dirtydiscolux
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Post by dirtydiscolux on Mar 4, 2019 0:01:26 GMT
But tons of people hate Solas, really really hate him. (I think he's a great character so I find that hatred so weird lol) You can think Solas is a great, well written character and still hate him. Crap, sorry, forgot to note the date on the post I replied to.
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Post by duskwanderer on Mar 4, 2019 4:13:52 GMT
Solas is fascinating, but in truth, he's just incredibly pretentious. I think that's what made him fascinating, he was completely believable: Dressing up his ideals and hiding behind a calm facade, when he's really just an elven supremacist.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 4, 2019 4:20:00 GMT
Solas is fascinating, but in truth, he's just incredibly pretentious. I think that's what made him fascinating, he was completely believable: Dressing up his ideals and hiding behind a calm facade, when he's really just an elven supremacist. to be fair humans likely weren't civilized, there were no Qunari, and Dwarves were probably their arch enemy.
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Post by Lazarillo on Mar 4, 2019 4:24:47 GMT
You can think Solas is a great, well written character and still hate him. Terrible person, wonderful character. It's a characteristic of a lot of really great villains. Honestly, my only fault with Solas as a character is that he feels so much like rehash. But my despising him only reinforces his potential (or, what would've been his potential, if he'd been the villain in the game where I had a "personal" stake in defeating him...I'm less convinced he could pull it off in a hypothetical DA4).
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dirtydiscolux
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Post by dirtydiscolux on Mar 4, 2019 4:47:12 GMT
You can think Solas is a great, well written character and still hate him. Terrible person, wonderful character. It's a characteristic of a lot of really great villains. Honestly, my only fault with Solas as a character is that he feels so much like rehash. But my despising him only reinforces his potential (or, what would've been his potential, if he'd been the villain in the game where I had a "personal" stake in defeating him...I'm less convinced he could pull it off in a hypothetical DA4). I think Solas is well written, I just have no interest or care about him at all. In Trespasser when it came to the redeem/stop at all costs choice in the keep, I literally flipped a coin because I just don't care. It's weird that I'm indifferent to Solas but Loghain made my blood boil.
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Post by Walter Black on Mar 4, 2019 22:04:44 GMT
Terrible person, wonderful character. It's a characteristic of a lot of really great villains. Honestly, my only fault with Solas as a character is that he feels so much like rehash. But my despising him only reinforces his potential (or, what would've been his potential, if he'd been the villain in the game where I had a "personal" stake in defeating him...I'm less convinced he could pull it off in a hypothetical DA4). I think Solas is well written, I just have no interest or care about him at all. In Trespasser when it came to the redeem/stop at all costs choice in the keep, I literally flipped a coin because I just don't care. It's weird that I'm indifferent to Solas but Loghain made my blood boil. Maybe it's a first imprtessions thing? I've seen many people whose decision to redeem or kill Loghain and/or Solas were colored by how the games presented them for most of the story, and I think that was very likely the writers' intent.
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dirtydiscolux
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Post by dirtydiscolux on Mar 4, 2019 22:27:40 GMT
I think Solas is well written, I just have no interest or care about him at all. In Trespasser when it came to the redeem/stop at all costs choice in the keep, I literally flipped a coin because I just don't care. It's weird that I'm indifferent to Solas but Loghain made my blood boil. Maybe it's a first imprtessions thing? I've seen many people whose decision to redeem or kill Loghain and/or Solas were colored by how the games presented them for most of the story, and I think that was very likely the writers' intent. I have no idea. That could be. Loghain still gets my back up when I replay DAO, no matter the character I'm roleplaying. But Solas? My only interest in Solas is stopping him, but I could not care less about his character or what happens to him at all in DA4. He's just kind of there painting or whatnot for the entire game. Sometimes I do his personal mission, most times I don't bother. I do everyone else's though, even Viv. That being said, If I kill him in DA4 I'd like for him to actually stay dead, but if not, it's their story so I'll just have to get over it.
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legbamel
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Walkin' shoes walkin' back into BSN.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by legbamel on Mar 8, 2019 19:48:08 GMT
I figure Solas has no real idea of what will happen if he succeeds. One can posit that "releasing" spirits and magic from the Fade will result in mass chaos and death but must it?
