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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 6, 2019 19:00:51 GMT
Wiping out the last rachni in existence got a pass from the Council. Legal precedence would dictate that wiping out synthetics in order to save the galaxy would get a similar pass lol Sure, but Shepard's intent wasn't to wipe out all synthetics (unless you chose to destroy the geth, but even then it might have been the only available option to not have the quarians dead. The sole end for Shepard's behavior was the remove the Reapers as a threat. That can only happen if they don't exist.
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 6, 2019 19:01:44 GMT
You didn’t answer my post. Do you agree that under your own logic that Shepard should be executed if the picked Destroy because they engaged in genocide? That is a yes or no answer. No because there is no genocide when destroy is chosen. True. The composition of the Reapers are the liquid remains of the races murdered along the way.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2019 19:05:58 GMT
No because there is no genocide when destroy is chosen. True. The composition of the Reapers are the liquid remains of the races murdered along the way. Exactly! Genocide by its very definition doesn't apply towards the Reapers.
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 6, 2019 19:41:46 GMT
Wiping out the last rachni in existence got a pass from the Council. Legal precedence would dictate that wiping out synthetics in order to save the galaxy would get a similar pass lol Sure, but Shepard's intent wasn't to wipe out all synthetics (unless you chose to destroy the geth, but even then it might have been the only available option to not have the quarians dead. The sole end for Shepard's behavior was the remove the Reapers as a threat. That can only happen if they don't exist. Well mostly I was joking, but no court in the universe would even bat an eye at this. "The People v Cmdr Shepard. OK let's see here.....huh........OK reapers.......geth......uh-huh.....hmmmm." "Case dismissed."
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Post by cloud9 on Feb 6, 2019 20:19:05 GMT
That is why I doubt we will see a developer try and make a trilogy again like Mass Effect in the foreseeable future, people have generated expectations to the point of being unrealistic and if it doesn't turn out exactly as they believe it should they claim they know better and start to speak for everyone "objectively". Even if they make it so one person is happy there will be another taking their place and say the exact same points with the opposite outcome. Lol. A company with actual talent could pull it off. It's no secret that the ME trilogy was not planned. This is so obvious when you look at the writing in the 3 games, and more specifically the plot. You can LIKE the games all you want and certainly there are good things about them, but the writing is incredibly inconsistent, especially pertaining to the overarching plot. I did not have unrealistic expectations. I did not expect every choice to drastically impact the plot of the games or anything, I simply wanted them to have more of an impact than... next to nothing. Especially in a series that is advertised as being one where your choices matter. Also it is in no way 'too high of an expectation' to expect a well written plot, especially if it's a continuing story and the original installment had a great plot. If Bioware can get the writing for the characters down, why can't they write the plot well too? Thank you!!
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Post by ahglock on Feb 6, 2019 20:50:53 GMT
It's true. The endings left an indelible mark on the franchise that not even a full-on retcon could ever undo. I came to terms with Mass Effect being over with 3. Even though I really enjoyed Andromeda, it's clear that the Milky Way as a setting is over and done with. I've posted many times before that Bioware could, if they choose to, have a game take place after the events of ME3 with what the guy told the kid saying that the details have changed over time. Yes I know there will be people upset if Bioware were to go that route. I think they could and go with any ending with a few fluff lines here and there to explain how they got there. Though honestly the only ending that fit the stargazer scene to me was a low to mid range destroy pick. Anything else it wouldn't be legend it would be history in stored computer data.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 6, 2019 21:14:13 GMT
ahglock Going with hypotheticals is a dangerous road. For example maybe with the Reapers gone a new threat arrives which is even worse where if the Reapers were still around we would be able to defend ourselves. I do agree that it is a viable choice and it doesn't make people those insults. I wasn't even really arguing against Destroy, just the chain of logic dmc posted. Speaking of... dmc1001 If that's your answer then yes it absolutely is hypocrisy. You aren't following your own argument, going against it when it suits you. KaiserShep People said the same thing about things like the firebombing of Dresden, Tokyo, etc. Doesn't make those right either. But anyway, it is clear that none of you will change your minds about this so no reason to continue.
