Heimdall
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Post by Heimdall on Sept 11, 2018 1:24:13 GMT
One does not simply request aid from the dwarves... at least not without getting neck deep in politicking and going on an ungodly slog through the Deep Roads. If you’d like some insight into the sort of choices you’ll make during that slog, please see Branka, Caridin and the Anvil - To Golem or not to Golem?But before all that, you’ve got choices, kingly choices to be precise! -Do you choose Bhelen, the progressive last son of the king and backstabby bastard? -Do you choose Harrowmont, the traditionalist prejudiced old advisor but generally honorable guy? - Do you wash your hands of this mess? No, you gotta choose. Please note: There are a myriad of different epilogue cards in Dragon Age Origins, many of which don't hold true with the story as it progresses through DA2 and DAI. To get round this BioWare has said they were merely rumours and not hard facts. Thus, information past the ending of DAO should not be considered hard canon, with some exceptions. Let’s look at the pros and cons: Bhelen - Pros
Most will agree that the most appealing thing about Bhelen is his lack of regard for the caste divides of Orzammar society. If he becomes king, Bhelen will expand the rights of the Casteless, allowing them to bear arms for Orzammar, which according to the epilogue leads to the greatest reclamation of Deep Roads territory from the darkspawn the dwarves have seen in generations. He also expands trade with the surface. Dwarven commoner players will have an additional reason to think well of him, as their sister Rica is Bhelen’s lover. In dwarven society, a child takes on the caste of their same sex parent. If the mother is casteless and the father is noble, then a son would become a member of the noble house and the mother’s family is customarily adopted into that house. As fate would have it, Rica and Bhelen recently had a son (your nephew!) named Endrin after his grandfather. This makes your nephew the heir to House Aeducan. If you’re a Dwarven noble player, you will probably have plenty of reasons to want Bhelen dead, but if you played a male and slept with a noble hunter (lower class woman that seek out noble men in the hopes of bearing a son to boost their status, like Rica) you will arrive in Orzammar to find that your dalliance has produced offspring. You can ask Bhelen to accept your son and his mother into House Aeducan in exchange for helping him gain the crown. The task you have to perform to gain his favor involves revealing Harrowmont’s supposed double dealings with House Dace and House Helmi, supposedly he is offering the same land to both families. This culminates in trip to the Deep Roads to find Lord Helmi and show him the supposed fraud. This allows you to access a portion of the Deep Roads you would otherwise only be able to access in the Dwarf Noble Origin. If you like two handed weapons, Bhelen will regift you his eldest brother’s maul after receiving the crown. Bhelen- ConsBhelen is a fratricidal and possibly patricidal power hungry maniac who will kill anyone in his way. Remember how I used “supposed” in that last section about Harrowmont’s double dealings? That’s because it’s a load of bronto dung, Bhelen falsified the documents to turn House Helmi and House Dace against Harrowmont. He has also been using the Carta, essentially the Dwarven mafia, to do his dirty work including arranging the death of his brother Trian, framing his other sibling, and fixing the Provings. If Branka and the Anvil of the Void survived, he apparently supplies Branka with unwilling “volunteers” to keep the stream of golems flowing. He is neither gracious in defeat nor generous in victory. Bhelen’s first act as king is to have Pyral Harrowmont executed. He then has the entire Harrowmont family systematically murdered by the Carta to the point where the last surviving member is forced to flee to the surface (This goes beyond Epilogue slides, as you actually meet this survivor in a quest during DA2). If Harrowmont is crowned king, Bhelen will refuse to accept the result and attempt to kill Harrowmont right there in the Assembly with his supporters, resulting in his death. Even then, a rebellion bearing Bhelen’s name haunt’s Harrowmont’s reign for years to come. As king, he also eventually dissolves the Assembly and rules as an autocrat. Whether that’s good or bad will depend on your feelings about the Assembly though. Harrowmont - Pros
