ahglock
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Post by ahglock on Nov 2, 2018 3:59:05 GMT
Now personally I'd prefer a new protagonist, just didn't like Ryder. But, I doubt that will happen. Thing is where do you go from MEA1 you are level 9 million every skill is maxed at 6, where do you go. ME2 solved this by killing Shepard and rebooting you to level 1. The logical trauma that could cause a reboot in MEA2 would be the loss of SAM. Now they can just ignore it and reboot you, or I guess they can do something like all skills now go to 9 for more absurd power. But my bet assuming there is a MEA2 is you lose SAM. Which is fine for me as I did not like the concept or execution. Does anyone think they can keep your level and go to MEA2? Or have another way of rebooting you that fits the story?
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Just a flip of the coin.
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Post by Sanunes on Nov 2, 2018 7:24:40 GMT
Now personally I'd prefer a new protagonist, just didn't like Ryder. But, I doubt that will happen. Thing is where do you go from MEA1 you are level 9 million every skill is maxed at 6, where do you go. ME2 solved this by killing Shepard and rebooting you to level 1. The logical trauma that could cause a reboot in MEA2 would be the loss of SAM. Now they can just ignore it and reboot you, or I guess they can do something like all skills now go to 9 for more absurd power. But my bet assuming there is a MEA2 is you lose SAM. Which is fine for me as I did not like the concept or execution. Does anyone think they can keep your level and go to MEA2? Or have another way of rebooting you that fits the story? The thing about SAM is that was the excuse so we could have classless builds, which made skills boring IMO for I preferred Mass Effect 2 and 3's approach. So if they remove SAM I think they could just reset Ryder to level 1 for they no longer have access to the skills the same way as before and needs to relearn it. Storywise with SAM they (the AI) could not like how dependent the Pathfinders are on SAM and decide to alter the technology so that SAM is still there, but just enough to prevent the Pathfinders from dying from being separated. So that way the skills are still the same level and such for things kinda still work the same, but not quite as superpowered. If they stick with what was there before and want to stay at the current level they could always just add a new evolution to the existing ranks so maybe have three choices for ranks 4, 5, and 6 and I think that would help eliminate power creep and keep Ryder at a sane level.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2018 13:31:12 GMT
The thing is, Ryder did not lose any skills at the end of ME:A when operating without SAM. In fact, he/she proved she had actually learned to manipulate Remnant tech on his/her own. SAM is not what gives Ryder his/her skills, experience does that. In the end, SAM is merely the communications link with the remnant and/or the Tempest and Nexus from where Ryder is and a means of gathering data about the environment. It must be something about the implant itself that enables the "on the fly" switching of profiles. The easiest way to force a skill reset for a sequel is to compel the player to play as the other twin... who was caught up to speed in communicating with the remnant by the Archon, but who has not developed the same level of biotic/combat skills as the Pathfinder due to a lack of field experience.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 2, 2018 14:16:40 GMT
I agree. Get rid of the sam thing. I also agree about having a new main character, if there's to be another game in Andromeda.
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Post by burningcherry on Nov 2, 2018 16:27:31 GMT
The thing is, Ryder did not lose any skills at the end of ME:A when operating without SAM. In fact, he/she proved she had actually learned to manipulate Remnant tech on his/her own. SAM is not what gives Ryder his/her skills, experience does that. In the end, SAM is merely the communications link with the remnant and/or the Tempest and Nexus from where Ryder is and a means of gathering data about the environment. This is not fully true. Biotic potential or Remnant communication skills remain after losing SAM, but it's SAM that grants resilience or reflexes, see how Cora's and Alec's performances change when they allow their SAMs to work inside of/overclock their bodies in Initiation.
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Just a flip of the coin.
