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Post by Basquemercat117 on Sept 17, 2018 19:16:16 GMT
To put it bluntly i think the leviathans are best way to continue to move the series forward. In almost any directions you want to move forward with the series for a literary standpoint you can use the leviathans as the antagonist or the main motivation. The big reasons for this are: 1.) they are powerful enough to be an over arcing bad guy. 2.) they are old enough and mysterious enough to go back to mass effects more Lovecraft roots.
These two points work together so that the leviathans can move any mass effect story forward. Here is some examples:
A.) want to have the series in the milky way and after the OT? boom the leviathans depending on what ending you choose either; used the opportunity to become the rulers of the galaxy without the presence of the reapers to stop them (destroy ending), found a way to control the Shepard AI and are the rulers of the galaxy (control ending), or with the new abilities given to them and now they can control synthetics and organic beings equally the leviathans take over the galaxy (synthesis ending), and well the do nothing ending well we all die anyway so who cares about them at this point anyway. This does lead to some cannon issues of if it happens in dlc did it really happen, but regardless it could work.
B.) If you want the series to continue in Andromeda, why not have the leaders of the kett be a leviathan that went to Andromeda billions of years ago, or maybe make the leviathans from another galaxy. or the Jaardan are an off shoot or descendant of the leviathans or the Jaardan were wiped out by the leviathans who released the scourge. Or the leviathans become a fourth player between the AI, the Kett, and the remnant.
C.) Want to tie the OT and MEA? As you explore the andromeda galaxy you find people from MW who were fleeing it because the what ever happened in example A.). and It turns out who ever is in charge in example A.) followed them to the Andromeda galaxy and now you have to worry about them.
Honestly the only other place i cant see them being used in is a reboot but that doesnt count because you are re writing it everything any way so nothing from the new series matters anyway. But i honestly do think the leviathans are the easiest and maybe the best way to move the series forward.
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Post by Sanunes on Sept 17, 2018 23:26:42 GMT
The problem for me is using the Leviathans will be the exact same problem as The Reapers with pulling a MacGuffin to figure out how to destroy them. I much rather have an person or organization that is just angry about something be the challenge and not worry about some special object or person to defeat them at the end.
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Post by dmc1001 on Sept 18, 2018 22:34:54 GMT
The problem for me is using the Leviathans will be the exact same problem as The Reapers with pulling a MacGuffin to figure out how to destroy them. I much rather have an person or organization that is just angry about something be the challenge and not worry about some special object or person to defeat them at the end. <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 23.960000000000036px; height: 3.1000000000000085px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_99111761" scrolling="no" width="23.960000000000036" height="3.1000000000000085"></iframe> <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 3.1px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1138px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_55252224" scrolling="no" width="23.960000000000036" height="3.1000000000000085"></iframe> <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 3.1px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 95px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_40699808" scrolling="no" width="23.960000000000036" height="3.1000000000000085"></iframe> <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 3.1px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1138px; top: 95px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_34915050" scrolling="no" width="23.960000000000036" height="3.1000000000000085"></iframe> I don't think the idea above can work. I do see the Leviathan as a credible threat but it still doesn't get around the possible ending. Something contrived has to be come up to ignore it and a good segment of fans won't like whatever is done.
The Leviathan are a dangling plot thread. Just based on the conversation with Shepard, the reason for creating the Intelligence is so that the threat to organic life - which will serve them - ceases. That's the whole idea. Once that's done the Leviathan move in and take over. If the Leviathan were smart they'd place those spheres all over the galaxy, on every inhabited world. At the first sign of AI arising, the intervene and mind control them to stop.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Sept 18, 2018 23:12:37 GMT
Leviathans are not canon.
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Post by griffith82 on Sept 18, 2018 23:17:22 GMT
The problem for me is using the Leviathans will be the exact same problem as The Reapers with pulling a MacGuffin to figure out how to destroy them. I much rather have an person or organization that is just angry about something be the challenge and not worry about some special object or person to defeat them at the end. I didn't mind the endings but I agree. I don't want that again.
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Post by Basquemercat117 on Sept 18, 2018 23:27:50 GMT
The problem for me is using the Leviathans will be the exact same problem as The Reapers with pulling a MacGuffin to figure out how to destroy them. I much rather have an person or organization that is just angry about something be the challenge and not worry about some special object or person to defeat them at the end. I didn't mind the endings but I agree. I don't want that again. i mean the leviathans arent completely infallible. the reapers were able to beat them without a macguffin. if you look at the leviathans source material which is lovecraftian horror, cuthulu can be killed. many of the elder gods can be killed. there is no magical macguffin that is needed to defeat them.
