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Post by Catilina on Sept 28, 2018 12:01:07 GMT
riverdaleswhiteflash You know, how a dictatorship's censorship works? The whispering propaganda lives, everyone has the pieces of information, but half of them can't believe ("it can't be true", if S/HE –the Dictator, the Divine– would know about, never would let it to happen!), the other half do nothing, because of the fear and they wait. But this is still a powder keg: if blow up, whatever is smart and organized, or not, can cause a rebellion. And when it happens, it's not (necessarily) based on the logic it's rather based on the raw anger and fear. The DA's story, especially the mage rebellion is poorly written, just like the finish in the Inquisition. Fiona's character in the Inquisition is very unbelievable. But happened what happened, Anders and Fiona both had their role in the rebellion.
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Post by Iddy on Sept 28, 2018 12:14:25 GMT
We're probably putting way more thought into this than all of Bioware combined did, and trying to understand things more deeply than they were meant to be understood... ... but why stop now?
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Sept 28, 2018 12:28:21 GMT
riverdaleswhiteflash You know, how a dictatorship's censorship works? The whispering propaganda lives, everyone has the pieces of information, but half of them can't believe ("it can't be true", if S/HE –the Dictator, the Divine– would know about, never would let it to happen!), the other half do nothing, because of the fear and they wait. But this is still a powder keg: if blow up, whatever is smart and organized, or not, can cause a rebellion. And when it happens, it's not (necessarily) based on the logic it's rather based on the raw anger and fear. But how do we know the templars were even trying, apart from when they stopped the College of Enchanters from meeting after the failed attempt at voting for independence? I can't argue that it was well written. But anyway, getting back to the original topic, how do we know that Anders' role was an essential one?
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Post by michaeln7 on Sept 28, 2018 14:17:47 GMT
I'm of the persuasion that the Mage Rebellion was already happening, in a festering way. Anders "merely" detonated it.
From a heartless, ruthlessly pragmatic perspective, there is an argument to be made that Anders actually did Thedas a favor, in a roundabout way. Everyone got the "excuse" they needed to make their feelings known, and given the Inquisitor's relative swiftness in resolving the matter...
There is no victory in war, only damage control.
If not Anders, then there would have been someone else doing it. The fact that Anders had Justice (who became Vengeance) just makes him the prime candidate to incite such things.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 28, 2018 16:37:41 GMT
The DA's story, especially the mage rebellion is poorly written, just like the finish in the Inquisition. Fiona's character in the Inquisition is very unbelievable. Of course the real problem, if DG is to be believed, is that the escalation of mage rebellion should have been dealt with in a DLC to DA2. That is how the story-line was originally written, so of course, in that scenario Anders was totally responsible for it occurring. Asunder was written it would seem partly to fill the gap left by the cancellation of the DLC in order to explain why the rebellion wasn't already underway. There seems also the general assumption in the writing that there were no survivors of the illegal annulment except Hawke, Anders (if spared) and Bethany (if still alive). It always really narked me that I went out of my way to put my party between the mages and the Templars and then when Orsino still went nuts, I clearly saw them running away. So there should have been a considerable number of mages from the Gallows who went on the run immediately after. Yet they are never mentioned again. Where did all the mages who escaped by means of the Mage Underground end up? If the rebellion had happened straight after the destruction of the Chantry then it can reasonably be assumed that they formed the first rebel group and probably did flee to Denerim and the protection of the monarch there. I have to assume that since the Circles did not immediately rebel then the survivors from Kirkwall must have fled north instead. May be they did join the Venatori.
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Post by Templar Knight on Sept 28, 2018 16:57:37 GMT
I just remembered another odd discrepancy between Asunder and the game. When reading Asunder I presumed that the real Cole was an Orlesian peasant, considering he was taken to the White Spire in Val Royeaux. The game seems to treat him as Fereldan. From what I remember of his backstory he was terrified because the templars wouldn't tell him anything - they just grabbed him, put a sack over his head and took him to the Circle tower. Okay, but then why did these templars decide to ignore both Kinloch Hold and the Montsimmard Circle Tower? It would be one thing if they'd at least initially taken him to one of those towers and it was decided to transfer him elsewhere, but no, apparently the templars grabbed him in Ferelden and decided to travel directly (apparently without communicating with anyone, as Cole knew nothing about what was going on) weeks all the way to Val Royeaux, all for the sake of a fairly mundane apostate.
