dmc1001
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by dmc1001 on Sept 14, 2018 5:30:54 GMT
CD Projekt Red should've bought BioWare instead of EA. Why they seem to be fine with what they have and I don't think their approach works for what BioWare does so it could have been a black eye for CDPR with what they would have done. Its why I am apprehensive of Cyberpunk for they have a lot of material to try and translate from what people can do with their imaginations and make it into a video game. To me CDPR doing a Mass Effect game would be the same to me as a lot of people have been voicing uncertainty for Anthem for they might have some crossover elements, but there is also plenty of differences. I agree. CDPR has its own unique style. Trying to make everything homogeneous with make for an overall boring experience for everyone. I say if you hate what BioWare is doing and love what CDPR is doing, the obvious answer is to stick with the one you prefer. I like both and to take away a style I like to make someone else feel better about themselves is to punish a sizeable amount of people who enjoy what we have.
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Post by dmc1001 on Sept 14, 2018 5:37:41 GMT
I think we should actually take away choice for everyone. Let a couple of people dictate what books we read. I mean, why have different authors when one author could just write everything? They can decide for us what we ought to like because, after all, one style is all that counts. TV? Nah, just a series of shows that are more or less the same. I mean, who needs BSG when you've got Castle Rock? Castle Rock is pretty awesome, which means people should get just that. Or maybe we could have one type of show for each category instead (sci-fi, horror, comedy, etc.)
In case the message isn't coming through loud and clear, it would be boring as shit to have the same style of games everywhere. CDPR and BW are not the same, nor should they be.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 15, 2018 1:10:31 GMT
Bioware games were at their best with "Star Map" method. As seen in BG2, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect, DAO and even to a large degree DAI.
3-4 major hubs which you can tackle in any order to advance the main storyline. Each hub also has its own story arc and its own side quests, which may also require you to visit other hubs to complete.
These hubs may be quite large, but the game is not actually "open world"
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Post by ahglock on Sept 15, 2018 3:18:27 GMT
CD Projekt Red should've bought BioWare instead of EA. Why they seem to be fine with what they have and I don't think their approach works for what BioWare does so it could have been a black eye for CDPR with what they would have done. Its why I am apprehensive of Cyberpunk for they have a lot of material to try and translate from what people can do with their imaginations and make it into a video game. To me CDPR doing a Mass Effect game would be the same to me as a lot of people have been voicing uncertainty for Anthem for they might have some crossover elements, but there is also plenty of differences. My concern for cyberpunk is the gameplay. I hated the witchers gameplay.
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Post by wright1978 on Sept 15, 2018 19:30:18 GMT
I'd much prefer less open world.
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Post by griffith82 on Sept 16, 2018 3:31:01 GMT
Would open world dilute the story? What can Bioware learn from The Witcher 3 and BOTW? CD Projekt Red should've bought BioWare instead of EA. They are good at what they do but I want that about as much as a ME game made by Rockstar.
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Post by KaiserShep on Sept 17, 2018 5:36:30 GMT
Would open world dilute the story? What can Bioware learn from The Witcher 3 and BOTW? CD Projekt Red should've bought BioWare instead of EA. Putting aside how I think they’d even write an ME or DA game, I’d be wary of even just the gameplay. I hate TW3’s combat to no end, and while CP2077’s gunplay looks better, I sure as shit wouldn’t want an ME FPS. On the subject of Cyberpunk, I’m wary of the writing there too. Perhaps it’s some stylistic choices on their part to go with the aesthetic, but I really hope that what I saw in the demo isn’t going to be like that throughout the entire thing.
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Post by kotoreffect3 on Oct 16, 2018 13:20:16 GMT
Mass Effect has always worked better as a linear game.
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Post by griffith82 on Oct 17, 2018 2:27:36 GMT
Mass Effect has always worked better as a linear game. I thought it worked fine both ways.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2018 4:25:14 GMT
Bioware games were at their best with "Star Map" method. As seen in BG2, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect, DAO and even to a large degree DAI. 3-4 major hubs which you can tackle in any order to advance the main storyline. Each hub also has its own story arc and its own side quests, which may also require you to visit other hubs to complete. These hubs may be quite large, but the game is not actually "open world" Described as you describe it, ME:A also fits. For hubs, it had the Nexus, and an outpost on Elaaden, Voeld, Kadara, and Eos that were, for the most part, required to advance the main story line. Some of the quests did also require that you visit another hub in order to complete the quest. Although it was the most open of the ME games, the planets themselves were unlocked as the player advanced through the story. You had to establish a settlement on Eos and visit Aya before Voeld and Havarl would unlock. Rescuing the Moshae and entering the Aya vault with her would unlock Kadara and landing on Kadara would trigger the meeting that unlocked Elaaden and H-047c.
