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Post by Hrungr on Sept 17, 2018 17:35:00 GMT
Well, I don't know about straight-up evil companions. "Extremely morally ambiguous companions," maybe. But I can't think of anyone I would call truly EEEEEEEEEEEEEVIL.
Lots of murderers, though.
Morrigan in DA:O I'd say was straight-up evil, though she mellowed out a little in DA:I.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 17, 2018 17:36:02 GMT
And what of the innocent people that the Venatori and Red Templars killed, turned into monstrosities, or enslaved(so much for her being against it)? Oh right, they don't matter. It's all for the cause. You know what people who think that way are often called? Monsters. Calpernia isn´t responsible for the Crimes that the Red Templars did. Maybe isn´t even aware of them.
Calpernia is the (Puppet) Leader of the Venatori. And even some of the Venatori acts on their own.
Calpernia would have likely killed the Magisters who have enslaved and abused their Slaves.
She's responsible for the crimes the Venatori did, some of which were helping the Red Templars commit theirs thus is an accessory to those crimes. Still led them and was involved. Source? Except she didn't. She let it slide because it was for her goal.
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Post by thats1evildude on Sept 17, 2018 17:49:58 GMT
I agree with Hanako that Calpernia is guilty of terrible crimes. She shares at least part of the blame for for every person killed by the Venatori, along with the Red Templars. She served a good cause — ending slavery in Tevinter — but the ends do not justify the means. In other circumstances, I would say she deserves to be put on trial or executed.
That said, I recognize that a person with her skill and knowledge might be a valuable ally in preventing a far greater calamity, ie. Solas' elfy Armageddon. I also believe she might be the right person to actually reform Tevinter, if placed in a position of power. So I'm open to her being a party member. If Hanako hates the prospect, though, he's allowed.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 17, 2018 17:50:11 GMT
Every Divine is a monster. Every ruler. Every general. And Andraste herself. Welcome in the Thedas! Every single one? Are you sure? I seem to recall on more than one occasion people in those positions who weren't monsters. Not surprised you are defending Calpernia though. However I bet if she wasn't a mage you wouldn't. Yes. Every. (This not means they don't deserve a second chance...)
Samson. Loghain. Blackwall.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 17, 2018 17:51:15 GMT
Well, I don't know about straight-up evil companions. "Extremely morally ambiguous companions," maybe. But I can't think of anyone I would call truly EEEEEEEEEEEEEVIL.
Lots of murderers, though.
Morrigan in DA:O I'd say was straight-up evil, though she mellowed out a little in DA:I. Morrigan's not evil, she never was evil. She's practical, a survivor.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 17, 2018 17:58:46 GMT
Every single one? Are you sure? I seem to recall on more than one occasion people in those positions who weren't monsters. Not surprised you are defending Calpernia though. However I bet if she wasn't a mage you wouldn't. Yes. Every. (This not means they don't deserve a second chance...)
Samson. Loghain. Blackwall.
Okay then. I've never seen you defend those people but I'll trust you.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 17, 2018 18:09:51 GMT
Yes. Every. (This not means they don't deserve a second chance...)
Samson. Loghain. Blackwall.
Okay then. I've never seen you defend those people but I'll trust you. You didn't see I defended Blackwall? Weird. I defended him against you.
I have world, where Loghain alive. I hate what he did, but I also absolutely support his redemption. To recruit him not worse decision, than execute him, in fact, better. But I see people doesn't want to lose Alistair (just like me mostly). And: I never told, that to execute Anders doesn't have sense. I said: I agree with him, him, and support the rebellion, so, my Hawkes don't execute him. To me, killing him, would hypocrisy.
I think, Samson is miserable, but I like his character. (Calpernia's better, ofc.)
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Post by shriekalpha on Sept 17, 2018 18:11:33 GMT
I really want Calpernia to be a companion just for what she would represent. She would be the opposite of Dorian, wanting to turn Tevinter back into the empire it was during the time of the Magisters Sidereal. If she is a companion, we will most likely be given the option to agree and side with her, perhaps even joining the Venatori and aiding their takeover of Tevinter. I feel like otherwise, we will just be forced to help Lucerni, which I don't really want to do.
We haven't had a lot of pragmatic or "evil" companions in Dragon Age. I want more Stens, Loghains and Morrigans. In Origins, I played my Cousland as an ends justify the means character, fully committing to the Grey Wardens after his life and future was destroyed (and I was allowed to, leading to an awesome playthrough), but in Inquisition, I tried to play a power-hungry Cadash, only to be taunted by Champions of the Just, and still loved by everyone except Blackwall and Solas. The setting and companions of Inquistion were not morally diverse enough to allow the player to make "evil" choices, even though the game hints at all the evil you could be doing, without actually letting you.