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 6, 2019 21:36:31 GMT
ahglock Going with hypotheticals is a dangerous road. For example maybe with the Reapers gone a new threat arrives which is even worse where if the Reapers were still around we would be able to defend ourselves. I do agree that it is a viable choice and it doesn't make people those insults. I wasn't even really arguing against Destroy, just the chain of logic dmc posted. Speaking of... dmc1001 If that's your answer then yes it absolutely is hypocrisy. You aren't following your own argument, going against it when it suits you. KaiserShep People said the same thing about things like the firebombing of Dresden, Tokyo, etc. Doesn't make those right either. But anyway, it is clear that none of you will change your minds about this so no reason to continue. Hypocritical? Possibly. Morally correct? Definitely. Ethically correct? For sure.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 6, 2019 21:46:08 GMT
ahglock Going with hypotheticals is a dangerous road. For example maybe with the Reapers gone a new threat arrives which is even worse where if the Reapers were still around we would be able to defend ourselves. I do agree that it is a viable choice and it doesn't make people those insults. I wasn't even really arguing against Destroy, just the chain of logic dmc posted. Speaking of... dmc1001 If that's your answer then yes it absolutely is hypocrisy. You aren't following your own argument, going against it when it suits you. KaiserShep People said the same thing about things like the firebombing of Dresden, Tokyo, etc. Doesn't make those right either. But anyway, it is clear that none of you will change your minds about this so no reason to continue. Hypocritical? Possibly. Morally correct? Definitely. Ethically correct? For sure. Killing innocent beings is never morally or ethically correct.
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 6, 2019 21:52:41 GMT
ahglock Going with hypotheticals is a dangerous road. For example maybe with the Reapers gone a new threat arrives which is even worse where if the Reapers were still around we would be able to defend ourselves. I do agree that it is a viable choice and it doesn't make people those insults. I wasn't even really arguing against Destroy, just the chain of logic dmc posted. Speaking of... dmc1001 If that's your answer then yes it absolutely is hypocrisy. You aren't following your own argument, going against it when it suits you. KaiserShep People said the same thing about things like the firebombing of Dresden, Tokyo, etc. Doesn't make those right either. But anyway, it is clear that none of you will change your minds about this so no reason to continue. I didn't really stress on whether or not it was actually right or wrong (just the legal side of it), but I don't think this is an entirely fair comparison. After all, the geth were not so much a strategic target but rather hostage to a dilemma involving an existential threat to all of civilization, and a factor that shouldn't be forgotten in this is suicide, which is the requirement to facilitate the other 2 choices. Heroic sacrifice is nice and all, but if I was gonna kill myself to save the universe, I wouldn't do it to leave any remnant of the enemy intact, or worse, imbue it with my own consciousness to be civilization's Overlord or magically alter the entire Galaxy against its will. If we're going to talk about morality and ethics, those things can't be glossed over. All we have is what the enemy combatant tells us, but little reason beyond having absolutely no other options to really follow anything it says.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2019 22:02:54 GMT
ahglock Going with hypotheticals is a dangerous road. For example maybe with the Reapers gone a new threat arrives which is even worse where if the Reapers were still around we would be able to defend ourselves. I do agree that it is a viable choice and it doesn't make people those insults. I wasn't even really arguing against Destroy, just the chain of logic dmc posted. Speaking of... dmc1001 If that's your answer then yes it absolutely is hypocrisy. You aren't following your own argument, going against it when it suits you. KaiserShep People said the same thing about things like the firebombing of Dresden, Tokyo, etc. Doesn't make those right either. But anyway, it is clear that none of you will change your minds about this so no reason to continue. I didn't really stress on whether or not it was actually right or wrong (just the legal side of it), but I don't think this is an entirely fair comparison. After all, the geth were not so much a strategic target but rather hostage to a dilemma involving an existential threat to all of civilization, and a factor that shouldn't be forgotten in this is suicide, which is the requirement to facilitate the other 2 choices. Heroic sacrifice is nice and all, but if I was gonna kill myself to save the universe, I wouldn't do it to leave any remnant of the enemy intact, or worse, imbue it with my own consciousness to be civilization's Overlord or magically alter the entire Galaxy against its will. If we're going to talk about morality and ethics, those things can't be glossed over. All we have is what the enemy combatant tells us, but little reason beyond having absolutely no other options to really follow anything it says. The big issue I have with the Geth is that even if you paragon them Legion tells you that they will evolve on their own terms...but then they upgrade with reaper tech . At this point you have no logical reason to believe that they haven't been compromised by the Reapers without meta gaming. Everything (sentient) that has been upgraded by the Reapers has been corrupted. For all we know (given the internal history of the games) the Geth are just tools for the Reapers. This was instilled all the way back in ME1 with Saren...