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Post by Basquemercat117 on Sept 18, 2018 23:49:57 GMT
Leviathans are not canon. where does it say the leviathans arent cannon? The only thing i have ever heard about the cannon in mass effect is that there is no cannon path in the main trilogy or MEA. so i dont know where you are pulling that out of.
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Post by Sanunes on Sept 19, 2018 0:09:40 GMT
I didn't mind the endings but I agree. I don't want that again. i mean the leviathans arent completely infallible. the reapers were able to beat them without a macguffin. if you look at the leviathans source material which is lovecraftian horror, cuthulu can be killed. many of the elder gods can be killed. there is no magical macguffin that is needed to defeat them. Just because The Reapers were able to do it does not mean that the Alliance/Council is at the same strength as The Reapers were to battle the Leviathans nor does that mean that BioWare won't have some MacGuffin that we need to use because we aren't The Reapers. It was never explained how The Reapers won the war just that The Leviathans were taken by surprise by The Reapers so if explained it still might sound like a MacGuffin.
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Post by griffith82 on Sept 19, 2018 1:56:00 GMT
Leviathans are not canon. Yes they are. Wishing something doesn't make it true.
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Post by griffith82 on Sept 19, 2018 1:58:12 GMT
i mean the leviathans arent completely infallible. the reapers were able to beat them without a macguffin. if you look at the leviathans source material which is lovecraftian horror, cuthulu can be killed. many of the elder gods can be killed. there is no magical macguffin that is needed to defeat them. Just because The Reapers were able to do it does not mean that the Alliance/Council is at the same strength as The Reapers were to battle the Leviathans nor does that mean that BioWare won't have some MacGuffin that we need to use because we aren't The Reapers. It was never explained how The Reapers won the war just that The Leviathans were taken by surprise by The Reapers so if explained it still might sound like a MacGuffin. Exactly. That's the whole problem. We arent them so that could be a problem.
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Post by Basquemercat117 on Sept 19, 2018 5:41:16 GMT
Just because The Reapers were able to do it does not mean that the Alliance/Council is at the same strength as The Reapers were to battle the Leviathans nor does that mean that BioWare won't have some MacGuffin that we need to use because we aren't The Reapers. It was never explained how The Reapers won the war just that The Leviathans were taken by surprise by The Reapers so if explained it still might sound like a MacGuffin. Exactly. That's the whole problem. We arent them so that could be a problem. i agree there is a difference in power scale, but i think the leviathans are alot easier to beat than we think. remember the only reason why they lasted as long as they have is because of the fact they stayed hidden for that whole time. they werent actively fighting the reapers for that billion plus years and from what we know they dont have much in the ways of numbers. I think the best way to handle the leviathans is to nerf them abit. make it that their inteligence and their mysterious way make them powerful, not the fact they are all powerful in a fight. They can be made powerful enough to make for a though fight but not hard enough you need the super muguffin to beat them.
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Post by Sanunes on Sept 19, 2018 5:58:45 GMT
Exactly. That's the whole problem. We arent them so that could be a problem. i agree there is a difference in power scale, but i think the leviathans are alot easier to beat than we think. remember the only reason why they lasted as long as they have is because of the fact they stayed hidden for that whole time. they werent actively fighting the reapers for that billion plus years and from what we know they dont have much in the ways of numbers. I think the best way to handle the leviathans is to nerf them abit. make it that their inteligence and their mysterious way make them powerful, not the fact they are all powerful in a fight. They can be made powerful enough to make for a though fight but not hard enough you need the super muguffin to beat them. I don't think you give them enough credit, just because The Reapers beat them doesn't mean they are weak. Treachery does a lot to numbers and we really don't know how many Leviathan are out there now or how many were even there to begin with before the Reapers turned on them. During the DLC we saw three Leviathan take out multiple cruiser level Reapers and ground troops, now I am not sure but I think that was the same as the ones Shepard destroyed during the game on the Krogan and Quarian home worlds. So you need the entire Quarian fleet synced together to equal the power of one Leviathan and who knows how many ships are still around for the council after the battles with The Reapers.
