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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2018 14:05:48 GMT
Even with a non-voiced protagonist, you would have to forfeit subtly within a range of a character to increase the personality range of that character elsewise you'd have an entire screen full of printed sentences you'd have to select from with each dialgoue. That would slow down gameplay as each option gets read and then the player decides what they want to say. Personally, I find voiced games as I enjoy a faster pace... more Action RPG than detailed RPG.
With Ryder, I think Bioware now knows that players prefer a wider range of personalities rather than being able to express subtle differences. I hope they don't go back to the ME1 system though where Shepard would utter the exact same line regardless of what cue was chosen on the dialogue wheel. People who love the just arbitrarily say the writing in ME1 was so superior to the writing in subsequent games forget that this was the reality... It was only in their own head at times that Shepard was being meaner or nicer to an NPC because a lot of the time it did not matter what you selected, Shepard would say exactly the same line in exactly the same tone of voice. That's not great writing... that's a cheap out on reusing game assets. At least Ryder would actually say something a little different and in a different tone of voice whenever you selected different options from the dialogue wheel. It may have all been variations on "nice," but at least the variations were actually uttered by the VA.
In ME1 the writing also sucked in that if you selected all the investigate options, you encountered lines that were essentially the same information given to you over and over again (just because some other players don't bother to select all investigate options). Players unwilling to investigate completely should not have had all the main information presented in each and every line. If Shepard didn't ask enough questions, he should have been "running" with less information than the Shepards who did ask all the questions and those Shepards should have been making some mistakes based on not having adequate info to go on. This repetitive information also disrupted the flow of many of the conversations in the game... making some of the lines clearly appear to out of sequence if the player just selected the options in the "wrong" order. ME:A clearly avoided this did this better than ME1.
Part of the benefit on unvoiced protagonist is tone/intent is added by the player. Similar to what you suggest was happening in ME1, though I see that as a strength when intended not a flaw. Like in the real world I control what I say/mean I don't control how people take it. And yeah compared to games of today there were a wide range of writing flaws in ME1. But it had some strengths as well. So, you can add "intent" in ME1 based on "nothing" but the cue because Shepard doesn't even change the tone of the phrase uttered... but you suddenly become incapable of similarly adding intent to whatever Ryder says despite the cue. That's ridiculous. If the intent is being adding by the player in his/her own mind, player's should be capable of doing that regardless of what cues appear on the screen. Rather than having one uttered phrase to choose from (as in ME1), they have 4 to cchoose from... and they can still add their own intent regardless. There is absolutely no advantage to how it was set up in ME1.
Non-voiced protagonists merely add a bunch of additional reading into the game and take away any expressiveness by the player character. In reality, the PC is then just "wooden." ... no personality is injected into the story at all.
I want my PC to visibly react to the situations they are in... not stand their like a stick as I read through a bunch of dialogue that, more often amounts to "yes, I'll do it" or "no, I won't" or amounts to asking questions to get more details. Ideally, Ryder should have had an expanded range... which could have been accomplished by adding 1 more slot to the conversation wheel (to accommodate positive emotional and negative emotional responses). Beyond that, they should have offered all 4 (now 5) dialogue options in a great number of conversations (instead of only offering 2 of the 4 much of the time. I find participating in a VA's "performance" of a character superior to run of the mill, read by line and imagine in your own head role play.
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Post by shriekalpha on Dec 19, 2018 21:56:19 GMT
I just can't see Bioware doing Mass Effect Andromeda 2 after they dropped the clearly planned Quarian Ark DLC. I think the best hope for a return of the Mass Effect franchise is a new game with a new protagonist in the Milky Way, perhaps taking place during the 2 years Shepard is dead between ME1 and ME2, and probably in the Terminus systems where we could see new species we were unable to interact with before because we mostly stayed in Council space during the trilogy. That would also open up the option of having an alien PC.
