inherit
7754
0
Apr 18, 2024 17:10:28 GMT
3,397
biggydx
Finished Dissertation long ago lol. Now happily employed :D
2,202
Apr 17, 2017 16:08:05 GMT
April 2017
biggydx
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by biggydx on Oct 22, 2018 18:05:36 GMT
Or should you have to make neutral, or even morally evil, choices in order to achieve the best ending possible? I know "best" sometimes borders the line between objective/subjective, but I do think there is some merit in having to make some decisions that fall outside your own morality. Though we're obviously dealing in science-fiction, sometimes the most jarring (but memorable) moments in media are when morally good/righteous characters make a decision they deem as good, only to negatively affect everyone else around them. A recent example of this is in the game Assassins Creed: Odyssey. In the beginning section of the game, you have a choice to save the life of a family that survived a plague outbreak (in one of the towns) from a group of radical priests that want to slay them; in hopes of saving others. A child friend of yours, Phoibe, advocates that you save their life. If you do, though the family gives you a reward and Phoibe thanks you, the plague ultimately spread throughout much of the island once you leave and return again. I know that, generally speaking, most players prefer to play the morally good route, but making people uncomfortable with the decisions they make is what helps foster player investment in the story. If I can just choose to be a nice guy at every instance and never be punished for it, then really, what point is their to morality affecting my choices in the first place? The same goes for being morally abhorrent. I don't think constantly picking the morally evil or selfish option should inevitably lead you down the path of having the worst ending ever. Going back to that AC:O example I gave, maybe choosing the other option is the better outcome for everyone, even if it is seen as morally reprehensible by others; in the game.
|
|
inherit
1227
0
3,662
Phantom
2,657
August 2016
deathscepter
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire
|
Post by Phantom on Oct 22, 2018 18:07:52 GMT
what is morally good choice? is it short term feel good choices or is it long term choices that helps Many people?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
133
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2018 18:33:35 GMT
If we are all knowing and all seeing, then we could certainly "take the long view" of moral choices (kill the villagers, save the larger island population) … except we don't possess that knowledge of future consequences.
Of course, a second play through of a game could help us … but life doesn't give us a second play through.
In video games, maybe the solution is to have unintended consequences for any of the choices … so that even in a second play through, picking a different option, we might be dismayed at the results.
By the fourth or fifth play through, we might be aware enough to pick the lesser of evils (or the bigger evil, if that is your want) and live with the downsides to our decisions. Not perfect, but this gets us as closer to real life, that has no do-overs.
Perhaps another way … the video game randomizes some of the consequences on each play through (they still have to make sense), so regardless of the number of runs you do, there is a significant chance of various unintended consequences playing out for any of your choices.
In the end, maybe you have to work extra hard for the "best" result and still be left with multiple less-than-optimum side effects that you have to live with. Kind of like life.
Could make replay-ability a bigger thing. Or make folks hate the game, because they are not guaranteed the best possible outcome if they follow steps A+B+C in cookbook fashion.
Personally, I'd prefer a bit of the randomness of results to creep in.
|
|
inherit
♨ Retired
24
0
Apr 23, 2024 22:38:36 GMT
24,254
themikefest
14,808
August 2016
themikefest
21,655
15,426
|
Post by themikefest on Oct 22, 2018 18:46:18 GMT
What do you consider morally good? Click on the link in my signature. Would you say my Shepard is morally good?
|
|
inherit
7754
0
Apr 18, 2024 17:10:28 GMT
3,397
biggydx
Finished Dissertation long ago lol. Now happily employed :D
2,202
Apr 17, 2017 16:08:05 GMT
April 2017
biggydx
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by biggydx on Oct 22, 2018 19:10:14 GMT
For clarity, we can go with "Morally Good" being the Paragon option(s)
|
|
inherit
1227
0
3,662
Phantom
2,657
August 2016
deathscepter
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire
|
Post by Phantom on Oct 22, 2018 19:39:13 GMT
well for dark mirror of a Morally Good aka Paragon, Paragon of Our Kind is a supposedly Morally Good organization but to them relying on a form of Insane Troll Logic pushing them to oppose the PC regardless of the PC's personal morality. In Addition of Insane Troll Logic, they have Intelligence and intense knowledge of Law and use the Law to direct and indirect slow down the PC.
