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Post by Catilina on Oct 1, 2018 21:11:56 GMT
The Dalish trade mage children between clans if there is a need. We know this. Merrill was an example, I believe. What exactly does Duncan say? The mage origin story is one of the places where it's mentioned they only have one mage at a time, and it would be very strange if the origin contradicted itself. Yes, the Dalish send mage child to a clan, what doesn't have enough mages. You said this happens because of the safety. Duncan HOPES, he can put 1-2 mages to everywhere. They want more. And they don't get more from the Circle...
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Post by xerrai on Oct 1, 2018 22:22:04 GMT
As for why this tradition was allowed to continue as the Circles were forming at all... I'm not sure. My only guess might be that the tradition predates the Chantry's hold? Wikia says that the Mortalitasi order was started by an adviser of the King who took over Nevarra 246 years after the Chantry started. We know that the Chantry wasn't already established everywhere in Thedas by that point since they got their foot in the door of Ferelden with the aid of the King who (again per Wikia) united it about two centuries after Caspar's coup in Nevarra. Maybe by the time the Chantry could get its foot in the door in Nevarra, they were too late to do so except by compromising with the Mortalitasi? Yeah, I think the Chantry/Templars were not that accepting of the Mortalitasi by the time they reached Nevarra. Supposedly it was started by a Tevinter mage who was an advisor to the king, so that most likely means the order itself (or at least the foundations of it) was around 2:46 Glory, when Caspar became the monarch. Maybe a decade later. But that would certainly account for how they gained a substantial political foothold before the Chantry really reached them. But I think it is suspicious that they granted the Rite of Annulment to the Grand Clerics less than 40 years later in response to an incident at one of thier towers....
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Post by Templar Knight on Oct 1, 2018 22:57:33 GMT
The way I understood it is that it was the Chantry/Templars who would only permit one mage per Circle to join the Grey Wardens in order to restrict the number of mages not under their direct control. The Wardens would happily have taken more if made available to them because of their usefulness in fighting darkspawn. I disagree - the way it was worded in both the game and in Last Flight definitely seemed like it was the Wardens themselves deciding this.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 1, 2018 23:02:34 GMT
The way I understood it is that it was the Chantry/Templars who would only permit one mage per Circle to join the Grey Wardens in order to restrict the number of mages not under their direct control. The Wardens would happily have taken more if made available to them because of their usefulness in fighting darkspawn. I disagree - the way it was worded in both the game and in Last Flight definitely seemed like it was the Wardens themselves deciding this. Duncan clearly said (now watched my video, when you wrote that), the Wardens want more, but the Chantry doesn't let the mages go so easily. He said, that the Darkspawn bigger danger, than the mages and the abominations. The wardens aren't that paranoid cowards. They have to fight against a real danger.
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Post by Templar Knight on Oct 1, 2018 23:36:39 GMT
I disagree - the way it was worded in both the game and in Last Flight definitely seemed like it was the Wardens themselves deciding this. Duncan clearly said (now watched my video, when you wrote that), the Wardens want more, but the Chantry doesn't let the mages go so easily. He said, that the Darkspawn bigger danger, than the mages and the abominations. The wardens aren't that paranoid cowards. They have to fight against a real danger. Watching a video now. Are you referring to this part? "How many mages have joined the king's army?" Duncan: When the king sent out the call, the Circle of Ferelden sent only seven mages to Ostagar. I asked King Cailan's permission to come and seek a greater commitment from the Circle. "Seven is quite a few." Duncan: I hope to place a mage or two within every contingent. I cannot do with just seven. Mages will make all the difference in this battle. The darkspawn have their own magic, and our resources must exceed theirs. "Will you fight with the king?" Duncan: Of course, but I am no mage. Mages heal. They can call fire and ice down upon the enemy, and so much more. I sometimes wonder if the Chantry's many laws regarding magic are necessary. Darkspawn are a greater threat than blood mages, even abominations. It takes decades for the world to recover from a Blight. I wish the Chantry could see that. We must stop at nothing to defeat the darkspawn. Ah, listen to me. An old man's rantings can't be very interesting.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 2, 2018 7:54:31 GMT
