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Post by duskwanderer on Aug 10, 2018 10:17:13 GMT
I'm not sure that Vivienne will be as militant as some are saying. She enjoys politics too much, and politics isn't useful in a holy war. Particularly since Viv would be aware of the dangers of the Qun. I don't think she'd fight an open war, no. Not unless one broke out for reasons beyond her control, and it was either fight back or capitulate. I am worried about what she would do, however, and having control of the Inquisition would make whatever it was easier. And what -could- she do that would be so objectionable? I have my issues with her, but she is not stupid.
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Post by xerrai on Aug 10, 2018 13:21:00 GMT
I don't think she'd fight an open war, no. Not unless one broke out for reasons beyond her control, and it was either fight back or capitulate. I am worried about what she would do, however, and having control of the Inquisition would make whatever it was easier. And what -could- she do that would be so objectionable? I have my issues with her, but she is not stupid. She's not dumb and she's not without her principles. She may be a 'tyrant' by Cassandra's words, but she still has sympathetic beliefs. For instance, she does not believe in the pointless death of people, even if they are commoners. She believes in giving credit where it is due (mostly) and holds no disillusion that the nobles of Orlais are by and large selfish and are guided by thier ambition than any noble character. If Vivienne is to do anything with the potential/future qunari invasion, then indirect bullying comes to mind. If she cannot rally a unified front against the qunari by diplomacy then she can overtly or not so overtly (with her potential Inquisition forces) exert pressure of choice leaders in certain countries to strong arm them into joining her cause or supporting her views. Possibly even dissuade any qunari interference. The obvious objection here though is that this opens up (even more than it already was) the Chantry/Divine Guard into being political players rather than simply advocates and protectors of the faithful.
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Post by duskwanderer on Aug 10, 2018 20:52:56 GMT
And what -could- she do that would be so objectionable? I have my issues with her, but she is not stupid. She's not dumb and she's not without her principles. She may be a 'tyrant' by Cassandra's words, but she still has sympathetic beliefs. For instance, she does not believe in the pointless death of people, even if they are commoners. She believes in giving credit where it is due (mostly) and holds no disillusion that the nobles of Orlais are by and large selfish and are guided by thier ambition than any noble character. If Vivienne is to do anything with the potential/future qunari invasion, then indirect bullying comes to mind. If she cannot rally a unified front against the qunari by diplomacy then she can overtly or not so overtly (with her potential Inquisition forces) exert pressure of choice leaders in certain countries to strong arm them into joining her cause or supporting her views. Possibly even dissuade any qunari interference. The obvious objection here though is that this opens up (even more than it already was) the Chantry/Divine Guard into being political players rather than simply advocates and protectors of the faithful. I'm not sure diplomacy is even possible with the Qun, particularly since the Qun is actively working against the south even if they are allied with the Inquisition. The Inquisition is a force of political power, given the heavy involvement of the Chantry of Thedas, regardless of the Divine.
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Post by xerrai on Aug 10, 2018 23:24:53 GMT
[...] If Vivienne is to do anything with the potential/future qunari invasion, then indirect bullying comes to mind. If she cannot rally a unified front against the qunari by diplomacy then she can overtly or not so overtly (with her potential Inquisition forces) exert pressure of choice leaders in certain countries to strong arm them into joining her cause or supporting her views. Possibly even dissuade any qunari interference. The obvious objection here though is that this opens up (even more than it already was) the Chantry/Divine Guard into being political players rather than simply advocates and protectors of the faithful. I'm not sure diplomacy is even possible with the Qun, particularly since the Qun is actively working against the south even if they are allied with the Inquisition. The Inquisition is a force of political power, given the heavy involvement of the Chantry of Thedas, regardless of the Divine. I was actually referring to other nations of southern thedas like Orlais and the Free Marches, not Par Vollen itself. I was thinking more along the lines of encouraging certain sanctions against the qunari, discouraging key nobles from hiring elven staff (since they could be ben-hassrath) or, if she was serious about the exalted marches, ensuring that all southern countries participate instead of just one or two. And while I don't disagree with the Inquisition bit, it is to my understanding that after the Exalted Council this may not be as true anymore. But either way, the Chantry and all of its affiliates are expected to be relatively neutral in politics. Only concerning itself with matters concerning the faith and magic. With political matters only to be used in matters concerning that faith or social matters. But we all know that is lip service by this point (Divine Beatrix has obvious Orlesian bias, and Cassandra noted the obvious lack of faith in recent years). Still though, of all of the Divines, Vivienne is the one most likely to encourage the Chantry in being a tool used for personal ends instead of discouraging it.
