Cantina
N3
Vive la révolution mages!
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Vive la révolution mages!
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Post by Cantina on Oct 14, 2016 19:23:16 GMT
To be honest, I'm not sure even better writing could've saved WEWH. At least, not without ripping up the entire concept and starting again. Stopping a war on that scale should be beyond the Inquisitor's capabilities full stop given that it all plays second fiddle to saving the world. That's a really good point. I think you've identified the stumbling block for most players wrt WEWH. Reading between the lines, the objective of WEWH is not to stop/end a civil war, it's to experience playing The Game. Your choices are not about saving Orlais or the world, they are about playing The Game well or poorly. Bioware wants us to think of those things as one and the same, because that's the way Orlesians think, but we are not Orlesians. We are not born and bred to The Game. Our Inquisitors have much bigger problems to deal with, and we, the players, try to honor that urgency and priority. But that runs us afoul of the whole, "Enjoy playing The Game, suckers!" theme of WEWH. We're at cross-purposes to what PW intended us to experience for WEWH. Hoisted on our own pitard -- a most apt expression for an Orlesian situation. There's a considerable bias against playing The Game poorly, too. If you want to just bull through WEWH and demand that Orlesians focus on the real threat, Corypheus, and quit wasting time sniping at each other's shoes, you lose Court Approval, which limits your choices even more. What player wants that? It's too bad -- writing this out, I think a lot of players would have appreciated a STFU, quit playing games, and do something option as an active choice, not as a unexpected consequence of having a number go too low. Let me choose to have the Inquisition thrown out of the Winter Palace, instead of it just being a penalty for playing The Game wrong. A missed opportunity. How to fix it? Turn down the stakes over WEWH. It shouldn't be about ending the civil war -- those stakes are both too high (for us to really embrace The Game) and too low to really get our attention, when the world is at stake. The civil war should not be what's at stake. If Josie had pitched WEWH as, "I know this is a huge distraction, but stopping the assassination of Celene would mean X for the battle against Corypheus." I don't know what X would be, but something that would make it worthwhile. Like, chevaliers as shock troops? Access to a hidden base of RT? Money? I dunno. Something that we as players would recognize as being worthwhile to help with fighting Corypheus and motivating putting up with the stupid Game, and most importantly, making it worthwhile at some level (roleplaying, player agency, an alternative content path unlocked, a unique item reward) to choose not to play The Game.
Well, yes there is that but it was not just the story of Wicked Eyes, Wicked Hearts, it was all the little things happening on the side-lines which drove me bonkers.
Bell: Here I am running around gathering up evidence, loot, caprice coins, etc. then out of nowhere this stupid bell rings. Um. Is this school? IF you don’t get “said” items before you move to the next part in this story, “said” items will be gone. So now I am running around like a rabbit on crack and Red Bull trying to get everything. Then it turns out I am late and just lost Court Approval. So…. I am being penalized for trying to do the side quests and/or find some enjoyment out of this ball? What kind of jackass developer came up with this horseshit bell!?!
Halla Statues: I am not going to even bother. Thankfully playing on PC, I use a MOD which allows me to unlock all the doors.
The Dance: This was painfully to watch. Between the overall clunkiness to the excessive clipping. Furthermore, I watched a video on YouTube with a male dwarf dancing with the Duchess. Um. Well, it looked like the dwarf was trying to motor-boat the Duchess.
Uniforms: I am fine with the Inquisition wearing uniforms to this Ball. What I was not fine with was: the UGLY colors. Did Bioware go Disney? Thankfully (again) I have a MOD installed that changes the hideous default colors. Also, what is up with the coin pouch on the back? Is this Dishonored? Disney Dishonored?
Celene: I wanted to have a somewhat in depth conversation with the Empress like you do with Gaspard or Briala. Instead I am “forced” to speak to three of the Empress’s marionettes while the Empress stands on a balcony staring off in a daze.
Overlapping ambient conversations: Walking through the Ball Room trying to over-hear conversations then out of the blue the stupid Orlesian announcer comes bellowing over them. No, I don’t give two shits about so and so arriving.
