michaeln7
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 445 Likes: 828
inherit
10102
0
Sept 26, 2022 23:28:28 GMT
828
michaeln7
445
April 2018
michaeln7
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by michaeln7 on Oct 9, 2018 13:18:11 GMT
It's a reference to the Chantry and templars in the south. This is done to contrast them with the "Black" Divine/Chantry of the north. Its not a common set of terms, but the southern Divine is sometimes referred to as the "White Divine". Does anyone ever think about Tevinter's chantry? If you just say "chantry", everyone will assume it's the southern one. I do, I wonder just HOW different it is from the Southern Chantry. I know that they have a male Divine, and that it's a magister, but the only perspective we have is that of the South. One of my favorite things about Inquisition is that it actually caused me to change my view about many things in TheDAS (The Dragon Age Setting). From Origins, you learn that: Blood magic is evil! Grey Wardens are awesome! Demons! They're EVIL! Tevinter! EVIL=EVIL=EVIL=EEEEVVIIIIILLL! From DA2, you learn that: This is why blood magic is evil! ANDERS!!!!! Grey Wardens CAN be awesome, they just can't help you right now. Templars can be just as bad as blood mages! Frakkin' Anders.... In Inquisition, you learn that: Wait, spirits don't have to be demons? Wait, blood magic can heal WITHOUT sacrificing dozens? Wait, Tevinter actually has decent folk in it? Wait, Grey Wardens are fallible? Wait, you're saying I do NOT have to destroy everything in my path to save it? Sweet deal, I'm in. More to the point, I would be interested to see how a Southern Andrastian would interact with a Northern Andrastian. It's like having two Popes, but neither will recognize the other. Inquisition did a really good job of putting you in the middle of these nuanced conflicts without feeling like "Player Character, it is your destiny to alter the fate of the game world!" I think it would be great to see the Black Divine as actually a decent guy, just forced to deal with the whole Magister thing from a gilded cage.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
Mar 28, 2024 16:27:05 GMT
26,627
gervaise21
10,745
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Oct 9, 2018 17:42:45 GMT
It's like having two Popes, but neither will recognize the other. There was actually a period in history when this happened. However, it is more like the current situation with the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, where both have equal claim to antiquity and there was a time when they were unified but then there was a falling out with both sides condemning the other. There have been efforts at a reconciliation in recent years and the mutual anathemas have been removed but they aren't quite there yet. I think it would be great to see the Black Divine as actually a decent guy, just forced to deal with the whole Magister thing from a gilded cage. Some Divines probably have been decent enough guys, just as some Popes have been, but the current Black Divine seems like a ruthless manipulator who will stop at nothing to cling onto power. This is based not only on the account given about him in Asunder and WoT2 but also confirmed by Dorian, who recounts how the Divine calmly left a function early in order to carry out an assassination personally. The fact that he does not even have to conceal his actions is a pretty clear indicator of how more power he wields. He also without doubt uses blood magic in corrupt ways, so is the type of person Dorian is likely opposing with his Lucerni. I'm hopeful that we get to see more of Urian in the next game whether as an enemy, an dubious ally or simply to add colour to the setting.
|
|
inherit
1274
0
3,016
sageoflife
1,412
August 2016
sageoflife
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by sageoflife on Oct 11, 2018 22:14:42 GMT
Maybe next game we'll be able to select the next Black Divine just like we did the White Divine.
|
|
xerrai
N3
Posts: 839 Likes: 1,155
inherit
1451
0
1,155
xerrai
839
September 2016
xerrai
|
Post by xerrai on Oct 12, 2018 1:51:27 GMT
Some Divines probably have been decent enough guys, just as some Popes have been, but the current Black Divine seems like a ruthless manipulator who will stop at nothing to cling onto power. This is based not only on the account given about him in Asunder and WoT2 but also confirmed by Dorian, who recounts how the Divine calmly left a function early in order to carry out an assassination personally. The fact that he does not even have to conceal his actions is a pretty clear indicator of how more power he wields. He also without doubt uses blood magic in corrupt ways, so is the type of person Dorian is likely opposing with his Lucerni. I'm hopeful that we get to see more of Urian in the next game whether as an enemy, an dubious ally or simply to add colour to the setting. Yeah, as far as Black Divines go, Radonis Urian largely seems to embody the worst of what Tevinter has to offer. Not only did he achieve his position through bloody and ruthless politicking (which is standard for Tevinter) but his current rule has been nothing but ruthless...and it is heavily implied that with his power as Divine, he is revoking limitations on dangerous types of magic. It has already been stated in one codex that he got rid of most prohibitions against dreamwalking, which has apparently lead to an increase in blood magic usage in the Imperium. Edit: Got the archon confused with the Black Divine, edited to correction.