Personally, I think that games in general have become too consumed with being simply "huge." The games in the Trilogy were about the right length for my likeing. 50 to 60 hours spent in a single game is enough. I don't need (and really don't want) games in my library that seem to want to become a life-long endeavor just to finish once through.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Oct 17, 2018 11:14:29 GMT
Open World worked pretty well in Andromeda
But I would really love the second coming of ME2 where the editing and attention to detail of cinematics is on-point rivaling non-RPG AAA titles like Uncharted.
ME3 and Andromeda and DAI are inconsistent in production value across the experience. ME2 was tight and consistent - I want that the most.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Oct 17, 2018 11:20:29 GMT
Mass Effect has always worked better as a linear game. I thought it worked fine both ways. Yes, quite the contrary actually. I played ME1 excited to go into ME2 which just came out when I began. I favor the action and tightness of production but what I found was that in playing ME1 I was quite disinterested in the main plot until it gets good after Virmire and the final missions. That is, I found myself really getting sucked into the fiction of the world instead and the codex and especially the Citadel side-missions, sometimes UNCs too and my takeaway from that was that I liked the side-content more than the story.
That is a testament in my eyes to the strengths of openness in Mass Effect and I grieved for so long when ME3 did not improve on ME2's style by retaining its tighter action with more open-ended stuff, instead of less of that and then even more action.
Andromeda really delivered on the promise of mixing the elements but they went too far into the deep-end with "Modern AAA design open world" shit. Underneath that surface they still remembered what worked so well about ME1's side-content but it's a shame then that Andromeda's lore is vastly less memorable than that of the original.
Recipe for success then: - Stick to your Andromeda-guns but cut out the fat - Bring over Chris L'Etoile for scientific accuracy and detail-rich world building
- Create a new saga either before ME3 or brave a post-ME3 storyline in Milky Way - Bring back Armando Troisi to be the lead cinematic designer so player-agency is in the front-seat. - Let Mac Walters decide which "pew-pew, bang bang" plot we should suffer through this time to the other writer's displeasure.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2018 15:55:08 GMT
Give me the combat of andromeda with the linear action of 2/3 and I'm a happy camper.
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Oct 17, 2018 16:04:08 GMT
Bioware games were at their best with "Star Map" method. As seen in BG2, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect, DAO and even to a large degree DAI. 3-4 major hubs which you can tackle in any order to advance the main storyline. Each hub also has its own story arc and its own side quests, which may also require you to visit other hubs to complete. These hubs may be quite large, but the game is not actually "open world" Described as you describe it, ME:A also fits. For hubs, it had the Nexus, and an outpost on Elaaden, Voeld, Kadara, and Eos that were, for the most part, required to advance the main story line. Some of the quests did also require that you visit another hub in order to complete the quest. Although it was the most open of the ME games, the planets themselves were unlocked as the player advanced through the story. You had to establish a settlement on Eos and visit Aya before Voeld and Havarl would unlock. Rescuing the Moshae and entering the Aya vault with her would unlock Kadara and landing on Kadara would trigger the meeting that unlocked Elaaden and H-047c.
Personally, I think that games in general have become too consumed with being simply "huge." The games in the Trilogy were about the right length for my likeing. 50 to 60 hours spent in a single game is enough. I don't need (and really don't want) games in my library that seem to want to become a life-long endeavor just to finish once through.
Well, yeah, but the zones are, as you say, too huge, with too many respawning critters trying to eat you/shoot you/assimilate you along the way. DAI had a similar problem, especially with the respawn rate. Both games felt more like an MMO than an RPG in this manner.
Basically, travel became a slog, where gunning down the local wildlife had a higher priority than enjoying the scenery.
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Post by griffith82 on Oct 18, 2018 10:00:20 GMT
I thought it worked fine both ways. Yes, quite the contrary actually. I played ME1 excited to go into ME2 which just came out when I began. I favor the action and tightness of production but what I found was that in playing ME1 I was quite disinterested in the main plot until it gets good after Virmire and the final missions. That is, I found myself really getting sucked into the fiction of the world instead and the codex and especially the Citadel side-missions, sometimes UNCs too and my takeaway from that was that I liked the side-content more than the story.