Well Right now, it is more in a rough draft. Also Paragon Of Our Kind can work either in Milk Way or Andromeda.
|
|
Basquemercat117
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Posts: 182 Likes: 120
inherit
4251
0
120
Basquemercat117
182
March 2017
ajew8887
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
|
Post by Basquemercat117 on Oct 22, 2018 20:52:57 GMT
i think if you want to have a paragon/renegade mechanic (i.e. a commutable and morality gathering system) you have to kinda have a good choices=better results. But if you just exclude that and just have choices (such as yours AC:O example you just simply choose kill the villagers or save them). Granted there is always the debate of choosing what is the good choice or not.
|
|
copper
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 567 Likes: 1,084
inherit
9638
0
1,084
copper
567
Dec 22, 2017 21:33:14 GMT
December 2017
copper
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by copper on Oct 22, 2018 21:31:48 GMT
I think it would be definitely be interesting to have a game that does have choices that can be approached from different moral philosophy angles, such as utilitarianism being a motivator for a "bad" choice. In some choices of the trilogy a renegade choice could fit the "ends justify the means" approach but just as often renegade Shep could just be a jerk for the chaotic fun of it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
10036
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2018 0:58:56 GMT
I don't think it's the role of a video game to purport to teach people what is or is not "morally good" or "morally bad." I think the authors of the story have to first decide what sort of character/decisions fit whatever the plot line is in the basic story they want to tell. After deciding that, they have to decide what sort of range or latitude of choices they can offer that still fits that story framework and that doesn't completely blow their budget out of the water to produce.
I've often said that its the fans who have applied the idea that paragon = good and renegade = bad to the game. That's not the basic definition of either of those two terms and I also think that, within Mass Effect, there were plenty of instances where, in my subjective opinion, the renegade choice led directly to a better solution to that conversation than the paragon one.
i also think that if gaming companies start to purport to be teaching their young players morality they are going to get a lot of complaints from parents. For obvious reasons, they cannot start to preach that being corrupt or criminal or depraved leads to anything truly good since societal norms would then be quick to condemn that game. It would probably at the very least garner it an AO rating or equivalent in several countries.
|
|
SwobyJ
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 2,073 Likes: 2,096
inherit
2698
0
Apr 23, 2024 14:34:52 GMT
2,096
SwobyJ
2,073
January 2017
swobyj
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by SwobyJ on Oct 25, 2018 3:23:29 GMT
Bioware should look at every option and then ask "How could this go wrong?", get several answers, and both do one of those outcomes scattered through the game, but also do smaller versions of those outcomes regardless. That is, you do good to do good (as you see it), not do good for a necessarily completely expected and happily anticipated outcome.
Exception is something I saw explored to a ..small? extent in ME3. That there can be a 'perfect' (in some people's view looking for perfection) ending, but it is also easily the most concerning.
But I think Bioware is still too concerned with just being 'the hero'. This colors the choices and not in a great way IMO. I actually don't think being a paragon, in concept (like, the word) should mean ending up being basically really happy with almost all of your choices. I think it should be, and sometimes slightly was, about trying to maintain a sense of moral integrity even as *everything* bears down upon it, in the hopes that at the end of things, you're happy enough. There can still be a 'perfect' ending of this, but its super hard to get and it will recognize your mistakes, just mistakes you accept. ME3 seemed too happy to ignore your 'bads'; Mordin, oh he was meant to die even though there's technically a way around it, etc.