|
|
inherit
Champion of Kirkwall
1212
0
8,023
Sifr
3,737
Aug 25, 2016 20:05:11 GMT
August 2016
sifr
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by Sifr on Oct 12, 2018 2:19:35 GMT
Radonis largely seems to embody the worst of what Tevinter has to offer. But he does like cats, so...
Swings and roundabouts.
I don't think we have a name for the Black Divine yet. The Black Divine is named Urian Nihalias.
|
|
xerrai
N3
Posts: 839 Likes: 1,155
inherit
1451
0
1,155
xerrai
839
September 2016
xerrai
|
Post by xerrai on Oct 12, 2018 3:04:52 GMT
Yeah, as far as Black Divines go, Radonis largely seems to embody the worst of what Tevinter has to offer. Radonis is the Archon. I don't think we have a name for the Black Divine yet. Yeah that's my bad. Such a derp on my part. Somehow I got the two confused with eachother.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
Mar 28, 2024 16:27:05 GMT
26,627
gervaise21
10,745
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Oct 13, 2018 16:59:58 GMT
Of the two, I think Archon Radonis is probably only as ruthless and scheming as his role demands and whilst clearly a powerful mage, probably doesn't overly rely on blood magic to stay in power, although if it is on the increase then may be he has no choice to stay ahead. However, to my mind, Divine Urian has always been a thoroughly unscrupulous political schemer and has only become more corrupt once he attained his lofty position. Maybe next game we'll be able to select the next Black Divine just like we did the White Divine. More likely we will have to try and remove him from power. Whether that gives us the right to select a replacement remains to be seen. To be honest I'd rather not be kingmaker this time round. It gives our PC too much influence in matters when they really shouldn't have it. I think allowing us to influence who was next Divine and get to choose who rules Orlais was just too much. However, at least we had the dubious claim to endorsement by the Maker with our Herald of Andraste title that the majority of the common people believed in, even if we strenuously denied it. What sort of title could they give us in Tevinter that would have the entire Magisterium tamely accepting our ideas, particularly if we aren't even a mage?
|
|
inherit
2703
0
2,011
Lazarillo
1,025
January 2017
lazarillo
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, SWTOR
|
Post by Lazarillo on Oct 13, 2018 17:16:31 GMT
The Black Divine is named Urian Nihalias. So the Black Divine's name is just a misspelling of "you are a nihilist"? That's pretty on the nose, isn't it?
|
|
Templar Knight
N2
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
Posts: 63 Likes: 57
inherit
9725
0
57
Templar Knight
63
Jan 19, 2018 17:31:08 GMT
January 2018
templarknight
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
|
Post by Templar Knight on Oct 13, 2018 19:18:38 GMT
That's his birth name, though, isn't it? We don't actually know what his pontifical name is.
|
|
xerrai
N3
Posts: 839 Likes: 1,155
inherit
1451
0
1,155
xerrai
839
September 2016
xerrai
|
Post by xerrai on Oct 14, 2018 1:51:25 GMT
That's his birth name, though, isn't it? We don't actually know what his pontifical name is. I'm more concerned about what he's going to be wearing. Have you seen the White Divine's hat? Or the Archon's metal atrocity (if we go by the magekiller comics)? Maker only knows what the Black Divine will wear.
|
|
inherit
Champion of Kirkwall
1212
0
8,023
Sifr
3,737
Aug 25, 2016 20:05:11 GMT
August 2016
sifr
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by Sifr on Oct 14, 2018 3:37:10 GMT
That's his birth name, though, isn't it? We don't actually know what his pontifical name is. WOT2 only refers to him as Divine Urian, so it could be that Imperial Divines don't change their names?
