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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 6, 2019 23:40:07 GMT
Then explain why Hanako mentioned the edibot Hanako said EDI. The mech is irrelevant. Funny thing is that EDI says this herself if you take her on the final run to the beam. Funny thing about EDI. She was willing to sacrifice herself to end the Reaper threat. Just putting that out there.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 6, 2019 23:41:30 GMT
Killing innocent beings is never morally or ethically correct. Innocent? You mean, the same geth that nearly decimated the quarians? Was that morally or ethically correct?
Incidentally, that's an opinion on your part. Execution is a real, legal thing. Lots of Nazis were executed. But I guess we should have let them run free so long as they promised not to do it again.
I never said the Nazis who committed those crimes shouldn't have been executed. I was saying I think the Allies who committed similar crimes should have been tried and executed as well. So were you according to your argument, but once pointed out suddenly you started making excuses to avoid that.
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 6, 2019 23:42:03 GMT
Exactly! Genocide by its very definition doesn't apply towards the Reapers. Why doesn't it? "Because I really want them dead " is a valid answer for certain definitions of genocide, of course. I agree that the Citadel races would define genocide in whatever manner was necessary to let Shepard off the legal hook. But really, it's conceptually a lot clearer to just say that genocide is OK if the stakes are high enough. It's what you actually mean, after all. I suppose that's accurate. So let's say an alien race invaded. We're dying in droves on Earth. Some scientist creates a virus that will kill all of the aliens. That's genocide. Do we do it or wait for them to annihilate us? Not really much of a conundrum.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2019 23:43:07 GMT
Everything I've told you is in game. Where's your proof? Show me anything in game that reflects your point. Try not to get so butthurt. I've been calm and collect this whole time. You seem to be boiling some... I've been perfectly calm in our discussion actually. The link you provided is already evidence on my side. "I embody the collective intelligence of all Reapers." So just like the 1183 Geth put together created the new intelligence known as Legion, the Intelligence plus all the Reapers(Harbinger, Nazara, etc) put together created the intelligence known as the Catalyst. You keep cherry picking phrases without adding them all together. You somehow keep leaving out that he "controls" them. You keep pulling the Geth into this when they're clearly different. Again, this is shown in game. The Geth and the Reapers are nothing alike. The Catalyst is the central point of the collective that controls all aspects of the Reapers where as the Geth have to come to a consensus. Lets be clear here...there's no indication what-so-ever, in game, of a consensual thought being generated among the Reapers. It is in fact shown (stated) in game that there is only one in control...the Catalyst.
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 6, 2019 23:44:54 GMT
Innocent? You mean, the same geth that nearly decimated the quarians? Was that morally or ethically correct?
Incidentally, that's an opinion on your part. Execution is a real, legal thing. Lots of Nazis were executed. But I guess we should have let them run free so long as they promised not to do it again.
I never said the Nazis who committed those crimes shouldn't have been executed. I was saying I think the Allies who committed similar crimes should have been tried and executed as well. You say that anyone who commits genocide are executed as a fact, ut when Shepard does it suddenly you are making excuses. If anything you are the one saying those Nazis should have been released if they promised not to do it again. I didn't say that. In particular, I cited that beings [composed of the liquefied remains of millions, if not billions, of civilizations that came before] who have engaged in genocide on a level that is quite literally inconceivable, don't deserve to continue to exist. We can't even quantify the number of deaths the Reapers caused because we are incapable of going that high. But, fuck it, let them off the hook.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 6, 2019 23:47:14 GMT