And yet I've never heard of anyone but blood mages using demons, and Dorian mentions it in the same context as various forms of what he calls "real blood magic." And Solas says that he can't bind Cole because he doesn't practice blood magic. So even though the stuff the Circle permits doesn't require blood, given all the rest of that there almost has to be some limit somewhere in the process that magic without blood can't take the mage past, and it's probably one that's more likely to be relevant if what you're dealing with is a darker spirit.No mage needs it: all it does for an actual mage is grant them more power than they already have. But any of them can benefit from it, including a mage who has used blood but would just rather not at the moment... or one who plans to throw blood into the mix too. Don't forget that Dorian says the magi in the Tevinter Imperium use enough of it that they couldn't maintain an army of empowered Templars even if they wanted one, and that the ritual the magisters used to breach the Fade was said to require logistically and financially ridiculous quantities of both.Are we sure it makes the binding circle entirely superfluous? It might still do something. The summoning spirits/demons isn't blood magic only. Did you see Erimond's Grey Wardens? They didn't use summoning circle. Neither the other blood mages we met in game. But of course, you can doubt my words and ignore the existence of the summoning tools in the Kinloch Hold. Spirits, yes. Demons... that's not entirely clear. The Circle can summon spirits without blood magic, but I've never seen demons summoned by anyone who wasn't a blood mage. Of course given how similar the two types of creature are it's weird that summoning them would work in different ways... but it's also weird that true mind control is off limits without blood magic, isn't it? But because true mind control is off-limits if you aren't a blood mage, it also occurred to me that summoning a demon might not be the problem. It might be that there's limits to how thoroughly you can bind a spirit or demon if you don't use blood: that you can't force complete obedience, or that blood magic allows you to bind a spirit without a summoning circle. (Though again: we don't see enough to know whether or not the circle helps a blood mage control a demon.) And while a spirit might not attack you if you don't bind it properly (and with a spirit like Solas's friend it certainly won't,) a demon almost certainly will.Or they can use lyrium, if they'd rather not slice themselves open. Or they can use both, if they're in way over their heads and need a whole lot of power really fast.Is there proof? No. I'd kind of assumed it because summoning demons is overwhelmingly practiced by blood mages. But that does still seem to indicate that they're probably blood mages, right? As for why this tradition was allowed to continue as the Circles were forming at all... I'm not sure. My only guess might be that the tradition predates the Chantry's hold? Wikia says that the Mortalitasi order was started by an adviser of the King who took over Nevarra 246 years after the Chantry started. We know that the Chantry wasn't already established everywhere in Thedas by that point since they got their foot in the door of Ferelden with the aid of the King who (again per Wikia) united it about two centuries after Caspar's coup in Nevarra. Maybe by the time the Chantry could get its foot in the door in Nevarra, they were too late to do so except by compromising with the Mortalitasi? Yeah, I think the Chantry/Templars were not that accepting of the Mortalitasi by the time they reached Nevarra. Supposedly it was started by a Tevinter mage who was an advisor to the king, so that most likely means the order itself (or at least the foundations of it) was around 2:46 Glory, when Caspar became the monarch. Maybe a decade later. But that would certainly account for how they gained a substantial political foothold before the Chantry really reached them. But I think it is suspicious that they granted the Rite of Annulment to the Grand Clerics less than 40 years later in response to an incident at one of thier towers.... Huh. I'd always thought the incident itself explained that. The Templars lost control of a Circle, and an abomination got loose and slaughtered people outside the Circle (and apparently WoT clarifies it wiped out everyone in the Circle first.) And as an aside, most of the surviving Circle mages in Nevarra would probably have been Mortalitasi, since though they are Circle members they don't seem to have to live in the Circle. So pushing the Right of Annulment through to spite them probably wouldn't accomplish much. Edit: Or was the forty years bit the point? Because that would be a weirdly short time frame to go from not having any presence to being allowed to mostly control that country's magic, so if that's what you were saying you're right. Hm... The Dalish trade mage children between clans if there is a need. We know this. Merrill was an example, I believe. They did this precisely because of the importance of every clan having a trainee Keeper. So Merrill's clan allowed Sabrae to adopt her into their clan as Marethari's apprentice, later her First, as Sabrae had no other mages to replace Marethari when she died. The rule was that if a clan