lilyonce
N3
The whole universe is...
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2
Posts: 277 Likes: 125
inherit
1185
0
Jan 11, 2020 17:30:36 GMT
125
lilyonce
The whole universe is...
277
Aug 24, 2016 23:34:41 GMT
August 2016
lilyonce
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2
|
Post by lilyonce on Nov 17, 2018 10:45:54 GMT
lilyonce I didn't say their magic was the highest quality -- that's not what this is about. This is about the quality of the education in learning to use that magic. I don't see a qualitative difference here. What are they using their education for? Their magic tradition didn't develop independently of their worldview, however. It developed through and alongside it. It validates and bolsters their culture. Its not neutral. No tool is. The evidence is the difference in magic traditions. We can see and give reasons for those differences. I can't give you a quantitative differences in differences estimator for this so eyeballing will have to do. But if we assume that there is a difference in traditions and that choice (as different choices lead to different cultures) has an opportunity cost- I think we can say they've done exactly that. Ignored magic that doesn't suit them. Why is their education different in this regard? Why is it a better education to learn techniques of domination? Same for your point about the Dalish. Even if an alternative had been tried, the tradition is much larger than one case. But if the tradition hadn't privileged blood magic and others over creation magic, their healing magic might've surpassed anything currently possible and cured wasting disease at no cost to Seraphinian.
|
|
xerrai
N3
Posts: 839 Likes: 1,155
inherit
1451
0
1,155
xerrai
839
September 2016
xerrai
|
Post by xerrai on Nov 17, 2018 20:32:52 GMT
lilyonce To me the morality of those issues you raise doesn't have much to do with the quality of the education. I suspect we won't agree on that point as I'm looking at the holistic acquirement of knowledge and skills, apart from those sorts of considerations you raise. I don't think quality can be determined in a vacuum. Why do we think their magic is the highest quality if not because we admire what they use it for in the end? There's no doubt that Tevinter has, and continues to do, terrible things with thier magic. But there's also no denying that there is education and technique in these terrible things. dream walking techniques, knowing that elves have more magic in thier blood than humans, figuring out that blood can dominate thoughts, etc. Not that I endorse the terrible things they do with thier techniques, but I do have to admit that they have knowledge. But I also can't ignore the headway the Tevinter education system makes toward inventing 'good' things either. The Litany of Andrala? Well the mage who ended up creating it mostly studied in Tevinter even if the litany was commissioned by the southern divine later. The Joining, which is very debatably the only reason modern Thedas exists today? Odds are its development was particularly influenced by Tevinter mages were knew that there was power in blood. And what about dreamers? Aside from the fallen elvhen dales, Tevinter seems to be one of the only countries that has somewhat-reliable records on dreamer techniques on account for how thier magisters tended to abuse it in the past. The Chantry, and the Circle of Magi by extension, would most likely never develop these sort of things at all. And it's not that thier fear of blood magic, demons and dreamers is unfounded or anything. There are several legitimate reasons to limit research. Or at least require safeguards. But thier distrust also goes to the point that just forbid research entirely into these areas. Even when research into these dangerous areas would actually be beneficial in terms of preventing atrocities. Just look at how they handle possession research. They would rather forever remain in the dark about its potential causes, countermeasures and better identification methods instead of facing the (admittedly higher) possibility of an uncontrolled abomination appearing.
|
|
lilyonce
N3
The whole universe is...
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2
Posts: 277 Likes: 125
inherit
1185
0
Jan 11, 2020 17:30:36 GMT
125
lilyonce
The whole universe is...