|
|
dmc1001
N7
Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
Prime Posts: 77
Posts: 9,941 Likes: 17,668
inherit
Biotic Booty
1031
0
Apr 19, 2024 16:40:05 GMT
17,668
dmc1001
9,941
August 2016
dmc1001
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
ferroboy
77
|
Post by dmc1001 on Oct 25, 2018 6:44:01 GMT
If you shoot enough people in the back, you end up with no friends. That leads to bad endings because the number of people who would rally to your side is less. Others may still fight, but with divided tactics, goals (save "my" planet vs. save the galaxy) and believing their own top dog will serve in the renegade's place. There are instances where even a paragon can make renegade choices but generally speaking there needs to be a person who isn't out to screw over everyone in their path in order to get a decent outcome.
|
|
SwobyJ
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 2,073 Likes: 2,096
inherit
2698
0
Apr 23, 2024 14:34:52 GMT
2,096
SwobyJ
2,073
January 2017
swobyj
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by SwobyJ on Oct 25, 2018 7:07:55 GMT
If you shoot enough people in the back, you end up with no friends. That leads to bad endings because the number of people who would rally to your side is less. Others may still fight, but with divided tactics, goals (save "my" planet vs. save the galaxy) and believing their own top dog will serve in the renegade's place. There are instances where even a paragon can make renegade choices but generally speaking there needs to be a person who isn't out to screw over everyone in their path in order to get a decent outcome. Well I'll put it this way. You're a really nice person. Or better, kind to others (I see a difference between the words). You're good to someone in an innocent situation, but it actually has another person jealous. 'Bad' has happened. You didn't mean for it to happen, but you also didn't have to take the action of being good to that person. That jealousy can grow and it must be dealt with, because of the context of when you were good. We enter our most dire conflicts over.... love. Peace. Safety. Happiness. Satisfaction. Unity. And you can blame the dividers/fighters/etc easily, but they weren't alone in their active part. So you're a moral 'paragon'. Great, but of what? Will others disagree with that particular paragon stance? Or how do you maintain promotion of that paragon stance? Really how many will you piss off? Sometimes the early scuffle that builds trust may actually build a respect that averts the eventual stab in the back. There were many opportunities to push that forward in ME. It was done sometimes, but not that often. Paragon can still be something that the majority of players can at least essentially agree with, without it being the automatic 'story win' button it at least was most of the time IMO. A Paragon action shouldn't necessarily be a trigger to shoot some friend/ally/etc, sure, but a Paragon action could have been trusting someone even when you know it'll bother another, or catching your lover from falling even if it lets a crowd fall to their deaths (they could even fall regardless, but lets say that you catching your lover is not seen kindly by certain factional parties compared to otherwise). Or something. Basically the protag has their moral code and benevolent feelings towards others but taking action on those sentiments 100% of the time is sure to show as weakness, or uselessness, or even betrayal power structures you serve and rely on for resources, and so on. Imagine if it took an early threatening standoff with Wrex (not killing, but Renegade approach to things up to that) to ensure the most 'points' for a desired outcome (to refer to how Rannoch peace could happen) as it could show Wrex early how much you mean business about him when it comes down to it. Imagine if you were very permissive of him, in a later game Wrex charges into something against your orders, and disregards your commands because while you're a nice guy, X action is super important to him and he doesn't need to stay in line.
|
|
inherit
3439
0
9,168
alanc9
Old Scientist Contrarian
7,822
February 2017
alanc9
|
Post by alanc9 on Oct 25, 2018 18:27:49 GMT
i think if you want to have a paragon/renegade mechanic (i.e. a commutable and morality gathering system) you have to kinda have a good choices=better results. Why?