Lord Pyral Harrowmont is all around a pretty honest and honorable man in his way. He deals fairly and up front with Warden, and he is one of the few to defend the Dwarven Noble Warden in their Origin. He’ll even take in the Dwarf Noble’s illegitimate offspring if you ask him to. To earn his trust, you need to fight for him in the Proving Arena, as Bhelen has been intimidating or bribing his fighters. Frankly, a lot of Harrowmont’s appeal comes down to how much more honest he is compared to Bhelen. Declare yourself for Harrowmont and you’ll be invited to his estate. Note: You can still fight in the Proving as an independent fighter after completing Bhelen’s quest. Upon gaining the crown, Harrowmont also gives you a mage staff from his armory, which came into the family through a noble hunter who received it from a human mage. It apparently spent time as a back scratcher, since a mage staff is pretty much useless to a clan of dwarves. Harrowmont - Cons
Harrowmont turns out not to be the most effective king. He’s a traditionalist and thus bows to the whims of the Assembly, resulting in Orzammar becoming more and more isolationist, with relationships with the surface nations suffering as a result. This pleases the traditionalists in the Assembly, but the reduction in trade generated unrest among the lower castes. Remember, Orzammar is dependent upon trade with the surface for foodstuffs. It doesn’t help that he increases restrictions on the casteless. His reign is defined by isolationism and civil strife in Orzammar. He is able to crush Bhelen’s rebellion with Branka’s golems if she survives and eventually refuses to allow further dwarves to be used to create golems. However, with the demand for golems to fight the darkspawn always high in the Deep Roads, he may or may not have sanctioned secret raids to the surface to capture human or elves to be used in the process.
ConclusionThis will come down to how you want to roleplay it. The material rewards aren’t significantly different. On the face of it, Harrowmont is going to come across as the more moral choice, but Bhelen doesn’t come across so bad if you don’t dig too deep. My personal canon Warden was a politically naive Dalish elf who supported Bhelen but didn’t realize his skulduggery until too late.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2019 16:02:33 GMT
As a firm dwarf player (literally every completed playthrough I've done in DA:O is with dwarves), this comes down to a role-playing choice for me, as you said.
As a dwarf commoner, it's pretty much a slam dunk that Bhelen is the better choice. He's your brother-in-law and makes your nephew his heir. Plus, he makes strong strides for the casteless. And, as a former member of the Carta, it's not like you have been opposed to getting your hands dirty in the past. There are very few reasons for a dwarf commoner to support Harrowmont. The only one that I can think of is if you are roleplaying a Warden who is 'reformed' from their past as a Carta member and wants to see corruption overthrown -- even if it leads to your family and the other casteless losing status. It's a very niche RP option, but one that I could potentially see being interesting. Other than that? I can't think of any reasons why a dwarf commoner wouldn't support Bhelen.
As a dwarf noble, it seems to come down to two variables: How strong is your desire for revenge and how strong is your duty to your House? It is incredibly satisfying to revenge yourself, your brother, and your father by thwarting Bhelen and putting Harrowmont on the throne. Especially if your son is being raised in House Harrowmont. But, it effectively puts an end to the power of House Aeducan. There are less prominent branches of the family still kicking about (as mentioned in party dialogue in the origin), but, after the prologue, you and Bhelen are the only members left of this main (powerful) branch of the family. If you choose to support Harrowmont, you are throwing that away. And, if you have a son, you can agree to get Bhelen to name your son his heir. So the question really comes down to whether you want to see Bhelen "pay" for his crimes? Or if you'd prefer to grit your teeth and cut a deal with him so that your son can be a real contender for the future King of Orzammar.
My canon playthrough, I went with a righteous Knight in Shining Armor type dwarf noble warrior. So he supported Harrowmont in order see Bhelen pay for his crimes. My dwarf commoner playthrough went with Bhelen since her sister and nephew would be nobles. And she didn't mind Bhelen's machinations. My lady dwarf noble also went with Harrowmont. But I am thinking of doing another playthrough of this one where she supports Bhelen grudgingly for the honor of House Aeducan.
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Post by Tekehu's booty on Jan 14, 2019 19:57:33 GMT
Neither, I wish there was an option to exile both and name some casteless random as the king/queen. I haaaaaate dwarf culture in DA (sorry dave and gomez t.t) as for canon choice,I chose Harrowmont since my warden was an Amell and didnt give a damn about politics for his pov Harrowmont was the lesser evil since Bhelen was kinda leery to him. edit. oops I just saw this is a new subforum
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Post by themikefest on Jan 14, 2019 20:03:18 GMT
Harrowmont Why? He has the better looking beard.