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Post by Templar Knight on Sept 28, 2018 16:58:56 GMT
The DA's story, especially the mage rebellion is poorly written, just like the finish in the Inquisition. Fiona's character in the Inquisition is very unbelievable. Of course the real problem, if DG is to be believed, is that the escalation of mage rebellion should have been dealt with in a DLC to DA2. That is how the story-line was originally written, so of course, in that scenario Anders was totally responsible for it occurring. Asunder was written it would seem partly to fill the gap left by the cancellation of the DLC in order to explain why the rebellion wasn't already underway. There seems also the general assumption in the writing that there were no survivors of the illegal annulment except Hawke, Anders (if spared) and Bethany (if still alive). It always really narked me that I went out of my way to put my party between the mages and the Templars and then when Orsino still went nuts, I clearly saw them running away. So there should have been a considerable number of mages from the Gallows who went on the run immediately after. Yet they are never mentioned again. Where did all the mages who escaped by means of the Mage Underground end up? If the rebellion had happened straight after the destruction of the Chantry then it can reasonably be assumed that they formed the first rebel group and probably did flee to Denerim and the protection of the monarch there. I have to assume that since the Circles did not immediately rebel then the survivors from Kirkwall must have fled north instead. May be they did join the Venatori. The mages in Solas' personal quest were members of the Kirkwall Circle of Magi, weren't they?
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Post by Catilina on Sept 28, 2018 17:13:21 GMT
Of course the real problem, if DG is to be believed, is that the escalation of mage rebellion should have been dealt with in a DLC to DA2. That is how the story-line was originally written, so of course, in that scenario Anders was totally responsible for it occurring. Asunder was written it would seem partly to fill the gap left by the cancellation of the DLC in order to explain why the rebellion wasn't already underway.
There seems also the general assumption in the writing that there were no survivors of the illegal annulment except Hawke, Anders (if spared) and Bethany (if still alive). It always really narked me that I went out of my way to put my party between the mages and the Templars and then when Orsino still went nuts, I clearly saw them running away. So there should have been a considerable number of mages from the Gallows who went on the run immediately after. Yet they are never mentioned again. Where did all the mages who escaped by means of the Mage Underground end up? If the rebellion had happened straight after the destruction of the Chantry then it can reasonably be assumed that they formed the first rebel group and probably did flee to Denerim and the protection of the monarch there. I have to assume that since the Circles did not immediately rebel then the survivors from Kirkwall must have fled north instead. May be they did join the Venatori. The mages in Solas' personal quest were members of the Kirkwall Circle of Magi, weren't they? Why would? They are mages from any Circle – we don't know, where from exactly.
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Post by Templar Knight on Sept 28, 2018 19:02:27 GMT
The mages in Solas' personal quest were members of the Kirkwall Circle of Magi, weren't they? Why would? They are mages from any Circle – we don't know, where from exactly. I seem to remember one of them trying to reassure Solas by saying he was one of the Kirkwall Circle's experts on summoning, or something vaguely along those lines. (A little busy to look up a video right now to see exactly what he said.) I seem to remember watching a Let's Player who groaned at this line and said "Kirkwall, of course". Or was that me who groaned while watching it?
