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Post by sageoflife on Oct 27, 2016 0:08:10 GMT
Actually, Cole confirmed that what happened to the original Cole was not unusual for the White Spire. Remember, Cole has never been to any other Circles, so there is no reason to think that he was talking about others when he discussed the matter with Cassandra.
HumanCole: There were beatings. Worse than beatings. "If you tell anyone I'll say you used blood magic." SpiritCole: Yes. Beatings, worse. "Do you remember telling me no? You can't do that now. The tranquil don't say no to anything."
Cole acknowledges that this was not all, or even most Templars, but that's really beside the point. Abusive Templars clearly had a greatly disproportionate amount of power and were not being punished.
There is also the matter of the Ostwick Circle which, according to some of the dialogue options available to MageTrevelyan, had some issues of its own with Templars abusing their power.
There is also a disturbing exchange that can be overheard between two priests if the player allies with the mages. The priest in question doesn't recognize Trevelyan, ruling out Ostwick, the lack of an Orlesian accent rules out the White Spire, and the fact that she's alive at all rules out Kirkwall, so that's four Circles that had problems.
"I did not see good Templars and evil mages in that Circle; I saw prisoners and jailers. The prisoners learned fear, and their jailers cruelty...When I was in the Circle, the Templars kept the mages in line with threats of death and tranquility. They hid the beatings from me, but I saw the bruises...and worse. Andraste said that magic should serve man. It never said that mages must live in fear."
Furthermore, as per the codex, the fact that a hardass like Greagoir is considered overly permissive toward his charges paints a very bad picture of the other Knight-Commanders.
There's also the issue of the Antiva City Circle, the third Circle to be subjected to the Right of Annulment. We learn in Inquisition that the real reason it was annulled was to cover up the fact that the resident Knight-Captain was a bigoted serial killer, a cover-up that the Seekers actively helped the Templars with. The fact that it took all of twenty-five years for the Templars to grossly abuse their right to kill every mage in their local Circle doesn't exactly speak well of their ability to be trusted with life-or-death power over the people they're keeping imprisoned.
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Post by phoray on Oct 29, 2016 1:46:52 GMT
My love/hate relationship with Anders is bumming out his love thread. So, here is me being mentally mean to Anders through angsty angry sad pictures I find on the internets. although, when googling for "Anders Sad" I got some pictures about Karl and that just hurts my heart. No matter how angry I am at Anders, mocking that pain would just be crossing a line. Edit Add: oh nuuuu... now I AM sad, cuz I did this. in my game with my Atonement Hawke.. My poor heart, how do you do this to me Anders. I'm going to go drown myself in Fenris and Merril and Isabella you meanie face!
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Post by Catilina on Oct 29, 2016 12:26:08 GMT
My love/hate relationship with Anders is bumming out his love thread.So, here is me being mentally mean to Anders through angsty angry sad pictures I find on the internets. although, when googling for "Anders Sad" I got some pictures about Karl and that just hurts my heart. No matter how angry I am at Anders, mocking that pain would just be crossing a line. Edit Add: oh nuuuu... now I AM sad, cuz I did this. in my game with my Atonement Hawke.. My poor heart, how do you do this to me Anders. I'm going to go drown myself in Fenris and Merril and Isabella you meanie face! Don't worry, I think, there is plenty fit in the romance topic!
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Post by vixsyn on Oct 29, 2016 13:13:46 GMT
Circles are a bit like far left political ideologies - done perfectly, everyone can benefit, there's peace, a meaning to every life and no lack of resources. Done badly, there's slavery, murder, corruption, greed, abuse and poverty.
Good examples of the circles producing the ideal are mages like Wynne and Vivienne, who are free to travel and work outside of their circles, have been well trained and have great potential to be beneficial to society. The counter point is somewhere like the White Spire, the story of Cole, the abuse of power by the templars and seekers. Saying that, every time a mage responds to oppression with demonic possession and/or blood magic, they harm any argument for their freedom.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 29, 2016 13:22:52 GMT
Circles are a bit like far left political ideologies - done perfectly, everyone can benefit, there's peace, a meaning to every life and no lack of resources. Done badly, there's slavery, murder, corruption, greed, abuse and poverty. Good examples of the circles producing the ideal are mages like Wynne and Vivienne, who are free to travel and work outside of their circles, have been well trained and have great potential to be beneficial to society. The counter point is somewhere like the White Spire, the story of Cole, the abuse of power by the templars and seekers. Saying that, every time a mage responds to oppression with demonic possession and/or blood magic, they harm any argument for their freedom. No, they are not good for anyone. Wynne? Damaged. She is strong, but still have some kind Stockholm syndrome. Vivienne? Damaged. She fear from herself. It is hard to believe, that someone who lives in such a place like a Circle Tower, since childhood, locked, able to remain totally sane. The Circle system are just cruel for anyone including the Templars as well, and toxic and dangerous. The Circle-system as a dictatorship (but worse, because they are completely closed, small space – without privacy, without a safe peaceful place): some people have unlimited power over others.