had more than the Keeper, an heir and a spare, then if another clan had a need they would allow that clan with a shortage of mages to adopt. This happened because mage numbers in the Dalish were low and having a Keeper was so important to their culture. Then in DAI the writers had this turned on its head so that the Dalish restricted the number of mages because they couldn't control more than 3 at a time. It was patently daft and made the Dalish look ridiculous, particularly when you consider that other cultures like the Avvar and Rivain don't have a problem controlling their mages without Templars and in fact even allow their children/wise women to become possessed in order for spirits to teach/impart wisdom without apparently having a problem with rampant abominations. For one thing, I'm not sure how patently daft it is. Any one mage going abomination has the potential to wipe out a clan even with a bunch of other mages on standby, so I think I understand how a Dalish clan might think it's a good idea to limit themselves to the two mages they need and a third just in case, and make sure they pick the three who they think are least likely to lose control. Then you throw in the fact that the Dalish roam the edges of White Chantry (and White Templar) territory, and the dangers of having too many apostates in your group at once... But for another thing, are we sure all the Dalish clans do this? Word of Gaider established early on that each clan does things differently, in spite of the Gathering of the Clans meant to keep them culturally homogeneous, and now with Solas backing him up we have actual canonical sourcing for that. And... I don't remember this bit well, since I last played an elf three Inquisitors ago, but can't an elven Inquisitor explicitly say their clan doesn't do that? Duncan HOPES, he can put 1-2 mages to everywhere. They want more. And they don't get more from the Circle... Which is a deeply facepalmworthy general policy, but might have been a good thing in this one case since Ostagar probably wasn't winnable anyway without the Archdemon around. The Ferelden forces were horribly outnumbered both at Ostagar and Denerim, but the second time the darkspawn fled when Archie died. Still, there's no way the Chantry could have known or reasonably intuited that it was going to work out that way, so they could only have been working based on that facepalmworthy general policy. On the other hand, judging by the army of mages we see in the cutscene right before the Final Battle, the Chantry in Ferelden seems to have learned their lesson.
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Post by Iddy on Oct 2, 2018 10:58:29 GMT
Ohhh shit, the Dalish can of worms is open!
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 2, 2018 12:18:37 GMT
Ohhh shit, the Dalish can of worms is open! If you make popcorn, save some for me.
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Post by xerrai on Oct 2, 2018 14:53:43 GMT
[...] Then in DAI the writers had this turned on its head so that the Dalish restricted the number of mages because they couldn't control more than 3 at a time. It was patently daft and made the Dalish look ridiculous, particularly when you consider that other cultures like the Avvar and Rivain don't have a problem controlling their mages without Templars and in fact even allow their children/wise women to become possessed in order for spirits to teach/impart wisdom without apparently having a problem with rampant abominations. For one thing, I'm not sure how patently daft it is. Any one mage going abomination has the potential to wipe out a clan even with a bunch of other mages on standby, so I think I understand how a Dalish clan might think it's a good idea to limit themselves to the two mages they need and a third just in case, and make sure they pick the three who they think are least likely to lose control. Then you throw in the fact that the Dalish roam the edges of White Chantry (and White Templar) territory, and the dangers of having too many apostates in your group at once...Well I suppose that would be true...if the templars and Chantry can actually reliably count the mages of any given clan. Assuming they can even get close enough to see the clan members reliably (which isn't likely given the Dalish propensity for isolation and non-human contact), how would they judge that an elf is a mage? By the staffs they hold? The robes they wear? Or would they wait until they see how many elves can cast spells? I can't see any Chantry group reliably collecting such data. Particularly when we know that the Dalish are willing to harbor non-practicing mages who, despite having magical talent, will dedicate themselves to a job that doesn't require it. Like Elora of Zathrian's clan who was the halla keeper. (Now that I think about it, didn't the Chantry use a similar method before Circle Towers were a thing? Discouraging mages from using magic despite keeping them in thier Chantries for other tasks, I mean. It seems odd, given thier fear of abominations. But apparently they felt safe so long as magic use was restricted. Does the potential becoming an abomination decrease if a mage simply doesn't regularly use magic?)