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Post by duskwanderer on Aug 10, 2018 23:54:26 GMT
I'm not sure diplomacy is even possible with the Qun, particularly since the Qun is actively working against the south even if they are allied with the Inquisition. The Inquisition is a force of political power, given the heavy involvement of the Chantry of Thedas, regardless of the Divine. I was actually referring to other nations of southern thedas like Orlais and the Free Marches, not Par Vollen itself. I was thinking more along the lines of encouraging certain sanctions against the qunari, discouraging key nobles from hiring elven staff (since they could be ben-hassrath) or, if she was serious about the exalted marches, ensuring that all southern countries participate instead of just one or two. And while I don't disagree with the Inquisition bit, it is to my understanding that after the Exalted Council this may not be as true anymore. But either way, the Chantry and all of its affiliates are expected to be relatively neutral in politics. Only concerning itself with matters concerning the faith and magic. With political matters only to be used in matters concerning that faith or social matters. But we all know that is lip service by this point (Divine Beatrix has obvious Orlesian bias, and Cassandra noted the obvious lack of faith in recent years). Still though, of all of the Divines, Vivienne is the one most likely to encourage the Chantry in being a tool used for personal ends instead of discouraging it. That's a very modern tactic for a medieval setting. Plus, I'm not sure what "sanctions" would be valid: What commerce is done?
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Aug 11, 2018 0:24:48 GMT
I don't think she'd fight an open war, no. Not unless one broke out for reasons beyond her control, and it was either fight back or capitulate. I am worried about what she would do, however, and having control of the Inquisition would make whatever it was easier. And what -could- she do that would be so objectionable? I have my issues with her, but she is not stupid. I don't think she's stupid, I just... have my issues with her. I like a lot of what she's known to be doing, but between the fact that Cassandra does think Vivienne's too tyrannical to work for despite working fine with Leiliana (who has less in common with Cass politically than Vivienne does) and the fact that she sets a noble up to die for making a crack about her skin tone... I'm not sure I trust her with power.
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Post by xerrai on Aug 11, 2018 0:28:05 GMT
I was actually referring to other nations of southern thedas like Orlais and the Free Marches, not Par Vollen itself. I was thinking more along the lines of encouraging certain sanctions against the qunari, discouraging key nobles from hiring elven staff (since they could be ben-hassrath) or, if she was serious about the exalted marches, ensuring that all southern countries participate instead of just one or two. And while I don't disagree with the Inquisition bit, it is to my understanding that after the Exalted Council this may not be as true anymore. But either way, the Chantry and all of its affiliates are expected to be relatively neutral in politics. Only concerning itself with matters concerning the faith and magic. With political matters only to be used in matters concerning that faith or social matters. But we all know that is lip service by this point (Divine Beatrix has obvious Orlesian bias, and Cassandra noted the obvious lack of faith in recent years). Still though, of all of the Divines, Vivienne is the one most likely to encourage the Chantry in being a tool used for personal ends instead of discouraging it. That's a very modern tactic for a medieval setting. Plus, I'm not sure what "sanctions" would be valid: What commerce is done? I was generalizing in my examples of course, but battles for influence is hardly uncommon in this setting. Particularly in Orlais where nobles do it for eachother all the time. But against a relatively self-sustaining society like the qunari that is largely unmotivated by personal wealth things get considerably tricky. Still though, even the qunari engage in trade--though it is mostly to keep a relationship with outside nations or otherwise acquiring select items they simply can't recreate (like regional produce). More for the sake of research than need, really. Though I suppose there may be exceptions. 'Attacking' areas where the qunari exert influence, such as certain towns and settlements in Rivain, or influencing trade routes around places like Antiva, may not hurt the qunari but it could disrupt possible operations in the area. Hindering effective travel, making the qunari expend more resources, that type of thing. She could also do things like encourage qunari prejudice. Provided that she can influence key players, it can prove to be a hindrance to the Qunari, while potentially bolstering support for any future endeavor she may call later. I don't think it will be very effective, if at all, but it seems like something Vivienne may try since she isn't likely to try outright combat.