(Or the devs hadn't come up with one when they wrote it?)
|
|
inherit
1685
0
1,633
riverdaleswhiteflash
1,501
Sept 28, 2016 8:03:42 GMT
September 2016
riverdaleswhiteflash
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 14, 2018 23:52:19 GMT
That's his birth name, though, isn't it? We don't actually know what his pontifical name is. As Gervaise points out, he's not as similar to the idea of a second Pope as he is to the actual Orthodox patriarch... do Orthodox patriarchs change their names? Wikipedia doesn't directly say, although it notes that the current one doesn't go by his birth name anymore and the last two changed theirs too. So I guess they do?
|
|
sjsharp2010
N7
Go Team!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 10,466 Likes: 18,006
Member is Online
inherit
2309
0
Member is Online
Mar 29, 2024 12:42:36 GMT
18,006
sjsharp2010
Go Team!
10,466
December 2016
sjsharp2010
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by sjsharp2010 on Oct 18, 2018 21:03:27 GMT
I personally think yes it would have eventually happened even without Anders given how Meredith treated mages and such in her own circle she even always argued with Orsino a lot even without Anders interference. Anders may have been the one to set the war wheels in motion but I get the feeling someone would have soon enough anyway even without him there. We don't know the state about other circles but we do know thanks to Vivienne that every circle is managed differently and that she spent most of her time in circles where mages were treated with respect. Also based on the mage Origin story in DAO I'd say that the Ferelden circle was one of the better ones as well.
|
|
xerrai
N3
Posts: 839 Likes: 1,155
inherit
1451
0
1,155
xerrai
839
September 2016
xerrai
|
Post by xerrai on Oct 18, 2018 23:40:07 GMT
I personally think yes it would have eventually happened even without Anders given how Meredith treated mages and such in her own circle she even always argued with Orsino a lot even without Anders interference. Anders may have been the one to set the war wheels in motion but I get the feeling someone would have soon enough anyway even without him there. We don't know the state about other circles but we do know thanks to Vivienne that every circle is managed differently and that she spent most of her time in circles where mages were treated with respect. Also based on the mage Origin story in DAO I'd say that the Ferelden circle was one of the better ones as well.That's a safe assumption. It's also dominated by the aequitarian mindset, which is often noted to be more moderate. But I think its pretty telling that even this notoriously moderate Circle had a policy of tempting apprentices with blood magic tomes for the sake of identifying 'devious elements'...and a Knight Commander that was apparently ok with how the Qunari sew the mouths of thier mages shut.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Oct 19, 2018 1:43:02 GMT
I personally think yes it would have eventually happened even without Anders given how Meredith treated mages and such in her own circle she even always argued with Orsino a lot even without Anders interference. Anders may have been the one to set the war wheels in motion but I get the feeling someone would have soon enough anyway even without him there. We don't know the state about other circles but we do know thanks to Vivienne that every circle is managed differently and that she spent most of her time in circles where mages were treated with respect. Also based on the mage Origin story in DAO I'd say that the Ferelden circle was one of the better ones as well.Exactly. So Anders and the rebellion was absolutely justified.
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
30,192
Hanako Ikezawa
Fan from 2003 - 2020
22,332
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 19, 2018 2:05:44 GMT
I personally think yes it would have eventually happened even without Anders given how Meredith treated mages and such in her own circle she even always argued with Orsino a lot even without Anders interference. Anders may have been the one to set the war wheels in motion but I get the feeling someone would have soon enough anyway even without him there. We don't know the state about other circles but we do know thanks to Vivienne that every circle is managed differently and that she spent most of her time in circles where mages were treated with respect. Also based on the mage Origin story in DAO I'd say that the Ferelden circle was one of the better ones as well.Exactly. So Anders and the rebellion was absolutely justified. The goal perhaps. The method he used, absolutely not.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Oct 19, 2018 2:14:52 GMT
Exactly. So Anders and the rebellion was absolutely justified. The goal perhaps. The method he used, absolutely not. The peaceful demonstration was not an option.
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
30,192
Hanako Ikezawa
Fan from 2003 - 2020
22,332
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 19, 2018 2:28:38 GMT
The goal perhaps. The method he used, absolutely not. The peaceful demonstration was not an option. Big gap between peaceful protest and mass murder, with lots of options between them.
|
|
sjsharp2010
N7
Go Team!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 10,466 Likes: 18,006
Member is Online
inherit
2309
0
Member is Online
Mar 29, 2024 12:42:36 GMT
18,006
sjsharp2010
Go Team!
