. In this case: Anders was blamed, and the Circle rebelled. And anyway, according to the game, Anders made the rebellion, and I love that version – while my Hawke would be happy to rush the Gallow with the nobles. (I hoped we can free the mages, and Hawke would start the rebellion – but Anders was great.) They still could have had Anders do it. Just have a quest or scene where the Templars try to apprehend him but somehow he gets away and then shows up during his terrorist scene. Sort of like how he does if you kick him out in Act 2. Yes the actual events don't change, but the layers behind it does in a way that better supports roleplaying. As it was, either Hawke supports mass murder wholeheartedly or has to be played as an idiot. Embrace the madness! I love it. This is Kirkwall! – And Hawke's the hero, whom Kirkwall deserves! Now seriously: One man can't fix everything – this story about it, the things sometimes just happens.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 2, 2018 4:42:51 GMT
They still could have had Anders do it. Just have a quest or scene where the Templars try to apprehend him but somehow he gets away and then shows up during his terrorist scene. Sort of like how he does if you kick him out in Act 2. Yes the actual events don't change, but the layers behind it does in a way that better supports roleplaying. As it was, either Hawke supports mass murder wholeheartedly or has to be played as an idiot. Embrace the madness! I love it. This is Kirkwall! – And Hawke's the hero, whom Kirkwall deserves! Now seriously: One man can't fix everything – this story about it, the things sometimes just happens. Then they shouldn't have done it the way they did and railroad us into being party to what they knew was going to be a controversial scene. Have Anders never come to ask Hawke for help with his bomb and instead have us be as shocked as everyone else including Hawke is.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 2, 2018 4:49:47 GMT
Embrace the madness! I love it. This is Kirkwall! – And Hawke's the hero, whom Kirkwall deserves! Now seriously: One man can't fix everything – this story about it, the things sometimes just happens. Then they shouldn't have done it the way they did and railroad us into being party to what they knew was going to be a controversial scene. Have Anders never come to ask Hawke for help with his bomb and instead have us be as shocked as everyone else including Hawke is. They wanted to create some drama – and make Hawke feel guilty/involved... This was perfect with all of the flaws. I love it, especially because of the rebellion. And my favourite little part of the Inquisition, when Hawke says: they helped in the Circles to rebel. I felt: Hawke's choices mattered. And it's so romantic!
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 2, 2018 4:51:29 GMT
Then they shouldn't have done it the way they did and railroad us into being party to what they knew was going to be a controversial scene. Have Anders never come to ask Hawke for help with his bomb and instead have us be as shocked as everyone else including Hawke is. They wanted to create some drama – and make Hawke feel guilty/involved... This was perfect with all of the flaws. I love it, especially because of the rebellion. And my favourite little part of the Inquisition, when Hawke says: they helped in the Circles to rebel. I felt: Hawke's choices mattered. It was railroading like that and elsewhere that makes DA2 easily my least favorite DA game by a long shot. There are only a few things that came of it that didn't make it a complete waste of time and money.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 2, 2018 5:03:01 GMT
They still could have had Anders do it. Just have a quest or scene where the Templars try to apprehend him but somehow he gets away and then shows up during his terrorist scene. Sort of like how he does if you kick him out in Act 2. Yes the actual events don't change, but the layers behind it does in a way that better supports roleplaying. As it was, either Hawke supports mass murder wholeheartedly or has to be played as an idiot. Embrace the madness! I love it. This is Kirkwall! – And Hawke's the hero, whom Kirkwall deserves! Now seriously: One man can't fix everything – this story about it, the things sometimes just happens. I rather do enjoy the idea of having the hero Kirkwall deserve be a cackling mad joker type.
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Post by shechinah on Aug 2, 2018 14:04:07 GMT
I- are you serious?
Eight-legged horse of Odin, are you seriously comparing the Circles to the nazi concentration camps? I'm not sure it's an entirely invalid comparison, even if it does ignore the very relevant difference that mages really are dangerous. But I'd assumed he was talking about the US's internment camps. The ones we imprisoned Japanese people in because we perceived them as a danger, even without actual evidence that they were. (The ones I really don't like thinking about much. ) Again: not an entirely invalid comparison, even if it does ignore the crucial fact that Japanese people aren't really dangerous, and mages... are. I hold that it is still not comparable. I grant that there are some similarities between the US concentration camps and the Circles but quite a few conditions differ and the way they do is very significant to any comparison. Here's some examples on where the Circles and the US internment camps differ: • The apprentice quarters are spacious. In the internment camp, a barrack was shared between five to six families. The apprentice quarters also contain furniture like desks and personal cupboards, something the aforementioned families had to build themselves out of lumber stolen from scrap piles in the dark of the night. These piles were guarded during the day by armed men. • The baths in the apprentice quarters have room dividers between them to allow privacy, something the people in the internment camp did not have. They were expected to bathe and do their business without any privacy. • After completing the Harrowing, a mage is upgraded to private rooms which are spacious and houses a private bathtub and washing bowl. They are also given a double bed and allowed quite a lot of pillows it seems. • According to the source, her family used tin lids to cover holes in the walls and floors to keep out scorpion, mice and bugs. They also used newspaper to fill the cracks between the wall boards to try to keep sand from the frequent storms out. The temperatures could reach as high as 120 degrees and these people had no access to anything they could use to cool down. In the winter, they were issued a pot-bellied stove to keep warm but still had to use their issued winter coat as an extra bed cover because the nights were still freezing. • The source once mentions how a soldier shouted for an elderly man to halt. The man did not understand what it meant and so kept walking. He was shot dead. In my opinion, the Circles can be compared to things such as a gilded cage and a luxurious prison (with all that implies like abuse and rape) but not to things like concentration camps. By the way, I recommend checking out the website as a source. Chizuko Judy Sugita de Queiroz uses a series of watercolor pictures to tell about life in the US internment camps. They are quite lovely and it's interesting to hear about her experience. Source: www.artbychiz.com/campdays_docs/campdays01.html (Chizuko Judy Sugita de Queiroz tells about life in the US internment camps through a series of watercolor pictures)
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Post by shechinah on Aug 2, 2018 14:10:48 GMT
I feel I should also note that privacy was something not widely available to peasant families. The lack of complete privacy in both the apprentice and non-apprentice quarters is unusual to us but wouldn't be entirely uncommon during medieval times.
