Sanunes
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Post by Sanunes on Dec 16, 2018 13:15:34 GMT
Maybe, but the synthetics still never rose up to challenge the Leviathan. As I interpreted it, the synthetics were a hassle but not a direct threat to them. They must have repeatedly been crushing synthetics. It was a tedious process and, yes, it threatened their resources. Realistically, if they'd wanted to, they could have thrown their spheres all over and made sure the races never made AI. Simple solution but they couldn't see it. In order to be sustained by their slave races, Leviathan needed them to progress to a certain point, technology-wise... and that point included the use of AI. We see this same train of thought repeated in the Reapers, which are the AI created by the Leviathan's AI. Sovereign says it; "Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays, our technology. By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire." Leviathan did not distribute spheres to stop their slaves from creating AI because that would have not allowed them to develop far enough technology-wise, so that wasn't the simple solution either. Just as tribute doesn't flow from a dead race, the "right sort" of tribute doesn't flow from an underdeveloped one either. I'm also unclear how the spheres would stop their slave races from developing AI. The spheres have intermittent control to make a subject murder someone, but as a long-terrm control, they appear to only be able to separate the subjects from their reality. The flow of the experiments in the mine appear to be just gathering data on human and biotic behavior rather than controlling or directing the development of technology. Perhaps the spheres aren't really capable of exerting the sort of control you're asking for? I guess they could have used the orbs to take control of someone that was part of AI development to sabotage it, but that doesn't seem like it would always be that successful especially on a planet like Earth where "hey where did that large orb come from"? Going by what I saw in Mass Effect 3 the orbs override the person so they have no idea what is going on and are in a "cold, dark place" and the Leviathan's are in control.
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Post by dmc1001 on Dec 16, 2018 21:46:30 GMT
I guess they could have used the orbs to take control of someone that was part of AI development to sabotage it, but that doesn't seem like it would always be that successful especially on a planet like Earth where "hey where did that large orb come from"? Orbs can be buried. Orbs, with beings who use mind control, can be made to ignore. Besides, it wasn't inhabited by humans back then. Life was on Earth, sure, but we were nearly a billion years away from pre-humans. First signs of humans were ~150,000 years ago. That's a drop in the bucket and more than sufficient time for the Leviathan to advance technology to the point where the orbs would go unnoticed. Yes, cold, dark place. Set up systems to watch for the trend in AI development. Activate orbs to have said people kill themselves, delete the information or whatever. Seriously easy if a mere human from some backward ass planet (in terms of their technology) can think it up.
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Post by dmc1001 on Dec 16, 2018 21:55:01 GMT
In order to be sustained by their slave races, L eviathan needed them to progress to a certain point, technology-wise... and that point included the use of AI. We see this same train of thought repeated in the Reapers, which are the AI created by the Leviathan's AI. Sovereign says it; "Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays, our technology. By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire." The Intelligence was, by all accounts, the first AI the Leviathan ever created. They didn't create the Reapers, it did. The Intelligence - that first AI - turned on them and slaughtered them except for a certain number who escaped. I'm aware of the mass relay technology. It's not AI. There were AI in the MW and here's who they were: geth, whatever the Alliance was working up during ME: Revelation, the LOKI mechs that only wanted to "live" but were gunned down by C-SEC, the one on the Citadel that was siphoning money so it could afford to be shipped off to geth space and join them and EDI. Technically, SAM, but sort of irrelevant. Perhaps the spheres aren't really capable of exerting the sort of control you're asking for? Maybe, but I'm having a hard time believing a race that could dominate a galaxy's worth of sentient beings is unable to make it happen.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2018 1:01:39 GMT
In order to be sustained by their slave races, L eviathan needed them to progress to a certain point, technology-wise... and that point included the use of AI. We see this same train of thought repeated in the Reapers, which are the AI created by the Leviathan's AI. Sovereign says it; "Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays, our technology. By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire." The Intelligence was, by all accounts, the first AI the Leviathan ever created. They didn't create the Reapers, it did. The Intelligence - that first AI - turned on them and slaughtered them except for a certain number who escaped. I'm aware of the mass relay technology. It's not AI. There were AI in the MW and here's who they were: geth, whatever the Alliance was working up during ME: Revelation, the LOKI mechs that only wanted to "live" but were gunned down by C-SEC, the one on the Citadel that was siphoning money so it could afford to be shipped off to geth space and join them and EDI. Technically, SAM, but sort of irrelevant. Perhaps the spheres aren't really capable of exerting the sort of control you're asking for? Maybe, but I'm having a hard time believing a race that could dominate a galaxy's worth of sentient beings is unable to make it happen. I never said that the Reapers were created first or that Leviathan created the Reapers. I basically said that the Reapers and the AI exhibit the same thought process... to allow a civilization to develop to a certain point, but not beyond that point. I sm implying that this line of though began with Leviathan. To me, it would be logical if both the AI and the Reapers suffered from the same sort of "logic error" in their programming. The survival of Leviathan is threatened because they are completely dependent on the tribute flowing from their slave races. It's like, say, Leviathan are addicted to a particular designer drug that can only be produced once a slave race has developed an AI capable of manufacturing it. The drug is the tribute, but it doesn't start to flow to Leviathan until the slave race develops AI tech and stops flowing if the slave race goes to war against their AI the manufacture it (regardless of who wins that war). Leviathan's problem then is how to let a slave race develop far enough to be able to create their "drug" without allowing them to develop too far such they wind up going to war with that slave race's own AI's. If they stop their slaves from developing AI, they don't get their drug/tribute, so they don't want to stop them from developing AI.