Loosing/Gaining Approval: I lose approval when I go off to try and investigate certain areas. Um. What? It’s a Ball, hell it’s an Orlesian Ball, guests are not going to notice the Inquisitor is missing from the Ball after one minute. What happens if my Inquisitor decides she has to take a shit? Should she just pinch her ass cheeks the rest of the night? Furthermore, getting kicked out of the Ball is ridiculous. Your there to stop an assassination not eat frilly cakes and talk about the latest fashions.
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Oct 14, 2016 20:05:48 GMT
That's why it suffered, all the good writing went into the book. To be honest, I'm not sure even better writing could've saved WEWH. At least, not without ripping up the entire concept and starting again. Stopping a war on that scale should be beyond the Inquisitor's capabilities full stop given that it all plays second fiddle to saving the world. Technically though, we are not there to stop a war, but prevent an assassination. And by extension allow the peace talks to continue. Which is why going into I expected it to be something akin to a spy thriller, a mystery. We were going to look for suspects, find clues, question servants or play the Grand Game with nobles. But unmasking the assassin proved to be very linear. Our impact on the talks depended entirely on how many hall statues we gathered and which doors we unlocked. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2016 7:26:10 GMT
Ugh. I hate the fade segment the most, it was like DAO again, but I couldn't skip past it...
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Liadan
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Post by Liadan on Oct 15, 2016 19:06:42 GMT
Best: In your heart shall burn
Worst: Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts
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Post by Duke Cameron on Oct 15, 2016 21:17:51 GMT
Seems like i'm the only person that actually likes Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts.
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Post by dragontartare on Oct 15, 2016 21:47:35 GMT
My favorite is probably Here Lies The Abyss. I like the fade sequence (unlike the one in DAO) and it's neat to see the fears of all the companions. Next time I play, I will have Alistair instead of Stroud, so that should be interesting. My least favorite is the end game one. It just feels very underwhelming. Seems like i'm the only person that actually likes Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts. I sort of like it, actually. It's something different, at least, and I like the interactions with my companions. Unfortunately, I can't seem to get past the timed segments without a guide. |
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Post by Catilina on Oct 15, 2016 22:03:11 GMT
Seems like i'm the only person that actually likes Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts. The developers missed a dozen of opportunities, after the empty place of the missed opportunities they filled up Halla statuettes... |
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bella
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Post by bella on Oct 15, 2016 22:49:29 GMT
Seems like i'm the only person that actually likes Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts. Not at all, I actually loved it in my first playthrough! Felt like a breath of fresh air after all the more combat oriented missions. On subsequent playthroughs it's gotten a bit tedious, though, especially if I've been aiming for a certain outcome. But I'm still quite fond of it. |
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sleepicub09
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Post by sleepicub09 on Oct 15, 2016 23:14:09 GMT
The problem with wicked eyes and wicked hearts is that it really felt like a really big fetch quest in the form a main quest. That's why it's the worst. The best is your heart shall burn. Such intensity.
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Post by Duke Cameron on Oct 16, 2016 3:54:45 GMT
One of my favorite things about the Dragon Age world is the Orlesian culture, the Game, the masks, etc. so i can't get enough of that setting and characters. Celene and Florianne are probably my favorite "new" characters in Inquisition and that's why I always make Florianne the jester so i can keep her around. My love for Orlesian culture and settings is probably why The Masked Empire is the only Dragon Age book I've read, and why i bought this...  |
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Post by Dabrikishaw on Oct 16, 2016 15:29:40 GMT
I also like WEWH, though I get some of the criticism of it like being a timed mission, hall statues turning most of it into a fetch quest, needing to read The Masked Empire to know who the major players all are, etc.
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kalvarez
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Post by kalvarez on Oct 16, 2016 23:49:09 GMT
Best: Tresspasser... But for main quest In your heart shall burn, except for the silly religious singing.
Worst: The final one. It's really anticlimatic. Especially if you completed Jaws of Hakkon and The Decent before. It's stupidly easy :C
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Domakir
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I'm a good person, but I don't practice it.
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Post by Domakir on Oct 17, 2016 7:54:13 GMT
Best: In your heart shall burn.
Worst: What pride has wrought.
It started well but the end didn't make sense. I missed a third option and the most logical one. Nobody drinks from the Well and destroy it like Abelas planned to do.