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Post by Catilina on Sept 28, 2018 19:09:48 GMT
Why would? They are mages from any Circle – we don't know, where from exactly. I seem to remember one of them trying to reassure Solas by saying he was one of the Kirkwall Circle's experts on summoning, or something vaguely along those lines. (A little busy to look up a video right now to see exactly what he said.) I seem to remember watching a Let's Player who groaned at this line and said "Kirkwall, of course". Or was that me who groaned while watching it? And you're right. My mistake. I found it: Yes, he was the Circle "demon/summoning expert". Anders was not right: the Circles aren't the best on the education/training... The Circle's education has much bullshit. For example how they handle the spirits.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Sept 30, 2018 7:07:56 GMT
I seem to remember one of them trying to reassure Solas by saying he was one of the Kirkwall Circle's experts on summoning, or something vaguely along those lines. (A little busy to look up a video right now to see exactly what he said.) I seem to remember watching a Let's Player who groaned at this line and said "Kirkwall, of course". Or was that me who groaned while watching it? And you're right. My mistake. I found it: Yes, he was the Circle "demon/summoning expert". Anders was not right: the Circles aren't the best on the education/training... The Circle's education has much bullshit. For example how they handle the spirits. But Rhys is Circle trained too, and he handles spirits far better, right? I hadn't gotten the impression that this guy was using official Circle techniques and knowledge. I'd thought he was a maleficar practicing blood magic out of sight of the Templars, who was decent at getting demons to appear before him (and maybe even at getting actual demons to attack people other than him) but otherwise much less competent than he thought he was. I'd thought that was why he couldn't even really tell whether or not what he was using really was a demon. (That that's possible at all says bad things about the system, but not quite the same bad things that this guy being one of the better summoners in the system would.)
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Post by Catilina on Sept 30, 2018 7:52:20 GMT
And you're right. My mistake. I found it: Yes, he was the Circle "demon/summoning expert". Anders was not right: the Circles aren't the best on the education/training... The Circle's education has much bullshit. For example how they handle the spirits. But Rhys is Circle trained too, and he handles spirits far better, right? I hadn't gotten the impression that this guy was using official Circle techniques and knowledge. I'd thought he was a maleficar practicing blood magic out of sight of the Templars, who was decent at getting demons to appear before him (and maybe even at getting actual demons to attack people other than him) but otherwise much less competent than he thought he was. I'd thought that was why he couldn't even really tell whether or not what he was using really was a demon. (That that's possible at all says bad things about the system, but not quite the same bad things that this guy being one of the better summoners in the system would.) Rhys is a medium/spirit healer. They have a better relationship with the Fade-creatures and know better their nature. But even Rhys and Anders have limited knowledge. This mage just a summoner. I don't think, he concerned about the "demons" nature. Just summoned them and used them. Vivienne also absolutely ignorant in the topic of the spirit/demon. Summoning demons isn't blood magic. If you played the Origins, you were able to try the summoning circles, in Calenhad Tower.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Sept 30, 2018 9:00:28 GMT
But Rhys is Circle trained too, and he handles spirits far better, right?
I hadn't gotten the impression that this guy was using official Circle techniques and knowledge. I'd thought he was a maleficar practicing blood magic out of sight of the Templars, who was decent at getting demons to appear before him (and maybe even at getting actual demons to attack people other than him) but otherwise much less competent than he thought he was. I'd thought that was why he couldn't even really tell whether or not what he was using really was a demon. (That that's possible at all says bad things about the system, but not quite the same bad things that this guy being one of the better summoners in the system would.) Rhys is a medium/spirit healer. They have a better relationship with the Fade-creatures and know better their nature. But even Rhys and Anders have limited knowledge. This mage just a summoner. I don't think, he concerned about the "demons" nature. Just summoned them and used them. Vivienne also absolutely ignorant in the topic of the spirit/demon. The fact remains that Rhys is a Circle-trained medium. This mere summoner, who simply summons and uses the "demon," and either didn't realize he was binding a pacifist Wisdom Spirit or just didn't care? He might be the best in Kirkwall (though on the other hand we only have his own word for that) but he is not the best the Circle system has produced. And whatever Rhys's and Anders limitations, they have a better handle on the nature of spirits than this guy. (Maybe not nearly enough of one in Anders' case, but are we sure anyone short of a Solas-level expert or a Vivienne-level paranoiac would have forseen Justice being warped by Anders anger? I don't think we know how often spirits change, or how often it happens while they're possessing someone. I'd imagine mediums probably know it can happen, unless Anders said he didn't know it was possible, but are we sure Anders should have known this would cause it?) Vivienne isn't nearly as knowledgeable about spirits as Rhys is, and as you