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 2, 2018 16:10:03 GMT
But for another thing, are we sure all the Dalish clans do this? Word of Gaider established early on that each clan does things differently, in spite of the Gathering of the Clans meant to keep them culturally homogeneous, and now with Solas backing him up we have actual canonical sourcing for that. And... I don't remember this bit well, since I last played an elf three Inquisitors ago, but can't an elven Inquisitor explicitly say their clan doesn't do that? Yes but it is made to sound like your clan is the exception. In the Core Rule Book, written around the time of DAO, it specifically says that a clan may have many mages but only two have a specific rank, the Keeper and the First. This was the case in Zathrian's clan were Layana had to compete with others for the position of First. Then in DAI we have the researcher (her name has escaped me for the moment) giving her personal experience, Vivienne pointedly suggesting that the Dalish cull their mages as a matter of survival and then Iron Bull/Dalish also making it seem like she was kicked out of her clan because of their needs to limit the number of mages. So regardless of the "clans growing apart" line, this was represented to the player (particularly those new to the game who didn't know any different) as being the norm among the Dalish. Naturally there are some things where clans probably do vary in their behaviour. How they interact with other races would be a case in point. Some are isolationist, some are little better than bandits preying on them and some make a point of trying to do trade with them. This probably does come about through their differing experiences depending on where they are located. However, there are some things that are more likely to be adhered to consistently across the clans and having a mage to lead them would appear to be one of them. Otherwise, if individual clans were fearful of uncontrolled mages, why bother with a Keeper at all? This is why I always maintain it is ridiculous to have a situation where it is so culturally important to have a mage as their leader they are prepared to risk constant harassment by Templars in order to maintain this tradition, yet apparently are willing to ditch surplus mages because they are fearful of them. You only need one mage for the risk of an abomination to be present, so limiting numbers does nothing to reduce that risk. Contrary to our experiences in DA2, mages do not spontaneously combust into abominations simply because their next door neighbour does. Asking an older mage to leave, like Dalish, would seem preferable to casting a young child adrift in the forest but by the same token, an older experienced mage will have better control of their powers so they do not represent that great a risk if they stay and can help teach the younger ones. The fact is though we were told in earlier games that mages are become scarcer among the Dalish, which is why they need to spread them around and thus every mage would be precious to them. Ohhh shit, the Dalish can of worms is open Yes, and I will continue to climb on my soap box about it until the writers confirm that the 3-mage rule as defined in DAI was a misunderstanding of the way the Dalish do things and the real 3-mage rule was the one we were told about by Merrill.
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Post by Iddy on Oct 2, 2018 16:10:06 GMT
...."White Chantry" and "White Templar"?
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Post by melbella on Oct 3, 2018 1:02:59 GMT
Is there proof? No. I'd kind of assumed it because summoning demons is overwhelmingly practiced by blood mages. But that does still seem to indicate that they're probably blood mages, right?
I think what you guys are forgetting here is that the mages in Solas' quest did not summon a demon. They summoned a spirit of wisdom, then bound it and demanded it fight to defend them from bandits. The binding and forcing it to act against its nature turned it into a demon, but a demon isn't what they initially summoned. The fact they couldn't tell the difference doesn't speak well of their supposed knowledge in such matters.
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Post by xerrai on Oct 3, 2018 1:07:48 GMT
...."White Chantry" and "White Templar"? It's a reference to the Chantry and templars in the south. This is done to contrast them with the "Black" Divine/Chantry of the north. Its not a common set of terms, but the southern Divine is sometimes referred to as the "White Divine".
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 3, 2018 10:45:06 GMT
Is there proof? No. I'd kind of assumed it because summoning demons is overwhelmingly practiced by blood mages. But that does still seem to indicate that they're probably blood mages, right?
