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Post by SirSourpuss on Aug 30, 2019 16:50:50 GMT
Yes, they are just for entertainment. It is also business. Game media and youtube is also business. Dev stress is serious business. I lost a good friend to that stress when he committed suicide. He didn't take "ridicule" well. You understand, then, why I propose the route that bypasses all that. Bioware doesn't need that, the devs don't need that. You can make a choice that rids you of all that. Not entirely, but certainly alleviates much of that. Andromeda 2 won't be that choice, you know this.
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Post by Phantom on Aug 30, 2019 16:51:21 GMT
You shouldn't take what people say to heart, otherwise they win. Afterall, they're just words. As we Brits say, stiff upper lip. That is precisely what I told him. It didn't help. Suicide and Mental Illness are a touchy subject at the best of times. I am sure that he has underlining mental illness combining with that stress made it harder for him to listen to anyone during the period that he was considering suicide and following thru. I do admit that I have an interest in psychology but your friend needed professional help to get proper treatment.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2019 16:57:49 GMT
Yes, they are just for entertainment. It is also business. Game media and youtube is also business. Dev stress is serious business. I lost a good friend to that stress when he committed suicide. He didn't take "ridicule" well. You understand, then, why I propose the route that bypasses all that. Bioware doesn't need that, the devs don't need that. You can make a choice that rids you of all that. Not entirely, but certainly alleviates much of that. Andromeda 2 won't be that choice, you know this. You are absolutely way off base now. Spinning this to support your narcissism. Presuming to tell me what 'I know." Let Bioware make their own decisions, please. I'm not leaving this site. I'm not shutting up about what I genuinely like. If that blocks you and your objectives... I REALLY don't give a F.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2019 17:02:02 GMT
That is precisely what I told him. It didn't help. Suicide and Mental Illness are a touchy subject at the best of times. I am sure that he has underlining mental illness combining with that stress made it harder for him to listen to anyone during the period that he was considering suicide and following thru. I do admit that I have an interest in psychology but your friend needed professional help to get proper treatment. I am not about to discuss my deceased friend's mental health online on this site. You don't even have an inkling about what help he may have been getting. Devs are under stress. They are exposed to harrassment and ridicule online. That's a well documented fact. Don't white wash it just because my friend couldn't put up enough of a "stiff upper lip." Regardless whether their targets can handle the stress or not, memers need to take responsibility for what they do when they cross the line from "good fun" in the name of "entertainment" to "ridicule." End discussion.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Aug 30, 2019 17:23:26 GMT
Spinning this to support your narcissism Narcissism. Do you even know what narcissism is? Do go throwing words around just because they sound fancy to you. How is this even remotely related to narcissism? Presuming to tell me what 'I know." You know your friend died because he couldn't handle the stress. Let Bioware make their own decisions, please. It's going to be their own decision, regardless, but some options are more sensible than others and taking the one that will face the same problems as before is not the one. I'm not leaving this site When have I ever asked you to leave? If anything, I always say that I want you with me. I'm not gatekeeping. I'm not shutting up about what I genuinely like I'm not asking you to. If that blocks you and your objectives... I REALLY don't give a F. I believe that it blocks your objectives as well.
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Post by Phantom on Aug 30, 2019 17:27:21 GMT
Suicide and Mental Illness are a touchy subject at the best of times. I am sure that he has underlining mental illness combining with that stress made it harder for him to listen to anyone during the period that he was considering suicide and following thru. I do admit that I have an interest in psychology but your friend needed professional help to get proper treatment. I am not about to discuss my deceased friend's mental health online on this site. You don't even have an inkling about what help he may have been getting. Devs are under stress. They are exposed to harrassment and ridicule online. That's a well documented fact. Don't white wash it just because my friend couldn't put up enough of a "stiff upper lip." Regardless whether their targets can handle the stress or not, memers need to take responsibility for what they do when they cross the line from "good fun" in the name of "entertainment" to "ridicule." End discussion. First off a professional psychologist would be a better help than I ever would be. I am not white washing a damn thing about Mental Illness, Stress or ever Suicide. Also being criticism is a part of life regardless of career. Some criticism is justified and some of it is not but in the end, it is not avoidable.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2019 17:45:22 GMT
I am not about to discuss my deceased friend's mental health online on this site. You don't even have an inkling about what help he may have been getting. Devs are under stress. They are exposed to harrassment and ridicule online. That's a well documented fact. Don't white wash it just because my friend couldn't put up enough of a "stiff upper lip." Regardless whether their targets can handle the stress or not, memers need to take responsibility for what they do when they cross the line from "good fun" in the name of "entertainment" to "ridicule." End discussion. First off a professional psychologist would be a better help than I ever would be. I am not white washing a damn thing about Mental Illness, Stress or ever Suicide. Also being criticism is a part of life regardless of career. Some criticism is justified and some of it is not but in the end, it is not avoidable. Did I not just specify "WHEN they cross the line" from "good fun" to "ridicule?" Ridicule is not merely criticism. By definition it goes beyond mere criticism.