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Post by boxofscreaming on Jan 14, 2019 20:11:22 GMT
Bhelen. Otherwise my sister will be upset.
I feel like, as the Dwarf Commoner, Rica is the only person who's always been there for you, so I'd happily put her interests before those of Orzammar, or Thedas in general.
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Post by copper on Jan 14, 2019 22:20:44 GMT
Between the two, Bhelen is what Orzammar needs to avoid dying altogether. It can't afford to be isolationist or traditional to survive as a nation. Even playing dwarf noble, I generally have my characters support Bhelen as the more politically savvy and competent candidate, as well as to keep the crown within House Aeducan.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 14, 2019 22:57:45 GMT
So, a question: Harrowmont or Behlen with an Amell? How can I explain Behlen? He's better to Orzammar in long term, but he's just a mobster... I mostly chose Harrowmont, because so hard to explain Behlen with an outsider. While a Circle Mage can be educated not only in magic... Hard decision.
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 14, 2019 23:19:08 GMT
Thought I'd leave these here for reference. 👌
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As of DAI, Bhelen has officially married Rica - she's not simply a concubine. That says to me that he genuinely wants to make a statement regarding the casteless and his opinion thereof: Rica's not just there to have his noble babies, this "brand" is the Queen of Orzammar. As the gossipy dwarf at the Winter Palace says if Warden Brosca was made Paragon: "the King wants all of Orzammar to venerate his wife's noble house."
He also makes a sarcastic comment about Trian's "speech to the legless boy about hard work and making something of himself", says it's unusual to see his middle sibling "out among the common people", and there's a casteless woman in Dust Town that says, "Prince Bhelen smiled at me" (she sounds almost disbelieving, which I would be too if royalty smiled at me when I was used to being spat on by launderers). Before we as players even learn he exists, Rica says, "he treats me like a real lady... not just someone to tumble and forget." All of these instances together suggest a man who either genuinely takes issue with his society's class system or really really wants the PR... both seem in-character to me, but either way, his actions back up his words. Just thought I'd share, since many people miss these dialogues.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jan 15, 2019 1:32:58 GMT
Bhelen v Harrowmont is the only decision in any BioWare game where I didn't immediately know exactly whose side I was on. I ended up supporting Bhelen in the end, but I never felt GREAT about it. His policies are in line with my own beliefs, and make Orzammar a lot less of a horrorshow, but I have trouble trusting a man who is perfectly willing to slaughter his own family.
It would be especially galling if I had ever played the Dwarven Noble, because my character would have agreed with Bhelen's perspective almost entirely, and would still have been betrayed regardless.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jan 15, 2019 5:21:50 GMT
but Bhelen doesn’t come across so bad if you don’t dig too deep I played the game recently as a human. I agree that a dwarf (Aeducan was my very first play, but is not my canon) can have their own roleplay reasons, and that those won't factor for a non-dwarf. However, I think it's a bit inaccurate to say, "if you don't dig too deep." The very first action required of the Warden in order to prove loyalty to Behlen is skeevy and dishonest; it's doesn't require too much digging at all to be wary of the man. ----- Outside of that, I will elaborate on a non-dwarf Warden's experience. In addition, I will say that, when making roleplay choices I do not rely on meta information. What the epilogue says for either victor does not factor into my decision.A non-dwarf player primarily has their interaction with the citizens of Orzammar to go on, as well as their own gut instinct and morality, whatever that is for the person and the player's roleplay for their Warden (I'm not here to judge). It's important to note that you can't meet with either Behlen or Harrowmont in person until you do a single first assignment, given by their retainer, to prove your loyalty. From most of the citizens, common and noble alike, you will hear rumors of Behlen's treachery, disregard of soldier safety, desire for power, and yes, his more modern thinking with regard to the casteless; you will also hear of Harrowmont's loyalty and duty to their previous king, experience, care for the men under him, and yes, his traditionalism. As mentioned, there is also the example of the initial task that each retainer asks of the Warden -- Behlen wants you to present false documents, while Harrowmont requires that you discover why his fighters have withdrawn from the Proving (a traditional arena fight). From my experience as a non-dwarf player, it seems to me that the decision is based on your character's morality and what he or she considers to be important. You do hear that Behlen is more forward-thinking regarding the casteless, but that comes along with other unpleasant remarks regarding Behlen. So, you will need to choose your character's priority: does the issue of the casteless outweigh other possible negative gut reactions you may have about Behlen? Can you work for a man that asks you to lie and cheat if you believe it's in furtherance of what you believe to be a social justice goal (better conditions for the casteless)? Only an individual player can decide that for him or herself. A final point. A bit of that deeper digging will also inform the Warden that king is not an inherited position; their royal head is elected by the Assembly. While a sitting king may choose a successor among his children and tip the scales in his or her favor, that blood lineage is not required. So, Behlen does not have a right to be king by the virtue of his birth; he must be elected, like everyone else. Picking Harrowmont is not robbing Behlen of his birthright; he never had it to begin with.