I think what you guys are forgetting here is that the mages in Solas' quest did not summon a demon. They summoned a spirit of wisdom, then bound it and demanded it fight to defend them from bandits. The binding and forcing it to act against its nature turned it into a demon, but a demon isn't what they initially summoned. The fact they couldn't tell the difference doesn't speak well of their supposed knowledge in such matters. Yeah, it really doesn't. But the point is, they were trying to summon a demon, and they managed to force it to act against its nature. Both of those seem like things a mage would probably use blood magic to try. (Also, maybe I'm kind of assuming they're blood mages on account of they're from Kirkwall. That might be part of it. )
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Post by Catilina on Oct 3, 2018 10:51:01 GMT
I think what you guys are forgetting here is that the mages in Solas' quest did not summon a demon. They summoned a spirit of wisdom, then bound it and demanded it fight to defend them from bandits. The binding and forcing it to act against its nature turned it into a demon, but a demon isn't what they initially summoned. The fact they couldn't tell the difference doesn't speak well of their supposed knowledge in such matters. Yeah, it really doesn't. But the point is, they were trying to summon a demon, and they managed to force it to act against its nature. Both of those seem like things a mage would probably use blood magic to try. (Also, maybe I'm kind of assuming they're blood mages on account of they're from Kirkwall. That might be part of it. ) Not every mage was blood mage in the Kirkwall Circle.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 3, 2018 10:55:26 GMT
Yeah, it really doesn't. But the point is, they were trying to summon a demon, and they managed to force it to act against its nature. Both of those seem like things a mage would probably use blood magic to try. (Also, maybe I'm kind of assuming they're blood mages on account of they're from Kirkwall. That might be part of it. ) Not every mage was blood mage in the Kirkwall Circle. Well, no. Most of them were innocent.
Some of them were innocent.There had to be at least a few innocent mages in that Circle. (Besides Bethany, I mean.)
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Post by Catilina on Oct 3, 2018 11:04:23 GMT
Not every mage was blood mage in the Kirkwall Circle. Well, no. Most of them were innocent.
Some of them were innocent.There had to be at least a few innocent mages in that Circle. (Besides Bethany, I mean.) Among the hundreds (~thousand) of mages? I suppose most of them.
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Post by Iddy on Oct 3, 2018 16:32:03 GMT
...."White Chantry" and "White Templar"? It's a reference to the Chantry and templars in the south. This is done to contrast them with the "Black" Divine/Chantry of the north. Its not a common set of terms, but the southern Divine is sometimes referred to as the "White Divine". Does anyone ever think about Tevinter's chantry? If you just say "chantry", everyone will assume it's the southern one.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 3, 2018 16:53:50 GMT
It's a reference to the Chantry and templars in the south. This is done to contrast them with the "Black" Divine/Chantry of the north. Its not a common set of terms, but the southern Divine is sometimes referred to as the "White Divine". Does anyone ever think about Tevinter's chantry? If you just say "chantry", everyone will assume it's the southern one. Probably? In context I probably could have, since the Black Chantry doesn't have the policies I was describing, but it's not true that nobody ever thinks of Tevinter's Chantry. I'm sure I'm far from the only one who wants to be able to roll a character and put him (or maybe her, if Bioware gives us the option) on the Black Chantry's equivalent of the Sunburst throne. (Do we know what it is? Maybe it's a Dragon throne?)
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Post by Templar Knight on Oct 3, 2018 17:32:03 GMT
It's a reference to the Chantry and templars in the south. This is done to contrast them with the "Black" Divine/Chantry of the north. Its not a common set of terms, but the southern Divine is sometimes referred to as the "White Divine". Does anyone ever think about Tevinter's chantry? If you just say "chantry", everyone will assume it's the southern one. It's referred to as the "southern Chantry" in Inquisition, and "Imperial Chantry" is used to refer to Tevinter's from the first game onwards. Those terms would probably be more official (especially as the White/Black thing is only ever used in canon to refer to the Divines, not their respective Chantry factions.)
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 3, 2018 18:24:40 GMT
It is the southern (Orlesian) Chantry that refer to the Black Divine. In Tevinter he is called the True Divine and the woman on the Sunburst Throne an upstart imposter. In fact in terms of the Andrastrian faith they have a point since Hessarian converted the Imperium over 150 years before the establishment of an official religion in the south. It always struck me as odd that Tevinter initially went to such pains to be recognised by the southern version of their religion as theirs was without doubt the older tradition, including having men in leading roles in the priesthood as well as women. It was interesting that Haven had a Reverend Father and of course were said to have isolated themselves from the outside world around the same time. Was it Drakon's zealous enforcement of his cult of the Andrastrian faith that caused them to do this after so many other variant cults had been destroyed by him?