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Post by Sanunes on Nov 2, 2018 18:38:41 GMT
The thing is, Ryder did not lose any skills at the end of ME:A when operating without SAM. In fact, he/she proved she had actually learned to manipulate Remnant tech on his/her own. SAM is not what gives Ryder his/her skills, experience does that. In the end, SAM is merely the communications link with the remnant and/or the Tempest and Nexus from where Ryder is and a means of gathering data about the environment. It must be something about the implant itself that enables the "on the fly" switching of profiles. The easiest way to force a skill reset for a sequel is to compel the player to play as the other twin... who was caught up to speed in communicating with the remnant by the Archon, but who has not developed the same level of biotic/combat skills as the Pathfinder due to a lack of field experience. Even though the connection to SAM was more limited at the end of the game it was still there because when they didn't have the link I believe the joke was made that Ryder was dead again. So when they were opening the doors SAM might not have been doing the brunt of the work, but SAM was still in the background and at the same time damage was being done to cause Ryder's brain to hemorrhage. So it wasn't something that Ryder was able to do without any consequence without SAM. The way I have always looked at it is that SAM is a tool, but taking away a tool if you are dependent on it when preforming a task doesn't mean you can still do that task without great effort or even having to relearn how to do that task for that tool could have made the task easier then doing it without.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2018 19:13:51 GMT
The thing is, Ryder did not lose any skills at the end of ME:A when operating without SAM. In fact, he/she proved she had actually learned to manipulate Remnant tech on his/her own. SAM is not what gives Ryder his/her skills, experience does that. In the end, SAM is merely the communications link with the remnant and/or the Tempest and Nexus from where Ryder is and a means of gathering data about the environment. It must be something about the implant itself that enables the "on the fly" switching of profiles. The easiest way to force a skill reset for a sequel is to compel the player to play as the other twin... who was caught up to speed in communicating with the remnant by the Archon, but who has not developed the same level of biotic/combat skills as the Pathfinder due to a lack of field experience. Even though the connection to SAM was more limited at the end of the game it was still there because when they didn't have the link I believe the joke was made that Ryder was dead again. So when they were opening the doors SAM might not have been doing the brunt of the work, but SAM was still in the background and at the same time damage was being done to cause Ryder's brain to hemorrhage. So it wasn't something that Ryder was able to do without any consequence without SAM. The way I have always looked at it is that SAM is a tool, but taking away a tool if you are dependent on it when preforming a task doesn't mean you can still do that task without great effort or even having to relearn how to do that task for that tool could have made the task easier then doing it without. Again, the PC does not lose any skills out of their skill tree when operating without SAM. He/she is not knocked down any levels. So, eliminating SAM for the purpose of resetting the Pathfinder's skill tree to Level 1 at the beginning of a sequel would not be lore consistent. In addition, the PC is still able to switch profiles on the fly during that final battle. That it takes some effort is obvious; but it doesn't take the Pathfinder back a Level 1 skill set. What they do is set up the twin as the Level 1 skilll set. We even play as the twin at Level 1 for a time at the end of ME:A.
My honest guess is that they planned to have us play as the non-pathfinder twin in ME:A2. t
ETA: Besides, SAM clearly indicates: "The Archon has SEVERED my link to your brother's/sister's implant..." SAM eventually works through the twin's implant and there is a connection between the twins that goes deeper than the implant. There is no implant connection between SAM and that Pathfinder during that final mission.
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Post by dmc1001 on Nov 2, 2018 19:45:42 GMT
I suggested SAM me moved from Ryder to Meridian to sort out how it works. That way we don't ignore the existence of SAM but still remove it from Ryder.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2018 19:52:19 GMT
I suggested SAM me moved from Ryder to Meridian to sort out how it works. That way we don't ignore the existence of SAM but still remove it from Ryder. Still doesn't resolve anything. Pathfinder Ryder clearly opted to reconnect with SAM at the end of ME:A. It's very unlikely that he/she would just change their minds about that and have the connection removed. The twin, however, has never really worked with SAM, so they could just choose for themselves not to develop any sort of dependency on it.
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 2, 2018 21:25:53 GMT
The way I have always looked at it is that SAM is a tool, but taking away a tool if you are dependent on it when preforming a task doesn't mean you can still do that task without great effort or even having to relearn how to do that task for that tool could have made the task easier then doing it without. Again, the PC does not lose any skills out of their skill tree when operating without SAM. However, Bio can just play gameplay/story segregation if they feel like it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2018 21:52:59 GMT
Again, the PC does not lose any skills out of their skill tree when operating without SAM. However, Bio can just play gameplay/story segregation if they feel like it. Of course they can do that as well. Personally, other than the vocal interruption (which could be easily toned down), I had no problems with SAM being in the game. If they don't want to continue with him, I really don't see much of a need to trump up some sort of "loss of SAM" scenario to change the gameplay regarding the PC's skill set. On that front, they could also just decide to handle it like ME3 where they did not kill off the PC in order to reset skill points. The bottom line for me is that, regardless of why they did it, killing off Shepard at the beginning of ME2 was a lame idea that adversely affected the story continuity. They shouldn't repeat a similar mistake.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 2, 2018 22:01:32 GMT
The easiest way to force a skill reset for a sequel is to compel the player to play as the other twin
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Dukemon
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Post by Dukemon on Nov 2, 2018 22:40:30 GMT
No, to separate Ryder from SAM (my Ryders would not agree). No, to magical reset of SAMs implementing into Ryders physio. No, to another new protagonist.