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Post by Basquemercat117 on Sept 19, 2018 6:29:39 GMT
i agree there is a difference in power scale, but i think the leviathans are alot easier to beat than we think. remember the only reason why they lasted as long as they have is because of the fact they stayed hidden for that whole time. they werent actively fighting the reapers for that billion plus years and from what we know they dont have much in the ways of numbers. I think the best way to handle the leviathans is to nerf them abit. make it that their inteligence and their mysterious way make them powerful, not the fact they are all powerful in a fight. They can be made powerful enough to make for a though fight but not hard enough you need the super muguffin to beat them. I don't think you give them enough credit, just because The Reapers beat them doesn't mean they are weak. Treachery does a lot to numbers and we really don't know how many Leviathan are out there now or how many were even there to begin with before the Reapers turned on them. During the DLC we saw three Leviathan take out multiple cruiser level Reapers and ground troops, now I am not sure but I think that was the same as the ones Shepard destroyed during the game on the Krogan and Quarian home worlds. So you need the entire Quarian fleet synced together to equal the power of one Leviathan and who knows how many ships are still around for the council after the battles with The Reapers. The reaper that the leviathan took down on the last mission of the DLC was just one sovereign class reaper, not a smaller destroyer class. But they took out a sovereign class with the Leviathan of Dis. which just proves your point of how powerful they are even more. but that makes them a good potential antagonist they arent a push over. it would take alot to take them down. but they are powerful because of their artifacts and intelligence, not the fact they are strong in a mono a mono fight. the fact no one knows about them makes them a good enemy. on a side note tangent i hate that it took a whole quarian fleet to take it down, i never thought that made alot of sense in universe. granted we dont know how many ships that took part since the fleet was also fighting the geth fleet but regardless it took alot and i have to #fuckingdealwithit. But i like the leviathans as a antagonist because story writing wise they are more versatile than any other option, in my dumbo opinion. and i have always believed if there is a way to connect the universe more together always take that approach. after all that is how the leviathan dlc came to be, it was a little description of a planet from ME1. creating a new antagonist is alot more work and takes alot more justification than using the leviathans.
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Post by Radec on Sept 19, 2018 13:29:19 GMT
The meat Reapers were a contrivance to better explain the (previously nonsensical) motivation of the smoothie Reapers.
The only reason the former exists is because of the need to backtrack and expand on the characterization of the latter.
I'd rather there not be Reapers in the next ME, and by extension I'd rather there not be narrative elements that are extensions of them.
Honestly, were I the galactic community, the first thing I'd do after defeating the Reapers is re-direct an asteroid into 2181 Despoina.
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Post by dmc1001 on Sept 19, 2018 18:35:37 GMT
The meat Reapers were a contrivance to better explain the (previously nonsensical) motivation of the smoothie Reapers. The only reason the former exists is because of the need to backtrack and expand on the characterization of the latter. I'd rather there not be Reapers in the next ME, and by extension I'd rather there not be narrative elements that are extensions of them. Honestly, were I the galactic community, the first thing I'd do after defeating the Reapers is re-direct an asteroid into 2181 Despoina. Meat Reapers? I assume you mean when it was revealed they were made out of the goo of other races? It's not that off from ME1 where Sovereign says each Reaper is a "nation until our own".
I'd also avoid Reapers from EVER reappearing - which they would in a reboot people talk about.
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Post by Sanunes on Sept 19, 2018 19:02:52 GMT
The meat Reapers were a contrivance to better explain the (previously nonsensical) motivation of the smoothie Reapers. The only reason the former exists is because of the need to backtrack and expand on the characterization of the latter. I'd rather there not be Reapers in the next ME, and by extension I'd rather there not be narrative elements that are extensions of them. Honestly, were I the galactic community, the first thing I'd do after defeating the Reapers is re-direct an asteroid into 2181 Despoina. Meat Reapers? I assume you mean when it was revealed they were made out of the goo of other races? It's not that off from ME1 where Sovereign says each Reaper is a "nation until our own".
I'd also avoid Reapers from EVER reappearing - which they would in a reboot people talk about.
I took "meat reapers" as the Leviathans and smoothie reapers to be the goo variation.
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Post by Basquemercat117 on Sept 19, 2018 21:54:38 GMT
Meat Reapers? I assume you mean when it was revealed they were made out of the goo of other races? It's not that off from ME1 where Sovereign says each Reaper is a "nation until our own".
I'd also avoid Reapers from EVER reappearing - which they would in a reboot people talk about.