Solas has a pessimistic streak, which is either borne out by or fostered by his experience. His plans all seem to go awry in big, ugly ways (perhaps because they're big, ugly plans). Raising the Veil had awful consequences and he was too weak to stick around and help mitigate them. Cory screwed up unlocking the orb with the Inquisitor's help, and the power Solas wanted to destroy the Veil in one fell swoop instead ripped it hither and yon in uncontrolled ways.
(Am I leaning on head canon or did he try to Foster a slave rebellion that went sideways, as well?)
Who can blame him for thinking that his next plan is going to have horrific consequences? So far, all of them have. That doesn't mean his apocalyptic vision is the only possible outcome. I agree that there will be mass upheaval and demonic possession, because people suck and they'll try to take advantage or succumb out of fear. Bit the world bursting into flame and people dropping dead in the street the moment the Veil comes down seems like a wild dramatization.
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Post by witchcocktor on Mar 8, 2019 19:55:13 GMT
I figure Solas has no real idea of what will happen if he succeeds. One can posit that "releasing" spirits and magic from the Fade will result in mass chaos and death but must it? Solas has a pessimistic streak, which is either borne out by or fostered by his experience. His plans all seem to go awry in big, ugly ways (perhaps because they're big, ugly plans). Raising the Veil had awful consequences and he was too weak to stick around and help mitigate them. Cory screwed up unlocking the orb with the Inquisitor's help, and the power Solas wanted to destroy the Veil in one fell swoop instead ripped it hither and yon in uncontrolled ways. (Am I leaning on head canon or did he try to Foster a slave rebellion that went sideways, as well?) Who can blame him for thinking that his next plan is going to have horrific consequences? So far, all of them have. That doesn't mean his apocalyptic vision is the only possible outcome. I agree that there will be mass upheaval and demonic possession, because people suck and they'll try to take advantage or succumb out of fear. Bit the world bursting into flame and people dropping dead in the street the moment the Veil comes down seems like a wild dramatization. While I agree with you a lot, I don't think the Veil coming down will bring anything GOOD, and I'm pretty sure it'll be bad, but maybe not as apocalyptic and end-of-the-worldish as Solas is making it seem. But, as he is, Solas is still ready to destroy the world (even if he doesn't want to) in order to reach his '' goal '' so, you know, OFF WITH HIS HEAD
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Post by Lazarillo on Mar 8, 2019 22:08:15 GMT
Solas is still ready to destroy the world (even if he doesn't want to) Why do people say this? If he didn't want to destroy the world, he wouldn't be planning to destroy the world.
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Post by witchcocktor on Mar 8, 2019 22:13:12 GMT
Solas is still ready to destroy the world (even if he doesn't want to) Why do people say this? If he didn't want to destroy the world, he wouldn't be planning to destroy the world. His goal isn't to cause harm to this world, but he will cause harm to this world if it means that he achieves his goal.
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Post by Lazarillo on Mar 8, 2019 22:15:48 GMT
His goal isn't to cause harm to this world, but he will cause harm to this world if it means that he achieves his goal. And? He wants that goal in spite of the harm done, which means he wants the harm done.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Mar 8, 2019 22:49:14 GMT
His goal isn't to cause harm to this world, but he will cause harm to this world if it means that he achieves his goal. And? He wants that goal in spite of the harm done, which means he wants the harm done. No, it doesn't. If he could accomplish the goal without causing the harm, he'd do it. Thus the harm is incidental to his goal, not the focus of it.
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Post by Lazarillo on Mar 8, 2019 23:05:12 GMT
No, it doesn't. If he could accomplish the goal without causing the harm, he'd do it. Thus the harm is incidental to his goal, not the focus of it. Doesn't matter what the focus is. If he didn't want to cause harm, he'd find a way to do it without causing harm. But he doesn't like the world as it is, so he's going to destroy it. That's all.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Mar 8, 2019 23:06:20 GMT
Dressing up his ideals and hiding behind a calm facade, when he's really just an elven supremacist. I don't think this is accurate. (Or really jives with his "You showed me I was wrong. You are people." acknowledgment to a friended Inquisitor.)
I mean, if he was an (ancient) elven supremacist, why would he give a damn about keeping southern Thedas free from the Qun? He could have let the Qunari blow up the exalted council and it'd be no skin off his nose. Or why does he show caring for Bull, Cassandra, Varric, and Dorian? None of them are elvhen.