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Post by ahglock on Dec 19, 2018 23:52:04 GMT
I just can't see Bioware doing Mass Effect Andromeda 2 after they dropped the clearly planned Quarian Ark DLC. I think the best hope for a return of the Mass Effect franchise is a new game with a new protagonist in the Milky Way, perhaps taking place during the 2 years Shepard is dead between ME1 and ME2, and probably in the Terminus systems where we could see new species we were unable to interact with before because we mostly stayed in Council space during the trilogy. That would also open up the option of having an alien PC. I can and I kind of assumed they would, though people were talking about a tweet or redit exchange that I missed that maybe implied more in the MW so maybe I'm wrong. I think all the dropping of the quarrian arc DLC implies is that it will probably have a time jump of at least 1 year. I actually want MEA to continue, just with either a different protagonist or a big enough time jump where he's mature and not reminding me of how I gamed when I was 12.
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Post by shift on Dec 20, 2018 0:37:04 GMT
I think in order to win back enough appeal for the franchise, Bioware will definitely need to return to the familiarity of the Milky Way for the new game. A part of me thinks they will revive Shephard too just for the hype it will generate but I'm thinking a new protagonist is a good shout. It would be nice to get an actual conclusion as to what happened at the end of ME3. Still, I'm hoping they do continue MEA in the future as there's packs of potential there and I personally thought it was excellent in a lot of ways.
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Post by shriekalpha on Dec 20, 2018 4:44:56 GMT
I just can't see Bioware doing Mass Effect Andromeda 2 after they dropped the clearly planned Quarian Ark DLC. I think the best hope for a return of the Mass Effect franchise is a new game with a new protagonist in the Milky Way, perhaps taking place during the 2 years Shepard is dead between ME1 and ME2, and probably in the Terminus systems where we could see new species we were unable to interact with before because we mostly stayed in Council space during the trilogy. That would also open up the option of having an alien PC. I can and I kind of assumed they would, though people were talking about a tweet or redit exchange that I missed that maybe implied more in the MW so maybe I'm wrong. I think all the dropping of the quarrian arc DLC implies is that it will probably have a time jump of at least 1 year. I actually want MEA to continue, just with either a different protagonist or a big enough time jump where he's mature and not reminding me of how I gamed when I was 12. I wouldn't be against MEA2, so long as we get new companions, I wasn't very fond of the ones we got. When I say I can't see them doing it, I'm not saying I don't want it, I'm saying the chances of its return don't look good given that Bioware had already planned DLC for the game, planted giant hints toward the DLC, and then dropped because of the backlash the game received, it just doesn't seem likely that they would refuse to make DLC, but then continue to make a sequel.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2018 12:54:43 GMT
I think in order to win back enough appeal for the franchise, Bioware will definitely need to return to the familiarity of the Milky Way for the new game. A part of me thinks they will revive Shephard too just for the hype it will generate but I'm thinking a new protagonist is a good shout. It would be nice to get an actual conclusion as to what happened at the end of ME3. Still, I'm hoping they do continue MEA in the future as there's packs of potential there and I personally thought it was excellent in a lot of ways. I think the people that have been stirring the pot in order to specifically get a redo of the ME3 endings would be dancing in the streets for all of ten minutes as they declare their victory and rub the noses in it of anyone who was in favor of preserving the full spectrum of endings to ME3 that we were given. That's how they behaved with people who petitioned Bioware to go forward with the Quarian ark DLC, so there's no reason to believe they would behave any differently.
Then the reality would sink in that ME3A would be a no better written game than any other future version of ME (be it ME:A2 or whatever) and that it would have to carry with it all those lore inconsistencies and story issues they've been identifying in the MET for the last 10 years. That we'd have to suffer through yet another resurrection of Jesus Shepard. That the essence of Cerberus would be nothing without TIM. That the Reapers being destroyed would result in a completely different antagonist anyways. That the geth conflict would be resolved one way or another so that story line would have to end... etc. etc. etc. If Bioware goes the "revive the Trilogy through a sequel route" - I'm predicting that people still won't be ultimately happy with the result.. The trend online is to pan anything tried by any major gaming dev and I see no reason for the fans to behave any differently towards the next ME (regardless of where it takes place and whatever protag is in it)... If it's not Shepard, those who want Shepard and nothing but will complain. If it's not alien, then those who want to play as aliens will complain. If it's not a badass jerk, then those who want a badass jerk will complain. If it's too young, they'll complain. If it's too old, they'll complain. If they put canon on an vehicle, that will be too OP. If they don't, then they'll complain... But, of course, we'll just have to wait to see. Good news is Bioware obviously still plans to do something with the franchise. I admire their fortitude in not just giving up entirely. You couldn't pay me enough to be a game dev in this day and age.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Dec 20, 2018 18:47:31 GMT
I still don't care.