say she's even a bit ignorant, but we see no sign that she's supposed to be their best (or even that good by Circle standards) in that one field. You don't judge a school's Chemistry department by quizzing someone who's working towards an Art History degree. And what she knows about spirits and demons (that the latter is malevolent and dangerously manipulative, and that the former might be the latter in disguise) does seem like it'll get you by if you know you aren't an expert and don't want to be one. Summoning spirits isn't blood magic, no. But I've never heard of summoning demons outside the context of blood magic. But I'm not sure why the two would be different arts... unless the blood magic is only required to force it to obey you once it arrives, and a spirit is less likely to try to kill you without provocation and more likely to do what you ask without compulsion as long as you limit your requests to things it's already inclined to do? It would explain why Solas says he can't take control of Cole because he doesn't use blood magic, since Cole has mostly reverted to being a spirit of Compassion by this point.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 30, 2018 9:34:18 GMT
Rhys is a medium/spirit healer. They have a better relationship with the Fade-creatures and know better their nature. But even Rhys and Anders have limited knowledge. This mage just a summoner. I don't think, he concerned about the "demons" nature. Just summoned them and used them. Vivienne also absolutely ignorant in the topic of the spirit/demon. The fact remains that Rhys is a Circle-trained medium. This mere summoner, who simply summons and uses the "demon," and either didn't realize he was binding a pacifist Wisdom Spirit or just didn't care? He might be the best in Kirkwall (though on the other hand we only have his own word for that) but he is not the best the Circle system has produced. And whatever Rhys's and Anders limitations, they have a better handle on the nature of spirits than this guy. (Maybe not nearly enough of one in Anders' case, but are we sure anyone short of a Solas-level expert or a Vivienne-level paranoiac would have forseen Justice being warped by Anders anger? I don't think we know how often spirits change, or how often it happens while they're possessing someone. I'd imagine mediums probably know it can happen, unless Anders said he didn't know it was possible, but are we sure Anders should have known this would cause it?) Vivienne isn't nearly as knowledgeable about spirits as Rhys is, and as you say she's even a bit ignorant, but we see no sign that she's supposed to be their best (or even that good by Circle standards) in that one field. You don't judge a school's Chemistry department by quizzing someone who's working towards an Art History degree. And what she knows about spirits and demons (that the latter is malevolent and dangerously manipulative, and that the former might be the latter in disguise) does seem like it'll get you by if you know you aren't an expert and don't want to be one.Summoning spirits isn't blood magic, no. But I've never heard of summoning demons outside the context of blood magic. But I'm not sure why the two would be different arts... unless the blood magic is only required to force it to obey you once it arrives, and a spirit is less likely to try to kill you without provocation and more likely to do what you ask without compulsion as long as you limit your requests to things it's already inclined to do? It would explain why Solas says he can't take control of Cole because he doesn't use blood magic, since Cole has mostly reverted to being a spirit of Compassion by this point. Anders knew, that a spirit can change, even, that the demons are spirits. But probably didn't know, his personality how influences Justices'. Anders: Why do spirits seek out mages? I've always wondered. Justice: You speak of demons. I am not a demon. Anders: Aren't demons simply spirits with unique and sparkling personalities?Justice: They have been perverted by their desires.Anders: But what do they want from mages? Justice: Perhaps they wish the same as I: silence. ─────── Anders: Are you saying that you could become a demon, Justice? Justice: I said no such thing. Anders: You said that demons were spirits perverted by their desires. Justice: I have no such desires. Anders: You must have some desires... Justice: I have none! Desist your questions! Summoning spirits or demosn with the summoning circle is same act (like the spirits/demons are same, just the purpose is different and the desires). Rhis, Anders and the Spirit Healers call the spirits and ask for their help. The summoners forces the spirits and this force can turn them into demon. The circle binds them. But this isn't blood magic.Not mentioned, the mage asks for lyrium, for fight that demon. A blood mage don't need it. And can bind the demons without a cirle.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Sept 30, 2018 11:40:05 GMT
The fact remains that Rhys is a Circle-trained medium. This mere summoner, who simply summons and uses the "demon," and either didn't realize he was binding a pacifist Wisdom Spirit or just didn't care? He might be the best in Kirkwall (though on the other hand we only have his own word for that) but he is not the best the Circle system has produced. And whatever Rhys's and Anders limitations, they have a better handle on the nature of spirits than this guy. (Maybe not nearly enough of one in Anders' case, but are we sure anyone short of a Solas-level expert or a Vivienne-level paranoiac would have forseen Justice being warped by Anders anger? I don't think we know how often spirits change, or how often it happens while they're possessing someone. I'd imagine mediums probably know it can happen, unless Anders said he didn't know it was possible, but are we sure Anders should have known this would cause it?)