Velanna is an elven supremacist. Solas is not. He's not "restoring the world of the elves" cus the elvhen were better than everyone. He's doing it cus he thinks things as they are are broken and that he's responsible for breaking it.
And, in the sense of how the world is "supposed" to be, he's not wrong. The fade's natural state is to be mingled with the physical world, and the current divide is both man-made and precarious.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 8, 2019 23:10:05 GMT
Dressing up his ideals and hiding behind a calm facade, when he's really just an elven supremacist. I don't think this is accurate. (Or really jives with his "You showed me I was wrong. You are people." acknowledgment to a friended Inquisitor.)
I mean, if he was an (ancient) elven supremacist, why would he give a damn about keeping southern Thedas free from the Qun? He could have let the Qunari blow up the exalted council and it'd be no skin off his nose. Or why does he show caring for Bull, Cassandra, Varric, and Dorian? None of them are elvhen.
Velanna is an elven supremacist. Solas is not. He's not "restoring the world of the elves" cus the elvhen were better than everyone. He's doing it cus he thinks things a they are are broken and that he's responsible for breaking it.
And, in the sense of how the world is "supposed" to be, he's not wrong. The fade's natural state is to be mingled with the physical world, and the current divide is both man-made and precarious.
not to mention had Dragons breath succeeded it probably would've helped him out.
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Post by Lazarillo on Mar 8, 2019 23:11:14 GMT
"You showed me I was wrong. You are people." To a friend Inquisitor: "Are you sure you weren't changed by the mark because all your race is [insert negative stereotype here]?" Because he's petty, among other things, and hates the Qun, even though he's worse than they are (the Qun say you can choose to serve, or "choose to die, but you have a choice", while Solas says "screw you, Fade's more important, so you can die and you have no choice"). Plus, a Thedas united under the Qun could be a great threat to him... And they're broken because they're not better than everyone right now. Where does "he wants to murder them and destroy everything the hold dear" show caring?
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Mar 8, 2019 23:18:39 GMT
Doesn't matter what the focus is. If he didn't want to cause harm, he'd find a way to do it without causing harm. The focus does matter for the purposes of your statement: "He wants that goal in spite of the harm done, which means he wants the harm done." You're sentence states the harm is the object of his desire, which is inaccurate. If the goal could be done without the harm, he'd do so. Hence the harm itself is not his aim.
His willingness to accept the destruction of the current people/world as some kind of unavoidable collateral damage is bad enough. I don't think we need to hyperbolize his motives in to sadism, too.
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Post by Lazarillo on Mar 8, 2019 23:21:08 GMT
His willingness to accept the destruction of the current people/world as some kind of unavoidable collateral damage is bad enough. I don't think we need to hyperbolize his motives in to sadism, too. It doesn't have to be sadism, but it doesn't change what he wants. Solas could, at any time, choose not to destroy the world, but he doesn't want to do that. He wants the option that destroys the world. Therefore, he wants to destroy the world. The context is immaterial. He's a proponent of murder and genocide, first and foremost.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Mar 8, 2019 23:52:02 GMT
"You showed me I was wrong. You are people." To a friend Inquisitor: "Are you sure you weren't changed by the mark because all your race is [insert negative stereotype here]?" Oh, right. He believed stereotypes about people. Well, off with his head, then. And let's ignore that he changes his mind later on and develops mutual respect with you and/or other companions of various races by the end of the story. I mean, if he was an (ancient) elven supremacist, why would he give a damn about keeping southern Thedas free from the Qun? He could have let the Qunari blow up the exalted council and it'd be no skin off his nose. Because he's petty, among other things, and hates the Qun, even though he's worse than they are (the Qun say you can choose to serve, or "choose to die, but you have a choice", while Solas says "screw you, Fade's more important, so you can die and you have no choice"). Plus, a Thedas united under the Qun could be a great threat to him... But, why does he hate the Qun? B/c of what they do to people, all people, that are currently under their dominion. None of those people are ancient elves. If he's an elven supremacist, he wouldn't give a damn. You don't see the Venatori bemoaning the plight of southern mages under the circle system. They were more than content to just exploit them instead. Why? Cus they weren't Vints, so the Tevinter supremacists didn't give a flip about them. That's part and parcel of being an identity-driven collectivist. You don't care