That is a testament in my eyes to the strengths of openness in Mass Effect and I grieved for so long when ME3 did not improve on ME2's style by retaining its tighter action with more open-ended stuff, instead of less of that and then even more action.
Andromeda really delivered on the promise of mixing the elements but they went too far into the deep-end with "Modern AAA design open world" shit. Underneath that surface they still remembered what worked so well about ME1's side-content but it's a shame then that Andromeda's lore is vastly less memorable than that of the original.
Recipe for success then: - Stick to your Andromeda-guns but cut out the fat - Bring over Chris L'Etoile for scientific accuracy and detail-rich world building
- Create a new saga either before ME3 or brave a post-ME3 storyline in Milky Way - Bring back Armando Troisi to be the lead cinematic designer so player-agency is in the front-seat. - Let Mac Walters decide which "pew-pew, bang bang" plot we should suffer through this time to the other writer's displeasure.
I originally played ME1 at launch. Loved it. I however have found it hard to get through since ME2. Gameplay and exploration sucked in ME1. Story is its saving grace. ME2 and 3 are leagues better. As far as Andromeda yes its big but I love games like that always have.
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Oct 18, 2018 10:38:15 GMT
Somewhere in the middle would be preferable. I like exploration. ME2 and ME3 felt too linear. Hear ya! Hear ya! Andromeda was fine for me but I'd take UNC missions in ME1 style with large areas as in MEA, and smaller hub areas with missions/main missions.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2018 23:54:17 GMT
Described as you describe it, ME:A also fits. For hubs, it had the Nexus, and an outpost on Elaaden, Voeld, Kadara, and Eos that were, for the most part, required to advance the main story line. Some of the quests did also require that you visit another hub in order to complete the quest. Although it was the most open of the ME games, the planets themselves were unlocked as the player advanced through the story. You had to establish a settlement on Eos and visit Aya before Voeld and Havarl would unlock. Rescuing the Moshae and entering the Aya vault with her would unlock Kadara and landing on Kadara would trigger the meeting that unlocked Elaaden and H-047c.
Personally, I think that games in general have become too consumed with being simply "huge." The games in the Trilogy were about the right length for my likeing. 50 to 60 hours spent in a single game is enough. I don't need (and really don't want) games in my library that seem to want to become a life-long endeavor just to finish once through.
Well, yeah, but the zones are, as you say, too huge, with too many respawning critters trying to eat you/shoot you/assimilate you along the way. DAI had a similar problem, especially with the respawn rate. Both games felt more like an MMO than an RPG in this manner.
Basically, travel became a slog, where gunning down the local wildlife had a higher priority than enjoying the scenery.
So, maybe you'd like to retract that last sentence in the post I responded to: since you do seem to want to set some sort of size limit.
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Oct 20, 2018 0:22:02 GMT
Well, yeah, but the zones are, as you say, too huge, with too many respawning critters trying to eat you/shoot you/assimilate you along the way. DAI had a similar problem, especially with the respawn rate. Both games felt more like an MMO than an RPG in this manner.
Basically, travel became a slog, where gunning down the local wildlife had a higher priority than enjoying the scenery.
So, maybe you'd like to retract that last sentence in the post I responded to: since you do seem to want to set some sort of size limit.
I'm not sure if you're trying to score "points" here or not.
But yeah, MEA was clearly trying to blur the line between "hubs" and "open world" and didn't do a great job at it.
Happy?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2018 11:22:10 GMT
So, maybe you'd like to retract that last sentence in the post I responded to: since you do seem to want to set some sort of size limit.
I'm not sure if you're trying to score "points" here or not.
But yeah, MEA was clearly trying to blur the line between "hubs" and "open world" and didn't do a great job at it.
Happy?
My point is that size matters and going with "huge" or, as you termed it "quite large" hubs pretty much naturally leads to "open worldiness" because one is compelled to fill that space with something... and that something in games is, more of than not, random enemy encounters. TW3 had them. FO4 had them. AC Origins had them... and to me, they felt absolutely no different than what they were in ME:A. I walk, ride, or drive by and something attacks me out of the blue... wolves, bandits and griffins in TW3; gunners, raiders, and synths in FO4, and blade weilding bandits and, oh I forget what they called them, in AC Origins. I'd walk, ride, drive by a while later and another something would have respawned and would attack me again. It's not that Bioware is "blurring" any line here. The games are just getting too big for their britches and because fan criticism is at it's height with anything Bioware does, the "heat" for it online is intensified. Of the 4 games I mentioned, ME:A is actually the smallest of the lot I mentioned and honestly held my interest better than any of those. They all had "hubs" and they all had large map areas where the player could just wander about.