Ryders has alot of not explained questions. And I want to explore with my Ryder (mother, Ai,...) everything. And SAM. I would go one step further. Learn with SAM about SAMs, put Hyperion SAM in a secret base and only Ryders will know his exactly stay. Why does SAM would allow it? Because SAM does not want to harm Ryder anyway.
On some way, SAM is like a Digital Monster in Tamers.^^ But it did go a step further and is already a part of his Host. Both had to learn be with each other, in particular Ryder. In next Mass Effect I want to see the "Matrix Evolution" from Mass Effect with Ryder and SAM.
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Post by griffith82 on Nov 2, 2018 22:51:51 GMT
No, to separate Ryder from SAM (my Ryders would not agree). No, to magical reset of SAMs implementing into Ryders physio. No, to another new protagonist. Ryders has alot of not explained questions. And I want to explore with my Ryder (mother, Ai,...) everything. And SAM. I would go one step further. Learn with SAM about SAMs, put Hyperion SAM in a secret base and only Ryders will know his exactly stay. Why does SAM would allow it? Because SAM does not want to harm Ryder anyway. On some way, SAM is like a Digital Monster in Tamers.^^ But it did go a step further and is already a part of his Host. Both had to learn be with each other, in particular Ryder. In next Mass Effect I want to see the "Matrix Evolution" from Mass Effect with Ryder and SAM. I agree about keeping Sam, not about the Matrix part.
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Post by LogicGunn on Nov 2, 2018 23:14:53 GMT
Seperating Ryder and SAM would requite very clumsy story gymnastics, and really isn't worth it. If they don't want it in the next game, they'll probably have a new protag. I really want to continue with Ryder though.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2018 23:36:50 GMT
The easiest way to force a skill reset for a sequel is to compel the player to play as the other twin A way around it, is to assume the "other twin" was Pathfinder in MEA and the individual player's preferred twin is the primary protagonist in MEA2.
For me, it matters not. I played all seven character classes in unique runs, with both Ryders.
My only heartburn is the online game results will only show a max of 10 editable Ryder runs … they should do at least 14 and probably 20 … to allow folks to have a copy of all their runs that are editable in the world state. I pick 20, because I did 19 unique runs in the MET and given the size of MEA, I don't see too many folks going past 20 unique runs. It would also give some overhead past 14 runs, to allow creation of "imaginary" runs in the online tool … to set up a Ryder you never actually created or ran, with the choices you desire, to set up your preferred Ryder in MEA2. On the other hand, the other runs are available to bring into the top 10 … just not editable in the world state unless you move it to the top 10 and bump one of the other states.
If I only played a male Ryder in MEA and MEA2 was going to go with the opposite Ryder, based on my online MEA game results, I would create a new online game result, with a female Ryder and that would be the "world state" I would select for the start of MEA2. That way, I could stick with my male Ryder for the next installment.
Like I said, this isn't an issue for me. If they expand the number of runs the online tool supports, assuming MEA2 is worth the time, I would anticipate running the opposite Ryder for each of my runs … ending up again with 7 of each Ryder. I would think that would allow me to explore the various choices in the game … with the impact of my previous games' choices coming into play.
Oh … and I'm totally fine keeping SAM in the mix. I never objected to SAM, though I mostly didn't take advantage of SAM with respect to changing profiles on the fly. Even though I set up a few favorites in my runs, I pretty much ran with one class in each run.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 2, 2018 23:41:19 GMT
A way around it, is to assume the "other twin" was Pathfinder in MEA and the individual player's preferred twin is the primary protagonist in MEA2.
For me, it matters not. I played all seven character classes in unique runs, with both Ryders.