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Post by vixsyn on Oct 29, 2016 13:33:19 GMT
I never got the impression Wynne was damaged - not in a sense literally forced upon her by the circle, aside from how it may have influenced her role as a mother. Same with Vivienne really. It's not a terrible thing for mages to have some fear of their own abilities; they ARE powerful, and they ARE susceptible to manipulation from the inhabitants of the fade. Mastering their fears and learning to protect themselves are important parts of a mages development, surely?
Circles are certainly not ideal solutions to the potential dangers mages might represent towards themselves and others. Community management would be an option, care-in-the-community support templars visiting mage families to check if anyone's struggling with possession at the moment! Better management of lyrium so that those haunted by demons can undergo the Connor ritual. Proper use of the rite of Tranquility and the reversal thereof. Voluntary circle schools for young mages with the potential option of staying on for advanced training with a view to becoming a teaching, apprentice training enchanter.
I didn't say they were good for anyone, I said they COULD be good and produce good mages. That's far from thinking they're the best thing since invading the golden city.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 29, 2016 13:50:17 GMT
I never got the impression Wynne was damaged - not in a sense literally forced upon her by the circle, aside from how it may have influenced her role as a mother. Same with Vivienne really. It's not a terrible thing for mages to have some fear of their own abilities; they ARE powerful, and they ARE susceptible to manipulation from the inhabitants of the fade. Mastering their fears and learning to protect themselves are important parts of a mages development, surely? Circles are certainly not ideal solutions to the potential dangers mages might represent towards themselves and others. Community management would be an option, care-in-the-community support templars visiting mage families to check if anyone's struggling with possession at the moment! Better management of lyrium so that those haunted by demons can undergo the Connor ritual. Proper use of the rite of Tranquility and the reversal thereof. Voluntary circle schools for young mages with the potential option of staying on for advanced training with a view to becoming a teaching, apprentice training enchanter. I didn't say they were good for anyone, I said they COULD be good and produce good mages. That's far from thinking they're the best thing since invading the golden city. Do you think it's possible for someone live since childhood in a prison, constantly intimidated and stay sane? Hardly. This is why the circles are dangerous. And because the parents don't ant to send their mage children into the Circles to learn to train. Or, just abandon their mage children, because of shame. The Circles need to be schools, libraries, and a safe places, where the mages can exchange ideas with each others. For safety need effective police (seekers/templars, ofc without lyrium addicting, and working together with mages), and registration (this is exist: the Chantry blood magic – phylactery system). The prison-Circles are totally wrong, there is no excuse for their existence.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 29, 2016 14:43:07 GMT
I never got the impression Wynne was damaged - not in a sense literally forced upon her by the circle, aside from how it may have influenced her role as a mother. Same with Vivienne really. It's not a terrible thing for mages to have some fear of their own abilities; they ARE powerful, and they ARE susceptible to manipulation from the inhabitants of the fade. Mastering their fears and learning to protect themselves are important parts of a mages development, surely? Circles are certainly not ideal solutions to the potential dangers mages might represent towards themselves and others. Community management would be an option, care-in-the-community support templars visiting mage families to check if anyone's struggling with possession at the moment! Better management of lyrium so that those haunted by demons can undergo the Connor ritual. Proper use of the rite of Tranquility and the reversal thereof. Voluntary circle schools for young mages with the potential option of staying on for advanced training with a view to becoming a teaching, apprentice training enchanter. I didn't say they were good for anyone, I said they COULD be good and produce good mages. That's far from thinking they're the best thing since invading the golden city. The circles could be mage learning schools for good where the mages learn for a time and then leave and get on with their lives and it is a shame they aren't. So much waste and pain.
Wynne not sure if she was damaged, but she spent alot of time thinking of ways to leave the circle. Sure, it was to offer her help but still she sought to leave it when she could. She played by the rules in order to do that. And being forced to give up Rhys simply because as a mage she was thought to be dangerous is awful. Even with her spirit she always tried to be do the right thing and follow the rules and still the Chantry thought it best to lock her up and separate her from her child.
Vivienne, she's a real peach. In her introduction she used her power to strangle the man a bit and the option to kill him was one of her first thoughts. Not sure again if that is her nature or is it because she is a mage. I lean towards it is her nature or personality.