Furthermore, no one can help my friend now... he's dead and actually has been dead for several years now. We still think of him and probably always will... that's just the nature of surviving a suicide of someone close... or so the professionals tell me.
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Post by Phantom on Aug 30, 2019 17:55:31 GMT
First off a professional psychologist would be a better help than I ever would be. I am not white washing a damn thing about Mental Illness, Stress or ever Suicide. Also being criticism is a part of life regardless of career. Some criticism is justified and some of it is not but in the end, it is not avoidable. Did I not just specify "WHEN they cross the line" from "good fun" to "ridicule?" Ridicule is not merely criticism. By definition it goes beyond mere criticism.
You have to realize that no matter what you do; there will always being assholes will ridicule and criticize others because they can. that is a major part of life, I will never ask anyone to like it but I will ask people to deal the best way they can.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2019 18:03:46 GMT
Did I not just specify "WHEN they cross the line" from "good fun" to "ridicule?" Ridicule is not merely criticism. By definition it goes beyond mere criticism.
You have to realize that no matter what you do; there will always being assholes will ridicule and criticize others because they can. that is a major part of life, I will never ask anyone to like it but I will ask people to deal the best way they can. I don't how that makes it wrong to say they should take some responsibility for what they do. When I see children being ridiculed (read = a form of bullying) do you turn a blind eye just tell the child who is being victimized to "deal with it the best way they can?" I think the professionals would now say this is not the ideal course of action to take in that regard. The person doing the ridiculing also needs some help to enable them to develop some sense of empathy... learning to know when they're crossing the line. Schools are now developing entire programs designed to address the different needs of both the victims and the bullies.
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Post by Phantom on Aug 30, 2019 18:10:17 GMT
You have to realize that no matter what you do; there will always being assholes will ridicule and criticize others because they can. that is a major part of life, I will never ask anyone to like it but I will ask people to deal the best way they can. I don't how that makes it wrong to say they should take some responsibility for what they do. When I see children being ridiculed (read = a form of bullying) do you turn a blind eye just tell the child who is being victimized to "deal with it the best way they can?" I think the professionals would now say this is not the ideal course of action to take in that regard. The person doing the ridiculing also needs some help to enable them to develop some sense of empathy... learning to know when they're crossing the line. Schools are now developing entire programs designed to address the different needs of both the victims and the bullies. As for personal experience, Turning a blind eye and dealing it with them diplomaticly never works.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2019 18:21:34 GMT
I don't how that makes it wrong to say they should take some responsibility for what they do. When I see children being ridiculed (read = a form of bullying) do you turn a blind eye just tell the child who is being victimized to "deal with it the best way they can?" I think the professionals would now say this is not the ideal course of action to take in that regard. The person doing the ridiculing also needs some help to enable them to develop some sense of empathy... learning to know when they're crossing the line. Schools are now developing entire programs designed to address the different needs of both the victims and the bullies. As for personal experience, Turning a blind eye and dealing it with them diplomaticly never works. "Turning a blind eye" is not the same thing as "dealing with them diplomatically" "Dealing with the ridicule as best as they can" might be the same as "dealing with them diplomatically" since being diplomatic" towards someone who is ridiculing them might be the "best they (as individuals) can do. So, I'm sorry, but I really don't know where you're going with this other than, as far as I can tell, in circles. When game media excessivley memes a game (as they did with Andromeda) for clicks, they are, IMO, crossing the line. In my mind, they weaken any validity their criticisms might have and I tend to discount them altogether. It doesn't matter, because I have my first-hand playthrough that ultimately forms the basis of my opinion of a game. I genuinely like Andromeda. My tastes may not align with yours or anyone elses, but I can still state them here. I've been ridiculed aplenty for doing so. I can assure you that I'm dealing with that just fine. I'm not my friend. Still, I can still believe the practice of ridiculing online is wrong.