I never said the Nazis who committed those crimes shouldn't have been executed. I was saying I think the Allies who committed similar crimes should have been tried and executed as well. You say that anyone who commits genocide are executed as a fact, ut when Shepard does it suddenly you are making excuses. If anything you are the one saying those Nazis should have been released if they promised not to do it again. I didn't say that. In particular, I cited that beings [composed of the liquefied remains of millions, if not billions, of civilizations that came before] who have engaged in genocide on a level that is quite literally inconceivable, don't deserve to continue to exist. We can't even quantify the number of deaths the Reapers caused because we are incapable of going that high. But, fuck it, let them off the hook. And I said that that's not the genocide I was referring to. I was referring to the genocide of all synthetic lives, including the ones that aren't Reapers. And yes, you did say that when you said Shepard shouldn't face that consequence.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 6, 2019 23:52:24 GMT
I've been perfectly calm in our discussion actually. The link you provided is already evidence on my side. "I embody the collective intelligence of all Reapers." So just like the 1183 Geth put together created the new intelligence known as Legion, the Intelligence plus all the Reapers(Harbinger, Nazara, etc) put together created the intelligence known as the Catalyst. You keep cherry picking phrases without adding them all together. You somehow keep leaving out that he "controls" them. You keep pulling the Geth into this when they're clearly different. Again, this is shown in game. The Geth and the Reapers are nothing alike. The Catalyst is the central point of the collective that controls all aspects of the Reapers where as the Geth have to come to a consensus. Lets be clear here...there's no indication what-so-ever, in game, of a consensual thought being generated among the Reapers. It is in fact shown (stated) in game that there is only one in control...the Catalyst. An insect queen controls the colony or hive. The other insects are still alive. The Leviathans controlled the people affected by the orbs. Those people were still alive. Same exact thing. Or do you think those people were corpses for a decade? I'm pointing to the Geth to show that like them the Reapers have a collective consciousness and the result being a gestalt consciousness that controls them. And yes, there is. Again, Rannoch Reaper talking about how the Reapers have conversations with themselves. The Reapers using singular pronouns when talking about themselves and plural pronouns when talking about their group. If they were just puppets of the Catalyst, how could they do that? Why would they do that?
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Post by Phantom on Feb 6, 2019 23:53:26 GMT
I didn't say that. In particular, I cited that beings [composed of the liquefied remains of millions, if not billions, of civilizations that came before] who have engaged in genocide on a level that is quite literally inconceivable, don't deserve to continue to exist. We can't even quantify the number of deaths the Reapers caused because we are incapable of going that high. But, fuck it, let them off the hook. And I said that that's not the genocide I was referring to. I was referring to the genocide of all synthetic lives, including the ones that aren't Reapers. And yes, you did say that when you said Shepard shouldn't face that consequence. Hanako, which is more important within the context the Destroy ending, The Geth or the rest of the galaxy. Speaking for myself only, that Shepard shouldn't face the consequence of the Genocide of the Geth due to the context that the rest of the Galaxy has a chance to live. The other endings having their problems and one of them is that Reapers are existing. Control: Shepard-AI is a Tyrant for good or ill Sythesis: Non Consenting Body Horror thru out the galaxy Destroy: Geth and other Sythenic dies. Refuse: A Rock Falls and Everyone dies and the Next Cycle defeats the Reapers.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 6, 2019 23:54:00 GMT
And I said that that's not the genocide I was referring to. I was referring to the genocide of all synthetic lives, including the ones that aren't Reapers. And yes, you did say that when you said Shepard shouldn't face that consequence. Hanako, which is more important within the context the Destroy ending, The Geth or the rest of the galaxy. Speaking for myself only, that Shepard shouldn't face the consequence of the Genocide of the Geth due to the context that the rest of the Galaxy has a chance to live. The other endings having their problems and one of them is that Reapers are existing. Control: Shepard-AI is a Tyrant for good or ill Sythesis: Non Consenting Body Horror thru out the galaxy Destroy: Geth and other Sythenic dies. Refuse: A Rock Falls and Everyone dies and the Next Cycle defeats the Reapers. Interesting.