That may have seemed a little off-topic, but my point is, if we have more "evil" companions like Calpernia, we will have more player choice, as we will not be left party-less by the end game, and Bioware can justify putting those choices in. We are going to Tevinter, if there is any place where our PC should be allowed to make evil choices, it's there.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 17, 2018 18:11:51 GMT
I agree with Hanako that Calpernia is guilty of terrible crimes. She shares at least part of the blame for for every person killed by the Venatori, along with the Red Templars. She served a good cause — ending slavery in Tevinter — but the ends do not justify the means. In other circumstances, I would say she deserves to be put on trial or executed.That said, I recognize that a person with her skill and knowledge might be a valuable ally in preventing a far greater calamity, ie. Solas' elfy Armageddon. I also believe she might be the right person to actually reform Tevinter, if placed in a position of power. So I'm open to her being a party member. If Hanako hates the prospect, though, he's allowed. Here's hoping.
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Post by Hrungr on Sept 17, 2018 18:11:57 GMT
Morrigan in DA:O I'd say was straight-up evil, though she mellowed out a little in DA:I. Morrigan's not evil, she never was evil. She's practical, a survivor. I argue she's evil because you see her true colors when faced with a moral choice that really matters. Not that she really hid it all...
For example... Caladrius' offer to sacrifice the elven slaves in a blood magic ritual for power. She straight-up approves of it and will net you disapproval if you don't.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 17, 2018 19:15:00 GMT
There are no whiter than white characters in Dragon Age universe. Calpernia is guilty of some terrible crimes by association, you can delegate tasks but not responsibility. However, I think it is clear that not one of Corypheus' followers was actually party to everything that went on. He preferred to keep it that way. In fact, knowing that his people might be caught and questioned (tortured), it made sense to conceal as much as he could that did not immediately concern them, so they could not reveal the full extent of his plans.
Also, if you listen carefully to her reaction to the revelation of the binding ritual, she does not turn on him simply for her own sake and it is clear from her words that she did not understand what a monster he was.
Calpernia is willing to talk to the Inquisitor because she recognises "You serve your people." So she regards a true leader as serving their people.
Then after reading the scroll with the binding ritual she says: "He made so many promises and every one a lie. He was to give Tevinter a true leader. If Corypheus would misuse me, he'd misuse them too. I was blind."
Her anger is not simply what he intended to do to her but that she realises his goal was never really to save Tevinter and he would misuse the people she thought they were helping. In particular I do think that when she says "them" she is thinking of the slaves. WoT2 makes it clear that her goal was to uplift all the slaves to be true citizens of the Imperium. In the game she frees the slaves that she purchases and punishes those who have mistreated them. For this reason I do not believe that she would have been aware of the indentured servitude offered by Alexius to the Redcliff Mages, or if she did she probably only thought it would be until their enemies in the south had been defeated. I also do not think she was aware that people were being taken to the Emprise du Lion to be used as fertiliser for the red lyrium farm there.
She was fooled by Corypheus because he was the first person of power who offered her respect rather than contempt for her lowly beginnings. Erathenes only taught her enough that she would not be a risk to his household but then ignored her. At least one of his Magister colleagues only held her in contempt and wanted to use her in magical experiments in the Circle because of the potency of her mage blood. Her time as a slave, but particularly as a slave mage, was one of constant fear of mistreatment. So it was hardly surprising that when this stranger appeared who offered her the dignity she had always sought and promised a better future for Tevinter as a whole, she offered him her allegiance. But she admits she was wrong. In particular she says she was "blind".
The reason I like Calpernia is that she presents a wonderful counterpoint to Dorian/Maevaris. They want to excise corruption from the hierarchy but see nothing wrong with the current system beyond that. Hell, Dorian even defends the system of slavery to you. It is clear his reform of Tevinter does not encompass the uplifting of slaves to be true citizens. By contrast, Calpernia's ideas for the re-birth of Tevinter include a total overhaul of the entire system. She is not trying to return to the glory days of old Tevinter because that was rife with slavery and corruption. This is why she says she doesn't just want it reformed but reborn, back to the very beginning before slavery became endemic and when people ruled on merit, not simply because they were born to the right family. This might be an idealised view of the past on her part but it is actual the sort of reform that I find appealing and so I would love a companion who felt the same way.