Yes, her personality, spiced with some damaged psyche. Blame the Chantry. (By the way, Vivienne kill this man, if the Inquisitor let her kill him? I'm curious, I never tried...)
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Post by Catilina on Oct 29, 2016 15:02:46 GMT
Yes, her personality, spiced with some damaged psyche. Blame the Chantry. (By the way, Vivienne kill this man, if the Inquisitor let her kill him? I'm curious, I never tried...) Haven't let Vivienne kill him either. Just watched it on youtube. Yikes, can't do that! Wonder if Vivienne changes later on and feels guilt for killing him? She really killed him, now I saw the video, ty. I can't imagine, that Vivienne feels guilty for anything. She seems sociopath. Great possible Divine... brr! (How anyone can respect/ LOVE her?)
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Post by Catilina on Oct 29, 2016 15:18:43 GMT
She really killed him, now I saw the video, ty. I can't imagine, that Vivienne feels guilty for anything. She seems sociopath. Great possible Divine... brr! (How anyone can respect/ LOVE her?) LOL, I am not sure about her. I like her voice over.
During her personal quest she shows a softer side and believe she did love that man. But cold, yes she is.
Made Vivienne the Divine - but its more that I like Cassandra and don't want her to become the Divine rather than I think Vivienne would be a good divine. But then again is there such a thing? How much power does a divine have? Is Lelianna a better Divine? I don't know those answers.
I prefer Leliana, Cassandra also repair the Circle-system, she plan some changes AND: not a powerhungry sociopath... I have a world, where Cassandra became Divine, but Leliana is the best for the mages and elves.
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vixsyn
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 18 Likes: 6
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vixsyn
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Post by vixsyn on Oct 29, 2016 15:20:19 GMT
I've wondered what Vivienne would be like as divine... but in spite of the happenings of DA:I, the idea of a mage divine is still quite a bizarre concept. That's a pretty massive social shift in under a couple of decades.
We've gone a bit off on a tangent haven't we! So, Anders... he's a bit nutty isn't he.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 29, 2016 15:28:03 GMT
I've wondered what Vivienne would be like as divine... but in spite of the happenings of DA:I, the idea of a mage divine is still quite a bizarre concept. That's a pretty massive social shift in under a couple of decades. We've gone a bit off on a tangent haven't we! So, Anders... he's a bit nutty isn't he. As I see, sadly most Circle mages, who live in the Circle Tower since childhood are damaged. A mage Divine? Not bizarre, but if you think that a Circle mage dangerous, as for example Anders or Vivienne (or Orsino was), an experienced and trained "apostate", whose mind are clear, and dont ruined by the Circle would ideal as mage Divine. Of course Andrastian. (Hawke for example... ) But you're right, I'm not sure, that the people would be able to trust in a mage Divine... Anders not "nutty", he is damaged, yes, and have Justice/Vengeance in his head. This is not easy, but he is not an idiot. The writer spoke about split selfhood in his case (if I remember correctly). I'm not a psychiatrist, so, I not able to diagnose... but would not be surprising, he was in solitary confinement, and e know, he unable to bear the confinement.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 18 Likes: 6
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Post by vixsyn on Oct 29, 2016 16:45:43 GMT
We've gone a bit off on a tangent haven't we! So, Anders... he's a bit nutty isn't he. Anders not "nutty", he is damaged, yes, and have Justice/Vengeance in his head. This is not easy, but he is not an idiot. The writer spoke about split selfhood in his case. I'm not a psychiatrist, so, I not able to diagnose... but would not be surprising, he was in solitary confinement, and e know, he unable to bear the confinement. I was attempting to be "light hearted." You seem to think all of the prominent mages we've discussed are damaged. But what affects us due to confinement/"prison"/oppression is not necessarily going to be true of the natives of Thedas. The circles are a way of life and have been established for hundreds of years. The idea of being part of "normal" society is barely an option for most mages. If we really want to look at how their enforced imprisonment would affect them, then the majority would most likely become institutionalised and completely unable to function in the outside world, as they have not had any experience of it. Suddenly they're responsible for their own housing, food, heating, clothes - well, everything! This can happen to otherwise stable human beings in the real world in a matter of months of being detained (whether in a prison or otherwise, i.e. after a long stay in a hospital). If most circles are offering safety and security, meals, education, potentially further opportunities for study and, perhaps, travel, what is so terrible about them? Especially if your only experience of another sort of lifestyle is limited to a handful of years as a child. The discussion as to whether or not circles are, philosophically, a bad thing is a completely different argument. Is it wrong to imprison an entire section of society because