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Post by griffith82 on Oct 20, 2018 9:58:35 GMT
Idk, I'm replaying KOTOR and while I love it there's some very cringworthy voice acting by the extras and some bad gameplay. My point is they were never perfect. Nothing is perfect but compare Bioware games from the 2000s to Andromeda. I have and IMO while I enjoy early Bioware games, they are choco full of issues. Dated gameplay, cheesy dialogue, most of the npcs have terrible voice acting and a terrible auto save system. Even ME1 has some of these issues. IMO Bioware games have gotten better not worse.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2018 11:52:40 GMT
Nothing is perfect but compare Bioware games from the 2000s to Andromeda. I have and IMO while I enjoy early Bioware games, they are choco full of issues. Dated gameplay, cheesy dialogue, most of the npcs have terrible voice acting and a terrible auto save system. Even ME1 has some of these issues. IMO Bioware games have gotten better not worse. I agree.
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Post by scifiguy53425 on Oct 20, 2018 13:24:15 GMT
No, they should be aimed at me and me alone.
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I'll relinquish one bullet. Where do you want it?
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: LogicGunn
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Post by LogicGunn on Oct 20, 2018 16:56:39 GMT
It's a Sci-Fi RPG. It should be aimed at Sci-Fi RPG Gamers.
That's like asking if Battlefield or FIFA should be aimed at me. (They shouldn't).
There's no point trying to capture all audiences with a game.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2018 20:55:07 GMT
It's a Sci-Fi RPG. It should be aimed at Sci-Fi RPG Gamers. That's like asking if Battlefield or FIFA should be aimed at me. (They shouldn't). There's no point trying to capture all audiences with a game. There's the bit about attracting new people to a genre so a certain amount of a "shotgun" approach is warranted. If you focus something too finely, you're not likely to spark the interest of people currently playing in other genres who will sample a new game even if it seems to fall somewhat outside whatever they normally play. You're also likely lose some people who are already followers of the genre as well since a certain number of them will have differing ideas about what it ideal and what is not within that genre and just won't agree with things not being exactly as they anticipated. There's also age attrition to consider. Ideally, what you pick up in newbs balances out the older fans you lose. It's not "trying to capture all audiences" but more like trying to capture some people who are fans on the fringe of what your genre is and therein converting them bit by bit to be a fan of your genre as well. (Sorry, I have no idea what has happened with the random letters running down the left edge and no idea how to correct it.)
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Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Oct 20, 2018 21:33:57 GMT
Its a formatting error on the page itself, the only way I have found to fix it is to delete your post and start over.
While I agree a bit of a shotgun approach is needed on some things that can enhance the game, I don't think that completely overhauling or adding major new elements is the way to go either. One of the things I see a lot is people wanting something like a space fighter element added. The problem with adding things like that is that is a massive undertaking and BioWare has no experience as a developer making it. On the other hand spending more time in space is something BioWare has been adding a little at a time over a few games for there was the space walk during Lair of the Shadow Broker and with Andromeda on the Asari Ark. So if there were more times added to do space walks or there were more times where it was part of the game it would not be such a jarring aspect.
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Post by ArcadiaGrey on Oct 20, 2018 21:57:12 GMT
(Sorry, I have no idea what has happened with the random letters running down the left edge and no idea how to correct it.) It's an easy fix. Click 'more reply options' and then the BBCode tab. In there you'll see a wall of gibberish text with the word div repeated over and over again. Simply delete that and the text goes. In this case there are sections with lots of 00000 in it, that's the part to remove (after the /quote and before your comment). We have no idea why it happens unfortunately.
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I'll relinquish one bullet. Where do you want it?
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: LogicGunn
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Post by LogicGunn on Oct 20, 2018 21:57:38 GMT
@upagain
The letters thing happens to me too but only on firefox and only after a recent patch. I haven't found a fix for it so I'm just using chrome for now.
Thanks for your reply, you have some interesting points here.
I agree with what you say but while I'm all for attracting new gamers, Sci-Fi, like sport, is more niche than most genres and the more you try to appeal to lots of people the more you have to water it down. Some genres and games can appeal to lots of people, but in my experience people who don't like Sci-Fi won't be swayed by Sci-Fi-lite (which will disappoint the Sci-Fi fans) and if you do like Sci-Fi then things like Mass Effect are already on your radar because in niche genres fans actively seek out more things.
There's a desperation to be the biggest, boldest, top selling game that drives things into the ground and makes things bland. I think if you make a game, know what it is and who it's for it can be epic.
It's like Aliens:Colonial Marines compared with Alien: Isolation, ACM tanked because it was a terrible game partly because nobody cares about that kind of side story in the Alien universe and partly because guns Vs Xenomorph isn't what the films are rembered or enjoyed for. It was made by the wrong people, for the wrong audience. AI took what is good in the films and translated it into game form, targeted it at people who already want that game and made something epic.