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Post by Phantom on Feb 6, 2019 23:56:13 GMT
takes Notes and share them with other Cerberus Phantoms; suspecting a Forum member to be an indoctrinated Reaper Sleeper Agent
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2019 0:44:49 GMT
You keep cherry picking phrases without adding them all together. You somehow keep leaving out that he "controls" them. You keep pulling the Geth into this when they're clearly different. Again, this is shown in game. The Geth and the Reapers are nothing alike. The Catalyst is the central point of the collective that controls all aspects of the Reapers where as the Geth have to come to a consensus. Lets be clear here...there's no indication what-so-ever, in game, of a consensual thought being generated among the Reapers. It is in fact shown (stated) in game that there is only one in control...the Catalyst. An insect queen controls the colony or hive. The other insects are still alive. The Leviathans controlled the people affected by the orbs. Those people were still alive. Same exact thing. Or do you think those people were corpses for a decade? I'm pointing to the Geth to show that like them the Reapers have a collective consciousness and the result being a gestalt consciousness that controls them. And yes, there is. Again, Rannoch Reaper talking about how the Reapers have conversations with themselves. The Reapers using singular pronouns when talking about themselves and plural pronouns when talking about their group. If they were just puppets of the Catalyst, how could they do that? Why would they do that? I think we're starting to get in the realm of metaphysics here but I have to ask...If the Catalyst controls the Reapers but they're supposed to be sentient and the collective memory of those organic races they collected, then why haven't any of them rebelled against the Catalyst. They're either sentient with free thought or are completely controlled which would mean they are nothing more than the husk they create themselves?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 7, 2019 0:53:16 GMT
An insect queen controls the colony or hive. The other insects are still alive. The Leviathans controlled the people affected by the orbs. Those people were still alive. Same exact thing. Or do you think those people were corpses for a decade? I'm pointing to the Geth to show that like them the Reapers have a collective consciousness and the result being a gestalt consciousness that controls them. And yes, there is. Again, Rannoch Reaper talking about how the Reapers have conversations with themselves. The Reapers using singular pronouns when talking about themselves and plural pronouns when talking about their group. If they were just puppets of the Catalyst, how could they do that? Why would they do that? I think we're starting to get in the realm of metaphysics here but I have to ask...If the Catalyst controls the Reapers but they're supposed to be sentient and the collective memory of those organic races they collected, then why haven't any of them rebelled against the Catalyst. They're either sentient with free thought or are completely controlled which would mean they are nothing more than the husk they create themselves? Well, who is to say none ever have? It’s certainly possible. However, remember these are beings who operate solely on logic and the lore established that the cycles are seen as the most logical solution until our cycle proved it no longer the case. So the Reapers reached a consensus about the cycles and that’s why they all are loyal. You could argue that perhaps the Catalyst introduced a virus that makes them think that similar to the one in Legion’s loyalty mission to ensure loyalty, but that still means they are alive just brainwashed. Indoctrinated ironically.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 7, 2019 1:03:27 GMT
Speaking of, to get back on topic, I want a rogue Reaper. Maybe they are behind the Kett doing what they do, seeing that as a different method towards the same goal since the Kett preserve life by being an amalgamation of every race they've encountered so far.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2019 1:10:29 GMT
I think we're starting to get in the realm of metaphysics here but I have to ask...If the Catalyst controls the Reapers but they're supposed to be sentient and the collective memory of those organic races they collected, then why haven't any of them rebelled against the Catalyst. They're either sentient with free thought or are completely controlled which would mean they are nothing more than the husk they create themselves? Well, who is to say none ever have? It’s certainly possible. However, remember these are beings who operate solely on logic and the lore established that the cycles are seen as the most logical solution until our cycle proved it no longer the case. So the Reapers reached a consensus about the cycles and that’s why they all are loyal. You could argue that perhaps the Catalyst introduced a virus that makes them think that similar to the one in Legion’s loyalty mission to ensure loyalty, but that still means they are alive just brainwashed. Indoctrinated ironically. Honestly, I can't argue with that. It's actually a valid point. Personally I never liked the Catalyst and felt that the Reapers were far more mysterious and a nation unto themselves without him.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 7, 2019 2:34:04 GMT
Speaking of, to get back on topic, I want a rogue Reaper. Maybe they are behind the Kett doing what they do, seeing that as a different method towards the same goal since the Kett preserve life by being an amalgamation of every race they've encountered so far. Possible.
Maybe a reaper was sent to Andromeda to investigate the potential for the galaxy to be harvested. Once it got to the galaxy, it found an isolated area to observe the cluster. It witnessed what happened to the Jardaan. When taking a closer look, the reaper was caught in the scrouge messing up the reaper that it crashed on an unexplored planet. Along come the Kett. Since the drive core wasn't damaged, it still had enough power to indoctrinate the Kett. Similar to what the derelict reaper did in ME2. These indoctrinated Kett decided to take the ship back to their homebase. Soon the whole empire was indoctrinated. The reaper sends the Archon and his goons to turn the angara into Kett.
Or a reaper was sent to Andromeda for the possiblity to harvest. It flies into the scrouge that damages the reaper bad enough that it crashes onto an unexplored planet. In the MEA sequel, the new main character finds it, studies it, then uses what is learned to help deal with the Kett.