they are "humanoid 2.0"? In an ideal scenario, yes, that would be very wrong. But they do have the advantage here. If mages were not confined to circles, if there were not laws to govern how they interacted with the rest of society, is it not possible that they might use their enhanced abilities to give themselves an edge over their fellow man (man to include dwarf, elf and Qunari, of course)? The history of Thedas shows that this can happen - look at Tevinter. Look at the way Fenris was treated. Is it right for a subsection of a society to enslave, misuse or overpower others in their society simply because they have some sort of enhanced power? The humanist side of the argument says no, whereas the evolutionary side of the argument says yes. Survival of the fittest, right? If mages are more powerful than other people, they should be the rulers of society. Again, in an ideal scenario this might not be a bad thing. They may govern fairly, abolish poverty, provide adequate food and housing for all of Thedas. They could use their superior abilities to create, if not a paradise, then at least a functional society. Sadly though, few scenarios are the ideal. As previously stated, Tevinter. So we're looking for a middle ground, perhaps, where mages are not confined to the circle but they are also able to reign in any desires they might have to rule over society thanks to their superior abilities. In this scenario, mages live along side every other person, work as others do, serve in the armies, become butchers and bakers and candlestick makers. They can use their magic to serve their fellow man and to scratch out an existence along side them as well. The thing is, how many people, whether Thedan (?) or otherwise, could just sit on their hands when those hands are capable of doing so much more than they currently are. If 50 mages haggle with the local stave merchant over a finely crafted ironbark staff, how many will choose to Jedi mind trick the price down (this is only an example and a bit of a joke, I am fully aware that Dragon Age mages don't wave their hands and ask about getting to Coruscant), and how many will agree to the haggled down 45 sovereigns, assuming they were capable of mind-tricking it down to say, 30 (they're looking for an advantage here, they're not criminal scum). How many of those fifty could watch a loved one die when they're a wrist slice or a demon away from being able to save them. This, in a round about way, brings me back to Anders. His feelings about the circle, whether he is damaged or not, stem not necessarily from the treatment he has received but perhaps rather form what he did not receive. As a child he says he ran away from the circle because he's homesick. He attempts to run away from the circle no less than seven times. Perhaps the circle is not nurturing enough, or there are no ears to receive his grief at being separated from his family, especially his mother, as they seem to have had a strong bond. Perhaps, like Aneirin, he just wasn't given the time and treatment he needed to help him settle. But no matter what went wrong early in his life, we get a picture of Anders from Awakening through to DA2 that could raise a lot of suspicions as to what his character is truly like. He claims his only companion in solitary confinement, a cat, gets possessed and kills three templars. When The Warden finds him at Vigils Keep he is surrounded by dead darkspawn and templars, and denies having killed the latter. Later, when he is witnessed joining with Justice and confronted by templars for being an abomination, he kills all of them. This and his later murders could be attributed to Justice, but he has been in a few situations that include dead templars and it does seem to be a rather running theme. If you suspect the best of him, he is not responsible for any of these deaths, if you consider Justice to be a separate entity who takes advantage of Anders' physcial form. On the other hand, it's perfectly possible that Anders has been murdering templars for years, sometimes without a cause that we're informed of. The way he deals with "freedom" is often with rage and violence, where he appears to be the embodiment of the worst kind of mage - immoral, unhindered by conscience, using his abilities to bring death and destruction to those who do not share his world view. Whilst he can seem a fairly normal, functional man, he hides the capacity for immense power, hatred and violence. Ironically, Anders, who wants freedom for all mages, embodies most of the things that people fear, and that have kept mages locked away in their circles for so long.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 29, 2016 16:52:35 GMT
Haven't let Vivienne kill him either. Just watched it on youtube. Yikes, can't do that! Wonder if Vivienne changes later on and feels guilt for killing him? She really killed him, now I saw the video, ty. I can't imagine, that Vivienne feels guilty for anything. She seems sociopath. Great possible Divine... brr! ( How anyone can respect/LOVE her?) Sorry, but the irony of this being asked by an Anders lover is hilarious. He does far worse than Vivienne ever does yet you love and respect him.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 18 Likes: 6
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Post by vixsyn on Oct 29, 2016 17:05:11 GMT