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Post by griffith82 on Aug 31, 2019 17:10:47 GMT
You're the one who dislikes everything they've done since ME2 Well, it just so happens that every game since then has been met with some criticism and a certain inability to meet expectations and/or sales targets. You propose that they stick to the same tactic, i.e. keep delivering products that will meet the same fate, whereas I propose a change of tactic and while not necessarily a return to Bioware's roots, I am not advocating for an isometric RTwP/TB RPG, I am suggesting something that will appeal out of sheer emotional value. 'Member berries, you might argue at this point, sure, but effective ones, nonetheless and if you use them right, which is not hard, as people have literally no expectations out of Bioware now, can go a long way into showing that Bioware cares for their fans and consumer base. It is a gesture of good will, because they've sure squeezed every last drop of those with Anthem. ME3 was critically praised if I recall and sold well. The endings were divisive among fans. Andromeda was a mixed bag of reception but also sold well just not as much as they hoped. Anthem is what truly failed.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 2, 2019 10:58:34 GMT
ME3 was critically praised if I recall and sold well It also had a ton of refunds and an unprecedented post release PR shitstorm. The endings were divisive among fans With long lasting effect, I would argue. Andromeda was a mixed bag of reception but also sold well just not as much as they hoped It was also the first Bioware game since ME1 not to receive SP DLC, free or otherwise and had its development studio closed down. Anthem is what truly failed At least Edmonton is still alive.
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Post by Phantom on Sept 2, 2019 20:21:34 GMT
What I want is them to take their time, getting comfortable with every square inch of the game engine, good animation, good gameplay, good game design. Something out of left field to excite Fans.
If Ryder returns, Him growing a spine.
If Returning to Milk way, A New Player Character of any stripe that is capable to handle either a concurrent game to Shepard or a Post Reaper War game.
With Any Player character within Milk Way and a functional Prequel to Andromeda that when completed that has unlocks new gear selection for Ryder and his/her crew for ME:A. For example, doing a Sidequest for Cora in this game will give her an new shotgun and armor within ME:A. Same for each for Milk way members of ME:A crew.
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Post by griffith82 on Sept 3, 2019 3:13:08 GMT
ME3 was critically praised if I recall and sold well It also had a ton of refunds and an unprecedented post release PR shitstorm. The endings were divisive among fans With long lasting effect, I would argue. Andromeda was a mixed bag of reception but also sold well just not as much as they hoped It was also the first Bioware game since ME1 not to receive SP DLC, free or otherwise and had its development studio closed down. Anthem is what truly failed At least Edmonton is still alive. ME3's issue was the same as some of Andromeda's. Whining crybabies who wanted things a certain way like a sunshine and blue babies ending. Most fans knew that was never going to be the case. Andromeda was the same with people not wanting a new protagonist, or new galaxy or their favorite alien race not present. Granted there were bugs and launch issues but other than that it was a solid game imo of course. Again Montreal had issues thus it was closed Andromeda was not the factor or st least not the sole factor. In the end however the only failure is Anthem the rest are minor misteps at worst.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 3, 2019 11:41:58 GMT
Whining crybabies who wanted things a certain way like a sunshine and blue babies ending Well, that shows the understanding you have of the ME3 ending complaints. Which is zero. Hell, I didn't even romance Liara, so what's my problem? Most fans knew that was never going to be the case Yeah, but they most certainly didn't expect a kid that they had no interest or connection to, to show up in the ending and an RBG colour palette change of pretty much the same cinematic to be played. Granted there were bugs and launch issues but other than that it was a solid game imo of course Well, you see, your personal opinion on the matter changes nothing. If people don't want something, they're not going to just swallow it. Not when there is another choice out there. Even more so when the other choices are better. You and me may think differently of Bioware, it's why we're here after all, but to everyone else, Bioware is just another company. There's no reason for them to stick around or be hopeful or stocked for Bioware's next release. For all they know, Bioware never released a good game on the PS4/XBONE generation, so everything before that may as well be ancient history. Again Montreal had issues thus it was closed Andromeda was not the factor or st least not the sole factor. In the end however the only failure is Anthem the rest are minor misteps at worst. Minor missteps? So you think that after all these complaints, everyone's going to eagerly line up for Bioware's next title? Buddy, they are a laughing stock right now. But feel free to think whatever helps you.