I gave it the old college try... tried those games and tried to see it as the group here seems to see it... as something tangibly different. In the end, I really saw no tangible difference other than they took me even longer to get anywhere with the main story... traversing through areas with enemies at much higher levels than myselves just in order to reach a main quest destination and establish a fast travel point on the map. Getting derailed doing a multitude of side quests, reading 100s of side story books, journals, terminals... whatever for little tidbits that really never connected to the main story in any meaningful way... and yes, doing fetch quests... get this frying pan, clear out that band of raiders and bring back X or worse, X many, collect all of this stuff as you wander... loot, loot, loot and, very occasionally, you might find something "good." Oh, a farm for XP or the "good" loot if you don't think things are coming to you fast enough.
Honestly tried to figure out why people applaud those other games while deriding ME:A for doing the exact same thing; and I found out that I honestly liked ME:A the best of that group... had more fun and completed the story (100%) more times. The only time I felt even the remote desire to "farm" in ME:A was when I absolutely needed a few additional credits to buy a single Cobra RPG when, early game, I encountered a main quest I, personally, could not get by without it at the difficulty level I had chosen - insanity. I've never 100% finished any of those other 3, never made it past halfway for TW3 and probably, due to bugs that have been sapping my interest, will never even make it to halfway for FO4. That's the bottom line for me - based on my first-hand experience... ME:A was MORE FUN than any of those other games that I attempted to play in the last year.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Oct 20, 2018 17:38:35 GMT
I'd love a second MEA without "Tasks" and with a consistent cinematic design.
Gaider told me on Twitter that the primary reason for non-cinematic conversations is when there aren't cinematic designers available for them, in other words, BioWare has a problem with writing bloat - they simply put too much voiced dialogue in their games to be feasible for cinematic production. I'd like that to change
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Post by biggydx on Oct 20, 2018 17:53:43 GMT
I think a good compromise would be to have one planet that's generously open world, while a majority of the game is arena sized, linear, or that of a hub world. Once you finish the game and post game opens up, another planet becomes available for open world exploration. The significance of this planet could be tied to a major sidequest, or throughout mentions of the main story.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2018 18:11:34 GMT
I think a good compromise would be to have one planet that's generously open world, while a majority of the game is arena sized, linear, or that of a hub world. Once you finish the game and post game opens up, another planet becomes available for open world exploration. The significance of this planet could be tied to a major sidequest, or throughout mentions of the main story. Yes, I think that tacking on "expansion" open maps could be a reasonable solution. Another would be to place on the side quests behind "doors" that the player has an option to physically enter into that area to start that optional quest (a la Rise of the Tomb Raider and their optional tombs). There is a downside in that it arbitrarily does disconnect them from the main story. You can't really have "mentions of the main story" within them since that would potentially spoil the main story for players who opt to do the side quests earlier in the game than others. You would have to basically lock the player out of doing such side quests until after the main story is completed... and that probably wouldn't go over to well with a number of RPG players.
For example, FO4, Nuka-World is a large expansion DLC with its own map. It was the last DLC made for that game and, as such, seemed to be geared for doing it after the end of the main story... but, it offered no option to complete the DLC and not attack your own settlements... thereby alienating Preston and the Minutemen. However, if done before ever meeting Preston, one can do the entirety of the DLC and then become friends with Preston and proceed through to the "normal" Minutemen ending. Some RPGers like that a lot better since the Sole Survivor's story can become one of a bad guy becoming a good guy rather than a good guy suddenly turning on everything he/she had built. If, however, Bethesda had locked that DLC such that it could only be completed after finishing the main story... that RP option would not be available.
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Post by SwobyJ on Oct 22, 2018 0:04:18 GMT
Linear/linearish main story with visits to various closed to openish locations but an end/post-game open location to get some fun there.
DLC that expands the main story locations into longer term (as this is for fans wanting to hang around for months) experiences, and shorter but weighty and new feeling storylines.
Game acts as a complete package that has some activities at the end but you don't feel gimped in any way at the end or on other difficulty settings. There's no distraction but if EA insists on power-based microtransactions/MP-tie-in (ughhhh) then it can be based around replaying the game like ME3, not grinding boring repeat activity in MEA. The new Tomb Raider is getting mixed reviews but there's a nice sounding feature - you play the game as basically-Lara but after you beat it, you can NG+ as other 'classes' of what Lara could be, and that mixed with higher settings for puzzles, combat, and maybe more(? I forget), means you have opportunity for a varied, though technically 'grindy' experience that perhaps microtransactions could 'help'.