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 6, 2019 22:03:57 GMT
I didn't really stress on whether or not it was actually right or wrong (just the legal side of it), but I don't think this is an entirely fair comparison. After all, the geth were not so much a strategic target but rather hostage to a dilemma involving an existential threat to all of civilization, and a factor that shouldn't be forgotten in this is suicide, which is the requirement to facilitate the other 2 choices. Heroic sacrifice is nice and all, but if I was gonna kill myself to save the universe, I wouldn't do it to leave any remnant of the enemy intact, or worse, imbue it with my own consciousness to be civilization's Overlord or magically alter the entire Galaxy against its will. If we're going to talk about morality and ethics, those things can't be glossed over. All we have is what the enemy combatant tells us, but little reason beyond having absolutely no other options to really follow anything it says. The big issue I have with the Geth is that even if you paragon them Legion tells you that they will evolve on their own terms...but then they upgrade with reaper tech . At this point you have no logical reason to believe that they haven't been compromised by the Reapers without meta gaming. Everything (sentient) that has been upgraded by the Reapers has been corrupted. For all we know (given the internal history of the games) the Geth are just tools for the Reapers. This was instilled all the way back in ME1 with Saren... What about EDI?
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 6, 2019 22:06:43 GMT
I didn't really stress on whether or not it was actually right or wrong (just the legal side of it), but I don't think this is an entirely fair comparison. After all, the geth were not so much a strategic target but rather hostage to a dilemma involving an existential threat to all of civilization, and a factor that shouldn't be forgotten in this is suicide, which is the requirement to facilitate the other 2 choices. Heroic sacrifice is nice and all, but if I was gonna kill myself to save the universe, I wouldn't do it to leave any remnant of the enemy intact, or worse, imbue it with my own consciousness to be civilization's Overlord or magically alter the entire Galaxy against its will. If we're going to talk about morality and ethics, those things can't be glossed over. All we have is what the enemy combatant tells us, but little reason beyond having absolutely no other options to really follow anything it says. The big issue I have with the Geth is that even if you paragon them Legion tells you that they will evolve on their own terms...but then they upgrade with reaper tech . At this point you have no logical reason to believe that they haven't been compromised by the Reapers without meta gaming. Everything (sentient) that has been upgraded by the Reapers has been corrupted. For all we know (given the internal history of the games) the Geth are just tools for the Reapers. This was instilled all the way back in ME1 with Saren... I would've given the Geth the benefit of the doubt all the way through had it not been for that shitty hostage choice in the end, but I guess it would've been way too easy without it. But just the same, every moment we're standing around there, whole swaths of people are getting incinerated by reaper death rays. Just about any choice that stops them cold is basically correct. This probably doesn't make it any better, but the geth were technically not corrupted by the reapers in the sense that they were hijacked. They actively chose to side with them to escape the Quarians. The actual upgrades they received made them stronger, but it didn't change their intentions.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2019 22:08:44 GMT
The big issue I have with the Geth is that even if you paragon them Legion tells you that they will evolve on their own terms...but then they upgrade with reaper tech . At this point you have no logical reason to believe that they haven't been compromised by the Reapers without meta gaming. Everything (sentient) that has been upgraded by the Reapers has been corrupted. For all we know (given the internal history of the games) the Geth are just tools for the Reapers. This was instilled all the way back in ME1 with Saren... What about EDI? The same applies. I took a hard line stance against it...