Speaking of consistency, how about bringing back all the powers that existed from the beginning, or at least their evolution by ME3?
Changing engines is no excuse to ditch those things, they are as much Mass Effect as the races and guns.
Also, the guns. No Claymore, simply makes no sense in any world. Dumb.
So, give my Ryder Shepard the 3rd, Esq. I don't care, give me a Claymore and let me Reave things. With a Drell teammate. With an Elcor and Hanar Battle Orchestra. With Quarians of every gender imaginable shaking their bum bums.
I suppose that is pointless though :/
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Post by ahglock on Dec 20, 2018 19:51:23 GMT
Ah the claymore, how I miss thee.
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Post by 10k on Dec 28, 2018 3:31:00 GMT
Either the return of Shepard, or the return to the milky way. Either one would do just fine, but both would be epic.
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Post by wright1978 on Dec 29, 2018 15:21:30 GMT
As much as i love Shep i don't really want him back as i doubt they'd represent my shep well and it would require setting a canon ending to ME3.
Ryder flopped imo due to poor writing, so i don't really feel trying to revive him/her would work well.
A fresh character is probably the best approach
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Post by kotoreffect3 on Jan 31, 2019 22:22:47 GMT
If it is in Andromeda I would want a more seasoned Ryder maybe the twin this time around. In the Milky Way a new protagonist.
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Post by ahglock on Jan 31, 2019 22:41:16 GMT
I wouldn’t want the twin. I picked who I wanted to play. Getting the other one forced on me would irritate me.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Jan 31, 2019 23:02:11 GMT
Make the Ryder twins both active characters in MEA2 the Pathfinder is the one you play from the first game and the one you didn't play is the Governor of Meridian or Eos. The Pathfinder would be major character with the main plot and the Governor would be involved in a political/government conspiracy B plot that would end with both of them getting into a fight and severing their relationship forever or maybe one of them kills the other and the player chooses which Ryder lives and dies.
I could see a way that Commander Shepard could be brought back in MEA2 that would completely bypass the endings to ME3 and still be in continuity (for the most part). I also know some people here would absolutely hate it.
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Post by kotoreffect3 on Feb 1, 2019 2:18:53 GMT
Make the Ryder twins both active characters in MEA2 the Pathfinder is the one you play from the first game and the one you didn't play is the Governor of Meridian or Eos. The Pathfinder would be major character with the main plot and the Governor would be involved in a political/government conspiracy B plot that would end with both of them getting into a fight and severing their relationship forever or maybe one of them kills the other and the player chooses which Ryder lives and dies. I could see a way that Commander Shepard could be brought back in MEA2 that would completely bypass the endings to ME3 and still be in continuity (for the most part). I also know some people here would absolutely hate it. Now you've got me curious.
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 3, 2019 0:54:06 GMT
Other/New surpassed Ryder? That happened fairly quickly.
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Post by griffith82 on Feb 3, 2019 5:24:16 GMT
Make the Ryder twins both active characters in MEA2 the Pathfinder is the one you play from the first game and the one you didn't play is the Governor of Meridian or Eos. The Pathfinder would be major character with the main plot and the Governor would be involved in a political/government conspiracy B plot that would end with both of them getting into a fight and severing their relationship forever or maybe one of them kills the other and the player chooses which Ryder lives and dies. I could see a way that Commander Shepard could be brought back in MEA2 that would completely bypass the endings to ME3 and still be in continuity (for the most part). I also know some people here would absolutely hate it. I definitely want Ryder preferably the twins. I want a MEA2. Anything else I'd be skeptical on.
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Post by opuspace on Feb 22, 2019 21:30:12 GMT
I'm going to pick continuing Ryder's story but with more expansion into personality options and reactions. As much as I miss Shepard and the Milky Way,as much as I'd love something, anything, like a prequel to avoid the ending mishap, I'm worried that Bioware would continue to railroad Shepard's personality and make them into something unrecognizable from what we started out with.