I'd also point out that Dorian, who sheds no tears over killing any number of other Venatori, actually approves if you let her go and says that Tevinter could do with more people like her. So clearly, he doesn't consider her a monster.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 17, 2018 22:22:31 GMT
gervaise21 I disagree that there are no white characters in Dragon Age, but that is a discussion for a different thread. As for Calpernia, I have no reason to take anything she says as evidence to support her. She is a person who realized she was on the wrong side, so would say anything she could if it meant it would save her own neck. It's not like she is the first person to do that. Supporters of dictators throughout history used the exact same excuse she did to try to save themselves. As for the slaves, she was absolutely aware of at least some of them. After all, she was with Corypheus when they attacked Haven with those indentured mages. Then there are the other Venatori like the ones in the Hissing Wastes working the slaves there brutally yet Calpernia, whom those Venatori worked for, did nothing to stop it. I agree with the goal she wants, reforming Tevinter from the ground up, however I do not support her means and if the only way to get that is to support her then that will suck. Hopefully there is a new character who wants that we can support. AS for Dorian, his word of support of her means squat to me.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 17, 2018 22:38:25 GMT
gervaise21 I disagree that there are no white characters in Dragon Age, but that is a discussion for a different thread. And who are these pure angels? You made me curious.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 17, 2018 22:44:14 GMT
gervaise21 I disagree that there are no white characters in Dragon Age, but that is a discussion for a different thread. And who are these pure angels? You made me curious. Well, I said this wasn't the place to discuss this but okay to sate your curiosity I will name one: Dog.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 17, 2018 22:47:01 GMT
And who are these pure angels? You made me curious. Well, I said this wasn't the place to discuss this but okay to sate your curiosity I will name one: Dog. Well – and Ser Pounce-a-Lot.
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Post by phoray on Sept 18, 2018 0:20:15 GMT
Dog isn't a character. He's a Dog, and a good one.
White characters: Marric, pre Loghain induced fall Cailan Shiani and city elf cousin Sebastian (until he tries to invade Kirkwall but this seems OOC to me) Wynne seems VERY goody goody Bodahn Sandal
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 18, 2018 6:54:14 GMT
And who are these pure angels? You made me curious. Well – and Ser Pounce-a-Lot. I find it hilarious that your only examples of unambiguous heroes in the DA universe are animals. Unfortunately I don't see much social reform occurring off these two individuals.
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Post by Gileadan on Sept 18, 2018 7:03:19 GMT
Why do people care about Calpernia at all? We talk to her... once? I don't recall her being particularly interesting and see no reason why I would want her in my party.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 18, 2018 7:05:42 GMT
Hopefully there is a new character who wants that we can support I would agree that I'd be happy if they gave us another character who wanted social revolution but I doubt that those of us who want a true liberator will be let off that easily. I liked the way Solas took our companions to task in the main game, in particular the challenge he made to Dorian about proving his desire to make amends for Tevinter's past by freeing the slaves of all races. It seemed at last we might have a new champion for the slaves and oppressed of Thedas. Then we discover he was the real villain after all in his quest to restore the "world of the elves" at the expense of every other living creature in Thedas. Anders wanted to liberate mages from their oppression by the Chantry but then chose to do so by the means of a bomb that either directly or indirectly (falling debris) resulted in many deaths and sacrificing the entirety of the Gallow's mages on the altar of his cause. Leliana wants to free the mages and improve the lot of the poor of Thedas, but particularly the elves. However, if made Divine, the odds are inclined towards getting a hardened Leliana who is fully prepared to have the halls of the Chantry running with blood to achieve her aims. Calpernia fits with this theme. A social reformer with decidedly dodgy credentials, being tainted by association with Corypheus at the very least. So I wouldn't hold your breath on getting a reforming companion who doesn't have some less savoury baggage to go with them.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 18, 2018 7:15:30 GMT
Why do people care about Calpernia at all? We talk to her... once? I don't recall her being particularly interesting and see no reason why I would want her in my party. That conversation comes at the end of her entire sub-plot arc when, if you are paying attention, you should have gleaned more about her than is apparent from one conversation. I have to admit, though, that my interest stems from having read her biography in World of Thedas 2, which confirms much of what I had assumed about the character from what happens in the game. I also read the short story about her "Paying the Ferryman". This does paint her in a much more sympathetic light and helps understanding of why she acted as she did. If she became a companion, I would expect them to introduce more of this backstory into the in-game narrative, for the benefit of those people who do not read the books. Incidentally, the reason she cannot be categorically thought of as dead, if she fights the Inquisitor, is that we never see her body after she jumps off the cliff and her fate is left ambiguous in World of Thedas. The fact that they give the player the option to let her walk free and you don't see her dead on the CoJ path, plus you never see her and only see a few references to her on IHW, leave it very much open for them to bring her back if they wish.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 18, 2018 7:33:08 GMT
Sorry, phoray, I'd disagree with this one. He was planning on ditching his wife to marry Celene. Why was it assumed that Anora was the reason there was no heir? I don't think anyone disputed that Anora was the one who undertook the more tedious aspects of the monarchy on his behalf, allowing him to play the hero king, so where was his gratitude and loyalty towards her? Plus, I cannot think he was so naïve as to think that marrying Celene would not simply legitimise Orlais annexing Ferelden but if he did not realise this then his desire for glory was probably behind the decision more than any real desire to do what was best for his country, however misguided. His constant pursuit of glory was his downfall. Cailan was certainly flawed, if not actually a dark character in the mould of Loghain. Wynne seems VERY goody goody She certainly seems that way in game, although if you read the books you discover she has her moments. Rhys' father was certainly under the impression that Wynne put her status in the Circle above the welfare of her child or their relationship. (He was a Templar prepared to give up everything and go on the run with them for their sake) Sebastian (until he tries to invade Kirkwall but this seems OOC to me) He is willing to invade Kirkwall though, even though the person he had a grudge against would already have fled. Is it out of character? May be that is a side of him that was being supressed by his devotion to the Chantry but was there none the less. Remember he had a whole different life before his family gifted him to the Chantry because he was proving to be an embarrassment to them by his actions. Was that merely just living the high life or something more?