Vivienne isn't nearly as knowledgeable about spirits as Rhys is, and as you say she's even a bit ignorant, but we see no sign that she's supposed to be their best (or even that good by Circle standards) in that one field. You don't judge a school's Chemistry department by quizzing someone who's working towards an Art History degree. And what she knows about spirits and demons (that the latter is malevolent and dangerously manipulative, and that the former might be the latter in disguise) does seem like it'll get you by if you know you aren't an expert and don't want to be one.Summoning spirits isn't blood magic, no. But I've never heard of summoning demons outside the context of blood magic. But I'm not sure why the two would be different arts... unless the blood magic is only required to force it to obey you once it arrives, and a spirit is less likely to try to kill you without provocation and more likely to do what you ask without compulsion as long as you limit your requests to things it's already inclined to do? It would explain why Solas says he can't take control of Cole because he doesn't use blood magic, since Cole has mostly reverted to being a spirit of Compassion by this point. Anders knew, that a spirit can change, even, that the demons are spirits. But probably didn't know, his personality how influences Justices'. Anders: Why do spirits seek out mages? I've always wondered. Justice: You speak of demons. I am not a demon. Anders: Aren't demons simply spirits with unique and sparkling personalities?Justice: They have been perverted by their desires.Anders: But what do they want from mages? Justice: Perhaps they wish the same as I: silence. ─────── Anders: Are you saying that you could become a demon, Justice? Justice: I said no such thing. Anders: You said that demons were spirits perverted by their desires. Justice: I have no such desires. Anders: You must have some desires... Justice: I have none! Desist your questions! Summoning spirits or demosn with the summoning circle is same act (like the spirits/demons are same, just the purpose is different and the desires). Rhis, Anders and the Spirit Healers call the spirits and ask for their help. The summoners forces the spirits and this force can turn them into demon. The circle binds them. But this isn't blood magic.And yet I've never heard of anyone but blood mages using demons, and Dorian mentions it in the same context as various forms of what he calls "real blood magic." And Solas says that he can't bind Cole because he doesn't practice blood magic. So even though the stuff the Circle permits doesn't require blood, given all the rest of that there almost has to be some limit somewhere in the process that magic without blood can't take the mage past, and it's probably one that's more likely to be relevant if what you're dealing with is a darker spirit.No mage needs it: all it does for an actual mage is grant them more power than they already have. But any of them can benefit from it, including a mage who has used blood but would just rather not at the moment... or one who plans to throw blood into the mix too. Don't forget that Dorian says the magi in the Tevinter Imperium use enough of it that they couldn't maintain an army of empowered Templars even if they wanted one, and that the ritual the magisters used to breach the Fade was said to require logistically and financially ridiculous quantities of both. Are we sure it makes the binding circle entirely superfluous? It might still do something.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 30, 2018 12:22:11 GMT
Anders knew, that a spirit can change, even, that the demons are spirits. But probably didn't know, his personality how influences Justices'. Anders: Why do spirits seek out mages? I've always wondered. Justice: You speak of demons. I am not a demon. Anders: Aren't demons simply spirits with unique and sparkling personalities?Justice: They have been perverted by their desires.Anders: But what do they want from mages? Justice: Perhaps they wish the same as I: silence. ─────── Anders: Are you saying that you could become a demon, Justice? Justice: I said no such thing. Anders: You said that demons were spirits perverted by their desires. Justice: I have no such desires. Anders: You must have some desires... Justice: I have none! Desist your questions! Summoning spirits or demosn with the summoning circle is same act (like the spirits/demons are same, just the purpose is different and the desires). Rhis, Anders and the Spirit Healers call the spirits and ask for their help. The summoners forces the spirits and this force can turn them into demon. The circle binds them. But this isn't blood magic.And yet I've never heard of anyone but blood mages using demons, and Dorian mentions it in the same context as various forms of what he calls "real blood