277
Aug 24, 2016 23:34:41 GMT
August 2016
lilyonce
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2
|
Post by lilyonce on Nov 17, 2018 21:06:19 GMT
There's no doubt that Tevinter has, and continues to do, terrible things with their magic. But there's also no denying that there is education and technique in these terrible things. Dream walking techniques, knowing that elves have more magic in their blood than humans, figuring out that blood can dominate thoughts, etc. Not that I endorse the terrible things they do with their techniques, but I do have to admit that they have knowledge. But I also can't ignore the headway the Tevinter education system makes toward inventing 'good' things either. But they don't develop knowledge randomly. They develop much of their magic for the purpose of control. Its counted as knowledge by them because it enables that purpose. And its not just that they use their magic for terrible things- the magic itself is a form of domination. Mind control is domination. Binding spirits is domination. They developed these things where other cultures did not. And I thought dream walking came from the elves? The Litany may not have been necessary at all. I think the Tevinter worldview is why demons exist in the first place- though they aren't the first civilization to have it. And they developed the mind control that made the Litany useful in the first place. And they're certainly the reason the blights exist and why the Joining is even needed. I can't give their magic credit for solutions to problems it created. They didn't invent it did they? I don't remember but I don't think so. And if it was the elves that developed it- Tevinter is the only country that knows anything about it because they wiped out the culture that came up with it. I said in another post that the Chantry is still reacting to the legacy of Tevinter magic and that was understandable because Tevinter is still there and still rotten- and that they have a hard time seeing magic outside the paradigm in which Andraste fought it. They could do some things differently- but I don't think doing things more like Tevinter is the solution. Its the problem. I think rebuking a circle based on Tevinter is the first step to resolving possession permanently. It'd be the easier thing to do too IMO.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
Mar 28, 2024 16:27:05 GMT
26,627
gervaise21
10,745
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Nov 18, 2018 18:47:57 GMT
But they don't develop knowledge randomly. They develop much of their magic for the purpose of control. Its counted as knowledge by them because it enables that purpose. And its not just that they use their magic for terrible things- the magic itself is a form of domination. Mind control is domination. Binding spirits is domination. They developed these things where other cultures did not. And I thought dream walking came from the elves? There were suggestions in the past that blood magic was taught to the early Neromenians not by the old gods but by the elves they encountered. In fact both might be true if the old gods were in some way connected with the elven gods (either Creators or Forgotten Ones) and members of their priesthood passed on this magic. Alternatively, humans simply saw pictures in elven ruins and then called on demons to explain their significance. Also I've always wondered what became of the followers of Fen'Harel, who obviously wouldn't have been welcome in other elven communities. The old Dalish stories speak of elves mixing with the newly arrived humans and this have a detrimental effect on them mentally as well as physically. As the timelines show the humans arriving before the gods were locked away it could be the priesthood associated the rebellion with the co-habiting of elves and humans. They could also be recalling the time of chaos following the imprisonment of their gods. They erroneously blamed the humans for the loss of immortality, but they did bring diseases and it was this that caused many of the elves to retreat from contact. However, I'm sure not all elves withdrew and then inter-marriage meant that all traces of the elven ancestors were hidden in the blood. (I wonder if magic originally entered the human race through elf blooded children). Anyway, since we now know that the ancient elven empire was a corrupt as the Imperium, I wouldn't be surprised if Tevinter got much of its early magical knowledge either from elven ruins or renegade elves. As for dream walking according to Mihris in Masked Empire, the Dalish teach that those in uthenera could visit people in their dreams. The ancients could see the whole world and tell their followers where their enemies were and in what number. They could also send spirits to do their bidding and help their followers. Then Felassan says "They could kill their enemies as they slept", as though finishing what Mihris was recounting before mocking the idea. To my mind, knowing what we now do, I think that what Mihris was saying was pretty near the mark and that is why Felassan rubbished the concept. So essentially Dream Walkers could kill their enemies in their sleep. I think originally mages started using blood magic in order to try and replicate the powers of Dreamers. So even if blood magic wasn't necessary before the Veil, it was something that was felt to be needed after it.
|
|
jastall
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire
Posts: 341 Likes: 583
inherit
3138
0
583
jastall
341
Jan 30, 2017 21:13:28 GMT
January 2017
jastall
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire
|
Post by jastall on Nov 18, 2018 22:50:49 GMT
Powerful Mages are obviously far, far above anyone else it seems; Solas is the greatest example, but even guys like Corypheus, Saarath or the most powerful Magisters are forces to be reckoned with and I don't see how one normie can stand against them bar extreme circumstances (such as a masterful assassination) or having special abilities of their own like the Anchor or Templar abilities.
The average mages, well, that depends what average is. A random Circle mage that is only allowed to use combat magic in dire circumstances is probably going to fall to an experienced warrior or rogue that knows how to defeat his kind. But in other societies things might be different; a Dalish mage, even if not a First or Keeper, is allowed to use their gifts and thus is probably more than a match for all but Companion or even PC-tier normals 1v1. Same for a Tevinter magus, or a Saarebas who lack training but make up for it in raw power. And Blood Mages probably trounce anyone who is specifically prepared for them.
But for sure, take a random mage against a random normal, even a decently trained fighter, and the mage wins 99% of the time. Remember, companions are not normal or anywhere near average. All the non-mage ones are gifted, very experienced, or both, when they're not just weird like Fenris or Cole.
|
|
inherit
529
0
7,815
Nightscrawl
3,266
August 2016
nightscrawl
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Nightscrawl on Nov 19, 2018 18:23:21 GMT
But for sure, take a random mage against a random normal, even a decently trained fighter, and the mage wins 99% of the time. Remember, companions are not normal or anywhere near average. All the non-mage ones are gifted, very experienced, or both, when they're not just weird like Fenris or Cole. Definitely. I think it's important to remember that our non-mage PCs and non-mage followers are exceptional people. The average person in Thedas isn't going to be nearly so powerful and savvy in combat. I don't think it at all an exaggeration to say that, even an average mage is "superior" to the average bloke (read: peasant) in Thedas. Being able to roast someone from a distance with even a half-assed fireball is a huge advantage.
|
|
lilyonce
N3
The whole universe is...