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Post by Ieldra on Oct 17, 2016 13:12:52 GMT
Best: In Your Heart Shall Burn.
Very emotionally intense but without stupid drama, connects nicely with the world's lore, and has Corypheus at his better moments. It only downside is the non-choice of basically sacrificing yourself, even though as a player you know you survive. I wish they scrapped Heroic Sacrifice completely as a theme. It tends to not work in video rpgs.
Honorable mention: Here Lies the Abyss. If it wasn't for Hawke being OOC in the Western Approach, it would've been very satisfying. The Fade sequence was great in many respects.
Worst: Doom Upon All the World.
I don't like boss fights, and Corypheus became a stereotypical villain. The final mission should be a highlight, but it was disappointing even as a standard main mission instead.
Dishonorable mention: Champions of the Just
The thematic direction made no sense to me. I hate timed sequences. And there's a disconnect between the Templars taking lyrium here and Cullen's later rejection of it, that's never explained.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 17, 2016 15:11:03 GMT
Dishonorable mention: Champions of the Just The thematic direction made no sense to me. I hate timed sequences. And there's a disconnect between the Templars taking lyrium here and Cullen's later rejection of it, that's never explained. I admit the timed sequences were a bit frustrating. But by the time I do it I'm high enough level I can steamroll the opposition, so it's not a major factor for me. I'd just go back whenever I accomplished an objective. I'm curious though, what was so confusing about the thematic direction? As for the lyrium, it was clearly done out of necessity. It was the only way to bring down the magic barrier. I suppose one could say it goes back to the "sacrifice" theme that Bioware has latched onto in recent years. But I found it to be a fitting moment in a redemption arc for the Templars. |
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Post by NRieh on Oct 17, 2016 15:51:00 GMT
Best? Champions of the Just\In Your Heart Shall Burn (up to the Skyhold). Just because. It's good. It's everything story-game-design should be.
Worst? Wicked Eyes & Wicked Hearts. For so many reasons. It does not make much sense to those who had not read the book, and it screws those who had as well. Characters are so weak and pale compared to the originals. Worst immersion-breaking moments like climbing the fucking garden fence infront of the crowded party). Halas. The whole thing had been obviously designed around the human-only character (and so had been the whole game, to be honest), but the ballroom dance with the dwarf is a special kind of crime. Animation set is ridiculous! Half of the time the dwarfquizitor is floating around (watch the head level, and the final figure should have smashed the duchess' head against the floor breaking her spine.
DA2 had 'something different' too, it was MotA. Absolutely cool balance between the design\fighting\writing\optional puzzles\character interactions (romance-sensitive interactions included). Now give me a SINGLE reason why my rogueQuizitor lady with the lockpick perk need those bloody hallas, keys and other stuff. Why do I need to look for 'spots' if I'm almost as good as that DnD meme rogue which can 'hide in their own shadows'?!!
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Post by Ieldra on Oct 17, 2016 20:44:13 GMT
I'm curious though, what was so confusing about the thematic direction? Not confusing. In fact, the themes were easily discerned, but I couldn't connect to it. The envy demon showed me what the Inquisition could be if I let it guide me. Except that I remained completely emotionally untouched by it. It has something to do with my personal attitude to power. The only kind of power that would be tempting to me is intrinsic, a type of power that doesn't depend on other people, social hierarchies etc.. I'd never be interested in being a boss. Of personal autonomy, however, I could never have enough. That's why I'm much more easily emotionally moved by stories about magic and superpowers. "In Hushed Whispers", among other things, told me "this is what could happen if I have these powers and fuck things up". That's meaningful, because I would actually want those powers and actively work to acquire them if I were a mageborn in Thedas. I've always seen Corypheus as a sort of dark mirror of my main Inquisitor. The templar side, meanwhile, was never meaningful to me. |
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Oct 17, 2016 20:49:53 GMT
