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Post by cmdrshep2183 on Aug 29, 2018 10:55:56 GMT
Would open world dilute the story?
What can Bioware learn from The Witcher 3 and BOTW?
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Post by natetrace on Aug 29, 2018 11:56:19 GMT
Open world always dilutes the story, no matter the game. I don't hate open world, but it does take you away from the main story so of course it dilutes it. I guess I don't know. I go back and forth. If Andromeda got an expansion I'd want a tight 20 hour story. If a full fledged game I'd want open world.
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Aug 29, 2018 12:13:30 GMT
Open world but with tighter Hubs.
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Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Aug 29, 2018 12:42:01 GMT
You won't get a unified opinion because everyone seems to agree to disagree about about almost anything Mass Effect or BioWare related.
I am a believer that for a game to work you need some static element to drive the story and in BioWare games normally have a more predefined world to make up for having an undefined character. Mass Effect 1 was a linear game unless you jumped off to do the UNC missions and the areas of Dragon Age: Origins you heard the most complaints about were the less defined ones such as Deep Roads or The Fade.
Personally I find open world games to be designed to be a timesink so people think they are getting 100+ hours of gameplay for their price of admission when a lot of it is just wandering around opening boxes and looting crafting materials. Breath of the Wild was able to accomplish a fixed character with Link because we know Link for all those years of playing Zelda games and The Witcher 3 has Geralt who pretty much is a linear character with no growth so the game world shapes itself around him.
So if BioWare is to learn something from those games its not about the gameplay or the level design for Andromeda was in line with those games, but they need to make a character more pre-defined which I doubt is something a lot of people want to see in a BioWare game.
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Post by griffith82 on Aug 29, 2018 12:51:18 GMT
Open world but with tighter Hubs. What do you mean by tighter hubs?
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Aug 29, 2018 12:57:09 GMT
Open world but with tighter Hubs. What do you mean by tighter hubs? Meaning, there should be less traveling between the objectives, smaller areas basically, but still open. UNC Planet exploration missions ala ME1 but in MEA style would be then side missions with driving. My dream is to combine ME1+MEA
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Post by griffith82 on Aug 29, 2018 13:29:47 GMT
What do you mean by tighter hubs? Meaning, there should be less traveling between the objectives, smaller areas basically, but still open. UNC Planet exploration missions ala ME1 but in MEA style would be then side missions with driving. My dream is to combine ME1+MEA Ok I see where you are coming from. I didn't mind the hubs in Andromeda but I agree.
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Aug 29, 2018 14:01:23 GMT
Meaning, there should be less traveling between the objectives, smaller areas basically, but still open. UNC Planet exploration missions ala ME1 but in MEA style would be then side missions with driving. My dream is to combine ME1+MEA Ok I see where you are coming from. I didn't mind the hubs in Andromeda but I agree. Me neither, I loved them, but it would also keep the story a bit tighter in those areas, where it should matter when traveling... I think. But not as small as ME2 (and ME3 in some cases)
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 29, 2018 14:36:47 GMT
I don't know. Open world isn't terrible but I like going on missions to specific places and not having too much time wasted on driving to the very edge of the map to scan some random rock.
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Post by samhain444 on Aug 29, 2018 15:48:08 GMT
I'm playing through ME:A right now, trying for a 100% run...here are some thoughts:
- The most connected and engaged I felt with the environment I was in was when I playing through Habitat 7 and Havarl. The Habitat 7 mission especailly was fast paced and had a sense of urgency that needed to be employed in other areas. Both of those areas had smaller and more focused maps and you traversed on foot which allowed you to take advantage of the game's best addition - the jetpack. With Eos, Voeld, Kadara, and Eladaan all requiring you do to extensive driving to hit all the map points, they really needed to make one or two of those planets more compact and on-foot to break up the environments a bit. - The Galaxy Map was the best in the series and, with the "Skip" button, did not consume much time in that regard. However, the plotting across multiple systems for certain missions got tedious (ex. Contagion, Life on the Frontier, etc). Make the missions specific to the planet cluster so you don't have to keep hopping back and forth. - Another way to best utilize the galaxy map and the Nomad is to make some of the planets were Suvi identifies anomalies explorable. Not a huge area, but big enough you check a couple of things while utilizing the various features of the upgraded Nomad. You could have a wide range of mission-types like, for example attack a Kett Stronghold to obtain valuable intel, explore an abandoned Angaran facility that was evacuated during the Kett invasion, explore a Remnant site identified by Peebee, search for a smuggler's cache overheard by Vetra, etc. - One of the best things about ME1 was the "spine" of the game was Therum-Noveria-Feros-Virmire and each gave you a piece of the puzzle to defeat Saren and Sovereign. They were more focused on the main plot and almost all the side missions related to that hub were centrally located and could be visited relatively quickly. Noveria, for example, had two main areas to explore with some Mako driving in between.