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2
Posts: 277 Likes: 125
inherit
1185
0
Jan 11, 2020 17:30:36 GMT
125
lilyonce
The whole universe is...
277
Aug 24, 2016 23:34:41 GMT
August 2016
lilyonce
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2
|
Post by lilyonce on Nov 19, 2018 22:24:14 GMT
[snip]So essentially Dream Walkers could kill their enemies in their sleep. I think originally mages started using blood magic in order to try and replicate the powers of Dreamers.So even if blood magic wasn't necessary before the Veil, it was something that was felt to be needed after it. So do you see what I'm saying about Tevinter magic being built on and purposed for domination? I think this is a perfect example of it. That you say they felt it was necessary really drives it home to me. They developed a magic of domination that would give them access to a magic that they could use for ever more domination. And could they use it for things other than domination? I'm not sure what else you use assassination magic for is the problem. I think comparing Tevinter and Rivain side by side would help illuminate what kind of magic tradition and culture Tevinter really has. "Tevinter and Rivain: A tale of two magocracies." I need to get on it.
|
|
xerrai
N3
Posts: 839 Likes: 1,155
inherit
1451
0
1,155
xerrai
839
September 2016
xerrai
|
Post by xerrai on Nov 26, 2018 18:44:03 GMT
There's no doubt that Tevinter has, and continues to do, terrible things with their magic. But there's also no denying that there is education and technique in these terrible things. Dream walking techniques, knowing that elves have more magic in their blood than humans, figuring out that blood can dominate thoughts, etc. Not that I endorse the terrible things they do with their techniques, but I do have to admit that they have knowledge. But I also can't ignore the headway the Tevinter education system makes toward inventing 'good' things either. But they don't develop knowledge randomly. They develop much of their magic for the purpose of control. Its counted as knowledge by them because it enables that purpose. And its not just that they use their magic for terrible things- the magic itself is a form of domination. Mind control is domination. Binding spirits is domination. They developed these things where other cultures did not. And I thought dream walking came from the elves? The Litany may not have been necessary at all. I think the Tevinter worldview is why demons exist in the first place- though they aren't the first civilization to have it. And they developed the mind control that made the Litany useful in the first place. And they're certainly the reason the blights exist and why the Joining is even needed. I can't give their magic credit for solutions to problems it created. They didn't invent it did they? I don't remember but I don't think so. And if it was the elves that developed it- Tevinter is the only country that knows anything about it because they wiped out the culture that came up with it. I (think I) see what you are saying, but I fail to see how Tevinter's knowledge, regardless of origin or purpose, fails to be knowledge just because it came from some other place or is geared to some specific philosophy or worldview. I can critique thier magic traditions as being domination based or overly reliant on the suffering of others, but I believe that knowledge is knowledge--regardless of origin. And for better or worse, Tevinter has a magical tradition that holds, has held and continues to develop thier knowledge. Even if it a great deal of it was appropriated or derived from Arlathan. So what if they didn't invent it? So what if they created a partial solution to a problem that they caused? So what if it focuses on domination (terrible though it may be)? Knowledge is knowledge. I don't believe "knowledge" has be to be invented or held by one person, culture or country to still count as knowledge. The main point I was trying to make about Tevinter's magical education originally, is that it has and continues to develop (thier) knowledge on magic. And how that development was partially because of how they were not curtailed by traditional Chantry limitations. And because I feel like it deserves a special mention...while Tevinter undoubtedly learned or appropriated a lot of thier magics from Arlathan, I don't think its crazy to say that that the the line between 'inventing' and 'rediscovering' became blurred the more they started discovering new things about magic. Let's take blood magic and dreamwalking as an example. This codex notes that they originally didn't consider a blood magic a school of its own until they "discovered" spells that could only be operated with blood. The specific examples included in the codex included finding the sleeping minds of others, viewing dreams and dominating the thoughts and minds of others. Sure, we know that the elves almost definitely discovered these sorts of things before them, but did the Tevinters know that? It could be that they simply refused to acknowledge its origin from the ancient elves. Or it could very well be that they just learned or stumbled upon a "new" discovery that the elves just-so-happened to discover beforehand. With how certain they are of thier superiority over Arlathan, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to find that they the magics they preen about being 'discovered' or 'invented' were actually arts and phenomena discovered by the elves ages ago. They just don't know that yet.
|
|
Lulupab
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
Posts: 95 Likes: 133
inherit
2141
0
May 18, 2023 16:57:29 GMT
133
Lulupab
95
November 2016
lulupab
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
|
Post by Lulupab on Dec 22, 2018 9:38:24 GMT
You can't blame something on magic in a world where the foundations are based on magic.