She really killed him, now I saw the video, ty. I can't imagine, that Vivienne feels guilty for anything. She seems sociopath. Great possible Divine... brr! ( How anyone can respect/LOVE her?) Sorry, but the irony of this being asked by an Anders lover is hilarious. He does far worse than Vivienne ever does yet you love and respect him. I do love irony.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 29, 2016 17:46:33 GMT
Anders not "nutty", he is damaged, yes, and have Justice/Vengeance in his head. This is not easy, but he is not an idiot. The writer spoke about split selfhood in his case. I'm not a psychiatrist, so, I not able to diagnose... but would not be surprising, he was in solitary confinement, and e know, he unable to bear the confinement. I was attempting to be "light hearted." You seem to think all of the prominent mages we've discussed are damaged. But what affects us due to confinement/"prison"/oppression is not necessarily going to be true of the natives of Thedas. The circles are a way of life and have been established for hundreds of years. The idea of being part of "normal" society is barely an option for most mages. If we really want to look at how their enforced imprisonment would affect them, then the majority would most likely become institutionalised and completely unable to function in the outside world, as they have not had any experience of it. Suddenly they're responsible for their own housing, food, heating, clothes - well, everything! This can happen to otherwise stable human beings in the real world in a matter of months of being detained (whether in a prison or otherwise, i.e. after a long stay in a hospital). If most circles are offering safety and security, meals, education, potentially further opportunities for study and, perhaps, travel, what is so terrible about them? Especially if your only experience of another sort of lifestyle is limited to a handful of years as a child. The discussion as to whether or not circles are, philosophically, a bad thing is a completely different argument. Is it wrong to imprison an entire section of society because they are "humanoid 2.0"? In an ideal scenario, yes, that would be very wrong. But they do have the advantage here. If mages were not confined to circles, if there were not laws to govern how they interacted with the rest of society, is it not possible that they might use their enhanced abilities to give themselves an edge over their fellow man (man to include dwarf, elf and Qunari, of course)? The history of Thedas shows that this can happen - look at Tevinter. Look at the way Fenris was treated. Is it right for a subsection of a society to enslave, misuse or overpower others in their society simply because they have some sort of enhanced power? The humanist side of the argument says no, whereas the evolutionary side of the argument says yes. Survival of the fittest, right? If mages are more powerful than other people, they should be the rulers of society. Again, in an ideal scenario this might not be a bad thing. They may govern fairly, abolish poverty, provide adequate food and housing for all of Thedas. They could use their superior abilities to create, if not a paradise, then at least a functional society. Sadly though, few scenarios are the ideal. As previously stated, Tevinter. So we're looking for a middle ground, perhaps, where mages are not confined to the circle but they are also able to reign in any desires they might have to rule over society thanks to their superior abilities. In this scenario, mages live along side every other person, work as others do, serve in the armies, become butchers and bakers and candlestick makers. They can use their magic to serve their fellow man and to scratch out an existence along side them as well. The thing is, how many people, whether Thedan (?) or otherwise, could just sit on their hands when those hands are capable of doing so much more than they currently are. If 50 mages haggle with the local stave merchant over a finely crafted ironbark staff, how many will choose to Jedi mind trick the price down (this is only an example and a bit of a joke, I am fully aware that Dragon Age mages don't wave their hands and ask about getting to Coruscant), and how many will agree to the haggled down 45 sovereigns, assuming they were capable of mind-tricking it down to say, 30 (they're looking for an advantage here, they're not criminal scum). How many of those fifty could watch a loved one die when they're a wrist slice or a demon away from being able to save them. This, in a round about way, brings me back to Anders. His feelings about the circle, whether he is damaged or not, stem not necessarily from the treatment he has received but perhaps rather form what he did not receive. As a child he says he ran away from the circle because he's homesick. He attempts to run away from the circle no less than seven times. Perhaps the circle is not nurturing enough, or there are no ears to receive his grief at being separated from his family, especially his mother, as they seem to have had a strong bond. Perhaps, like Aneirin, he just wasn't given the time and treatment he needed to help him settle. But no matter what went wrong early in his life, we get a picture of Anders from Awakening through to DA2 that could raise a lot of suspicions as to what his character is truly like. He claims his only companion in solitary confinement, a cat, gets possessed and kills three templars. When The Warden finds him at Vigils Keep he is surrounded by dead darkspawn and templars, and denies having killed the latter. Later, when he is