That's just what I'm noticing as I'm playing through right now. Still love the game, and there are definitely times where I like getting lost in the exploration or driving around, but you can definitely see where there can be tighter presentations.
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Aug 29, 2018 16:45:55 GMT
I'm playing through ME:A right now, trying for a 100% run...here are some thoughts: - The Galaxy Map was the best in the series and, with the "Skip" button, did not consume much time in that regard. However, the plotting across multiple systems for certain missions got tedious (ex. Contagion, Life on the Frontier, etc). Make the missions specific to the planet cluster so you don't have to keep hopping back and forth. - Another way to best utilize the galaxy map and the Nomad is to make some of the planets were Suvi identifies anomalies explorable. Not a huge area, but big enough you check a couple of things while utilizing the various features of the upgraded Nomad. You could have a wide range of mission-types like, for example attack a Kett Stronghold to obtain valuable intel, explore an abandoned Angaran facility that was evacuated during the Kett invasion, explore a Remnant site identified by Peebee, search for a smuggler's cache overheard by Vetra, etc. - One of the best things about ME1 was the "spine" of the game was Therum-Noveria-Feros-Virmire and each gave you a piece of the puzzle to defeat Saren and Sovereign. They were more focused on the main plot and almost all the side missions related to that hub were centrally located and could be visited relatively quickly. Noveria, for example, had two main areas to explore with some Mako driving in between. High 5! Highlighted the words which point to the removed UNC missions They were, from the descriptions, like this. One had upcoming storm and one had a cave where ... argh. bsn.boards.net/thread/14800/me-andromeda-cut-content
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Post by samhain444 on Aug 29, 2018 17:04:55 GMT
I'm playing through ME:A right now, trying for a 100% run...here are some thoughts: - The Galaxy Map was the best in the series and, with the "Skip" button, did not consume much time in that regard. However, the plotting across multiple systems for certain missions got tedious (ex. Contagion, Life on the Frontier, etc). Make the missions specific to the planet cluster so you don't have to keep hopping back and forth. - Another way to best utilize the galaxy map and the Nomad is to make some of the planets were Suvi identifies anomalies explorable. Not a huge area, but big enough you check a couple of things while utilizing the various features of the upgraded Nomad. You could have a wide range of mission-types like, for example attack a Kett Stronghold to obtain valuable intel, explore an abandoned Angaran facility that was evacuated during the Kett invasion, explore a Remnant site identified by Peebee, search for a smuggler's cache overheard by Vetra, etc. - One of the best things about ME1 was the "spine" of the game was Therum-Noveria-Feros-Virmire and each gave you a piece of the puzzle to defeat Saren and Sovereign. They were more focused on the main plot and almost all the side missions related to that hub were centrally located and could be visited relatively quickly. Noveria, for example, had two main areas to explore with some Mako driving in between. High 5! Highlighted the words which point to the removed UNC missions They were, from the descriptions, like this. One had upcoming storm and one had a cave where ... argh. bsn.boards.net/thread/14800/me-andromeda-cut-contentI'm sure there was a ton of cut content, there always is, but especially in this game. Like I said, I have a blast with the game but it's so frustratingly close to upper-tier that you realize that, given another year of development, they would have nailed this one. I know that's easy to say given the nearly 5 years of total development but Mac Walters didn't get this game hyper-focused until they were 2 years out and it's rather impressive what they ultimately came away with given the circumstances. The gameplay, combat, levels and overall movement were inspired and stand in contrast to some of weaker narrative elements of the game. I think, given the extra time, you would have seen a tighter narrative presentation, better character interaction and, yes, those UNC missions. Hopefully they use it as a roadmap for potential expansions/sequels...