By the way, was I the only one amused by how Gamlen's house and Cyrion's house are, for some reason, rather luxurious in space despite supposedly being hovels?
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Post by shechinah on Aug 2, 2018 14:13:21 GMT
Perhaps you could then give an example of which internment camp you thought of when you wrote that? A nice luxury internment camp, I suppose. (No.) So not like an internment camp then.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 2, 2018 14:23:42 GMT
Why are people bringing up the "middle ages" as if that's at all relevant?
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Post by Catilina on Aug 2, 2018 14:29:16 GMT
I'm not sure it's an entirely invalid comparison, even if it does ignore the very relevant difference that mages really are dangerous. But I'd assumed he was talking about the US's internment camps. The ones we imprisoned Japanese people in because we perceived them as a danger, even without actual evidence that they were. (The ones I really don't like thinking about much. ) Again: not an entirely invalid comparison, even if it does ignore the crucial fact that Japanese people aren't really dangerous, and mages... are. It is still not comparable, in my opinion. I grant that there are some similarities between the US concentration camps and the Circles but the conditions differ significantly. I should also note that at least one of the similarities is positive: education which was apparently quite good according to a source who lived in the Arizona camp as a child. She's attended school before the camps were implemented so this wasn't a case of her never having known anything different. Here's some examples on where the Circles and the US internment camps differ: • The apprentice quarters are spacious. In the internment camp, a barrack was shared between five to six families. The apprentice quarters also contain furniture like desks and personal cupboards, something the aforementioned families had to build themselves out of lumber stolen from scrap piles in the dark of the night. These piles were guarded during the day by armed men. • The baths in the apprentice quarters have room dividers between them to allow privacy, something the people in the internment camp did not have. They were expected to bathe and do their business without any privacy. • After completing the Harrowing, a mage is upgraded to private rooms which are spacious and houses a private bathtub and washing bowl. They also have beds and are allowed quite a lot of pillows. • According to the source, her family used tin lids to cover holes in the walls and floors to keep out scorpion, mice and bugs. They also used newspaper to fill the cracks between the wall boards to try to keep sand from the frequent storms out. The temperatures could reach as high as 120 degrees and these people had no access to anything they could use to cool down. In the winter, they were issued a pot-bellied stove to keep warm but still had to use their issued winter coat as an extra bed cover because the nights were still freezing. • The source once mentions how a soldier shouted for an elderly man to halt. The man did not understand what it meant and so kept walking. He was shot dead. In my opinion, the Circles can be compared to things such as a gilded cage and a luxurious prison (with all that implies like abuse and rape) but not to things like concentration camps. Note: I feel I should also note that privacy was something that wasn't widely available to peasant families. With that in mind, the lack of complete privacy in both the apprentice and non-apprentice quarters wouldn't be as unusual to them as it is to us. By the way, was I the only one amused by how Gamlen's house and Cyrion's house are, for some reason, rather luxurious in space despite supposedly being hovels? Source: www.artbychiz.com/campdays_docs/campdays01.html (Chizuko Judy Sugita de Queiroz tells about life in the US internment camps through a series of watercolor pictures) I recommend checking them out. They are quite lovely and it's interesting to hear about her experience. 1. Most of the Circle Towers were prisons before. 2. The education's not a selfless gift – the mages are dangerous and even useful. 3. Bunk beds, without separation? It's no privacy. 4. The mages don't have a key to their cells (and no, these aren't spacious rooms) – I didn't even saw a door on these in the Kinloch Hold, and in the Gallows and in the White Spire the templars locked them in their cells, if they thought the mages are in too rebellious mood. 5. Did you saw the calls in the basement? Cole, Anders, Rhys were closed in such a cell – or similar. 6. They can't have a family – and the love is forbidden/not recommended. A peasant can have family and love – even Fenris and Varania spoke about their family... and Orana. (No, I don't want to say, the slavery's better.) 7. Golden cage still a cage – and I wouldn't classify in luxury category such a place where rapes, lobotomizes etc happens. By the way: there are luxury slaves too – but this fact doesn't make the slavery acceptable. (That internment camps were temporary – if I know well. The Circles for a life.)
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Post by Catilina on Aug 2, 2018 14:30:22 GMT
Why are people bringing up the "middle ages" as if that's at all relevant? Because people think, the freedom is a modern idea...
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Post by shechinah on Aug 2, 2018 14:37:28 GMT
Why are people bringing up the "middle ages" as if that's at all relevant? Because Dragon Age uses a fantasy setting heavily inspired by medieval times or at least, the common perception of what the medieval times were like. That becomes relevant when it comes to subjects such as the lack of physical privacy in the Circles because whereas today, it would be seen as denying someone a basic right and done to degrade them, it would not be seen as unusual in that "time". Cyrion's house seem to demonstrate this. As such, the lack of complete privacy that mages experience is not the result of dehumanization by the Chantry but just a result of the times they live in.
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Post by shechinah on Aug 2, 2018 14:38:24 GMT
Because people think, the freedom is a modern idea... Was that addressed at me?
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