The more people that play the next ME game the better, but I don't want the cost of that to be either a dumbing down or (shudder) an online multiplayer mess.
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N3
I'll relinquish one bullet. Where do you want it?
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: LogicGunn
PSN: LogicGunn
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Post by LogicGunn on Oct 20, 2018 21:59:18 GMT
(Sorry, I have no idea what has happened with the random letters running down the left edge and no idea how to correct it.) It's an easy fix. Click 'more reply options' and then the BBCode tab. In there you'll see a wall of gibberish text with the word div repeated over and over again. Simply delete that and the text goes. In this case there are sections with lots of 00000 in it, that's the part to remove (after the /quote and before your comment). We have no idea why it happens unfortunately. Thanks for the fix, it's been occurring for me too. 😊
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Post by warden on Oct 20, 2018 23:19:55 GMT
Is this a ridiculous comparison? Suvi is better than Morrigan. your avatar gives away a lot though.
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Post by griffith82 on Oct 21, 2018 0:03:33 GMT
Its a formatting error on the page itself, the only way I have found to fix it is to delete your post and start over. While I agree a bit of a shotgun approach is needed on some things that can enhance the game, I don't think that completely overhauling or adding major new elements is the way to go either. One of the things I see a lot is people wanting something like a space fighter element added. The problem with adding things like that is that is a massive undertaking and BioWare has no experience as a developer making it. On the other hand spending more time in space is something BioWare has been adding a little at a time over a few games for there was the space walk during Lair of the Shadow Broker and with Andromeda on the Asari Ark. So if there were more times added to do space walks or there were more times where it was part of the game it would not be such a jarring aspect. Agreed. They tried that with the turret mini game in KOTOR. Didn't turn out well. However the space battles in SWTOR were fun.
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 21, 2018 1:31:06 GMT
In theory they could outsource the space fighter mini-game , or whatever, to some other company which did have the relevant expertise. IIRC something like that was done for the Nomad in ME:A.
The problem is that unless we're talking about something very small nobody's likely to have the slack capacity around when you need it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2018 15:55:02 GMT
(Sorry, I have no idea what has happened with the random letters running down the left edge and no idea how to correct it.) It's an easy fix. Click 'more reply options' and then the BBCode tab. In there you'll see a wall of gibberish text with the word div repeated over and over again. Simply delete that and the text goes. In this case there are sections with lots of 00000 in it, that's the part to remove (after the /quote and before your comment). We have no idea why it happens unfortunately. It worked like a charm. Thanks!
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Post by hulluliini on Oct 22, 2018 7:22:25 GMT
Andromeda was aimed at mainstream casual audiences and it was the main reason it failed. errrr I don't know. It's part cause I guess. It actually went against the grain a lot by attempting to pander to ME1 players which is easily the least mainstream game in the series and it also tells a rather intricate, complicated premise for its story that I think made a lot of Mass Effect fans go "uhhh, pass" because it wasn't just some "evil dude attacks shoot stuff in the face and LOOK, SPACE CARS!" crap. But yes the whole Task system and Inquisition-isms which are mainstream-isms; Ubisoft- or Skyrim-isms is part of the reason Andromeda left a sour taste in people's mouths. I should clarify: I think the developers genuinely _thought_ it would cater to casual mainstream players and attract new fans because of that, but they simply thought wrong (and poor execution didn't help of course). I often think back to that time when ME2 was about to be released. The developers revealed how they'd gone through forum posts and analysed them and used surveys to find out what are the most important things to people. So they changed the combat system and it was a big step in the right direction. They focused on the characters and gave more alien romance options because they realised how perverted a lot of people are. Definitely the right choice. Although introducing the planet scanning was a weird choice, and the fact they continue to make similar mistakes (long travel times in Andromeda) is puzzling. But I wonder if they did that sort of analysis when they were making ME:A and whether that could have made a difference. To me, it sounded like they thought they knew what the core fanbase wants and didn't really have much basis for that except a hunch.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Oct 22, 2018 7:30:02 GMT
errrr I don't know. It's part cause I guess. It actually went against the grain a lot by attempting to pander to ME1 players which is easily the least mainstream game in the series and it also tells a rather intricate, complicated premise for its story that I think made a lot of Mass Effect fans go "uhhh, pass" because it wasn't just some "evil dude attacks shoot stuff in the face and LOOK, SPACE CARS!" crap. But yes the whole Task system and Inquisition-isms which are mainstream-isms; Ubisoft- or Skyrim-isms is part of the reason Andromeda left a sour taste in people's mouths. I should clarify: I think the developers genuinely _thought_ it would cater to casual mainstream players and attract new fans because of that, but they simply thought wrong (and poor execution didn't help of course). I often think back to that time when ME2 was about to be released. The developers revealed how they'd gone through forum posts and analysed them and used surveys to find out what are the most important things to people. So they changed the combat system and it was a big step in the right direction. They focused on the characters and gave more alien romance options because they realised how perverted a lot of people are. Definitely the right choice. Although introducing the planet scanning was a weird choice, and the fact they continue to make similar mistakes (long travel times in Andromeda) is puzzling. But I wonder if they did that sort of analysis when they were making ME:A and whether that could have made a difference. To me, it sounded like they thought they knew what the core fanbase wants and didn't really have much basis for that except a hunch. No shit huh, they work for EA, all their macro decisionmaking is based on statistics.