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Post by setecastronomy on Aug 29, 2018 18:28:26 GMT
This is hard for me. On the one hand, ME:A's open worlds were a blast to explore and have random encounters in. The sheer bulk of experiences spread over the (6?) open world environs was awesome. I get why peeps bemoan the fetch quest nature of exploration. I never experienced that. Just driving around randomly accomplished 80-90% of quest completion in my pt.
Having said that, ME2 is imo the greatest game of the 360 generation. Ilium (and more specifically, the action setpieces on that world) comprise some of my most cherished gameplay experiences of my life. Or getting Jack from the bowels of a prison ship. Navigating the gangs of Omega to get to Archangel, conversing at first, infiltrating the three gangs, culminating in all out mayhem defending a fixed position with multiple enemy breach points. A legendary experience.
If anything, that is the one thing Andromeda was missing for me: Urban combat. Having gunfights out in the wild open of Eos is cool. Running and gunning through corporate offices, slinging singularities while hunched behind a receptionist's desk, is sublime. So, to answer the original question, I think I would prefer the open worlds, but include sophisticated and futuristic urban hubs with specific missions inside those hubs to take advantage of the environments in a combat setting.
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Post by guanxi on Sept 1, 2018 7:47:38 GMT
It should be both; a witcher 3 style quasi-open-world where each main quest hub location has an open-world bubble zone filled with secondary quest content: exploration is encouraged but it's optional and is simply there to enrich / pad-out the game / lore for people who want to depart from the linear story-driven path occasionally.
Exploration / secondary content is essentially padding - it's the fries & soft-drink to a mcdonalds happy meal and should never be the core focus of any game (see No Man's Sky) but conversely you wouldn't be very satisfied with just a burger would you? Finding that balance is important because at the heart of any great game is a compelling story and memorable characters this is true of even GTA games and strategy games involving other players.
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Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Sept 1, 2018 12:48:04 GMT
It should be both; a witcher 3 style quasi-open-world where each main quest hub location has an open-world bubble zone filled with secondary quest content: exploration is encouraged but it's optional and is simply there to enrich / pad-out the game / lore for people who want to depart from the linear story-driven path occasionally. Exploration / secondary content is essentially padding - it's the fries & soft-drink to a mcdonalds happy meal and should never be the core focus of any game (see No Man's Sky) but conversely you wouldn't be very satisfied with just a burger would you? Finding that balance is important because at the heart of any great game is a compelling story and memorable characters this is true of even GTA games and strategy games involving other players. I think the designs of Andromeda and The Witcher are still drastically different. The fixed protagonist of The Witcher since Geralt doesn't grow or develop means they can get away with open world ideas where with a BioWare game they won't have that option look at the posts about Anthem making the game a little more closed in and how negative having binary choices is being taken.
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Post by SwobyJ on Sept 1, 2018 21:28:34 GMT
No open world, if only because Bioware incessantly bites off more than it can chew (for whatever reasons). DAI, MEA, and we may see with Anthem but eh.
Other things I care more about, keep getting squeezed in. Fine if Bioware wants this, but I don't and my dollars really don't.
Outside of Bioware concerns.. sure? I'm not opposed to an open world in principle.
Leave the 'surveying' stuff behind. Obviously Bioware can't do it in a fun way yet. I want fairly consistent engagement, not the snoring (sometimes literally) I have from driving the Mako or indeed the Nomad (not as bad). The idea of the Nomad setup wasn't so bad, but again, I think Bioware bites off too much and so we result in many many copypaste quests and encounters that add ALMOST NOTHING to the total experience but PADDING TIME. One of the biggest sins of big games IMO, but especially RPGs, even the JRPGs I have otherwise adored.
If an open world on-foot situation happens for the next game, give more of a damn about immersive maps and NPCs because MEA was a step back in most ways. If open world vehicles happens for the next game, tighten the maps to be less of a generic blob to boost through, and more of something where proper andmarks and vehicle combat can exist more.