10,466
December 2016
sjsharp2010
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by sjsharp2010 on Oct 19, 2018 2:48:57 GMT
Exactly. So Anders and the rebellion was absolutely justified. The goal perhaps. The method he used, absolutely not. Agreed I understood what he was trying to do and why but the methods he used to achieve this were wrong. It's better to negotiate and warn the templars that things may turn nasty if things aren't improved.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Oct 19, 2018 9:52:52 GMT
The goal perhaps. The method he used, absolutely not. Agreed I understood what he was trying to do and why but the methods he used to achieve this were wrong. It's better to negotiate and warn the templars that things may turn nasty if things aren't improved.Nasty, nasty Templars... He tried to warn people, Elthina, for 7 years. (the "Templars" aren't that things, you can warn, they just the arms of the Chantry – you can't warn the arm, just the head...). He didn't want to "improve" things* – he wanted an open rebellion. But he tried it to achieve more peacefully. And many others tried beforehand and later too, but the "negotiation" was wasted. Finally, the end, the Seekers and the Templars started the war – for their wounded pride. Not the Templars were the real enemy – and Anders saw this well – the Chantry was. The Templars were just as victims of the system, like the Mages. ___ *How you can improve an inherently wrong system? To make that even worse?
|
|
Templar Knight
N2
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
Posts: 63 Likes: 57
inherit
9725
0
57
Templar Knight
63
Jan 19, 2018 17:31:08 GMT
January 2018
templarknight
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
|
Post by Templar Knight on Oct 19, 2018 18:07:37 GMT
Agreed I understood what he was trying to do and why but the methods he used to achieve this were wrong. It's better to negotiate and warn the templars that things may turn nasty if things aren't improved.Nasty, nasty Templars... He tried to warn people, Elthina, for 7 years. (the "Templars" aren't that things, you can warn, they just the arms of the Chantry – you can't warn the arm, just the head...). He didn't want to "improve" things* – he wanted an open rebellion. But he tried it to achieve more peacefully. And many others tried beforehand and later too, but the "negotiation" was wasted. Finally, the end, the Seekers and the Templars started the war – for their wounded pride. Not the Templars were the real enemy – and Anders saw this well – the Chantry was. The Templars were just as victims of the system, like the Mages. ___ *How you can improve an inherently wrong system? To make that even worse? That explains how 'armless the Chantry was during Inquisition.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
Mar 28, 2024 16:27:05 GMT
26,627
gervaise21
10,745
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Oct 19, 2018 18:40:09 GMT
That explains how 'armless the Chantry was during Inquisition. Exactly, because the Right and Left Hands of the Divine used the Divine's idea and ran with it. This is something that seems to get overlooked. Justinia had planned all along on establishing her own Inquisition. The principles for setting it up were contained in the writ that Cassandra bangs on the table. If Justinia hadn't been killed she was going to use her Inquisition to bring about the changes she wanted and then force the two sides to toe the line. If you don't disband the organisation then it becomes exactly what Justinia intended, the Divine's own private army, answerable only to her, effectively replacing both the Templars and the Seekers of Truth as the Chantry's military, spy network and diplomatic corps rolled into one.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
Mar 28, 2024 16:27:05 GMT
26,627
gervaise21
10,745
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Oct 19, 2018 18:47:53 GMT
As Gervaise points out, he's not as similar to the idea of a second Pope as he is to the actual Orthodox patriarch... do Orthodox patriarchs change their names? Wikipedia doesn't directly say, although it notes that the current one doesn't go by his birth name anymore and the last two changed theirs too. So I guess they do? In the real world, there is a tradition even among the laity of taking the name of a saint alongside your own on baptism/confirmation. You then have a saint name day to celebrate in addition to your own birthday. Popes and Patriarchs taking the name of a famous predecessor and/or saint of the Church is just an extension of this. Whilst this idea seems to have been copied with regard to the southern Chantry, there is no real reason why the Imperial Chantry should have done the same. The religion was originally established there by Hessarian and at one time the Archon was always the religious head as well as the head of state. There seems no tradition of Archons changing their name on assuming the role. Then when the Imperial Chantry broke away from the Orlesian one, they were very much trying to revert to old traditions or establish their own new ones, so to my mind it would be odd for them to continue with a naming tradition that was very much connected with the mind-set of the southern organisation. So whilst it is possible that Divine Urian will suddenly acquire a different name when we get to Tevinter, it is equally likely that he kept his own name to differentiate him from the southern imposters.
|
|