magic." And Solas says that he can't bind Cole because he doesn't practice blood magic. So even though the stuff the Circle permits doesn't require blood, given all the rest of that there almost has to be some limit somewhere in the process that magic without blood can't take the mage past, and it's probably one that's more likely to be relevant if what you're dealing with is a darker spirit.No mage needs it: all it does for an actual mage is grant them more power than they already have. But any of them can benefit from it, including a mage who has used blood but would just rather not at the moment... or one who plans to throw blood into the mix too. Don't forget that Dorian says the magi in the Tevinter Imperium use enough of it that they couldn't maintain an army of empowered Templars even if they wanted one, and that the ritual the magisters used to breach the Fade was said to require logistically and financially ridiculous quantities of both.Are we sure it makes the binding circle entirely superfluous? It might still do something. The summoning spirits/demons isn't blood magic only. Did you see Erimond's Grey Wardens? They didn't use summoning circle. Neither the other blood mages we met in game. But of course, you can doubt my words and ignore the existence of the summoning tools in the Kinloch Hold.
Of course, blood mages also use lyrium, but they can use their blood, if they're out of lyrium.
This mage can be a blood mage, it's not excluded, but nothing proves, that he's a blood mage.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 30, 2018 18:51:17 GMT
I would mention that the Dalish Keeper Thelhen summoned Imshael into a binding Circle. Whilst Imshael is insistent he is not a demon, he clearly is if by demon we mean a malevolent being that manipulates people into doing what it wants. In fact he isn't just any old demon but a Forbidden One. So it would be interesting to know what Thelhen did in order to summon him. He talks of having to interact with despised shemlen in order to get what he needed, so I assume that meant lyrium.
Then if he wanted Imshael to help him, Imshael required him to allow him to posses someone and this would be accomplished by means of their blood. Whether that was simply to provide the link to that person or control was through blood magic, it would seem that blood is necessary in order to get a demon to comply with what you want it to do.
According to World of Thedas and codices from Enchanter Josephus in game, it would seem that the Circle system does teach that blood magic is necessary in order to open the Veil to allow the passage of a demon but clearly since Rhys is able to summon wisps to assist him without blood magic, it must be possible to summon a spirit without using blood magic if the Veil is sufficiently thin in the location you wish to do this. I imagine this is what lies behind the summoning circles in the Circle Towers.
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Post by boxofscreaming on Sept 30, 2018 18:53:09 GMT
Hard to say. What I loathe is how Inquisition went "oh well, all that stuff you were involved in in the last game was kind of important, but what really started it was something that happened in a tie-in novel".
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 1, 2018 9:29:50 GMT
What I loathe is how Inquisition went "oh well, all that stuff you were involved in in the last game was kind of important, but what really started it was something that happened in a tie-in novel". I would prefer it if the novels either pre-dated the game period, as was the case with Stolen Throne and the Calling, or dealt with something that was contemporaneous but not connected with the plot of the game or only vaguely alluded to it, as with Last Flight. It also annoyed me that our efforts in Awakening were largely ignored when it came to the relations between the Grey Wardens and the throne of Ferelden. What with Clarel apparently having had to beg admission to enter from Arl Teagan, making reference to Sophie Dryden (ancient history after the events of DAO and Awakening) and then him doing the same in Trespasser when arguing why they didn't like outside organisations, it made me wonder if our efforts at Vigil's Keep had happened at all. Not to mention that if you are based in Ferelden and want to know what is up with the Grey Wardens there, surely the first point of call would be Vigil's Keep? Strangely enough, in Last Flight it was intimated that the problems with the Grey Wardens in the south were only limited to those of Orlais and Vigil's Keep was running as normal, which contradicted what seemed evident in DAI. So I wish they would ensure continuity between one game and the next and with the tie-ins, whether novels, comics or lore books, if they want us to consider all this sources as canon to the story they are telling.