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Post by duskwanderer on Aug 11, 2018 1:50:52 GMT
And what -could- she do that would be so objectionable? I have my issues with her, but she is not stupid. I don't think she's stupid, I just... have my issues with her. I like a lot of what she's known to be doing, but between the fact that Cassandra does think Vivienne's too tyrannical to work for despite working fine with Leiliana (who has less in common with Cass politically than Vivienne does) and the fact that she sets a noble up to die for making a crack about her skin tone... I'm not sure I trust her with power. A crack on her skin tone? Are you referring to the dialogue that Cole mentions about her and Bastien? That doesn't sound like a crack on skin tone, but rather a comment on her appearance. Or, given the way Orlesians act, about her low birth.
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Post by duskwanderer on Aug 11, 2018 1:52:14 GMT
That's a very modern tactic for a medieval setting. Plus, I'm not sure what "sanctions" would be valid: What commerce is done? I was generalizing in my examples of course, but battles for influence is hardly uncommon in this setting. Particularly in Orlais where nobles do it for eachother all the time. But against a relatively self-sustaining society like the qunari that is largely unmotivated by personal wealth things get considerably tricky. Still though, even the qunari engage in trade--though it is mostly to keep a relationship with outside nations or otherwise acquiring select items they simply can't recreate (like regional produce). More for the sake of research than need, really. Though I suppose there may be exceptions. 'Attacking' areas where the qunari exert influence, such as certain towns and settlements in Rivain, or influencing trade routes around places like Antiva, may not hurt the qunari but it could disrupt possible operations in the area. Hindering effective travel, making the qunari expend more resources, that type of thing. She could also do things like encourage qunari prejudice. Provided that she can influence key players, it can prove to be a hindrance to the Qunari, while potentially bolstering support for any future endeavor she may call later. I don't think it will be very effective, if at all, but it seems like something Vivienne may try since she isn't likely to try outright combat. I could see her doing these things. But honestly, I don't see a problem with it. All of the qunari admit, in no uncertain terms, that they are enemies.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Aug 11, 2018 2:28:44 GMT
I don't think she's stupid, I just... have my issues with her. I like a lot of what she's known to be doing, but between the fact that Cassandra does think Vivienne's too tyrannical to work for despite working fine with Leiliana (who has less in common with Cass politically than Vivienne does) and the fact that she sets a noble up to die for making a crack about her skin tone... I'm not sure I trust her with power. A crack on her skin tone? Are you referring to the dialogue that Cole mentions about her and Bastien? That doesn't sound like a crack on skin tone, but rather a comment on her appearance. Or, given the way Orlesians act, about her low birth. Whichever of those it was, my point still stands: her reaction is really disporportionate.
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Post by duskwanderer on Aug 11, 2018 2:32:48 GMT
A crack on her skin tone? Are you referring to the dialogue that Cole mentions about her and Bastien? That doesn't sound like a crack on skin tone, but rather a comment on her appearance. Or, given the way Orlesians act, about her low birth. Whichever of those it was, my point still stands: her reaction is really disporportionate. Isn't Orlais the place where you kill someone if their servants have better manners or if you use the wrong fork at dinner?