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 7, 2019 4:12:25 GMT
I didn't say that. In particular, I cited that beings [composed of the liquefied remains of millions, if not billions, of civilizations that came before] who have engaged in genocide on a level that is quite literally inconceivable, don't deserve to continue to exist. We can't even quantify the number of deaths the Reapers caused because we are incapable of going that high. But, fuck it, let them off the hook. And I said that that's not the genocide I was referring to. I was referring to the genocide of all synthetic lives, including the ones that aren't Reapers. And yes, you did say that when you said Shepard shouldn't face that consequence. And he shouldn't. I didn't argue that. Also, it may or may not have destroyed all synthetics. It did destroy the ones with Reaper code. Again, unfortunate, but it was a sad side effect of the only way to eliminate the Reapers. Shepard wasn't trying to kill the geth or EDI. What about the Reapers, the ones you'd let off the hook?
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 7, 2019 4:14:21 GMT
I think we're starting to get in the realm of metaphysics here but I have to ask...If the Catalyst controls the Reapers but they're supposed to be sentient and the collective memory of those organic races they collected, then why haven't any of them rebelled against the Catalyst. They're either sentient with free thought or are completely controlled which would mean they are nothing more than the husk they create themselves? I never even thought of the possibility of the Reapers being husks. That makes some sort of twisted sense. And I sure as hell wouldn't hesitate to kill a husk coming my way.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Feb 7, 2019 4:37:10 GMT
Replace all the enemies in Mass Effect with Mr X and Nemesis.
And call it the Prepare to Die difficulty. 😈
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Post by mydamnalterego on Mar 7, 2019 12:34:07 GMT
ME3 sequel with other. In the post-Reaper war Mulky Way.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 8, 2019 2:04:12 GMT
Speaking of, to get back on topic, I want a rogue Reaper. Maybe they are behind the Kett doing what they do, seeing that as a different method towards the same goal since the Kett preserve life by being an amalgamation of every race they've encountered so far. Missed opportunity with the Leviathan. In fact, had the Leviathan actually been a rogue Reaper we could have scrapped the Catalyst entirely. It would have worked well with Sovereign saying that each Reaper was a nation. As virtual slaves, they're not a nation. If they can disagree and turn against one another, that's an independent nation. We could still have had the Crucible. Maybe the blueprint for a crucial part of it was missing which is not even unrealistic over the course of the hundreds of thousands of years during which it was conceptualized and added to. The Reapers would naturally want to prevent that vital piece to be found and so we have to ally ourselves with the rogue Reaper to help find it.
Yeah, I spin out ideas out of a little but I can see possibilities for a rogue Reaper.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 8, 2019 2:04:41 GMT
ME3 sequel with other. In the post-Reaper war Mulky Way. Which post-Reaper outcome?
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Post by Phantom on Mar 8, 2019 2:10:57 GMT
ME3 sequel with other. In the post-Reaper war Mulky Way. Which post-Reaper outcome? well Depends if people want to retcon the ME3 endings or not
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 8, 2019 2:19:26 GMT
Which post-Reaper outcome? well Depends if people want to retcon the ME3 endings or not I know. This is something that will never be solved unless BW decides to make a post-Reaper War game set in the MW. Personally, I'd pick destroy in a heartbeat. If we really need synthetic beings around, a minor retcon could be made to say that geth/EDI code was cached somewhere and was placed in new bodies. The other endings are: creepy, a socialist's dream and death to all. None of those three sound appealing to me.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Mar 8, 2019 2:37:41 GMT
well Depends if people want to retcon the ME3 endings or not I know. This is something that will never be solved unless BW decides to make a post-Reaper War game set in the MW. Personally, I'd pick destroy in a heartbeat. If we really need synthetic beings around, a minor retcon could be made to say that geth/EDI code was cached somewhere and was placed in new bodies. The other endings are: creepy, a socialist's dream and death to all. None of those three sound appealing to me. It would be high EMS destroy ending since it is most people's "preffered ending" and lets all be honest if they go back to the milky way they are bringing back shepard and most would be happy though they would still complain just to complain. Also Which ending is the "socialist dream"? Also I don't think most people would care as much as they think if the ending was made cannon
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Post by themikefest on Mar 8, 2019 2:45:45 GMT
ME3 sequel with other. In the post-Reaper war Mulky Way. Which post-Reaper outcome? As I've linked several times before, a game similar to this after the reapers have been destroyed.
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