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Post by griffith82 on Sept 3, 2019 15:16:49 GMT
Whining crybabies who wanted things a certain way like a sunshine and blue babies ending Well, that shows the understanding you have of the ME3 ending complaints. Which is zero. Hell, I didn't even romance Liara, so what's my problem? Most fans knew that was never going to be the case Yeah, but they most certainly didn't expect a kid that they had no interest or connection to, to show up in the ending and an RBG colour palette change of pretty much the same cinematic to be played. Granted there were bugs and launch issues but other than that it was a solid game imo of course Well, you see, your personal opinion on the matter changes nothing. If people don't want something, they're not going to just swallow it. Not when there is another choice out there. Even more so when the other choices are better. You and me may think differently of Bioware, it's why we're here after all, but to everyone else, Bioware is just another company. There's no reason for them to stick around or be hopeful or stocked for Bioware's next release. For all they know, Bioware never released a good game on the PS4/XBONE generation, so everything before that may as well be ancient history. Again Montreal had issues thus it was closed Andromeda was not the factor or st least not the sole factor. In the end however the only failure is Anthem the rest are minor misteps at worst. Minor missteps? So you think that after all these complaints, everyone's going to eagerly line up for Bioware's next title? Buddy, they are a laughing stock right now. But feel free to think whatever helps you. No I know the complaints quite well and that was one of the chief ones. The other was the ambiguous ending that left something to be desired. It left it open to interpretation which many did not like. The ending also didnt incorporate your choices but instead the rest of the game did and your choices affected the game as a whole. DAI was also released for Xbox One/Ps4 and was recieved rather well. Again Andromeda was mixed not a failure Anthem is widely considered a failure though despite a fanbase for it. Also Bioware is only a laughing stock to some not all. I still support them as do many others. If you and others don't it baffles me why you're still here.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 3, 2019 15:34:50 GMT
No I know the complaints quite well and that was one of the chief ones. The other was the ambiguous ending that left something to be desired. It left it open to interpretation which many did not like. The ending also didnt incorporate your choices but instead the rest of the game did and your choices affected the game as a whole. DAI was also released for Xbox One/Ps4 and was recieved rather well. Again Andromeda was mixed not a failure Anthem is widely considered a failure though despite a fanbase for it. Also Bioware is only a laughing stock to some not all. I still support them as do many others. If you and others don't it baffles me why you're still here. Interpret it however you want, but it doesn't change the facts; ME3 was divisive at best and left a lot of people disappointed, your "chief complaint" is plainly wrong and claiming you know it well, proves how wrong you are even further. Andromeda was indeed a failure, I don't know how you can spin that on a game that enjoyed NO single player support, with its studio getting shuttered and as for DA:I, you just need to see Geoff Keighley's face at the VGA's to understand how the gaming community feels about it. And Bioware is most definitely a laughing stock. No other studio, that I am aware of, gets the ridicule Bioware does. Not even Bethesda or Blizzard does and they've tried hard to compete, but they just can't seem reach that meme level Bioware has. As for supporting Bioware, I do, I absolutely do, but not in their effort to become the most memed studio in the industry. I hope that we will change that.