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Aug 11, 2018 2:46:20 GMT
Whichever of those it was, my point still stands: her reaction is really disporportionate. Isn't Orlais the place where you kill someone if their servants have better manners or if you use the wrong fork at dinner? Yes, but why does that matter? That doesn't mean Vivienne should be trusted with power, rather it means that most upper-class Orlesians shouldn't be. Which is a shame, given that they have it and we can't take it, but that doesn't make it a good idea to elevate someone else who shares their values above them.
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Post by duskwanderer on Aug 11, 2018 3:12:50 GMT
Isn't Orlais the place where you kill someone if their servants have better manners or if you use the wrong fork at dinner? Yes, but why does that matter? That doesn't mean Vivienne should be trusted with power, rather it means that most upper-class Orlesians shouldn't be. Which is a shame, given that they have it and we can't take it, but that doesn't make it a good idea to elevate someone else who shares their values above them. They don't strike me as being as unworthy as anyone else in Thedas. Everyone there is insane.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Aug 11, 2018 3:17:05 GMT
Yes, but why does that matter? That doesn't mean Vivienne should be trusted with power, rather it means that most upper-class Orlesians shouldn't be. Which is a shame, given that they have it and we can't take it, but that doesn't make it a good idea to elevate someone else who shares their values above them. They don't strike me as being as unworthy as anyone else in Thedas. Everyone there is insane. To some degree. The place is a madhouse by design. But at least some people there try to wield whatever power they have reasonably responsibly, and for the benefit of others. I'm inclined to give them more when possible. (Well, when I'm not playing in my Chaotic Evil fuck-everything-up world-state... though I'm afraid I might have ruined it by putting the most Great-Game-hating, least crazy possible Divine in the top spot.)
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Post by duskwanderer on Aug 11, 2018 10:21:05 GMT
They don't strike me as being as unworthy as anyone else in Thedas. Everyone there is insane. To some degree. The place is a madhouse by design. But at least some people there try to wield whatever power they have reasonably responsibly, and for the benefit of others. I'm inclined to give them more when possible. (Well, when I'm not playing in my Chaotic Evil fuck-everything-up world-state... though I'm afraid I might have ruined it by putting the most Great-Game-hating, least crazy possible Divine in the top spot.) Harrowmont runs things like that, but he's utterly ineffective. So does a softened Leliana and it doesn't appear to be effective either. Ideals are lovely, but at some point you need to be effective. I've my issues with Viv, but she is effective provided the Inquisition and her are on good terms.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 11, 2018 13:43:50 GMT
It's what she excels at which is why I think she would make a good Empress of Orlais instead of Celene or Gaspard and not a good Divine. Technically being a mage should disqualify her from either position. Even before they started locking up mages in Circles the rule was that mages were not permitted in positions of power in their own right. It is, after all, the reason why they fell out with Tevinter. So for 900 years a mage could not be either Emperor/Empress of Orlais or Divine and then for no good reason at all, apart from the mage having the right connections, they made her Divine. I always imagined the Magisterium killing themselves with laughter over that one. The other reason Vivienne could never have been Empress is because she was not born nobility and of course is not a native of Orlais. Both these facts would disqualify her but particularly the lack of noble birth since Orlais does not subscribe to any idea of meritocracy when it comes to the elite positions of society; you must be born into the elite position and therefore rule by Divine Right of the Maker.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 11, 2018 14:06:10 GMT
It wasted work to build a dreadnought, what sank during the battle, but with its help, the army defeats the enemy? The Skyhold not even destroyed, only abandoned. It's already fulfilled the task.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 11, 2018 15:57:02 GMT