I'm curious though, what was so confusing about the thematic direction? Not confusing. In fact, the themes were easily discerned, but I couldn't connect to it. The envy demon showed me what the Inquisition could be if I let it guide me. Except that I remained completely emotionally untouched by it. It has something to do with my personal attitude to power. The only kind of power that would be tempting to me is intrinsic, a type of power that doesn't depend on other people, social hierarchies etc.. I'd never be interested in being a boss. Of personal autonomy, however, I could never have enough. That's why I'm much more easily emotionally moved by stories about magic and superpowers. "In Hushed Whispers", among other things, told me "this is what could happen if I have these powers and fuck things up". That's meaningful, because I would actually want those powers and actively work to acquire them if I were a mageborn in Thedas. I've always seen Corypheus as a sort of dark mirror of my main Inquisitor. The templar side, meanwhile, was never meaningful to me. Ah, you see, I got something different from it. I saw it as what the Envy demon intended to do once it has replaced the Inquisitor. Your minds were touching, and gaining information from each other. As the Envy demon was going through your memories in order to understand you, the Inquisitor was (literally) going through the Envy demon's mind, seeing what the demon's plans were. The demon saw the past through your eyes, you saw the future through its. |
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Post by Ieldra on Oct 17, 2016 21:23:16 GMT
Not confusing. In fact, the themes were easily discerned, but I couldn't connect to it. The envy demon showed me what the Inquisition could be if I let it guide me. Except that I remained completely emotionally untouched by it. It has something to do with my personal attitude to power. The only kind of power that would be tempting to me is intrinsic, a type of power that doesn't depend on other people, social hierarchies etc.. I'd never be interested in being a boss. Of personal autonomy, however, I could never have enough. That's why I'm much more easily emotionally moved by stories about magic and superpowers. "In Hushed Whispers", among other things, told me "this is what could happen if I have these powers and fuck things up". That's meaningful, because I would actually want those powers and actively work to acquire them if I were a mageborn in Thedas. I've always seen Corypheus as a sort of dark mirror of my main Inquisitor. The templar side, meanwhile, was never meaningful to me. Ah, you see, I got something different from it. I saw it as what the Envy demon intended to do once it has replaced the Inquisitor. Your minds were touching, and gaining information from each other. As the Envy demon was going through your memories in order to understand you, the Inquisitor was (literally) going through the Envy demon's mind, seeing what the demon's plans were. The demon saw the past through your eyes, you saw the future through its. Yes, that's actually the simpler interpretation, but it would turn the envy demon into not more than a normal enemy who happened to have some psychic powers. So I had the option between boring and thematically disconnected. |
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Post by secretrare on Oct 19, 2016 1:18:35 GMT
I'm curious though, what was so confusing about the thematic direction? Not confusing. In fact, the themes were easily discerned, but I couldn't connect to it. The envy demon showed me what the Inquisition could be if I let it guide me. Except that I remained completely emotionally untouched by it. It has something to do with my personal attitude to power. The only kind of power that would be tempting to me is intrinsic, a type of power that doesn't depend on other people, social hierarchies etc.. I'd never be interested in being a boss. Of personal autonomy, however, I could never have enough. That's why I'm much more easily emotionally moved by stories about magic and superpowers. "In Hushed Whispers", among other things, told me "this is what could happen if I have these powers and fuck things up". That's meaningful, because I would actually want those powers and actively work to acquire them if I were a mageborn in Thedas. I've always seen Corypheus as a sort of dark mirror of my main Inquisitor. The templar side, meanwhile, was never meaningful to me. These kind of individual super-powers do not exist in nature and actually that is a good thing.The greatest form of power(political power) is tied to the trust the people give to their leaders who can be easly deprived of that power if they start to become untrustworthy for whatever reason. On the other hand there is no point in trusting an individual who live in absolute autonomy to the point where it does not need others anymore and is completly detached from them,a sort of mage-god that is no longer able to experience the difficulty of life. There is also the issue of greed. Who know how many individuals under the pretence of the desire of more autonomy would have ended up like Corypheus and the Architect,two of them required some millions of deaths to be handeled not to mention the god-kings they literlly destroyed their world because they wanted to become even more powerful than what they were as Evanuris(more powerful than gods) The more one become powerful with that kind of power the more it is to be considered a threat,the greed of power is the first form of threat. |
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NeverlandHunter
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Post by NeverlandHunter on Oct 19, 2016 3:14:09 GMT
Hm, good question!