witnessed joining with Justice and confronted by templars for being an abomination, he kills all of them. This and his later murders could be attributed to Justice, but he has been in a few situations that include dead templars and it does seem to be a rather running theme. If you suspect the best of him, he is not responsible for any of these deaths, if you consider Justice to be a separate entity who takes advantage of Anders' physcial form. On the other hand, it's perfectly possible that Anders has been murdering templars for years, sometimes without a cause that we're informed of. The way he deals with "freedom" is often with rage and violence, where he appears to be the embodiment of the worst kind of mage - immoral, unhindered by conscience, using his abilities to bring death and destruction to those who do not share his world view. Whilst he can seem a fairly normal, functional man, he hides the capacity for immense power, hatred and violence. Ironically, Anders, who wants freedom for all mages, embodies most of the things that people fear, and that have kept mages locked away in their circles for so long. Not (only) damage the mages in the Circles, because they are locked (but I believe this is a very important fact ...) The uncertainty is an important factor: they are don't know, when they can leave the Circle, when they forced to move to another Circle (as Karl for example) or they ever to get permission to leave the Circle. They're totally vulneable, while actually, they're strong. The Templars can do anything with them without consequences. And many are doing so. The vulnerability and unpredictability destroys the mind. There are some who more endure, somebody sooner going crazy, but it affects everyone. Therefore, the Circles are not only cruel, but also dangerous. A bounch of mental damaged nervous and desperated mage really dangerous. Just look at Kirkwall! Clearly was the blame of Chantry, and Circle system. Without the Circle Huon would be a good husband and probably father, Evelina just wanted to help to fereldan refugee orphans, fortunately Ella and Emile was salvageable. They are was the victims of the worst Circle system, same as Karl, Maddox, Thrask's doughter, Meredith's sister, Raleigh Samson, and yes, Meredith Stannard. Tevinter is another case. Not same as Southern Thedas. Their religion, morality and traditions totally different. Tevinter's problem is the slavery. Look at: in the ancient Rome (sorry for the IRL metaphor), there hadn't lived mages, but the slavery existed, and the slaveholders was able to kill their property... Nowhere on earth hadn't lived mages, but human sacrifice still existed somewhere, but not everywhere! Okay, back to Thedas: The magic is a weapon. Who have a weapon, not sure, that will use on his weaponless neighbor, just because want more money. Relatively few people able for this. Why mages would different? And back to Anders: he also was a victim of Circle-system. And he was mentally damaged or not, he was right. His means was morally questionable, but his purpose was good. And: he tried another, peaceful way, he tried to convince Elthina. Kirkwall was sick. There was not peaceful solution. If you play as pro-mage Hawke, the nobles ready for fight against Meredith. I know it's not Sebastian thread, but why many people think, that he is innocent, when Anders judged as criminal? Sebastian more guilty than Anders, he able to annect with an army a bleeding city, abuse his power, because of vengeance. He don't have ANY good purpose... (and I don't hate him...)
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Post by Catilina on Oct 29, 2016 17:51:23 GMT
She really killed him, now I saw the video, ty. I can't imagine, that Vivienne feels guilty for anything. She seems sociopath. Great possible Divine... brr! ( How anyone can respect/LOVE her?) Sorry, but the irony of this being asked by an Anders lover is hilarious. He does far worse than Vivienne ever does yet you love and respect him. Yes. Anders different. He never wanted political power. He just want freedom. Vivienne much worse. Vivienne cruel. Vivienne murdered this man just for fun, just because she was able to do it. Anders had purpose, and don't saw another solution. Anders feel sorry for the victims, Vivienne seems not. AND: Anders NEVER said: My dear, and darling...!
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 29, 2016 18:13:23 GMT
Sorry, but the irony of this being asked by an Anders lover is hilarious. He does far worse than Vivienne ever does yet you love and respect him. Yes. Anders different. He never wanted political power. He just want freedom. Vivienne much worse. Vivienne cruel. Vivienne murdered this man just for fun, just because she was able to do it. Anders had purpose, and don't saw another solution. Anders feel sorry for the victims, Vivienne seems not. AND: Anders NEVER said: My dear, and darling...! Yes he did. He wanted mages to be more than the current situation. That means he wants political power. Not to the extent of being in charge, but he wanted more than he currently possessed. Anders was also cruel. He literally kills hundreds of people to cause the deaths of hundreds if not thousands more just to send a message(again, political). He does exactly what Vivienne does, just on a much larger scale. He doesn't feel sorry enough not to do it or atone after he does it, so any remorse he has means nothing. No terms of endearment? Shows how much Anders 'loves' you.