I took "meat reapers" as the Leviathans and smoothie reapers to be the goo variation. yes and their genus is also known as the Nam Nam
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Post by Phantom on Sept 19, 2018 22:18:25 GMT
The meat Reapers were a contrivance to better explain the (previously nonsensical) motivation of the smoothie Reapers. The only reason the former exists is because of the need to backtrack and expand on the characterization of the latter. I'd rather there not be Reapers in the next ME, and by extension I'd rather there not be narrative elements that are extensions of them. Honestly, were I the galactic community, the first thing I'd do after defeating the Reapers is re-direct an asteroid into 2181 Despoina. Meat Reapers? I assume you mean when it was revealed they were made out of the goo of other races? It's not that off from ME1 where Sovereign says each Reaper is a "nation until our own".
I'd also avoid Reapers from EVER reappearing - which they would in a reboot people talk about.
If They would return, I would prefer a solution that Remove the Reapers as a returning Eldritch Abomination. I am not opposing in using time travel among other methods. or trapping them in a pocket universe.
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Post by dmc1001 on Sept 20, 2018 2:18:35 GMT
Meat Reapers? I assume you mean when it was revealed they were made out of the goo of other races? It's not that off from ME1 where Sovereign says each Reaper is a "nation until our own".
I'd also avoid Reapers from EVER reappearing - which they would in a reboot people talk about.
If They would return, I would prefer a solution that Remove the Reapers as a returning Eldritch Abomination. I am not opposing in using time travel among other methods. or trapping them in a pocket universe. Maybe returning could make them alter events to some degree. They might allow AI to become sort of like cyborgs (at least those currently existing) and allow the same for organics. Would make them similar by not the same. If Shepard AI existed, it could be overrun by a Reaper program to wipe it out. That would just leave Destroy which would have wiped out all of the Reapers (unless some were lurking in Dark Space).
Note that I don't like the above but it could conceivably get around RGB.
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Post by Radec on Sept 20, 2018 13:16:49 GMT
The meat Reapers were a contrivance to better explain the (previously nonsensical) motivation of the smoothie Reapers. The only reason the former exists is because of the need to backtrack and expand on the characterization of the latter. I'd rather there not be Reapers in the next ME, and by extension I'd rather there not be narrative elements that are extensions of them. Honestly, were I the galactic community, the first thing I'd do after defeating the Reapers is re-direct an asteroid into 2181 Despoina. Meat Reapers? I assume you mean when it was revealed they were made out of the goo of other races? It's not that off from ME1 where Sovereign says each Reaper is a "nation until our own".
I'd also avoid Reapers from EVER reappearing - which they would in a reboot people talk about.
Leviathan are meat reapers. The ones run by starbrat and made of liquefied "preserved" aliens inside a robot shell are smoothies. I say this because they're basically the same thing (giant, overpowered cuttlefish with a massive superiority complex). Too bad ME1 got retconned by Leviathan. Reapers are just mindless drones controlled by a poorly written AI. Depends on whether it's a hard or soft reboot. For the former, they'd obviously be around. For the latter, you don't need to address them much. Set it a few (human) generations later. There was a war. We won, they died. Business continues as usual. Don't really need more specifics than that. Oh and we also glassed/flash boiled that stupid ocean planet Leviathan was on because they were huge assholes. They're extinct and can't mind control anyone anymore.
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Post by KaiserShep on Sept 20, 2018 18:08:17 GMT
Meat Reapers? I assume you mean when it was revealed they were made out of the goo of other races? It's not that off from ME1 where Sovereign says each Reaper is a "nation until our own".
I'd also avoid Reapers from EVER reappearing - which they would in a reboot people talk about.
Leviathan are meat reapers. The ones run by starbrat and made of liquefied "preserved" aliens inside a robot shell are smoothies. I say this because they're basically the same thing (giant, overpowered cuttlefish with a massive superiority complex). Too bad ME1 got retconned by Leviathan. Reapers are just mindless drones controlled by a poorly written AI. Depends on whether it's a hard or soft reboot. For the former, they'd obviously be around. For the latter, you don't need to address them much. Set it a few (human) generations later. There was a war. We won, they died. Business continues as usual. Don't really need more specifics than that. Oh and we also glassed/flash boiled that stupid ocean planet Leviathan was on because they were huge assholes. They're extinct and can't mind control anyone anymore. ME1's reapers didn't quite get retconned by ME2, but ME2 made the reapers idiots. That final shot of the reapers heading toward the galaxy made Sovereign look like a major chump.