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Post by dmc1001 on Dec 17, 2018 1:13:56 GMT
If they stop their slaves from developing AI, they don't get their drug/tribute, so they don't want to stop them from developing AI. We don't actually know what the tribute is that they give. No reason to assume AI is necessary for it. They were also dumb enough to think they were immune to the pitfalls of "lesser" races and able to create an AI that wouldn't turn on them. Maybe they're just not programming them properly. Geth pretty much worshiped their creators until the quarians turned on them. Even then, they only drove them off until the Reapers turned some of them to the Dark Side. We already see the Reapers are utterly flawed in their assertions. Even setting them and the zha'til aside, I'm sure this must have happened countless times over the last billion years. Why not explore why some AI don't rebel and figure out a solution from there? There would have been a lot less galactic genocide that way. *Misread your comment about who created the Reapers, so apologies for that.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2018 2:28:24 GMT
Well, here we go again -- people whining about the last 1% of a game not doing what the other 99% of the game already did. I mean, BioWare knew that all you people needed was an epilogue that was literally nothing but repeating things players already knew. I agree, but would have worded it nicer.
Every little plot point can be wrapped up before the end of the game, because those were sub plots. The main plot (Reaper conflict) was resolved at the end. So technically they accomplished their mission.
Unless you're one of those people who doesn't care about the Reaper conflict and focuses on the character conflicts, which actually did get resolved. Just not at the end, and not in the way some may have wanted.
The way this game was set up was that it was the end of civilization if you failed, and the closure must come before the end, not at the end.
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Post by The Biotic Trebuchet on Dec 17, 2018 4:36:05 GMT
I know where this is going...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2018 14:41:14 GMT
If they stop their slaves from developing AI, they don't get their drug/tribute, so they don't want to stop them from developing AI. We don't actually know what the tribute is that they give. No reason to assume AI is necessary for it. They were also dumb enough to think they were immune to the pitfalls of "lesser" races and able to create an AI that wouldn't turn on them. Maybe they're just not programming them properly. Geth pretty much worshiped their creators until the quarians turned on them. Even then, they only drove them off until the Reapers turned some of them to the Dark Side. We already see the Reapers are utterly flawed in their assertions. Even setting them and the zha'til aside, I'm sure this must have happened countless times over the last billion years. Why not explore why some AI don't rebel and figure out a solution from there? There would have been a lot less galactic genocide that way. *Misread your comment about who created the Reapers, so apologies for that. Agreed. I'm making an assumption about the nature of the tribute and saying that, as a result, they had a motive to allowing AI to be developed; whereas, you're making the assumption that Leviathan was just too stupid to try to use their own orbs to stop the development of AI. At the bottom line, we're both making an assumption which probably fits our individual role plays of the game.
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Post by sil on Dec 17, 2018 14:53:58 GMT
Yeah, pretty sure ME is alive! ...It's just what it will turn into that I am worried about. I dread that they'll pull an Anthem with it, make it an MMO of some sort in the hope of generating more revenue. I hope to be wrong.
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Post by flyingsquirrel on Dec 17, 2018 15:27:41 GMT
We don't actually know what the tribute is that they give. No reason to assume AI is necessary for it. They were also dumb enough to think they were immune to the pitfalls of "lesser" races and able to create an AI that wouldn't turn on them. Maybe they're just not programming them properly. Geth pretty much worshiped their creators until the quarians turned on them. Even then, they only drove them off until the Reapers turned some of them to the Dark Side. We already see the Reapers are utterly flawed in their assertions. Even setting them and the zha'til aside, I'm sure this must have happened countless times over the last billion years. Why not explore why some AI don't rebel and figure out a solution from there? There would have been a lot less galactic genocide that way. *Misread your comment about who created the Reapers, so apologies for that. Well, this is part of the inherent problem with designing super-powerful AI - if we aren't careful about what assumptions we give them from Day 1 and exactly when, how, and why they can question those assumptions, we could end up with an "overlord" that isn't evil or malicious but is still dangerous because it's working from a different set of assumptions. Most likely, the Intelligence was designed to start with the Leviathans' assumption that genocide of organics by synthetics was inevitable without some sort of extraordinary intervention. If it's programmed not to question that assumption, it may not matter how smart it is otherwise if its mind is still blocked from going down that path (which appears to change when the Crucible docks). None of that is to say that what the Catalyst is doing is *ethically* justifiable. It isn't, because among other things, it doesn't seem to understand the value of an individual life. But it's not beyond the realm of possibility that something like this could happen if you design a very powerful and intelligent - but arbitrarily constrained and poorly programmed - artificial intelligence. That's why I always say that the Leviathans, with their own selfish attitudes and lack of morality, are the true villains of Mass Effect. If you want to know why the Catalyst is so myopic and empty of ethics, just look at its creators.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2018 15:30:16 GMT
Yeah, pretty sure ME is alive! ...It's just what it will turn into that I am worried about. I dread that they'll pull an Anthem with it, make it an MMO of some sort in the hope of generating more revenue. I hope to be wrong. With Anthem, I think it's now less likely that Bioware will turn ME into part of an MMO. They're more likely to just collapse the franchise entirely if the fans hotly reject whatever the next installment turns out to be. Even more than ME:A had to succeed, the next ME absolutely has to succeed. I think it took some convincing for Casey and others to convince EA to give the Mass Effect single-player RPG franchise another chance, but I think it now clearly has that "another chance." We'll just have to wait to see what everyone (Bioware and the fans) ultimately make of it.