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Post by Templar Knight on Oct 1, 2018 17:41:54 GMT
What I loathe is how Inquisition went "oh well, all that stuff you were involved in in the last game was kind of important, but what really started it was something that happened in a tie-in novel". I would prefer it if the novels either pre-dated the game period, as was the case with Stolen Throne and the Calling, or dealt with something that was contemporaneous but not connected with the plot of the game or only vaguely alluded to it, as with Last Flight. It also annoyed me that our efforts in Awakening were largely ignored when it came to the relations between the Grey Wardens and the throne of Ferelden. What with Clarel apparently having had to beg admission to enter from Arl Teagan, making reference to Sophie Dryden (ancient history after the events of DAO and Awakening) and then him doing the same in Trespasser when arguing why they didn't like outside organisations, it made me wonder if our efforts at Vigil's Keep had happened at all. Not to mention that if you are based in Ferelden and want to know what is up with the Grey Wardens there, surely the first point of call would be Vigil's Keep? Strangely enough, in Last Flight it was intimated that the problems with the Grey Wardens in the south were only limited to those of Orlais and Vigil's Keep was running as normal, which contradicted what seemed evident in DAI. So I wish they would ensure continuity between one game and the next and with the tie-ins, whether novels, comics or lore books, if they want us to consider all this sources as canon to the story they are telling. Hmm... In Awakening Loghain (I presume the same applies for Alistair) *was* transferred to Orlais if you spared him and made him a Gray Warden. (He arrives at the Vigil's Keep throne room to have a chat with you.) To what extent was it implied in Inquisition that it was both Ferelden and Orlais?
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 1, 2018 19:35:55 GMT
To what extent was it implied in Inquisition that it was both Ferelden and Orlais? There was the letter/codex that was meant to be from Clarel to Teagan seeking admittance to Ferelden. Leliana sent us looking for Blackwall because something seemed up with the Wardens in Ferelden. Grey Wardens had been on the Storm Coast in Ferelden but had withdrawn. Grey Wardens were hunting Hawkes' contact in Crestwood, which again was in Ferelden. Warden Alistair was based in Ferelden and in DA2 Warden Stroud was based in the Freemarches, so only Warden Loghain could possibly have fled from Orlais. Both Crestwood and the Storm Coast were shown as being in the north of Ferelden and therefore closer to the location of Vigil's Keep than Haven. Then after our meeting in Crestwood, the action transfers to the far side of Orlais. Thus it was implied that the false calling was a problem across both Orlais and Ferelden.
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Post by Templar Knight on Oct 1, 2018 20:32:31 GMT
Ah, so Alistair wasn't shipped to Orlais, only Loghain. I actually haven't yet had a playthrough where he remained a Gray Warden *and* lived. Thanks for your comprehensive answer. I agree this is iffy, then. Unless... I don't know the context here (or how long before Inquisition Last Flight is supposed to have taken place), but is it possible that at the time this was mentioned, Vigils' Keep *was* still up and running - that the Orlesian Wardens succumbed first, with Fereldan following as of the time of Inquisition?
You know, I actually own Last Flight, but I never got far in it. One thing I did appreciate was that it explained how there are so many Warden mages in Inquisition despite Origins being clear they only have one mage at any given time. (Which is a perfectly sensible policy, I assume for the same reason the Dalish only have two at a time.)
(For those who haven't read Last Flight - It's explained that by tradition the Wardens ordinarily take only one mage from each Circle of Magi, but they've been offering apostates refuge during the mage-templar conflict by allowing them to join.