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Post by TabithaTH on Jan 15, 2019 13:46:31 GMT
First PT was as a Noble Dwarf, so revenge got the better of me. Haven't played as a commoner yet, but they would undoubtedly side with Bhelen. Also most of my world states in the keep have Bhelen because I generally prefer the idea of a reformed Orzammar.
I also wish that a Noble Dwarf would have had the choice of becoming ruler themselves.
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Post by Ieldra on Jan 15, 2019 14:00:49 GMT
So, a question: Harrowmont or Behlen with an Amell? How can I explain Behlen? He's better to Orzammar in long term, but he's just a mobster... I mostly chose Harrowmont, because so hard to explain Behlen with an outsider. While a Circle Mage can be educated not only in magic... Hard decision. My main Warden was an Amell and chose Bhelen. There were several roleplaying reasons for that:
(1) I envisioned Eorlin Amell as politically savvy. He saw through Bhelen's scheme and chose him anyway. He generally takes the long view and chooses the strategic good over the immediate good if there's a conflict and it's important enough - and Bhelen being a tyrant or not, Orzammar really can't afford Harrowmont's policies. Meanwhile, if Bhelen becomes king, all of Thedas will profit from a stronger Orzammar since it's essential in the fight against the darkspawn. Of course you don't know just how much that's true in advance, but it's not hard to see the problems in Harrowmont's isolationism and the benefit of Bhelens more progressive attitude - and hope for the best.
(2) Having lived in a gilded cage for most of his life, he has considerable sympathy for the lower castes of Orzammar, and Bhelen's policies, if not his methods, greatly appeal to him.
Generally, if you choose Bhelen for political reasons only, it's in the hope that the policies will outlive the man (and may his life be not longer than necessary for that to happen). It's thus a more abstract consequentialist reasoning which may not appeal to many, but it is nonetheless valid depening on how you envision your Warden.
A Noble Dwarf Warden can eventually become a Paragon, which is arguably better than becoming king or queen.
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Post by TabithaTH on Jan 15, 2019 14:22:18 GMT
A Noble Dwarf Warden can eventually become a Paragon, which is arguably better than becoming king or queen.
I know that , but there's no reason they can't be both .
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 16, 2019 14:50:48 GMT
A Noble Dwarf Warden can eventually become a Paragon, which is arguably better than becoming king or queen. Yes to this. Slightly off-topic, but I thought it was hilarious for my Aeducan to come back to Orzammar, win the Provings in her own honor (again - and purely to demonstrate that she, not Bhelen, still had the Ancestors' favor), tell the Assembly that she was given the task of choosing the next king on behalf of Paragon Branka (rather than saying that Branka chose Bhelen/Harrowmont), and then defeat the Blight and roll back into town as a Living Ancestor. Her ego was as big as a mountain and Bhelen's ambitions looked quite petty in comparison.
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Post by boxofscreaming on Jan 18, 2019 23:07:04 GMT
Also, Bhelen being king gets you an extra quest and some loot in DA2!
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Post by Sifr on Jan 19, 2019 1:53:11 GMT
An Aeducan can actually find some incriminating evidence in the Carta hideout that proves their (possible) innocence in the death of Trian, which if you want to metagame, gives you some great blackmail material on your slippery brother.