My only heartburn is the online game results will only show a max of 10 Ryder runs … they should do at least 14 and probably 20 … to allow folks to have a copy of all their runs. I pick 20, because I did 19 unique runs in the MET and given the size of MEA, I don't see too many folks going past 20 unique runs. It would also give some overhead past 14 runs, to allow creation of "imaginary" runs in the online tool … to set up a Ryder you never actually created or ran, with the choices you desire, to set up your preferred Ryder in MEA2.
If I only played a male Ryder in MEA and MEA2 was going to go with the opposite Ryder, based on my online MEA game results, I would create a new online game result, with a female Ryder and that would be the "game state" I would select for the start of MEA2. That way, I could stick with my male Ryder for the next installment.
Like I said, this isn't an issue for me. If they expand the number of runs the online tool supports, assuming MEA2 is worth the time, I would anticipate running the opposite Ryder for each of my runs … ending up again with 7 of each Ryder. I would think that would allow me to explore the various choices in the game … with the impact of my previous games' choices coming into play.
Oh … and I'm totally fine keeping SAM in the mix. I never objected to SAM, though I mostly didn't take advantage of SAM with respect to changing profiles on the fly. Even though I set up a few favorites in my runs, I pretty much ran with one class in each run.
The problem is though that simply making the last game be the Ryder you don’t want to play doesn’t work. For example that Ryder will still be seen as the one who did all the stuff in the first game, not the one you are playing as now. Then there are things like the friendships and romances being wiped away because again the last game was the other Ryder. Not that I’m really worried about this idea, since BioWare would never force you to play as only one sex.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2018 2:32:13 GMT
Fair points.
But I really would like to play the "other" Ryder … the one lacking the reputation as the "big gosh darn hero" … leaving their sibling to do all the hero Pathfinder things, while they strike out to establish their own reputation in Andromeda.
New friends, new LIs, maybe a ship that is not so sleek and fancy as the Tempest … more of a Firefly vibe.
SAM would still be a part of it … whether to the extent of SAM's involvement with the Pathfinder or not … meh, don't really care. I really didn't use the favorites options in MEA, can probably do without it in MEA2. And it would, as others have suggested, solve the issue of starting over at level 1.
If well done … and MEA2 was a success, I could see the story arc ping-ponging back and forth between the two Ryders in each installment … the overarching story progressing, but different adventures and different style of adventures in each succeeding installment. You could even have DLC drops in each installment, that take the storyline of the "other" Ryder. That would be fun … at least for me.
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Post by ahglock on Nov 3, 2018 2:56:42 GMT
I suggested SAM me moved from Ryder to Meridian to sort out how it works. That way we don't ignore the existence of SAM but still remove it from Ryder. Still doesn't resolve anything. Pathfinder Ryder clearly opted to reconnect with SAM at the end of ME:A. It's very unlikely that he/she would just change their minds about that and have the connection removed. The twin, however, has never really worked with SAM, so they could just choose for themselves not to develop any sort of dependency on it.
How much of Sam you lost is never fully explained, the cyberware at the very least was still there. A more complete loss could be the excuse for a skill reset. I had thought about the flipping Ryders idea, but I hate that idea even though it would technically work. I don't see how they can do another game without a reset or a new protagonist though, obviously other ryder would be the easiest protagonist but I would prefer an actual new one instead.
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Post by ahglock on Nov 3, 2018 2:59:13 GMT
Now personally I'd prefer a new protagonist, just didn't like Ryder. But, I doubt that will happen. Thing is where do you go from MEA1 you are level 9 million every skill is maxed at 6, where do you go. ME2 solved this by killing Shepard and rebooting you to level 1. The logical trauma that could cause a reboot in MEA2 would be the loss of SAM. Now they can just ignore it and reboot you, or I guess they can do something like all skills now go to 9 for more absurd power. But my bet assuming there is a MEA2 is you lose SAM. Which is fine for me as I did not like the concept or execution. Does anyone think they can keep your level and go to MEA2? Or have another way of rebooting you that fits the story? The thing about SAM is that was the excuse so we could have classless builds, which made skills boring IMO for I preferred Mass Effect 2 and 3's approach. So if they remove SAM I think they could just reset Ryder to level 1 for they no longer have access to the skills the same way as before and needs to relearn it. Storywise with SAM they (the AI) could not like how dependent the Pathfinders are on SAM and decide to alter the technology so that SAM is still there, but just enough to prevent the Pathfinders from dying from being separated. So that way the skills are still the same level and such for things kinda still work the same, but not quite as superpowered. If they stick with what was there before and want to stay at the current level they could always just add a new evolution to the existing ranks so maybe have three choices for ranks 4, 5, and 6 and I think that would help eliminate power creep and keep Ryder at a sane level. Yeah, I did not like the classless build system. I don't necessarily mind classless just how this one was done, especially with 3 max active powers. And while I guess they could add a new evolution going to rank 9 or 10 or something powers are already fairly over the top so I'm not sure I'd like the gameplay at that level.