Favorites in no particular order:
In Your Heart Shall Burn- I felt pretty badarse telling Corypheus he sucks and then firing the trebuchet into the mountains. Going all Mulan on his army! And walking through the snow, while incredibly tedious (I usually just keep my thumb moving the Inquisitor as I go about my business on my phone), added to the bardarse feel and was a great moment of isolation. I could almost feel my Inquisitor's exhaustion and freezing body and was routing for her to keep it, she only had a little bit more to go!
What Pride Had Wrought- First, the hindsight play on the name (Solas). I also loved the lore drop and reveal (my Lavellan was in a state of shock practically the whole mission). Plus, you get Morrigan in your party again! Nostalgia! She's just as much of a know-it-all, but I still love her! Aaand, finally, I figured all the puzzles by myself! I hate puzzles and usually give up and look up the answers right away, but I didn't *pats self on shoulder*.
Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts- What can I say? I like a party and some backstabbing politics to give it flavor!
Champions of the Just- It might have taken a while to role an Inquisitor and decide to do this quest on my own accord, but I kept hearing good things about it, so I came up with a fitting reason my second Inquisitor would go the Templars instead of the mages, and we were off. And yeah, this quest is awesome, it only sucks that the pro-mage equivalent is not.
Least favorites:
In Hushed Whispers- I hate time travel. End, beginning, and middle of story. Okay, and, if it wasn't for Dorian this quest would have zero likability, as it is, Dorian I love you, but you're not enough to save this one. It's extra awful in comparison to the Templar equivalent, and the fact that I usually role pro-mage protagonists... well, this was an unfortunate turn of events.
Here Lies the Abyss- The first part was meh. I was disappointed about the turn of events for the Wardens. And I'm still scarred from the Fade from Dragon Age: Origins *shivers*
Doom Upon All the World- Ugh, such a letdown. The dragon fight was cool, but your fight, such a letdown.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 31, 2016 21:30:36 GMT
My favorite quest: (if by going by tier rating this would be tier 1.): In your heart shall burn. This quest is honestly a quest I think should be taught. Not only as how to do a good video game quest but as a good concept of actual writing. The string of narrative reverses in the quest was absolutly phenomenal. To take the Inquisitor, soon to be, from the absolutley lowest point ever to the highest point in the world. Tears of joy and sorrow and happiness and all the cheering. This quest was simply a narrative, pacing, masterpiece. Only real quibble is it maybe should have been two quests, and maybe a quest or two where you tried to find out about who the Elder One was before he decided to come down and tear down your entire world. But like I said, minor quibble.
My least favorite quests (Now I still enjoyed these quests, even very much, but they were still the 'worse' of the worse):
Wrath of Heaven: This quest being the first quest in Dragon Age should have been much...different. I understand what theyw ere going for and it was even effective to a certain degree but we really should have gotten time with the Inquisitor before the breach to get to know them and maybe some of their family or those mercenaries we keep talking about. Some quiet time to get acclimated and start forming the basis for our characters, if we do head canons, before BOOM.
In Hushed Whispers: This quest wasn't bad per se but it felt very...disjointed. And the fact was it revealed major plot information via time travel, without being especially interesting other then that? Kind of lazy writing. And the fact that the other quest we got was Champions of the Just...
Doom Upon the World: I do not think the ending to DA I was bad, after all as I have said often the ending to DA I to me is really What Pride had Wrought, the Final Pieces, and then Doom, but I have to admit that the final quest consisisting of only one boss battle with Corypheus was kind of...bad. Anyways though this quest does get props for that last cut scene and it kind of saved Cory's character too 'Dumat ancient ones I beeseech you..."
Honorable Mention: Champions of the Just: This quest was really, really interesting. It was a psychologically based look into the Inquisitor, a great introduction to Cole, and a great way to tie up the mage plotline. It was just so fascinating and so ambient. The only thing that stopped it from being truly great was that it was another missed opprotunity. BioWare could have really given us another look into the Inquisitor's potential childhood, even tieing it into the response you gave Jospehine about whether or not to involve the Trevelyans in your quest. And again, ind of a lazy way of introducing pertinent plot information but the rest of the quest was so solid I didn't even notice.
Dishonorable Mention: Florianne: The quest Wicked Eyes was fun...but she was probably the poorest written badguy in the entire game.
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