That said, siding with Bhelen leads to him pardoning you, thereby allowing for the restoration of your name and caste in the Shaperate, meaning that you never actually have to use it. Still, it's nice to know that you do have some dirt on Bhelen in your back pocket, if he ever tries to betray you again.
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Post by LogicGunn on Jan 19, 2019 13:24:25 GMT
If I'm meta-gaming, Bhelen, if not, Harrowmont.
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Post by Wilding on Jan 31, 2019 3:40:17 GMT
Bhelen.
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Post by EZClap on Jan 31, 2019 9:20:42 GMT
Well as power hungry human Harrowmont so Orzammar remains weak.
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Jan 31, 2019 10:44:07 GMT
First time I played through the game I chose Harrowmont, mainly because he seemed nicer then Bhelen now each time I pick Bhelen, because despite his ruthlessness he seems to mean well for his people despite the fact I'm not overly fond of the Orzammar quest line as a whole (it's so bloody long), I still want what is best for the dwarven people, and Bhelen seems to want the same thing
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Post by mousestalker on Jan 31, 2019 21:02:40 GMT
Guard: Thank you Warden, we finally have a King!
Warden: You're welcome.
Guard: Since we're alone, may I ask you a question?
Warden (warily): Go ahead.
Guard: Being an outsider and all, how did you decide which candidate to back?
Warden: Oh, that was easy. Every one here seemed to find elven names difficult. Since my name is Ziv, I figured the less challenging the name the better. So I picked Bhelen. It has one less syllable than Harrowmount.
Guard: ...
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Post by parsival on Feb 1, 2019 20:32:58 GMT
From a role-playing perspective, the Dwarven casteless wardens will have most reasons to support Bhelen, while those with Dwarven noble origins will have most not to. The only other background that I think will tend to have role-play reasons to take a side is the human noble (my own canon) - having your family butchered tends not to elicit sympathy for Bhelen, who it is fairly obvious has plotted against and slain his own brothers. I never even met Bhelen face-to-face in my game - his guilt and corruption seemed clear from the start. From a meta-gaming perspective, he certainly makes a 'better' king, but there's not much to signal that unless your casteless.
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Post by Iddy on Feb 4, 2019 17:57:42 GMT
Depends on what your priority is.
Morally, Harrowmont is the right choice because you won't be rewarding a backstabber.
Pragmatically, Bhelen is better for Orzammar.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 16, 2019 17:52:14 GMT
Zevran's view: Iddy : You can't say, that Harrowmont morally "good". The caste system absolutely morally wrong, and to separate Orzammar and disown dwarves, who go to the surface for reasons, as well. Behlen is a gangster. But his reforms serves the good.
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Post by Guardian on Feb 19, 2019 14:00:03 GMT
This choice was the only choice I felt was difficult in the entire game. I've played it both as a Dwarven Noble and as an outsider. As the outsider, I sided with Bhelen, because he had (albeit a shaky) claim due to lineage. He did things such as abolish the caste system, and helped bring the dwarves (kicking and screaming) into a more progressive era.
But then I did my dwarven noble, and I saw "the rest of the story". Wound up siding with Harrowmont, because she felt betrayed, but most of all, disgusted what Bhelen would do just to become king. However, as the OP stated, Bhelen is not gracious in victory or defeat, and while Harromont is a pragmatic choice, the fact that he dies shortly after becoming ruler, the dwarves are right back to square one again.
A thought that had occurred to me months later after doing both sides is this - despite Bhelen being a murderer (allegedly - while no hard evidence exists, it's pretty hard to not connect the dots), did he do it only because 1) Tristan was next in line and knew that 2) would continue the outdated practices that Bhelen opposed. And I think, despite his rash attitude, Bhelen wanted to be a good son and brother, but was trying to look at the future of his people.
I'm not condoning what he did, but it's just a thought to also mull over. That being said, the rest of the decisions in DAO were so easy to make, yet I recall someone saying that Dragon Age is about a world where there is supposed to be "no right choices" (just some commentary about my opinion regarding DAO, which was great! Just Orazamarr being the "no right choice" option).
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