about the well being of those you consider to be outside your collective. Solas is not. He's not "restoring the world of the elves" cus the elvhen were better than everyone. He's doing it cus he thinks things a they are are broken and that he's responsible for breaking it. And they're broken because they're not better than everyone right now. For clarity, how are you defining "better" in this sentence? Or why does he show caring for Bull, Cassandra, Varric, and Dorian? Where does "he wants to murder them and destroy everything the hold dear" show caring? The caring was on a personal level. He talks Bull through a game of mental chess to demonstrate to him that his mind is just as sharp and coherent as it was when he was in the Qun and he's therefore not going to just suddenly go rabid now that he's vashoth. He obviously gets along with Varric. He expresses admiration and respect for Cassandra. He seeks out common ground and comradarie with Blackwall before the Ranier reveal. There's plenty of evidence he cares about the people around him who are definitively not ancient elves, Bull being the clearest example. As for the "he wants to murder them and destroy everything the hold dear", maybe your premise is false and he doesn't want to murder anyone? That's an undesired side effect of something he currently feels he has no choice but to go through with. Because, if he doesn't do it, then he's failing his people all over again. His dialogue with Flemythal at the end of the main game makes it pretty obvious that this is the case, imo.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Mar 9, 2019 0:03:07 GMT
His willingness to accept the destruction of the current people/world as some kind of unavoidable collateral damage is bad enough. I don't think we need to hyperbolize his motives in to sadism, too. It doesn't have to be sadism, but it doesn't change what he wants. Solas could, at any time, choose not to destroy the world, but he doesn't want to do that. He wants the option that destroys the world. Therefore, he wants to destroy the world. The context is immaterial. He's a proponent of murder and genocide, first and foremost. I agree he's willing to commit the genocide. That's what makes his plan bad. And context is immaterial to whether the action is objectively evil or not.
But you were making a statement about what he wants. And context is completely material when determining motivation.
If he could achieve his goal without killing everyone, he would. Which is mutually exclusive with his desire being to cause harm. You said you didn't understand how people can say he doesn't want to cause harm; its cus if he could do what he feels he has to do without hurting anyone, we have every reason to think he would do so. To do otherwise would be sadism. And he's not a sadist.
Is he wrong? Yes, I think so. Does he want to hurt people? No.
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Post by Lazarillo on Mar 9, 2019 1:20:19 GMT
If he could achieve his goal without killing everyone, he would. Which is mutually exclusive with his desire being to cause harm. Solas has a choice: commit genocide, or don't commit genocide. Whether it's for the sake of another goal or not doesn't matter. The moment he choose not to take the "don't commit genocide" route, then that means what he wants is genocide. Because if he didn't, he could choose not to.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Mar 11, 2019 12:58:20 GMT
Solas is fascinating, but in truth, he's just incredibly pretentious. I think that's what made him fascinating, he was completely believable: Dressing up his ideals and hiding behind a calm facade, when he's really just an elven supremacist. to be fair humans likely weren't civilized, there were no Qunari, and Dwarves were probably their arch enemy. 'To be fair', none of that is an excuse for racism. Lol wtf.
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Post by Iddy on Mar 11, 2019 15:52:30 GMT
Solas is fascinating, but in truth, he's just incredibly pretentious. I think that's what made him fascinating, he was completely believable: Dressing up his ideals and hiding behind a calm facade, when he's really just an elven supremacist. I wonder how much do the elves following Solas actually know. Are they aware that only ancient elves have a place in the world he wants to create?
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: ShinobiKillfist
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Post by ahglock on Mar 11, 2019 16:47:27 GMT
If he could achieve his goal without killing everyone, he would. Which is mutually exclusive with his desire being to cause harm. Solas has a choice: commit genocide, or don't commit genocide. Whether it's for the sake of another goal or not doesn't matter. The moment he choose not to take the "don't commit genocide" route, then that means what he wants is genocide. Because if he didn't, he could choose not to. Yeah. This isn’t a case where a decision is forced on him. Like a ticking bomb. Do you leave it in your room and kill 100 or throw it over there and kill 5. It’s a active choice to commit genocide as a side effect of his overall goal.
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