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Post by quole on Oct 22, 2018 7:45:13 GMT
Nothing is perfect but compare Bioware games from the 2000s to Andromeda. I have and IMO while I enjoy early Bioware games, they are choco full of issues. Dated gameplay, cheesy dialogue, most of the npcs have terrible voice acting and a terrible auto save system. Even ME1 has some of these issues. IMO Bioware games have gotten better not worse. Well of course the gameplay would be dated by now. Nearly every RPG from back then has dated gameplay now. And cheesy dialogue? have you seen modern day Bioware games? Terrible voice acting? I also don't think the voice acting is any better now than it was then. How far back are we going exactly? BG? KotR? ME1? many of your complaints are just symptoms of the era in which they were made. The fact is that Bioware put a lot more effort in to the writing then than they do now and in an RPG that's pretty important. Obviously the gameplay is important in a game and the combat, controls, etc. were all serviceable in those games. Obviously the gameplay would be very different if they were made now. that's like complaining about the gampley in Mario for the NES compared to Mario Odessey. DAO for instance is what I would consider a FAR better game than DAI or especially DA2 because the plot, storytelling and characters were all much better even if the combat wasnt as good. My question is: Why can't you have both? I honestly do not see why you could not have a game with the writing of DAO, but with updated gameplay. Oh wait Witcher 3 already proved that you can. Apparently Bioware is just incompetent.
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Post by griffith82 on Oct 22, 2018 9:34:28 GMT
I have and IMO while I enjoy early Bioware games, they are choco full of issues. Dated gameplay, cheesy dialogue, most of the npcs have terrible voice acting and a terrible auto save system. Even ME1 has some of these issues. IMO Bioware games have gotten better not worse. Well of course the gameplay would be dated by now. Nearly every RPG from back then has dated gameplay now. And cheesy dialogue? have you seen modern day Bioware games? Terrible voice acting? I also don't think the voice acting is any better now than it was then. How far back are we going exactly? BG? KotR? ME1? many of your complaints are just symptoms of the era in which they were made. The fact is that Bioware put a lot more effort in to the writing then than they do now and in an RPG that's pretty important. Obviously the gameplay is important in a game and the combat, controls, etc. were all serviceable in those games. Obviously the gameplay would be very different if they were made now. that's like complaining about the gampley in Mario for the NES compared to Mario Odessey. DAO for instance is what I would consider a FAR better game than DAI or especially DA2 because the plot, storytelling and characters were all much better even if the combat wasnt as good. My question is: Why can't you have both? I honestly do not see why you could not have a game with the writing of DAO, but with updated gameplay. Oh wait Witcher 3 already proved that you can. Apparently Bioware is just incompetent. I wasn't complaining. I don't replay those games or even older ones like X-Wing for gameplay like today. I definitely disagree that the va and stuff hasn't gotten better.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: helios969
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Post by helios969 on Oct 22, 2018 9:42:21 GMT
Here's an idea. Make a game with a focused narrative (with logical progression) and fascinating characters, excellent and varied combat and enemy design, and a world filled with interesting content. Then labels like casual and mainstream don't really matter. Instead we're mostly getting bigger and bigger game worlds with less and less meaningful content so the marketing folks can say 2x, 4x, 8x bigger than the last and characters written to offend and alienate the fewest which usually makes for the most boring.
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N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Just a flip of the coin.