One mage per Circle, I guess, possibly means one mage Warden per jurisdiction - the DA:O dialogue would therefore refer to the Ferelden Wardens only having one mage at a time, which is what I assumed to begin with. That means that normally there are only 21-22 mages maximum in the entire order continent-wide, assuming this is including the seven Tevinter Circles.)
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Post by Catilina on Oct 1, 2018 20:51:03 GMT
Ah, so Alistair wasn't shipped to Orlais, only Loghain. I actually haven't yet had a playthrough where he remained a Gray Warden *and* lived. Thanks for your comprehensive answer. I agree this is iffy, then. Unless... I don't know the context here (or how long before Inquisition Last Flight is supposed to have taken place), but is it possible that at the time this was mentioned, Vigils' Keep *was* still up and running - that the Orlesian Wardens succumbed first, with Fereldan following as of the time of Inquisition?
You know, I actually own Last Flight, but I never got far in it. One thing I did appreciate was that it explained how there are so many Warden mages in Inquisition despite Origins being clear they only have one mage at any given time. (Which is a perfectly sensible policy, I assume for the same reason the Dalish only have two at a time.) (For those who haven't read Last Flight - It's explained that by tradition the Wardens ordinarily take only one mage from each Circle of Magi, but they've been offering apostates refuge during the mage-templar conflict by allowing them to join.
One mage per Circle, I guess, possibly means one mage Warden per jurisdiction - the DA:O dialogue would therefore refer to the Ferelden Wardens only having one mage at a time, which is what I assumed to begin with. That means that normally there are only 21-22 mages maximum in the entire order continent-wide, assuming this is including the seven Tevinter Circles.)
That Dalish three mage bullshit is very illogical. They don't have Templars. More mage = bigger safety. The mages have the most flexible anti-magical skills. Not mentioned, in DAO and DA2 the mage children were rare treasures, in the Inquisition, they throw out these rare treasures because they can't handle them... (of course not, if they throw away the ones, who would be able to handle the problem the most effectively...) In fact: many clans don't have enough mages. The Keeper and the First is important, and these are traditionally mages. What if they die? By the way: Duncan in the mage origin complains, that the wardens haven't enough mages... The whole story is inconsistent in this topic. Don't forget: if Vivienne doesn't lie, the mages are only 1% of the population. (I think, a bit more, but still.)
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Post by Templar Knight on Oct 1, 2018 20:56:49 GMT
The Dalish trade mage children between clans if there is a need. We know this. Merrill was an example, I believe.
What exactly does Duncan say? The mage origin story is one of the places where it's mentioned they only have one mage at a time, and it would be very strange if the origin contradicted itself.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 1, 2018 21:08:17 GMT
The Dalish trade mage children between clans if there is a need. We know this. Merrill was an example, I believe. They did this precisely because of the importance of every clan having a trainee Keeper. So Merrill's clan allowed Sabrae to adopt her into their clan as Marethari's apprentice, later her First, as Sabrae had no other mages to replace Marethari when she died. The rule was that if a clan had more than the Keeper, an heir and a spare, then if another clan had a need they would allow that clan with a shortage of mages to adopt. This happened because mage numbers in the Dalish were low and having a Keeper was so important to their culture. Then in DAI the writers had this turned on its head so that the Dalish restricted the number of mages because they couldn't control more than 3 at a time. It was patently daft and made the Dalish look ridiculous, particularly when you consider that other cultures like the Avvar and Rivain don't have a problem controlling their mages without Templars and in fact even allow their children/wise women to become possessed in order for spirits to teach/impart wisdom without apparently having a problem with rampant abominations. The mage origin story is one of the places where it's mentioned they only have one mage at a time, and it would be very strange if the origin contradicted itself The way I understood it is that it was the Chantry/Templars who would only permit one mage per Circle to join the Grey Wardens in order to restrict the number of mages not under their direct control. The Wardens would happily have taken more if made available to them because of their usefulness in fighting darkspawn.
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