If we do a new protagonist, I can't help but see it as trading in one set of annoyances for another on top of a flip flopping impression where we have to get used to another new set of crew members and teammates with no guarantee that we're not going to end up in the same situation where the writing is still frustratingly limited.
With Ryder, we've an established character who can still grow and change into someone with more variety. Someone who can develop an angrier personality and is less likely to take as much nonsense without dishing it back now that experience has been gained. It's not the Milky Way, but maybe with more developed hub worlds, it'll feel less barren.
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 23, 2019 15:39:01 GMT
I'm going to pick continuing Ryder's story but with more expansion into personality options and reactions. As much as I miss Shepard and the Milky Way,as much as I'd love something, anything, like a prequel to avoid the ending mishap, I'm worried that Bioware would continue to railroad Shepard's personality and make them into something unrecognizable from what we started out with. It's very common when writers take a set story, finish it and then decide to add on more, either before or after. I've seen it in books and suspect the GoT prequel will be lacking in quality.
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Post by opuspace on Feb 23, 2019 23:48:13 GMT
I'm going to pick continuing Ryder's story but with more expansion into personality options and reactions. As much as I miss Shepard and the Milky Way,as much as I'd love something, anything, like a prequel to avoid the ending mishap, I'm worried that Bioware would continue to railroad Shepard's personality and make them into something unrecognizable from what we started out with. It's very common when writers take a set story, finish it and then decide to add on more, either before or after. I've seen it in books and suspect the GoT prequel will be lacking in quality. I'm curious as to what they could do more with Shepard. What would you like them to explore? My reasons for wanting a prequel with Shepard's past was that it'd expand on our character instead of seeing them as a blank slate, it'd give us "new" teammates and let us keep biotics instead of worrying about whether it's canon like the First Contact War would force us to question and it'd avoid altogether having to worry about keeping track of the entire trilogy's decisions.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Feb 25, 2019 0:32:30 GMT
Part of the benefit on unvoiced protagonist is tone/intent is added by the player. Similar to what you suggest was happening in ME1, though I see that as a strength when intended not a flaw. Like in the real world I control what I say/mean I don't control how people take it. And yeah compared to games of today there were a wide range of writing flaws in ME1. But it had some strengths as well. So, you can add "intent" in ME1 based on "nothing" but the cue because Shepard doesn't even change the tone of the phrase uttered... but you suddenly become incapable of similarly adding intent to whatever Ryder says despite the cue. That's ridiculous. If the intent is being adding by the player in his/her own mind, player's should be capable of doing that regardless of what cues appear on the screen. Rather than having one uttered phrase to choose from (as in ME1), they have 4 to cchoose from... and they can still add their own intent regardless. There is absolutely no advantage to how it was set up in ME1.
Non-voiced protagonists merely add a bunch of additional reading into the game and take away any expressiveness by the player character. In reality, the PC is then just "wooden." ... no personality is injected into the story at all.
I want my PC to visibly react to the situations they are in... not stand their like a stick as I read through a bunch of dialogue that, more often amounts to "yes, I'll do it" or "no, I won't" or amounts to asking questions to get more details. Ideally, Ryder should have had an expanded range... which could have been accomplished by adding 1 more slot to the conversation wheel (to accommodate positive emotional and negative emotional responses). Beyond that, they should have offered all 4 (now 5) dialogue options in a great number of conversations (instead of only offering 2 of the 4 much of the time. I find participating in a VA's "performance" of a character superior to run of the mill, read by line and imagine in your own head role play.
Ah yes the old silent vs voiced protagonist debate. I haven't heard this one for a while.
For me it's simple: Lets use the original PS1 version of Final Fantasy VII that is where the silent protagonist, Cloud, worked the best because everybody was silent. So I don't have a problem with it.