How many people do you see blaming the wind when a tornado hits? It would be the same here. If something is a magical solution for a magical problem, it does not it make it any less valid.
This whole world exists because of someone's magical solution to a magical problem, aka the veil. Do you think blood magic would even matter if the veil didn't exist? Some would argue blood magic gained relevance due to the existence of the veil and how much it limits flow of magic. So for more power, people turned to life force. But they wouldn't need to otherwise.
And if you pay close attention, you can see a repeat pattern in Elves of Arlathan, old Tevinter and now seekers. What they did when in power is essentially the same, but the scale is different because each had less power (figurative and actual magical power) than the previous one.
|
|
inherit
Darth Dennis
111
0
Jul 27, 2022 16:20:32 GMT
9,146
masterwarderz
8,113
August 2016
mastermasterwarderz
19,824
|
Post by masterwarderz on Jan 18, 2019 22:08:41 GMT
You can't blame something on magic in a world where the foundations are based on magic. You quite easily can however, when practice of certain "schools" of magic goes against written accord and law, it becomes a crime. If you want to judge anything and everything by some metaphysical level, then perhaps it can make some modicum of sense but beyond that level of meta scale its still criminalized across the world. The pursuit of "more power" hardly overrides existing legislation upon the matter, after all officially speaking, even the Imperium has outlawed Blood Magic. The "Foundations" of the world as you put it are quite irrelevant when not staring at things at such a height, after all, no one really interacts at that level with the world, the fact that most matter is comprised primarily of carbon means less then nothing to the people in the world, you know what does effect them however? If the King in his Palace three hundred miles up the road decides to raise taxes. Likewise that impacts culture, tradition, and heritage, things matter infinitely more then "where and how", how magic interacts with the world matters infinitely less then how that interaction is perceived and managed. The written law, custom and culture of a world matter far more then its metaphysics unless if those are directly being contested to overturn it, turning gravity into gravy for example is a far time to be concerned about such things, photons directly becoming energy, likewise concerning, but beyond these things though? No, not really its ultimately pretty irrelevant if you ask me.
|
|
Lulupab
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
Posts: 95 Likes: 133
inherit
2141
0
May 18, 2023 16:57:29 GMT
133
Lulupab
95
November 2016
lulupab
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
|
Post by Lulupab on Jan 19, 2019 8:51:39 GMT
You can't blame something on magic in a world where the foundations are based on magic. You quite easily can however, when practice of certain "schools" of magic goes against written accord and law, it becomes a crime. If you want to judge anything and everything by some metaphysical level, then perhaps it can make some modicum of sense but beyond that level of meta scale its still criminalized across the world. The pursuit of "more power" hardly overrides existing legislation upon the matter, after all officially speaking, even the Imperium has outlawed Blood Magic. The "Foundations" of the world as you put it are quite irrelevant when not staring at things at such a height, after all, no one really interacts at that level with the world, the fact that most matter is comprised primarily of carbon means less then nothing to the people in the world, you know what does effect them however? If the King in his Palace three hundred miles up the road decides to raise taxes. Likewise that impacts culture, tradition, and heritage, things matter infinitely more then "where and how", how magic interacts with the world matters infinitely less then how that interaction is perceived and managed. The written law, custom and culture of a world matter far more then its metaphysics unless if those are directly being contested to overturn it, turning gravity into gravy for example is a far time to be concerned about such things, photons directly becoming energy, likewise concerning, but beyond these things though? No, not really its ultimately pretty irrelevant if you ask me. We weren't talking about individuals using magic though, we were talking about fade and its entities. Its part of Thedas as Thedas is part of it. Events regarding fade are not so different than our natural occurrences. Some bad and some good. You can't blame magic in this scenario, it would be like blaming the sun, the ocean or the earth. The veil is an abnormal and twisted event that never meant to happen, in this case you can blame person who created it. The raw nature of the world of dragon age is intertwined with magic and entities who cannot survive in that state of Thedas, do not deserve to survive at all if you use pure evolutionary logic like you just did. If a species can only thrive when the sun is blotted out at the expense of others to survive, then they are the ones to blame, not the natural inhabitants of the world. The veil is very likely temporary. It might even go away with Solas's death, as we have seen most magic go away when the caster dies. Either way with revealed lore the veil doesn't seem permanent. Someone can always remove it or it can go away on its own. And then no one can blame magic for that.
|
|