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Post by helios969 on Sept 18, 2018 10:34:55 GMT
Well, I don't know about straight-up evil companions. "Extremely morally ambiguous companions," maybe. But I can't think of anyone I would call truly EEEEEEEEEEEEEVIL.
Lots of murderers, though.
Morrigan in DA:O I'd say was straight-up evil, though she mellowed out a little in DA:I. I would consider her socially inept under the influence of Flemeth's values...she doesn't know anything beyond what was instilled in her and maybe a few books (doubt Thedas's equivalent to Nicomachean Ethics was among them). Her growth was apparent between DAO and DAI...even if she's still obsessed with power and spellcraft (which is why I let her drink from the pool given how that ends up). Calpernia is far more morally ambiguous...which is perhaps what makes her fascinating (well to some of us). I think there's a good chance she's a companion and would make a good counterpoint to straight up benevolent type characters. The best companions are usually the ones that are divisive...bring out the passions in people...which makes Calpernia perfect based on the responses in this thread.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 18, 2018 13:23:19 GMT
And who are these pure angels? You made me curious. Well – and Ser Pounce-a-Lot. I find it hilarious that your only examples of unambiguous heroes in the DA universe are animals. Unfortunately I don't see much social reform occurring off these two individuals. That’s because I wasn’t being serious when answering that question since as I said I didn’t want to discuss that here. 😋 Hopefully there is a new character who wants that we can support I would agree that I'd be happy if they gave us another character who wanted social revolution but I doubt that those of us who want a true liberator will be let off that easily. I liked the way Solas took our companions to task in the main game, in particular the challenge he made to Dorian about proving his desire to make amends for Tevinter's past by freeing the slaves of all races. It seemed at last we might have a new champion for the slaves and oppressed of Thedas. Then we discover he was the real villain after all in his quest to restore the "world of the elves" at the expense of every other living creature in Thedas. Anders wanted to liberate mages from their oppression by the Chantry but then chose to do so by the means of a bomb that either directly or indirectly (falling debris) resulted in many deaths and sacrificing the entirety of the Gallow's mages on the altar of his cause. Leliana wants to free the mages and improve the lot of the poor of Thedas, but particularly the elves. However, if made Divine, the odds are inclined towards getting a hardened Leliana who is fully prepared to have the halls of the Chantry running with blood to achieve her aims. Calpernia fits with this theme. A social reformer with decidedly dodgy credentials, being tainted by association with Corypheus at the very least. So I wouldn't hold your breath on getting a reforming companion who doesn't have some less savoury baggage to go with them. What do you mean by the part with Leliana? In all my playthroughs she doesn't need to do those things to get her reforms in.
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Post by Reznore on Sept 18, 2018 13:50:56 GMT
The main crime of Samson and Calpernia is astonishing stupidity. Samson helped tranquils and Calpernia slaves. Still who see Corypheus, knows about the Golden City and the Blight, hear his stupid plan of going back there...and think "I'm gonna follow that giant Darkspawn, seems like a bright idea!"
I never had to deal with Calpernia in game, so I'm fairly neutral about her coming back but I can't say I'm seeing the appeal beyond the old "she looks good"...I mean she's even more stupid than Fenris sister who thought Danarius was going to make her a magister.
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Post by warden on Sept 18, 2018 13:53:55 GMT
The main crime of Samson and Calpernia is astonishing stupidity. Samson helped tranquils and Calpernia slaves. Still who see Corypheus, knows about the Golden City and the Blight, hear his stupid plan of going back there...and think "I'm gonna follow that giant Darkspawn, seems like a bright idea!" That's the main problem with a lot of plot points in the game, for example Clarel to name another one.
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