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Post by Sanunes on Oct 22, 2018 12:36:15 GMT
Here's an idea. Make a game with a focused narrative (with logical progression) and fascinating characters, excellent and varied combat and enemy design, and a world filled with interesting content. Then labels like casual and mainstream don't really matter. Instead we're mostly getting bigger and bigger game worlds with less and less meaningful content so the marketing folks can say 2x, 4x, 8x bigger than the last and characters written to offend and alienate the fewest which usually makes for the most boring. The thing is that is what the people claiming they speak for everyone say they want in a video game. They want a $60 game where they can spend hundreds of hours doing nothing feeling they got their money's worth. I personally would rather have a game that group would call "on rails" and with a narrow focus to tell a good story instead of spreading out that same sorry with such a wide focus the story gets lost. Not sure where you get that they are aiming for characters that won't offend anyone for BioWare offends plenty of people with their characters. I don't remember any other developer being requested to have a toggle where you can hide or censor NPCs that you disagree with. There is only so much they can do with a video game.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2018 13:39:35 GMT
Here's an idea. Make a game with a focused narrative (with logical progression) and fascinating characters, excellent and varied combat and enemy design, and a world filled with interesting content. Then labels like casual and mainstream don't really matter. Instead we're mostly getting bigger and bigger game worlds with less and less meaningful content so the marketing folks can say 2x, 4x, 8x bigger than the last and characters written to offend and alienate the fewest which usually makes for the most boring. Here's the rub though... Define "fascinating", "excellent" and "interesting" in terms that are not entirely subjective and impressions of which don't vary wildly from person to person. Your definition of a "fascinating character" or what is and is not "excellent" or "interesting" are quite likely different than mine to at least some degree and may be very different from mine depending on things like our relative age, our individual backgrounds, or politics or religion, etc., etc., etc. Within a RPG framework, what exactly is "logical progression" when part of the premise of an RPG is being able to mix the quest order around to accommodate different personalities of the main character. What Shepard A might logically do first is not necessarily what Shepard B would do first. What player A might see as a logical progression for their character, player B won't. It would likely even vary depending on how many of the backstory items the player takes the time to engage with or whether they rush through an area reading nothing at all. They'll also vary if the player is the type to want to clear map areas thoroughly the first time through or whether they want to do 1 quest in an area and move onto the next area and have the story eventually bring them back to the first area later on.
As RPGs have become more complex, more cinematic, and bigger overall... these differences in player tastes have, quite naturally, intensified... and therein lies the rub.
Bioware could tighten and shape their stories to appeal only to a very narrow audience, but that would not be profitable at all for them. Doing that would ultimately put them out of business as easily as trying to water down their stories too much to appeal to absolutely everyone (i.e. too broad an audience). It's got to be their call to make... as broad an audience as THEY THINK they can effectively attract to their games. If that ultimately doesn't include you or I, we just have to accept that we're no longer the "target" audience. Does that prevent us from playing or even enjoying their games... that depends on each us. I do enjoy lots of entertainment options for which I fall outside the target audience. To do that, I intentionally overlook and compromise knowing that some of the content is just not meant for me.
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Post by griffith82 on Oct 24, 2018 11:16:07 GMT
Here's an idea. Make a game with a focused narrative (with logical progression) and fascinating characters, excellent and varied combat and enemy design, and a world filled with interesting content. Then labels like casual and mainstream don't really matter. Instead we're mostly getting bigger and bigger game worlds with less and less meaningful content so the marketing folks can say 2x, 4x, 8x bigger than the last and characters written to offend and alienate the fewest which usually makes for the most boring. The thing is that is what the people claiming they speak for everyone say they want in a video game. They want a $60 game where they can spend hundreds of hours doing nothing feeling they got their money's worth. I personally would rather have a game that group would call "on rails" and with a narrow focus to tell a good story instead of spreading out that same sorry with such a wide focus the story gets lost. Not sure where you get that they are aiming for characters that won't offend anyone for BioWare offends plenty of people with their characters. I don't remember any other developer being requested to have a toggle where you can hide or censor NPCs that you disagree with. There is only so much they can do with a video game. Agreed. Nothing will please or satisfy everyone ever. Its a fantasy to expect any company to cater to exactly what you want.
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Go Team!
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Oct 24, 2018 13:58:19 GMT
I don't think saying someone is compensating for something is cringe worthy. I've heard that saying used in real life many times. I think BioWare gets crapped on for not trying to appeal just to mainstream audiences, and then they get crapped on when they do with Anthem. The next Mass Effect is guaranteed to have a robust multiplayer mode. It most likely won't compete with Black Ops 8 or whatever is out by then, but it can hold it's own as ME3 and Andromeda have. I play a lot of BioWare games, but I'll play Black ops 4 and Madden 19 as well. I'll play indie games also. I can appreciate a story sure, but I also like just blowing crap up or shooting something in the face... So I don't think mainstream vs. non mainstream audiences are as cut and dry as it seems. Yeah it's a damned if you do amn ddamned if you don't. Whilst I'm not interested in Anthem myself I don't begrudge them rtying something nwe from time to time so long as it doesn't stop them from remembering how they go tto where they are and that's through deliverin ggood single player RPG's with great stories and characters and I hope they continue to produce them.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Oct 24, 2018 14:05:32 GMT
Nothing is perfect but compare Bioware games from the 2000s to Andromeda. I have and IMO while I enjoy early Bioware games, they are choco full of issues. Dated gameplay, cheesy dialogue, most of the npcs have terrible voice acting and a terrible auto save system. Even ME1 has some of these issues. IMO Bioware games have gotten better not worse. Indeed
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