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 6, 2019 22:11:29 GMT
I could take or leave the geth, but EDI's fate always made me a bit salty. I hate Control and Synthesis more than I hate her demise, however. Basically all routes lead to misery.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 6, 2019 22:11:38 GMT
The same applies. I took a hard line stance against it... No, I meant she was a sentient being that was upgraded by Reaper tech via pieces of Sovereign yet she was never corrupted by them. Technically she was upgraded by them twice since I imagine her body employed Reaper tech in some way as well.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 6, 2019 22:14:51 GMT
ahglock Going with hypotheticals is a dangerous road. For example maybe with the Reapers gone a new threat arrives which is even worse where if the Reapers were still around we would be able to defend ourselves. I do agree that it is a viable choice and it doesn't make people those insults. I wasn't even really arguing against Destroy, just the chain of logic dmc posted. Speaking of... dmc1001 If that's your answer then yes it absolutely is hypocrisy. You aren't following your own argument, going against it when it suits you. KaiserShep People said the same thing about things like the firebombing of Dresden, Tokyo, etc. Doesn't make those right either. But anyway, it is clear that none of you will change your minds about this so no reason to continue. I didn't really stress on whether or not it was actually right or wrong (just the legal side of it), but I don't think this is an entirely fair comparison. After all, the geth were not so much a strategic target but rather hostage to a dilemma involving an existential threat to all of civilization, and a factor that shouldn't be forgotten in this is suicide, which is the requirement to facilitate the other 2 choices. Heroic sacrifice is nice and all, but if I was gonna kill myself to save the universe, I wouldn't do it to leave any remnant of the enemy intact, or worse, imbue it with my own consciousness to be civilization's Overlord or magically alter the entire Galaxy against its will. If we're going to talk about morality and ethics, those things can't be glossed over. All we have is what the enemy combatant tells us, but little reason beyond having absolutely no other options to really follow anything it says. So to use your analogy, you would kill the hostages in a situation if it meant stopping say the tyrant? I'm assuming you sacrifice the scientists on Asteroid 57 to stop Balak for example?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2019 22:17:30 GMT
The big issue I have with the Geth is that even if you paragon them Legion tells you that they will evolve on their own terms...but then they upgrade with reaper tech . At this point you have no logical reason to believe that they haven't been compromised by the Reapers without meta gaming. Everything (sentient) that has been upgraded by the Reapers has been corrupted. For all we know (given the internal history of the games) the Geth are just tools for the Reapers. This was instilled all the way back in ME1 with Saren... I would've given the Geth the benefit of the doubt all the way through had it not been for that shitty hostage choice in the end, but I guess it would've been way too easy without it. But just the same, every moment we're standing around there, whole swaths of people are getting incinerated by reaper death rays. Just about any choice that stops them cold is basically correct. This probably doesn't make it any better, but the geth were technically not corrupted by the reapers in the sense that they were hijacked. They actively chose to side with them to escape the Quarians. The actual upgrades they received made them stronger, but it didn't change their intentions. Without meta gaming we have no clue to their intentions though. I went off what was presented in game in determining my cause of action. Once it upgraded I looked at them the same way as the Reapers. But determining what to do comes down to the individual so I can't say your decision (or any others) was right or wrong. Only my own...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2019 22:20:42 GMT
The same applies. I took a hard line stance against it... No, I meant she was a sentient being that was upgraded by Reaper tech via pieces of Sovereign yet she was never corrupted by them. Technically she was upgraded by them twice since I imagine her body employed Reaper tech in some way as well. Again, without meta gaming this is something we can't know. As the Reapers got closer she could have switched for any number of reasons. Look at what happened to TIM. I really hated what the did to him (writing wise) but It makes sense in game that it would come about.