Italics: Was having the choice for Vivienne to become Divine a writers decision because she is a companion and many players would want that choice or was does it speak to Vivienne's political ability. Personally I feel it is principally the former. The writers thought it would be an interesting plot twist so ignored all previous lore in order to make it happen. They justified it with the latter explanation that her contacts and political ability made it happen but I still maintain it just isn't credible. You don't overturn such an established bit of religious and secular law so easily. Had she been a native of Orlais and the offspring of some leading noble with long standing influence in the Chantry, it might just about have been credible, but the foreign mistress of a noble who was favoured by Celene in being made Court Enchanter, no way. That is a very big leap. Bolded: That may be one of the problems with Orlais. History has shown what can happen when to a society if the ruler thinks they are above the law and above the people and that a higher power has given them that right because of lineage. It is the problem with Orlais but how the Empire became established in the first place. Drakon had a convenient vision from the Maker that justified everything he went on to do, including wiping out entire tribes and religious communities that wouldn't submit to his way of doing things. Then he absorbed the Inquisition into his Chantry, established control over all mages, and set up the Templars order to police it. Finally his son, backed by the Orlesian Chantry, wiped out all remaining credible opposition in the south in the form of the Dalish elves, all done in the Maker's name. You will note that most other nations, other than the Qun and Tevinter, are content to remain within their own borders, although of late Nevarra has been getting a bit above itself, but on the whole the empire builders are those who believe themselves to have either been given their lofty situation in life by their god (Orlais and Tevinter) or believe they are duty bound to spread their philosophy/religion for the benefit of all (Orlais and the Qun).
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Post by NotN7 on Aug 11, 2018 21:55:23 GMT
The Inquisition is either disbanded or reduced to the Divine's lackeys. All that work on building and expanding... and then it is gone. Does anyone else feel the same way, at least to some extent? To be honest No, the inquisition got to big to monitor, there were spies' running all over the place., when it came to the end of game you had no choice but to shrink it back down to a smaller manageable size, and since the chantry exists it works to hide under their skirts so to speak, but hey that's just me I'm waiting to see what happens
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Aug 12, 2018 1:30:45 GMT
To some degree. The place is a madhouse by design. But at least some people there try to wield whatever power they have reasonably responsibly, and for the benefit of others. I'm inclined to give them more when possible. (Well, when I'm not playing in my Chaotic Evil fuck-everything-up world-state... though I'm afraid I might have ruined it by putting the most Great-Game-hating, least crazy possible Divine in the top spot.) Harrowmont runs things like that, but he's utterly ineffective. So does a softened Leliana and it doesn't appear to be effective either. Ideals are lovely, but at some point you need to be effective. I've my issues with Viv, but she is effective provided the Inquisition and her are on good terms. Yes, but a hardened Leiliana runs things the way I described too. I'd argue that even hardened she goes too far in that direction, since I worry about what effects disbanding the Circles is going to have and she does that either way, but that I acknowledge that one can be too hesitant to do harm doesn't invalidate my point that a ruler should hesitate to do harm. One thing about what I'm arguing that it's important to understand is that I'm not advocating for rulers who can't bring themselves to engage in dirty business when they have to. I'm just arguing for rulers who have some sense of proportion and generally want to provide more comfort than they do harm, and that destroying someone over a mild insult is a bad sign as far as that goes. Also, while this isn't directly related to my point, are you sure Softened!Leiliana's methods aren't effective? I'd thought Morrigan said in the epilogue that her methods worked despite all the various reasons they shouldn't, and kind of lampshaded that she'd managed something that should not have worked at all.