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Post by griffith82 on Sept 3, 2019 15:40:21 GMT
No I know the complaints quite well and that was one of the chief ones. The other was the ambiguous ending that left something to be desired. It left it open to interpretation which many did not like. The ending also didnt incorporate your choices but instead the rest of the game did and your choices affected the game as a whole. DAI was also released for Xbox One/Ps4 and was recieved rather well. Again Andromeda was mixed not a failure Anthem is widely considered a failure though despite a fanbase for it. Also Bioware is only a laughing stock to some not all. I still support them as do many others. If you and others don't it baffles me why you're still here. Interpret it however you want, but it doesn't change the facts; ME3 was divisive at best and left a lot of people disappointed, your "chief complaint" is plainly wrong and claiming you know it well, proves how wrong you are even further. Andromeda was indeed a failure, I don't know how you can spin that on a game that enjoyed NO single player support, with its studio getting shuttered and as for DA:I, you just need to see Geoff Keighley's face at the VGA's to understand how the gaming community feels about it. And Bioware is most definitely a laughing stock. No other studio, that I am aware of, gets the ridicule Bioware does. Not even Bethesda or Blizzard does and they've tried hard to compete, but they just can't seem reach that meme level Bioware has. As for supporting Bioware, I do, I absolutely do, but not in their effort to become the most memed studio in the industry. I hope that we will change that. I was there for the ending debates, the death threats everything so I damn well do know and lack of closure for the li was a chief complaint. Prove to me that Andromeda failed. People are still playing it even MP and dont use metacritic to prove your point. There a fake reviews on every review site. We cant change a damn thing they will make the game they want end of story. Some will like it some won't.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 3, 2019 16:05:39 GMT
Death threats? Really? You're going to label an entire population over a few idiots that couldn't hold their temper, much less running their fucking mouth and defame everyone? As if we are all some radical extremists that go out on a regular basis and shoot people for sport. I damn well do know and lack of closure for the li was a chief complaint It was high up there, but definitely not a chief complaint. Prove to me that Andromeda failed Hold on, let me just go ring the bell over at the offices of Bioware Montreal. ... Well, that's funny. There was no answer. No lights on, no people that I could see of going in or out. It's as if its ... closed. I wonder what could have happened that Bioware Montreal closed. Hmmm People are still playing it even MP I'm not saying you shouldn't play it. People play Fallout 76, for example. I don't understand the why, but sure. Andromeda is still not anywhere in the XBOX One's top 49 most played games, so I'm guessing its around Anthem numbers. dont use metacritic to prove your point. There a fake reviews on every review site Are you claiming that all reviews ever are fake and thus untrustworthy? That the entire review system is and has always been broken? That there is no standard by which anything can ever be judged? Are you claiming that your word in this matter is more correct than anyone else's and should be taken as gospel? What makes your review valid and other people's invalid? We cant change a damn thing they will make the game they want end of story. Some will like it some won't. So you don't care, that's what you're telling me. You just want to consume, even if the entire industry dies tomorrow because people don't abide by your mindset and won't buy these products. Just consume. So you'll consume regardless. So why not consume something people will enjoy for once?