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Post by vixsyn on Oct 29, 2016 18:13:56 GMT
Who have a weapon, not sure, that will use on his weaponless neighbor, just because want more money. Relatively few people able for this. Why mages would different? I'm not going to address everything right now but there is a difference here - the mages could get away with it in a way others couldn't. It's sort of like being conned by a master - the sort of person who can take your watch whilst asking you for the time. There's a big difference between a subtle mental manipulation and threatening someone with a knife. I agree with you that not ONLY mages would do this. Other people would too, like the con artist who steals your watch. The only thing that would prevent someone from using any "power" to get what they want is their own sense of morality. Assuming most mages are not too different from most other people, then they would not do bad things just because they could. However, having all mages be free would be introducing a larger number of people who could commit all sorts of crimes and not have to worry about any consequences. The true master con artist is a rare thing. If suddenly a quarter of the population became master con artists, I expect crime would rise. It's not an argument to support circles, but rather an argument as to why circles exist. It's an interesting discussion but so far I'm not seeing that many alternatives.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 29, 2016 18:18:34 GMT
I think one possible solution is to have something like parole officers for the mages. Essentially, once a person shows an aptitude for magic they go to the Circle for training and supervision. Once they have proven to have control over their abilities and show no real weakness to temptation to abuse their powers, they are allowed out into the world to live a regular life. However, to make sure they don't slip once out of the Circle, every once in a while they are visited by some Templars who do a check up on them to make sure they are still mentally strong and in control. If they are, they are allowed to keep living their life. If they are not, they return to the Circle to attend more lessons until they are again.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 29, 2016 18:19:06 GMT
Who have a weapon, not sure, that will use on his weaponless neighbor, just because want more money. Relatively few people able for this. Why mages would different? I'm not going to address everything right now but there is a difference here - the mages could get away with it in a way others couldn't. It's sort of like being conned by a master - the sort of person who can take your watch whilst asking you for the time. There's a big difference between a subtle mental manipulation and threatening someone with a knife. I agree with you that not ONLY mages would do this. Other people would too, like the con artist who steals your watch. The only thing that would prevent someone from using any "power" to get what they want is their own sense of morality. Assuming most mages are not too different from most other people, then they would not do bad things just because they could. However, having all mages be free would be introducing a larger number of people who could commit all sorts of crimes and not have to worry about any consequences. The true master con artist is a rare thing. If suddenly a quarter of the population became master con artists, I expect crime would rise. It's not an argument to support circles, but rather an argument as to why circles exist. It's an interesting discussion but so far I'm not seeing that many alternatives. I said: just as IRL: effective police (seekers-kind with mages), registration (phylactery?), education.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 29, 2016 18:30:03 GMT
Yes. Anders different. He never wanted political power. He just want freedom. Vivienne much worse. Vivienne cruel. Vivienne murdered this man just for fun, just because she was able to do it. Anders had purpose, and don't saw another solution. Anders feel sorry for the victims, Vivienne seems not. AND: Anders NEVER said: My dear, and darling...! Yes he did. He wanted mages to be more than the current situation. That means he wants political power. Not to the extent of being in charge, but he wanted more than he currently possessed. Anders was also cruel. He literally kills hundreds of people to cause the deaths of hundreds if not thousands more just to send a message(again, political). He does exactly what Vivienne does, just on a much larger scale. He doesn't feel sorry enough not to do it or atone after he does it, so any remorse he has means nothing. No terms of endearment? Shows how much Anders 'loves' you. Anders had political purpose, but he don't want power. And anders killed people because he had believe, this is the last solution, Vivienne killed that man JUST FOR FUN! If you do not see the difference, needless to explain. ENDEARMENT? And "Oh- darling-you-look-terrible" Vivienne? (Or maybe I misunderstod you.)
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Post by Catilina on Oct 29, 2016 19:00:58 GMT
Yes. Anders different. He never wanted political power. He just want freedom. Vivienne much worse. Vivienne cruel. Vivienne murdered this man just for fun, just because she was able to do it. Anders had purpose, and don't saw another solution. Anders feel sorry for the victims, Vivienne seems not. AND: Anders NEVER said: My dear, and darling...! It wasn't just for fun. It isn't even her first thought. If you let her decide what to do with him all she does is make fun of him and let him go. It's only if your Inquisitor requests that she kill him, she kills him. Which isn't even that horrid considering he was fully prepared to pull his sword on you, a guest, in her home. And banter between Cole reveals that this man made a racist remark about her skin color. Freezing him, mocking him, and sparing him is a tame reaction. I mean, if we're comparing sociopathy between a mage whose own choice is to freeze someone and mock them and a terrorist mage who gains five friendship points for giving a former slave back to his slaver owner, I think the latter wins the Batshit Award. This kill just for fun fit better Vivienne's nature, than Anders'/JUSTICE's (!) nature this bullshit with Danarius. Anders and Fenris' hatred is a bullshit. Fenris also give 5 firendship points, if Hawke kill Anders in the Fade because Justice don't want to deal with demon. Fenris give 5 friendship points, if you blackmail the poor Thrask... this also bullshit. Fenris not that evil! In DA2 the writers did some incredible nonsense for the sake of drama. And: I never said, that Anders totally flawless.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 29, 2016 19:55:16 GMT