Other comments/replies: -Galaxy Map concept was at least better than ever, but the original lack of the Skip function killed it, and the map contents themselves were bare-the-hell-bones compared to any Bioware game in a decade. The concept, again, is okay, but if the galaxy map continues, make it more compelling to explore than ever. Also including more of the earlier considered 'manual' ship travel, and we have a winner. Imagine if MEA's map had more interesting sights and lore contained? -I'd have scrapped some scope of the supposed main planets - given that a lot of it was boring copypaste - and had more neo-UNC type locations like that asteroid. I think all this is a victim of earlier development. Vehicle usage could be done in more varied ways through this, instead of yawning through Voeld. You can reuse location assets to an extent for all of these new locations too. -If its a long game, give it endgame/true-ending/whatever. In MEA's case, give it some Meridian exploration and story, wrapping in endgame versions of enemies/bosses/challenges/puzzles, with a more intriguing but less epic conclusion. This is something BW games keep missing anyway, only to put into DLC (Trespasser, Citadel/Leviathan sorta, the scrapped DA2 DLC concept, Arrival?). Put it in the game itself already, if you're marketing 'over 100 hours' gametime!
In summary, I'm not opposed to open world design in principle, I've enjoyed it in games, but Bioware keeps messing up what it should really mean, and keeps giving me too-empty maps with too-little-to-do in them, along with too-boring story attached. There's something fundamental being missed and easily making me want to go back to how it was last-gen. And the so-far hints of Anthem and how it may make a DA4, don't encourage me.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 1, 2018 22:24:59 GMT
I miss the old "Star Map" formula.
Several major hubs, each with its own part of the overall story in addition to its own arc and sidequests. Can be done in any order, and things can change based on what order you do them in.
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Post by fredvdp on Sept 2, 2018 19:45:04 GMT
I think the linear parts Mass Effect: Andromeda were much more fun than the open world areas. If they're sticking to a combat system that evolved in a trilogy of corridor shooters, I think corridor is the best way to go. I would definitely prefer for the larger planets to have a hub that links to the linear mission areas.
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Post by michaeln7 on Sept 2, 2018 20:18:03 GMT
I think the linear parts Mass Effect: Andromeda were much more fun than the open world areas. If they're sticking to a combat system that evolved in a trilogy of corridor shooters, I think corridor is the best way to go. I would definitely prefer for the larger planets to have a hub that links to the linear mission areas. I share the sentiment regarding corridors. I especially liked Drack's loyalty mission, where you could blast around the corner or use jump-jets to bring death from above. Either way, the combat there was more engaging, much like all the loyalty missions were in my opnion.
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Post by michaeln7 on Sept 2, 2018 20:54:03 GMT
If "linear" is like a railroad, where you can go to different traincars and enjoy the scenery but must stay on the path. You can stop at stations for as long as you want, but to 'progress' you must resume the path.
Then "open-world" is like a 2D plane, where you can go anywhere on that 2D plane from any direction at whatever speed you like.
Both have their pros and cons, strengths and weaknesses.
In terms of RPG design on the grand scale, I think that ME2 is the gold standard. ME3 improved on some things, but I miss the loyalty missions. (I know that the plot of ME3 makes loyalty missions nonsensical given the Reaper situation, but I like missions that center around a particular squadmate)
ME2 is like a "net" in that there are linear paths, but it covers a wide area. There are certain things you MUST do, no matter what, but in between you can go to whatever point you want.
Sure, I need to recruit the Doctor to research a cure/defense for Collector paralysis, but I can look for "Archangel" first since he's under attack by 3 major crime syndicates. Or I can get the Doctor first, because I care more about stopping the Collectors than some comparatively petty turf war.
Point being, there is one line I have to follow, but I can do it in an order of my choosing; and there are other lines I can follow, or not, of my choosing.
The best RPGs I have known give the Player a single ULTIMATE GOAL, but also has a few Main Goals and multiple side goals.
ME2 does that splendidly via the "net" approach. The only "truly" open-world game that I feel nailed the open-world feel without losing scope is Skyrim.
I did enjoy Inquisition, and I did enjoy Andromeda. I did enjoy exploring the open worlds both settings offered.
But I find it telling that I keep coming back to DA2 or ME2-ME3.
Long story short, if "Andromeda 2" happens and they keep the open-style, I don't have a problem with that. But I think looking at older, proven techniques is worth a serious consideration.