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Sanunes
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Post by Sanunes on Sept 20, 2018 20:01:18 GMT
Meat Reapers? I assume you mean when it was revealed they were made out of the goo of other races? It's not that off from ME1 where Sovereign says each Reaper is a "nation until our own".
I'd also avoid Reapers from EVER reappearing - which they would in a reboot people talk about.
Leviathan are meat reapers. The ones run by starbrat and made of liquefied "preserved" aliens inside a robot shell are smoothies. I say this because they're basically the same thing (giant, overpowered cuttlefish with a massive superiority complex). Too bad ME1 got retconned by Leviathan. Reapers are just mindless drones controlled by a poorly written AI. Depends on whether it's a hard or soft reboot. For the former, they'd obviously be around. For the latter, you don't need to address them much. Set it a few (human) generations later. There was a war. We won, they died. Business continues as usual. Don't really need more specifics than that. Oh and we also glassed/flash boiled that stupid ocean planet Leviathan was on because they were huge assholes. They're extinct and can't mind control anyone anymore. The Reapers never game across as smart to me, just a creature with a superiority complex that thinks its special and nobody can understand them so they just do the same thing over and over and over again because "we are smarter then you".
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Basquemercat117
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Post by Basquemercat117 on Sept 20, 2018 20:24:11 GMT
Leviathan are meat reapers. The ones run by starbrat and made of liquefied "preserved" aliens inside a robot shell are smoothies. I say this because they're basically the same thing (giant, overpowered cuttlefish with a massive superiority complex). Too bad ME1 got retconned by Leviathan. Reapers are just mindless drones controlled by a poorly written AI. Depends on whether it's a hard or soft reboot. For the former, they'd obviously be around. For the latter, you don't need to address them much. Set it a few (human) generations later. There was a war. We won, they died. Business continues as usual. Don't really need more specifics than that. Oh and we also glassed/flash boiled that stupid ocean planet Leviathan was on because they were huge assholes. They're extinct and can't mind control anyone anymore. The Reapers never game across as smart to me, just a creature with a superiority complex that thinks its special and nobody can understand them so they just do the same thing over and over and over again because "we are smarter then you". My big issue of the reapers game plan was that they were supposedly preserving things. Let me use an analogy to describe their plan. This may be abit political but it brings the whole point together. Lets say the US government declares: "we need to take away all the guns to pererve them for historical sake." US citizens dont like that and fight back, so the US government either uses the taken guns to enforce their rule or melts done the guns to make their own guns to enforce rule. and as time moves on the taken guns get destroyed from combat or just general use. Now just replace guns with organic species and US government with the reapers and you realize how stupid the plan is.
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Basquemercat117
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Post by Basquemercat117 on Sept 20, 2018 20:25:47 GMT
Meat Reapers? I assume you mean when it was revealed they were made out of the goo of other races? It's not that off from ME1 where Sovereign says each Reaper is a "nation until our own".
I'd also avoid Reapers from EVER reappearing - which they would in a reboot people talk about.
Leviathan are meat reapers. The ones run by starbrat and made of liquefied "preserved" aliens inside a robot shell are smoothies. I say this because they're basically the same thing (giant, overpowered cuttlefish with a massive superiority complex). Too bad ME1 got retconned by Leviathan. Reapers are just mindless drones controlled by a poorly written AI. Depends on whether it's a hard or soft reboot. For the former, they'd obviously be around. For the latter, you don't need to address them much. Set it a few (human) generations later. There was a war. We won, they died. Business continues as usual. Don't really need more specifics than that. Oh and we also glassed/flash boiled that stupid ocean planet Leviathan was on because they were huge assholes. They're extinct and can't mind control anyone anymore. See i dont want the reapers to come back. That why i said in the OP the leviathans could be the antagonist not the reapers.
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Cyberstrike
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Post by Cyberstrike on Sept 20, 2018 21:09:27 GMT
Leviathans are not canon. where does it say the leviathans arent cannon? The only thing i have ever heard about the cannon in mass effect is that there is no cannon path in the main trilogy or MEA. so i dont know where you are pulling that out of.
Honestly I think revealing the origins of the Reapers was one the stupidest things in MET and also I'm sick of Lovecraft and his stupid tentacle monster gods.
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