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Post by duskwanderer on Aug 12, 2018 3:37:26 GMT
Harrowmont runs things like that, but he's utterly ineffective. So does a softened Leliana and it doesn't appear to be effective either. Ideals are lovely, but at some point you need to be effective. I've my issues with Viv, but she is effective provided the Inquisition and her are on good terms. Yes, but a hardened Leiliana runs things the way I described too. I'd argue that even hardened she goes too far in the direction, since I worry about what effects disbanding the Circles is going to have and she does that either way, but that I acknowledge that one can be too hesitant to do harm doesn't invalidate my point that a ruler should hesitate to do harm. One thing about what I'm arguing that it's important to understand is that I'm not advocating for rulers who can't bring themselves to engage in dirty business when they have to. I'm just arguing for rulers who have some sense of proportion and generally want to provide more comfort than they do harm, and that destroying someone over a mild insult is a bad sign as far as that goes. Also, while this isn't directly related to my point, are you sure Softened!Leiliana's methods aren't effective? I'd thought Morrigan said in the epilogue that her methods worked despite all the various reasons they shouldn't, and kind of lampshaded that she'd managed something that should not have worked at all. I've read through the softened Leliana's approach, and it feels like a very temporary thing. Plus, reading the Trespasser ending slides, I'm not sure she's doing what needs to be done.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 12, 2018 8:28:32 GMT
I've read through the softened Leliana's approach, and it feels like a very temporary thing. Plus, reading the Trespasser ending slides, I'm not sure she's doing what needs to be done. To my mind there is no difference in the outcome with Leliana, just the way she achieves it. The whole point about softened Leliana is that she does succeed in holding things together despite her non aggressive approach to doing this but it does seem rather too easy, with apparently no downside to it, which is odd given the setting. Naturally people prefer getting this Leliana, which is why they made it so difficult to do so in the first place without meta-knowledge because of that early first decision over the spy. What I took from the Trespasser epilogues is that the outcome under all the Divines tends to be the same in the end, at least so far as the mage situation is concerned. There is always a free College of Enchanters and a loyalist Circle of Magi no matter who is in the top spot. The main difference seems to lie in how the mages are monitored and control of the Templar Order, if it still exists. You could argue that Vivienne actually has more power and freedom of action if she isn't made Divine. I certainly feel that her becoming Grand Enchanter of the loyalist mages is the more credible outcome. When you think about it, if she had aspirations to the top position why didn't she manage to become Grand Enchanter instead of Fiona? The answer would seem to be that either she was uninterested in the affairs of the Circles once she had been made Court Enchanter or that the general mood among the mages was such that they preferred to vote in a radical like Fiona rather than traditionalist like Vivienne. Which is why I always assumed that her pushing for restoration of the Circles was aimed at her assuming the Grand Enchanter position once they had been because that seemed to be the logical position of power that she was aiming for, which would be acceptable to other traditionalists in the Chantry, not the Divine in defiance of all Chantry law. As for the political aspects of being Divine, none of them would openly or covertly antagonise the Qunari because everyone still clings to the hope that the Llomerryn Accord will prevent future hostility between them. The Qun know this which is why they are at pains to excuse the actions of both the Arishok and the Viddasala as unauthorised by the leadership so the Accord will be regarded as still being in place. Naturally they persist with this charade because it will prevent the south becoming involved in any action that takes place between the Qun and Tevinter, who never signed up to it. The Qun are not stupid. They know the history between Tevinter and the south, which is why the Llomerryn Accord is so useful to them. At the end of Trespasser, if there was an alliance with the Qun, they are even suggesting to the Divine that the south should aid them in their latest struggle. So if Vivienne is so politically astute, the last thing she is going to do is put the Llomerryn Accord at risk. What she would be more likely to do is keep the Qun dangling by suggesting she is giving serious consideration to their request without ever actually acting upon it, whilst she watches the progress of the war. Then she might make her own representations to the Black Divine to see whether she can gain concessions from him in return for her support. Playing off one side against the other is how a person adept at the Game would handle it.