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Post by dmc1001 on Sept 3, 2018 17:32:11 GMT
Sure, I need to recruit the Doctor to research a cure/defense for Collector paralysis, but I can look for "Archangel" first since he's under attack by 3 major crime syndicates. Or I can get the Doctor first, because I care more about stopping the Collectors than some comparatively petty turf war. I always get Zaeed and Kasumi first. In fact, Kasumi often gets her LM done before a recruit most of the originals on the dossier.
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Post by Phantom on Sept 3, 2018 17:38:40 GMT
this is just me, Quality over Quantity.
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Origin: LogicGunn
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November 2016
logicgunn
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
LogicGunn
LogicGunn
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Post by LogicGunn on Sept 3, 2018 18:08:05 GMT
Of all the Bioware games, the ones I've enjoyed most have been more linear, so if it's one or the other I would go for linear story every time with Bioware, because story telling is one of their strengths and open world game play slows it down too much and really I can do without the fetch quests.
MEA was an exploration game so it made sense to explore but it wasn't done well enough, large open spaces that you have to traverse to pick something up or scan debris doesn't make for a good gaming experience when you're doing it over and over again.
DAI was a fairly big and urgent story, so while it was nice at first, as the areas got larger they got more tedious and slowed down the narrative far too much (close fade rifts, kill dragon, mine ore)...it's pretty immersion breaking when you need to hunt and skin animals to make shelters for scouts when there's a massive tear in the sky.
There were issues with ME2, but the pacing wasn't one of them.
That said, what they're doing with Anthem, story in the hub and exploration in an open world is an interesting solution to this problem.
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Cyberstrike
N4
is wanting to have some fun!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
XBL Gamertag: cyberstrike nTo
PSN: cyberstrike-nTo
Prime Posts: 1,732
Prime Likes: 467
Posts: 1,874 Likes: 3,041
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May 14, 2017 17:50:43 GMT
3,041
Cyberstrike
is wanting to have some fun!
1,874
August 2016
cyberstrike
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
cyberstrike nTo
cyberstrike-nTo
1,732
467
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Post by Cyberstrike on Sept 3, 2018 18:26:35 GMT
I'm playing through ME:A right now, trying for a 100% run...here are some thoughts: - The Galaxy Map was the best in the series and, with the "Skip" button, did not consume much time in that regard. However, the plotting across multiple systems for certain missions got tedious (ex. Contagion, Life on the Frontier, etc). Make the missions specific to the planet cluster so you don't have to keep hopping back and forth. - Another way to best utilize the galaxy map and the Nomad is to make some of the planets were Suvi identifies anomalies explorable. Not a huge area, but big enough you check a couple of things while utilizing the various features of the upgraded Nomad. You could have a wide range of mission-types like, for example attack a Kett Stronghold to obtain valuable intel, explore an abandoned Angaran facility that was evacuated during the Kett invasion, explore a Remnant site identified by Peebee, search for a smuggler's cache overheard by Vetra, etc. - One of the best things about ME1 was the "spine" of the game was Therum-Noveria-Feros-Virmire and each gave you a piece of the puzzle to defeat Saren and Sovereign. They were more focused on the main plot and almost all the side missions related to that hub were centrally located and could be visited relatively quickly. Noveria, for example, had two main areas to explore with some Mako driving in between. High 5! Highlighted the words which point to the removed UNC missions They were, from the descriptions, like this. One had upcoming storm and one had a cave where ... argh. bsn.boards.net/thread/14800/me-andromeda-cut-content
I wonder if that some devs MIGHT (key word here is MIGHT) think is that those kinds of missions would be better suited to the MP mode and/or these would be missions and/or places that Ryder would APEX strike teams too rather than actually the SP mode and might come off as filler.
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Croatsky
N4
Amateur Reporter
Old BSN veteran, I guess.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: CroGamer002
Posts: 1,987 Likes: 4,357
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Apr 23, 2024 13:00:16 GMT
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Croatsky
Old BSN veteran, I guess.
1,987
December 2016
croatsky
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
CroGamer002
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Post by Croatsky on Sept 3, 2018 20:53:51 GMT
Combination of two. Return to more corridor shooting style maps like in ME2, however, keep non-linear approach to complete major quests like in Andromeda.
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