This kill just for fun fit better Vivienne's nature, than Anders'/JUSTICE's (!) nature this bullshit with Danarius. Anders and Fenris' hatred is a bullshit. Fenris also give 5 firendship points, if Hawke kill Anders in the Fade because Justice don't want to deal with demon. Fenris give 5 friendship points, if you blackmail the poor Thrask... this also bullshit. In DA2 the writers did some incredible nonsense for the sake of drama. And: I never said, that Anders totally flawless. boy golly someone who can't decide if Divine Vivienne is Tevinter 2.0 or the biggest mage oppressor since Meredith thinks Vivienne killing people for fun is her nature while Anders' reaction to Fenris is apparently bullshit. Well, it's one thing if it's just an approval nod. There are actions in all the games that grant bewildering approval. Like Sten approving of the blood magic ritual. Clearly doesn't make sense. And then there's approval that's actually backed with dialogue. I don't see how the bitter relations between the pro-freedom mage who likes Tevinter and the elven Tevinter slave who was abused in every way by mages in said free mage promised land are "bullshit". It makes sense to me. Especially considering how volatile Anders is to virtually everyone else in the party except for Varric and a friendship path Hawke. By Act 2, he's already been warped enough by Vengeance to almost or completely go through with killing a mage who calls him a demon. VengeanceAnders may as well approve of eliminating another obstacle against his poorly written mage rights manifesto as Fenris openly believes Meredith is doing the right thing. Tevinter 2.0 Vivienne was an argument, a proof by contradiction. But still a real danger (Vivienne too much love the power...), and It does not preclude the possibility that she is an oppressor of the mages. Vivienne only likes the power and the Game. Fenris is not a threat to Anders. He never would able to betray Hawke's friends. This is clear. And Anders don't LIKES Tevinter and don't likes slavery. Anders just want a freedom, and in Tevinter the mages live freely. Yes, he interest about Tevinter, but not "likes". The Tevinter amulet for him only the symbol of rebellion, and Hawke's gift. Anders don't want to go to Tevinter, Anders don't want to live in Tevinter. If he would likes tevinter so much, why don't want to live there? He want the freedom in Southern Thedas. He don't want magocracy, JUST free life, for all mages in Southern Thedas. And yes, this hatred is a bullshit. Yes, they are not the best friend, but for ten years playing cards together. For Hawke or/and Varric, probably yes, but still. Anders maybe jealous, but not evil. And Fenris also not evil, and don't want Ander's death. This stupid fierce rivalry just for the drama. For example, you think, Templar Carver HATE his pro-mage sister/brother? Of course NO. And I can see, how the sweet relations between this Tevinter slave and a hard-line pro-mage Hawke...
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Post by Catilina on Oct 29, 2016 20:39:33 GMT
Tevinter 2.0 Vivienne was an argument, a proof by contradiction. But still a real danger (Vivienne too much love the power...), and It does not preclude the possibility that she is an oppressor of the mages. Vivienne only likes the power and the Game. Fenris is not a threat to him. He never would able to betray Hawke's friends. This is clear. And Anders don't LIKES Tevinter and don't likes slavery. Anders just want a freedom, and in Tevinter the mages live freely. Yes, he interesting about Tevinter, but not "likes". The Tevinter amulet for him only the symbol of rebellion, and Hawke's gift. And yes, this hatred is a bullshit. Yes, they are not the best friend, but for ten years playing cards together. For Hawke or/and Varric, probably yes, but still. Anders maybe jealous, but not evil. And Fenris also not evil, and don't want Ander's death. And I can see, how the sweet relations between this Tevinter slave and a hard-line pro-mage Hawke... "Tevinter clearly has the right of it." - Awakening Anders "You should have lived in Tevinter. You'd be happier there." - Fenris "You're probably right." - Anders In the conversation of the Divine fearing Kirkwall may become Tevinter-esque "If Kirkwall falls to magic, none of us are safe." - Leliana "None of you." - Anders "He wants to die. Kill him and be done with it." - Fenris Canon says no, apparently. Where he says: I like Tevinter? He said: "Tevinter clearly has the right of it.", because the mages are free. Anders never was in Tevinter, and Anders don't believe that the Chantry say about Tevinter. He just don't believe, that Tevinter so evil, as the Chantry say. Yes. Fenris said: You should have lived in Tevinter. But Anders not said: Yes, I want to live in Tevinter, just PROBABLY... Yes, Anders said this: because he know: so much angry mages live in the Circles, and if this anger break free, the Chantry's soldiers will be trouble. This is not surprising. But maybe a threat. It was illogical? The Chantry were held captive for 1,000 years the mages and tortured them. A lot of the persecuted, tortured, wrathful people are dangerous. Also without magic. Fenris not said: I want Anders to die, he said: HE wants to die, then kill him. This is not same... Fenris so practical! I like him! Where "canon' says, that Anders LIKES Tevinter?
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