|
|
Basquemercat117
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Posts: 182 Likes: 120
inherit
4251
0
120
Basquemercat117
182
March 2017
ajew8887
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
|
Post by Basquemercat117 on Oct 25, 2018 22:04:57 GMT
i think if you want to have a paragon/renegade mechanic (i.e. a commutable and morality gathering system) you have to kinda have a good choices=better results. Why? Because if you have a P/R system you have to decide what choices are pargon/ renegade, and if you gather all its points for no good reasons why even bother with it. granted when i said this i was thinking of ME P/R where it was really good choice vs bad choice. In Me2 and ME3 it was more do you respond as a nice person or a dick
|
|
inherit
4578
0
5,014
griffith82
Hope for the best, plan for the worst
4,259
Mar 15, 2017 21:36:52 GMT
March 2017
griffith82
|
Post by griffith82 on Oct 26, 2018 1:44:08 GMT
Because if you have a P/R system you have to decide what choices are pargon/ renegade, and if you gather all its points for no good reasons why even bother with it. granted when i said this i was thinking of ME P/R where it was really good choice vs bad choice. In Me2 and ME3 it was more do you respond as a nice person or a dick Eh not really imo. I do see your viewpoint though.
|
|
dmc1001
N7
Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
Prime Posts: 77
Posts: 9,941 Likes: 17,668
inherit
Biotic Booty
1031
0
Apr 19, 2024 16:40:05 GMT
17,668
dmc1001
9,941
August 2016
dmc1001
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
ferroboy
77
|
Post by dmc1001 on Oct 26, 2018 4:53:31 GMT
SwobyJ: Yes, I get all that. I said even the Paragon route can have Renegade choices. For example, I always push that bastard merc out of the tower during Thane's recruitment mission. There are other places, as well. What I said was that there are instances where Renegade works even as a Paragon but if you shoot enough people in the back you won't have any allies and others won't trust you.
|
|
inherit
3439
0
9,168
alanc9
Old Scientist Contrarian
7,822
February 2017
alanc9
|
Post by alanc9 on Oct 26, 2018 6:16:40 GMT
Because if you have a P/R system you have to decide what choices are pargon/ renegade, and if you gather all its points for no good reasons why even bother with it. granted when i said this i was thinking of ME P/R where it was really good choice vs bad choice. In Me2 and ME3 it was more do you respond as a nice person or a dick But this assumes that the awful ME2 persuasion mechanic needs to be supported. I don't think that's true.
|
|
SwobyJ
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 2,073 Likes: 2,096
inherit
2698
0
Apr 23, 2024 14:34:52 GMT
2,096
SwobyJ
2,073
January 2017
swobyj
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by SwobyJ on Oct 27, 2018 0:33:57 GMT
ME2 P/R is the worst except for the idea of resolving crew confrontations with it, and the increased P/R characterization of Shepard (but I'd have preferred a more fleshed out writing if you were neither).
|
|
inherit
4578
0
5,014
griffith82
Hope for the best, plan for the worst
4,259
Mar 15, 2017 21:36:52 GMT
March 2017
griffith82
|
Post by griffith82 on Oct 27, 2018 3:19:02 GMT
Because if you have a P/R system you have to decide what choices are pargon/ renegade, and if you gather all its points for no good reasons why even bother with it. granted when i said this i was thinking of ME P/R where it was really good choice vs bad choice. In Me2 and ME3 it was more do you respond as a nice person or a dick But this assumes that the awful ME2 persuasion mechanic needs to be supported. I don't think that's true. The interupts? I liked those. Unless you mean certain dialogue is locked out if you go a certain path but same happens in ME1.
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
Apr 23, 2024 17:30:54 GMT
30,246
Hanako Ikezawa
22,353
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 27, 2018 3:26:39 GMT
But this assumes that the awful ME2 persuasion mechanic needs to be supported. I don't think that's true. The interupts? I liked those. Unless you mean certain dialogue is locked out if you go a certain path but same happens in ME1. Eh, the Interrupts definitely needed work. MEA addressed my main issue with them, in that you now actually know what your character will do. But I think they mean the decisions where you needed to have enough Paragon or Renegade to use those options, like breaking up the fights. ME3 did better where it combined them for Reputation.