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Post by griffith82 on Sept 3, 2019 16:22:27 GMT
Death threats? Really? You're going to label an entire population over a few idiots that couldn't hold their temper, much less running their fucking mouth and defame everyone? As if we are all some radical extremists that go out on a regular basis and shoot people for sport. I damn well do know and lack of closure for the li was a chief complaint It was high up there, but definitely not a chief complaint. Prove to me that Andromeda failed Hold on, let me just go ring the bell over at the offices of Bioware Montreal. ... Well, that's funny. There was no answer. No lights on, no people that I could see of going in or out. It's as if its ... closed. I wonder what could have happened that Bioware Montreal closed. Hmmm People are still playing it even MP I'm not saying you shouldn't play it. People play Fallout 76, for example. I don't understand the why, but sure. Andromeda is still not anywhere in the XBOX One's top 49 most played games, so I'm guessing its around Anthem numbers. dont use metacritic to prove your point. There a fake reviews on every review site Are you claiming that all reviews ever are fake and thus untrustworthy? That the entire review system is and has always been broken? That there is no standard by which anything can ever be judged? Are you claiming that your word in this matter is more correct than anyone else's and should be taken as gospel? What makes your review valid and other people's invalid? We cant change a damn thing they will make the game they want end of story. Some will like it some won't. So you don't care, that's what you're telling me. You just want to consume, even if the entire industry dies tomorrow because people don't abide by your mindset and won't buy these products. Just consume. So you'll consume regardless. So why not consume something people will enjoy for once? I dont recall claiming the entire community did that. I said I was there for it. I saw the extremes some went to that's all. Fair enough but it was up there. Montreal closed due to internal issues not just Andromeda. Why do I have to keep repeating that? No not all reviews are fake but there were many 0 reviews that were fake. Read them and you can find the spammed fake reviews. No I do care my point was we cannot make the decision on how the next game is. Where it's set, what the story is as that is their call.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 3, 2019 16:29:41 GMT
Montreal closed due to internal issues not just Andromeda So if Andromeda had come out and sold 12 million copies, they'd still have been shut down? No not all reviews are fake but there were many 0 reviews that were fake. Read them and you can find the spammed fake reviews. I'm not referring to the user reviews. Those are far more harsh and extreme than those of real review sites. And there are other reviews that give Andromeda a glowing, unapologetic praise. Which is why it all averages out and somewhere there, in the middle, you find the truth. my point was we cannot make the decision on how the next game is. Where it's set, what the story is as that is their call. Wrong. We are the decision makers, because ultimately we are the ones that Bioware sells the game to, they can't make what they want, they need to make something that sells and you can't sell something that people laughed at, because they'll just laugh at it again. That's how the market works; supply and demand.
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Hope for the best, plan for the worst
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Post by griffith82 on Sept 3, 2019 16:41:26 GMT
Montreal closed due to internal issues not just Andromeda So if Andromeda had come out and sold 12 million copies, they'd still have been shut down? No not all reviews are fake but there were many 0 reviews that were fake. Read them and you can find the spammed fake reviews. I'm not referring to the user reviews. Those are far more harsh and extreme than those of real review sites. And there are other reviews that give Andromeda a glowing, unapologetic praise. Which is why it all averages out and somewhere there, in the middle, you find the truth. my point was we cannot make the decision on how the next game is. Where it's set, what the story is as that is their call. Wrong. We are the decision makers, because ultimately we are the ones that Bioware sells the game to, they can't make what they want, they need to make something that sells and you can't sell something that people laughed at, because they'll just laugh at it again. That's how the market works; supply and demand. Possibly. We dont know exactly how bad things were but the fact remains it was having issues. Fair enough about the reviews. You are wrong. It is their story to tell they will make what they want we don't get to dictate that. Don't like it don't buy it that is how it works in any industry.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 3, 2019 16:52:54 GMT
It is their story to tell they will make what they want we don't get to dictate that. Don't like it don't buy it that is how it works in any industry. No, that's not how it works. This isn't a Picasso. You can't sell a single copy of Andromeda for $250 million and recoup your investment and then some. Don't like it, don't buy it, didn't even work for Battlefield V, why would it work for Bioware's next title? That's not how the industry works, that's not even how the industry survives. That's what's currently going on in the comic book industry. And it's dying. Also don't forget, the last game that Bioware made how they wanted was Anthem. Is that the Andromeda 2 you want?
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Hope for the best, plan for the worst
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Post by griffith82 on Sept 3, 2019 19:13:07 GMT
It is their story to tell they will make what they want we don't get to dictate that. Don't like it don't buy it that is how it works in any industry. No, that's not how it works. This isn't a Picasso. You can't sell a single copy of Andromeda for $250 million and recoup your investment and then some. Don't like it, don't buy it, didn't even work for Battlefield V, why would it work for Bioware's next title? That's not how the industry works, that's not even how the industry survives. That's what's currently going on in the comic book industry. And it's dying. Also don't forget, the last game that Bioware made how they wanted was Anthem. Is that the Andromeda 2 you want? I want them to make their game how they want to tell their story not pander to a few fans and tell the story they want. In the end it's up to them and yes that is how it works. You just don't like it.
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