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 6, 2019 22:24:10 GMT
Wiping out the last rachni in existence got a pass from the Council. Legal precedence would dictate that wiping out synthetics in order to save the galaxy would get a similar pass lol Sure, but Shepard's intent wasn't to wipe out all synthetics (unless you chose to destroy the geth, but even then it might have been the only available option to not have the quarians dead. The sole end for Shepard's behavior was the remove the Reapers as a threat. That can only happen if they don't exist. Well that was kind of a joke, but if the geth made it as far as Priority: Earth, it's easy enough to assume that what happens to them is just a massive snafu in the Crucible. I mean, it sends a giant energy wave throughout the galaxy. If certain technologies don't make it, no one's going to just say "OH man Shepard killed the geth." "No, Project Crucible did. Oh well, dead reapers is what we got."
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 6, 2019 22:29:16 GMT
True. The composition of the Reapers are the liquid remains of the races murdered along the way. Exactly! Genocide by its very definition doesn't apply towards the Reapers. Why doesn't it? "Because I really want them dead " is a valid answer for certain definitions of genocide, of course. I agree that the Citadel races would define genocide in whatever manner was necessary to let Shepard off the legal hook. But really, it's conceptually a lot clearer to just say that genocide is OK if the stakes are high enough. It's what you actually mean, after all.
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 6, 2019 22:31:49 GMT
I didn't really stress on whether or not it was actually right or wrong (just the legal side of it), but I don't think this is an entirely fair comparison. After all, the geth were not so much a strategic target but rather hostage to a dilemma involving an existential threat to all of civilization, and a factor that shouldn't be forgotten in this is suicide, which is the requirement to facilitate the other 2 choices. Heroic sacrifice is nice and all, but if I was gonna kill myself to save the universe, I wouldn't do it to leave any remnant of the enemy intact, or worse, imbue it with my own consciousness to be civilization's Overlord or magically alter the entire Galaxy against its will. If we're going to talk about morality and ethics, those things can't be glossed over. All we have is what the enemy combatant tells us, but little reason beyond having absolutely no other options to really follow anything it says. So to use your analogy, you would kill the hostages in a situation if it meant stopping say the tyrant? I'm assuming you sacrifice the scientists on Asteroid 57 to stop Balak for example? Replace that tyrant with a fanatic that intends to use something at his disposal to wipe out life as we know it, with the exception of his own cabal. Yes, I would say that killing the hostages he has to prevent that from happening would be a reasonable course of action. Yes, I allowed the scientists on Asteroid 57 to die, and I killed every single Batarian on that rock, including the underling that offered a peaceful resolution. He was going to go back to slave trading. No way was I going to allow that, and I can't suffer a terrorist to live on account of 3 people vs the millions more potentially at risk.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2019 22:32:41 GMT
Exactly! Genocide by its very definition doesn't apply towards the Reapers. Why doesn't it? "Because I really want them dead " is a valid answer for certain definitions of genocide, of course. I agree that the Citadel races would define genocide in whatever manner was necessary to let Shepard off the hook. Genocide by its very definition... "Genocide is intentional action to destroy a people (usually defined as an ethnic, national, racial, or religious group) in whole or in part." ...which one of these applies to the Reapers?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 6, 2019 22:35:42 GMT
So to use your analogy, you would kill the hostages in a situation if it meant stopping say the tyrant? I'm assuming you sacrifice the scientists on Asteroid 57 to stop Balak for example? Replace that tyrant with a fanatic that intends to use something at his disposal to wipe out life as we know it, with the exception of his own cabal. Yes, I would say that killing the hostages he has to prevent that from happening would be a reasonable course of action. Yes, I allowed the scientists on Asteroid 57 to die, and I killed every single Batarian on that rock, including the underling that offered a peaceful resolution. He was going to go back to slave trading. No way was I going to allow that, and I can't suffer a terrorist to live on account of 3 people vs the millions more potentially at risk. Interesting.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 6, 2019 22:43:50 GMT
What about the platform? I know you would choose to keep the thing around because of the geth, but would you sacrifice your Shepard's life for the platform, if the geth were destroyed by the quarians? Either way, my Shepard doesn't give the edibot a second thought when choosing destroy.
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