|
|
inherit
4578
0
5,014
griffith82
Hope for the best, plan for the worst
4,259
Mar 15, 2017 21:36:52 GMT
March 2017
griffith82
|
Post by griffith82 on Oct 27, 2018 3:31:24 GMT
The interupts? I liked those. Unless you mean certain dialogue is locked out if you go a certain path but same happens in ME1. Eh, the Interrupts definitely needed work. MEA addressed my main issue with them, in that you now actually know what your character will do. But I think they mean the decisions where you needed to have enough Paragon or Renegade to use those options, like breaking up the fights. ME3 did better where it combined them for Reputation. It was kinda obvious to me, blue good red bad. But yeah o see your point. The fights however needed explanation. That if you triggered it too soon you couldn't solve it. It was a bit of a pain but I just made sure not to trigger it early. First playthrough though I knew because I had the guide.
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
Apr 23, 2024 17:30:54 GMT
30,246
Hanako Ikezawa
22,353
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 27, 2018 3:40:23 GMT
Eh, the Interrupts definitely needed work. MEA addressed my main issue with them, in that you now actually know what your character will do. But I think they mean the decisions where you needed to have enough Paragon or Renegade to use those options, like breaking up the fights. ME3 did better where it combined them for Reputation. It was kinda obvious to me, blue good red bad. But yeah o see your point. The fights however needed explanation. That if you triggered it too soon you couldn't solve it. It was a bit of a pain but I just made sure not to trigger it early. First playthrough though I knew because I had the guide. Well yeah but having more detail would have been good. For example I remember someone saying when they took the one Renegade option in Garrus' recruitment mission they thought they would steal the tool not use it to brutally kill a guy.
|
|
inherit
4578
0
5,014
griffith82
Hope for the best, plan for the worst
4,259
Mar 15, 2017 21:36:52 GMT
March 2017
griffith82
|
Post by griffith82 on Oct 27, 2018 11:10:11 GMT
It was kinda obvious to me, blue good red bad. But yeah o see your point. The fights however needed explanation. That if you triggered it too soon you couldn't solve it. It was a bit of a pain but I just made sure not to trigger it early. First playthrough though I knew because I had the guide. Well yeah but having more detail would have been good. For example I remember someone saying when they took the one Renegade option in Garrus' recruitment mission they thought they would steal the tool not use it to brutally kill a guy. Good point. I can see that.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
10036
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2018 11:42:34 GMT
It was kinda obvious to me, blue good red bad. But yeah o see your point. The fights however needed explanation. That if you triggered it too soon you couldn't solve it. It was a bit of a pain but I just made sure not to trigger it early. First playthrough though I knew because I had the guide. Well yeah but having more detail would have been good. For example I remember someone saying when they took the one Renegade option in Garrus' recruitment mission they thought they would steal the tool not use it to brutally kill a guy. Yeah, there were a few instances where I was caught a little off guard during my first playthrough and other times where I really hesitated to try out the option I wanted because I was somewhat afraid of what the PC might do. Still, I look at it from the aspect of it being a game and, in games, sometimes the dice will land you on a square that takes your game in an unexpected direction. I usually don't worry about refining my RP until a second or third playthrough... and that process continues until I figure I've exhausted the different sorts of characters I figure I can RP with that game.
|
|
inherit
3439
0
9,168
alanc9
Old Scientist Contrarian
7,822
February 2017
alanc9
|
Post by alanc9 on Oct 27, 2018 22:01:01 GMT
Eh, the Interrupts definitely needed work. MEA addressed my main issue with them, in that you now actually know what your character will do. But I think they mean the decisions where you needed to have enough Paragon or Renegade to use those options, like breaking up the fights. ME3 did better where it combined them for Reputation. It was kinda obvious to me, blue good red bad. But yeah o see your point. The fights however needed explanation. That if you triggered it too soon you couldn't solve it. It was a bit of a pain but I just made sure not to trigger it early. First playthrough though I knew because I had the guide. Triggering them late only work if you're playing straight P or R. Otherwise, your persuasion score gets worse as the game continues. It doesn't really matter. ME2's awful system isn't coming back.
|
|