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Just a flip of the coin.
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Post by Sanunes on Nov 3, 2018 3:15:00 GMT
The thing about SAM is that was the excuse so we could have classless builds, which made skills boring IMO for I preferred Mass Effect 2 and 3's approach. So if they remove SAM I think they could just reset Ryder to level 1 for they no longer have access to the skills the same way as before and needs to relearn it. Storywise with SAM they (the AI) could not like how dependent the Pathfinders are on SAM and decide to alter the technology so that SAM is still there, but just enough to prevent the Pathfinders from dying from being separated. So that way the skills are still the same level and such for things kinda still work the same, but not quite as superpowered. If they stick with what was there before and want to stay at the current level they could always just add a new evolution to the existing ranks so maybe have three choices for ranks 4, 5, and 6 and I think that would help eliminate power creep and keep Ryder at a sane level. Yeah, I did not like the classless build system. I don't necessarily mind classless just how this one was done, especially with 3 max active powers. And while I guess they could add a new evolution going to rank 9 or 10 or something powers are already fairly over the top so I'm not sure I'd like the gameplay at that level. For a classless system to work for me the entire system needs to be designed from the ground up to work that way, the way it was implemented was just taking what was implemented before in a class based system and removing the classes. When I am talking about adding more evolution I don't mean adding more by adding more ranks to the skill, but add more alternatives to the ranks that already exist. So right now ranks 4 to 6 have two evolutions, but what I am suggesting is change it to three evolutions, I think that would probably let people min/max more, but I don't think overall it would be as much of a problem as adding new ranks.
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dmc1001
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Post by dmc1001 on Nov 3, 2018 4:40:48 GMT
I suggested SAM me moved from Ryder to Meridian to sort out how it works. That way we don't ignore the existence of SAM but still remove it from Ryder. Still doesn't resolve anything. Pathfinder Ryder clearly opted to reconnect with SAM at the end of ME:A. It's very unlikely that he/she would just change their minds about that and have the connection removed. The twin, however, has never really worked with SAM, so they could just choose for themselves not to develop any sort of dependency on it.
Two easy solutions. One, SAM could be more needed on Meridian once they realize it can't be cracked without SAM. Hence, SAM is removed except on the most basic level, like what every pathfinder team has. Alternately, "you" stay behind and your twin goes on to be pathfinder. Really, it's not a stretch to handle this.
Simply put, SAM is there and there won't be a history rewrite to get rid of it. Either find a solution or complain.
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dmc1001
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Post by dmc1001 on Nov 3, 2018 4:42:53 GMT
But I really would like to play the "other" Ryder … the one lacking the reputation as the "big gosh darn hero" … leaving their sibling to do all the hero Pathfinder things, while they strike out to establish their own reputation in Andromeda. New friends, new LIs, maybe a ship that is not so sleek and fancy as the Tempest … more of a Firefly vibe. This works well and could help BW move away from a crew that got a lot of complaints.
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Sanunes
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Post by Sanunes on Nov 3, 2018 5:57:27 GMT
But I really would like to play the "other" Ryder … the one lacking the reputation as the "big gosh darn hero" … leaving their sibling to do all the hero Pathfinder things, while they strike out to establish their own reputation in Andromeda. New friends, new LIs, maybe a ship that is not so sleek and fancy as the Tempest … more of a Firefly vibe. This works well and could help BW move away from a crew that got a lot of complaints. I think any new crew would get the same complaints from the exact same places.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 3, 2018 6:02:24 GMT
This works well and could help BW move away from a crew that got a lot of complaints. I think any new crew would get the same complaints from the exact same places. Plus complaints from the people who liked the old crew and wanted to continue with them.
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