When they get into DLC, as I said, there's time for the devs to make experiences that open everything up while maintaining their own polished stories. When the room to develop, sidequest/grindareas would hopefully have more varied mechanics and designs. ME3 was a problem in there being such set 3-factions of enemies and kinda sucking at variety compared to the past. Half or more of your game would be fighting the same Cerberus units. Lots of opportunity of Reaper sleeper agents, harvested, even the idea of transformed Geth or new species must have been scrapped. MEA got even worse mostly, with Outlaw/Remnant/Kett, though not always. I'd prefer a game take long enough to make that this isn't a decision Bioware has to make, but instead the main game is varied, and the DLC only adds to that variation. ME3's problem sounded like it could or should have been pushed to 2013 release, but MEA's problem sounded like it was more core design issues.
I'm open to your open worlds, companies, but by now plenty of gamers can tell when you're just putting the same/very similar content in just to say its in. I wish I was in a world where a Mass Effect game consistently came every 3-4 years, with a nice layer of content added in the 1-2 years after a release, the main game CONCISE no matter what, and all locations in it polished like hell. But imo this has always been an issue for them. Understandably, as these are ambitious projects. I think ME2 is loved so much (even with its retrospective 'its not so fantastic' outlooks I've been seeing) partially because it did this the best. It had its job and it did its job, even with all its trilogy-sabotaging(?), or weird-plotting(crew leaving Normandy before Collectors attack), or cringe-inducing(Terminator Baby because Sure). It wasn't the clunky first try of ME1, it wasn't the disappointing dropoff of ME3, and it wasn't the negative meme-maker of MEA. When you did a sidequest in ME2, it usually felt like it should have been there, or else was a planet sidequest that didn't take long.
Though I think some parts of it were put together with duct tape, and I don't want anyone to get the idea that I want it exactly, I think DAI's overall idea is closest to what I want for the future. It had stumbles with its Hinterlands and indeed general zone design, Power requirements, aspects of War Table, clearly cut features and content, but I can buy into the concept. You have your forward momentum though you can do a bit more (DAI encouraged to do too much more though), but as you get to the end you have a layer of content there (the big part being DRAGONS) you can enjoy. DLC add layers to that (Hakkon, Descent, again imperfectly).
MEA + smaller and more polished planets, story, features, quests + DLC from small to large size, maybe free to paid, that add to each of the planets/main locations + a sequel tease DLC ... IMO would have been much more comfortable, even with all its DLCness, than this kinda-mess we got, along with its really annoying integrated sequel/DLC teasing.
*the DLC could range from 'grow Eos through a range of activities with a sort of main story', to 'have a free story bit that expands Voeld's secret history'(but its not huge yet), to 'optionally totally-power-up the Nexus in order to do optional end-story cool and intriguing thing maybe having to do with the Remnants'. But point is that the planet/location levels are small enough we even care to see more, but hopefully they're much more polished along wiht that.
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Basquemercat117
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Posts: 182 Likes: 120
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ajew8887
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
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Post by Basquemercat117 on Oct 22, 2018 21:13:21 GMT
i would want something more linear, i liked having an open world to explore the Heleus cluster but the content and pacing didnt match the game. if you see people play the main story line in a 10 hour play through you see the story is paced alot better for that short of a play through.
But i want to see the heleus cluster more fleshed out and better established would in my opinion would be lend better to how they set up ME3 where it is linear but there is a decent amount of exploration. They could set it up to having set levels but allowing the objective to be completed in a open world format like in metal gear solid 5
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michaeln7
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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michaeln7
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by michaeln7 on Oct 23, 2018 13:33:49 GMT
I think the Frostbite engine doesn't work for Mass Effect. The engine LOOKS amazing, but it's meant for setpieces, i.e. backgrounds and such. Racing games that only "need" a certain amount of terrain and have no need for facial animations get good mileage (pun) out of the engine.
As far as I'm told, the Unreal engine is made for RPG's, it's not "as good" for vistas and whatnot, but has all the tools needed or accessible for what makes and RPG an RPG.
With Andromeda, the development team had to fabricate stuff from scratch because Frostbite didn't have it in the package. Considering all the setbacks either unforeseen or forced upon them, I make it a point to respect the effort put into the game.
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