In a games like Fallout 3, Kingdoms of Amular: The Reckoning or DA:O where ONLY the player character is silent it doesn't work for me it's at best weird and at worst takes me out of the story. I don't enjoy playing a character who everyone says has a voice but I can't hear their voice. Now if you make the make the character mute in-game (like the PC is born that way, like the villain damaged the PC's vocal cords, or they did something like in Disney's version of The Little Mermaid) where the voice NPCs refer to the character as a mute and the PC communicates in sign language, writing, telepathy, or some other way that would at least get to try the game and suspend my disbelief a lot easier than a character who I can't hear but everyone else can.
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Post by Phantom on Feb 25, 2019 2:12:33 GMT
a Part of me wants to do a new thread that has several new Player Characters ranging from a Cerberus Phantom Commander that rebuilds and reforms Cerberus and understand why s/he joined Cerberus and their actions during the Cerberus/Collector and rebuild Cerberus from the suriving Cerberus Leadership from Indoctrinated Reaper Sleeper Agents from all factions to a Volus Infiltrator that looking into fraud that is tied to a Reaper Conspiracy that strives to weaken the Citadel Economy. A Weaken Galatic Economy means less funds going to their respective Miltaries while managing a healthy economies for their respective species. In short having a Weak Galatic Economy will be bad for everyone. Also Turian Havoc Soldier with his crew find several key locations that involve parts of an old forgotten Reaper Killer Weapon. C-Sec Officer on a tracks of a Serial Killer that is a sleeper agent of the Reapers that is commanded by the Reapers to target important Political, Religious, and Economic Leaders on Citadel Station.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 25, 2019 12:42:45 GMT
I'm curious as to what they could do more with Shepard. Here's one way they could do more with Shepard.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2019 13:09:47 GMT
So, you can add "intent" in ME1 based on "nothing" but the cue because Shepard doesn't even change the tone of the phrase uttered... but you suddenly become incapable of similarly adding intent to whatever Ryder says despite the cue. That's ridiculous. If the intent is being adding by the player in his/her own mind, player's should be capable of doing that regardless of what cues appear on the screen. Rather than having one uttered phrase to choose from (as in ME1), they have 4 to cchoose from... and they can still add their own intent regardless. There is absolutely no advantage to how it was set up in ME1.
Non-voiced protagonists merely add a bunch of additional reading into the game and take away any expressiveness by the player character. In reality, the PC is then just "wooden." ... no personality is injected into the story at all.
I want my PC to visibly react to the situations they are in... not stand their like a stick as I read through a bunch of dialogue that, more often amounts to "yes, I'll do it" or "no, I won't" or amounts to asking questions to get more details. Ideally, Ryder should have had an expanded range... which could have been accomplished by adding 1 more slot to the conversation wheel (to accommodate positive emotional and negative emotional responses). Beyond that, they should have offered all 4 (now 5) dialogue options in a great number of conversations (instead of only offering 2 of the 4 much of the time. I find participating in a VA's "performance" of a character superior to run of the mill, read by line and imagine in your own head role play.
Ah yes the old silent vs voiced protagonist debate. I haven't heard this one for a while.
For me it's simple: Lets use the original PS1 version of Final Fantasy VII that is where the silent protagonist, Cloud, worked the best because everybody was silent. So I don't have a problem with it.
In a games like Fallout 3, Kingdoms of Amular: The Reckoning or DA:O where ONLY the player character is silent it doesn't work for me it's at best weird and at worst takes me out of the story. I don't enjoy playing a character who everyone says has a voice but I can't hear their voice. Now if you make the make the character mute in-game (like the PC is born that way, like the villain damaged the PC's vocal cords, or they did something like in Disney's version of The Little Mermaid) where the voice NPCs refer to the character as a mute and the PC communicates in sign language, writing, telepathy, or some other way that would at least get to try the game and suspend my disbelief a lot easier than a character who I can't hear but everyone else can.
I agree. In addition to that, though, all that reading just drags the game down to a crawl.
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Post by Zemgus on Feb 25, 2019 16:09:11 GMT
It can't be Shepard because he's dead.
It can't be Ryder because she is the worst player character in Bioware's history and hated by almost everyone who played the game.
New PC is the only way.
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Post by malanek on Feb 25, 2019 20:25:09 GMT
New protagonist. I liked the way Divinity 2 did it. Write 6 fully voiced characters, player picks one to play, the rest become potential squad mates.
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