As for the Tevinter Chantry's attitude to magic, well I wonder if that wasn't really restoring an earlier understanding of how Andraste viewed magic. From everything I have read in the Chant, she condemned misuse of power by anyone but she definitely called magic the gift of the Maker and much of the southern attitude to magic stems from how her words were (mis)interpreted by the first and subsequent Divines on the Sunburst Throne.
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Post by Templar Knight on Oct 3, 2018 19:02:39 GMT
"The Maker's second commandment, "Magic must serve man, not rule over him," never held the same meaning within the ancient Tevinter Imperium as it did elsewhere. The Chantry there interpreted the rule as meaning that mages should never control the minds of other men, and that otherwise their magic should benefit the rulers of men as much as possible."
That strikes me as a somewhat dubious interpretation.
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1,633
riverdaleswhiteflash
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Sept 28, 2016 8:03:42 GMT
September 2016
riverdaleswhiteflash
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 3, 2018 19:43:21 GMT
"The Maker's second commandment, "Magic must serve man, not rule over him," never held the same meaning within the ancient Tevinter Imperium as it did elsewhere. The Chantry there interpreted the rule as meaning that mages should never control the minds of other men, and that otherwise their magic should benefit the rulers of men as much as possible." That strikes me as a somewhat dubious interpretation. The logic behind it is pretty weird. But... honestly, I'm not sure the White Chantry's interpretation of it is any better. Honestly I think Gervaise is probably right that what the White Chantry takes it to mean isn't the intended meaning either. It is the southern (Orlesian) Chantry that refer to the Black Divine. In Tevinter he is called the True Divine and the woman on the Sunburst Throne an upstart imposter. Yeah, but I still use those designations (and by extension the phrases "White Chantry" and "Black Chantry" and "White/Black Templar") just as a handy designation. I mean, it's not like any actual priests of either Chantry frequent these forums. (Believe me, I wouldn't call the "Black Divine" that if I thought he was likely to find out.")
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Friend of Red Jenny
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18,890
vertigomez
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August 2016
vertigomez
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Post by vertigomez on Oct 4, 2018 20:24:32 GMT
Not to go totally off-topic but since the Divine was mentioned... how do you think Divine Victoria (all versions of her) would respond to the Black Divine? Do they have any kind of official correspondence or do they just dutifully ignore the imposter? "The Maker's second commandment, "Magic must serve man, not rule over him," never held the same meaning within the ancient Tevinter Imperium as it did elsewhere. The Chantry there interpreted the rule as meaning that mages should never control the minds of other men, and that otherwise their magic should benefit the rulers of men as much as possible." That strikes me as a somewhat dubious interpretation. The logic behind it is pretty weird. But... honestly, I'm not sure the White Chantry's interpretation of it is any better. Honestly I think Gervaise is probably right that what the White Chantry takes it to mean isn't the intended meaning either. Yeah, I think both the Orlesian and Imperial Chantry's interpretations of that commandment are, err, somewhat biased. I figure Tevinter's view is more like, "mages ruling over men =/= magic ruling over men, we are masters of our own magic." In the south the interpretation is that mages can't be in positions of power because that means magic is in positions of power. But I always thought that what it really means is that... well, magic is supposed to serve you (general you, mages, laypeople) and not control you. Not that mages are meant to serve and be controlled.
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1685
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1,633
riverdaleswhiteflash
1,501
Sept 28, 2016 8:03:42 GMT
September 2016
riverdaleswhiteflash
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 5, 2018 0:12:59 GMT
Not to go totally off-topic but since the Divine was mentioned... how do you think Divine Victoria (all versions of her) would respond to the Black Divine? Do they have any kind of official correspondence or do they just dutifully ignore the imposter? Cassandra and Vivienne would probably ignore the imposter... Leiliana might too, just because Bioware can only afford to make the World-States so different, but maybe she'll reach out? Not through official channels. Not at first anyway. But she might feel that she has to try to make whatever difference she can for Tevinters poor, muggles, and poor muggles, and see if she can make enough progress to be worth openly admitting to. Yeah. That's probably what that verse really means.
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