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Post by duskwanderer on Aug 12, 2018 11:51:16 GMT
I've read through the softened Leliana's approach, and it feels like a very temporary thing. Plus, reading the Trespasser ending slides, I'm not sure she's doing what needs to be done. To my mind there is no difference in the outcome with Leliana, just the way she achieves it. The whole point about softened Leliana is that she does succeed in holding things together despite her non aggressive approach to doing this but it does seem rather too easy, with apparently no downside to it, which is odd given the setting. Naturally people prefer getting this Leliana, which is why they made it so difficult to do so in the first place without meta-knowledge because of that early first decision over the spy. What I took from the Trespasser epilogues is that the outcome under all the Divines tends to be the same in the end, at least so far as the mage situation is concerned. There is always a free College of Enchanters and a loyalist Circle of Magi no matter who is in the top spot. The main difference seems to lie in how the mages are monitored and control of the Templar Order, if it still exists. You could argue that Vivienne actually has more power and freedom of action if she isn't made Divine. I certainly feel that her becoming Grand Enchanter of the loyalist mages is the more credible outcome. When you think about it, if she had aspirations to the top position why didn't she manage to become Grand Enchanter instead of Fiona? The answer would seem to be that either she was uninterested in the affairs of the Circles once she had been made Court Enchanter or that the general mood among the mages was such that they preferred to vote in a radical like Fiona rather than traditionalist like Vivienne. Which is why I always assumed that her pushing for restoration of the Circles was aimed at her assuming the Grand Enchanter position once they had been because that seemed to be the logical position of power that she was aiming for, which would be acceptable to other traditionalists in the Chantry, not the Divine in defiance of all Chantry law. As for the political aspects of being Divine, none of them would openly or covertly antagonise the Qunari because everyone still clings to the hope that the Llomerryn Accord will prevent future hostility between them. The Qun know this which is why they are at pains to excuse the actions of both the Arishok and the Viddasala as unauthorised by the leadership so the Accord will be regarded as still being in place. Naturally they persist with this charade because it will prevent the south becoming involved in any action that takes place between the Qun and Tevinter, who never signed up to it. The Qun are not stupid. They know the history between Tevinter and the south, which is why the Llomerryn Accord is so useful to them. At the end of Trespasser, if there was an alliance with the Qun, they are even suggesting to the Divine that the south should aid them in their latest struggle. So if Vivienne is so politically astute, the last thing she is going to do is put the Llomerryn Accord at risk. What she would be more likely to do is keep the Qun dangling by suggesting she is giving serious consideration to their request without ever actually acting upon it, whilst she watches the progress of the war. Then she might make her own representations to the Black Divine to see whether she can gain concessions from him in return for her support. Playing off one side against the other is how a person adept at the Game would handle it. Bro, you're preaching to the choir on this, for the most part. That sounds exactly what Vivienne (or a hardened Leliana) would do. And I do think Viv would prefer to lead a Circle as the Grand Enchanter, but as I understand it, Fiona has been Grand Enchanter for a while. She might predate Vivienne's appointment as First Enchanter, which might be why she didn't make a move for the position. Though I'm not sure I agree with how you feel on softened Leliana.
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Honor is a fool's prize, glory is no use to the dead.
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Post by TheEmptyRoad on Aug 14, 2018 6:20:31 GMT
With Leliana as my choice for Divine, I'd say that since she doesn't restore the Templars or the Circle (even a Hardened Leliana - which is my canon, murderpope FTW) she kinda needs the Inquisition.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 14, 2018 12:13:03 GMT
With Leliana as my choice for Divine, I'd say that since she doesn't restore the Templars or the Circle (even a Hardened Leliana - which is my canon, murderpope FTW) she kinda needs the Inquisition. Yet she advises you to disband. I think she feels that the military and diplomatic side isn't needed and, even before the revelations from Solas, probably thinks the spy network should be slimmed down to more manageable proportions. We know that regardless of what you decide she continues to groom her successors so clearly, whether the Divine or not, is going to encourage that aspect to continue. The other reason she might wish it disbanded is that she doesn't want it to become part of the Chantry. She is too aware that she could be assassinated and then it becomes the tool of any new Divine. Also, that Orlais seem to want to control it via the Chantry. As a good Ferelden, she would likely feel it would be preferable not to give them the sort of power that the Inquisition enjoyed. All the Divines needed the Inquisition during the first two years after their ascension to the throne. Every outcome is poorer if the Divine is not on good terms with the Inquisitor. The Inquisition is around when Leliana is at her most vulunerable in order to back her initial reforms but after that clearly she feels confident that she can manage without them.
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