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Post by themikefest on Dec 17, 2018 15:54:35 GMT
Leviathan suffered from politician syndrome, the big head, believing everything they say and do without any thought to the consequences.
One day Leviathan was sitting on the beach soaking up some rays while a few thralls were fanning him. After a few minutes, he began to wonder why a thrall was taking so long to bring his pina colada while another thrall was suppose to bring him some caviar and cheese. He looked around the beach and realized there were a lot fewer thralls than he recalled. This troubled him. So he calls for a meeting of the minds.
In the top secret-double-hush-gush room, were the top leaders of Leviathan. They noted their friends concern by noticing the same. This was very alarming. They tasked Detective Leviathan to investigate. After his investigation, he gave them bad news. The thralls are building robots that eventually destroy the thralls. The room went quiet. After a few moments, they called for Professor Leviathan. He is tasked to find a solution at once before it gets out of hand. He agrees since for thew first time in nearly forever, he had to get up and get his own drink instead of having a thrall get it for him the other day.
The Professor is enjoying a nice day at the beach with his fellow Leviathans, when a loud thud is heard, then another. He looks to his right. Oh crap. Its a giant walking blender with the intelligence inside controlling the thing with a big grin on its face. It's at that moment the Professor realized he forgot to put restrictions on the thing. Yep. Stupid is that stupid does.
Me, I would have Leviathan be the ones that built the reapers, or rather the thralls. The purpose was to build the relay network to make traveling around the galaxy easier. Harbinger is the shop foreman that would pass the instructions to the other reapers when it was upgraded. Something went wrong that caused Harbinger to order the reapers to attack Leviathan.
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Post by dmc1001 on Dec 17, 2018 18:26:28 GMT
We don't actually know what the tribute is that they give. No reason to assume AI is necessary for it. They were also dumb enough to think they were immune to the pitfalls of "lesser" races and able to create an AI that wouldn't turn on them. Maybe they're just not programming them properly. Geth pretty much worshiped their creators until the quarians turned on them. Even then, they only drove them off until the Reapers turned some of them to the Dark Side. We already see the Reapers are utterly flawed in their assertions. Even setting them and the zha'til aside, I'm sure this must have happened countless times over the last billion years. Why not explore why some AI don't rebel and figure out a solution from there? There would have been a lot less galactic genocide that way. *Misread your comment about who created the Reapers, so apologies for that. Agreed. I'm making an assumption about the nature of the tribute and saying that, as a result, they had a motive to allowing AI to be developed; whereas, you're making the assumption that Leviathan was just too stupid to try to use their own orbs to stop the development of AI. At the bottom line, we're both making an assumption which probably fits our individual role plays of the game. I do think they're too stupid. Even if they created some sort of cap on how far AI could develop it would still stop genocide on an inconceivable level. That the Leviathan even consider this to be a viable solution (and the Leviathan DLC thinks it still us so long as they aren't threatened) shows how flawed they are.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2018 19:05:23 GMT
Agreed. I'm making an assumption about the nature of the tribute and saying that, as a result, they had a motive to allowing AI to be developed; whereas, you're making the assumption that Leviathan was just too stupid to try to use their own orbs to stop the development of AI. At the bottom line, we're both making an assumption which probably fits our individual role plays of the game. I do think they're too stupid. Even if they created some sort of cap on how far AI could develop it would still stop genocide on an inconceivable level. That the Leviathan even consider this to be a viable solution (and the Leviathan DLC thinks it still us so long as they aren't threatened) shows how flawed they are. You are definitely entitled to your assumption... just recognize that it is also an assumption.
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Post by biggydx on Dec 20, 2018 19:18:58 GMT
Kinda goes to the question of whether the Reapers should have been a thing in the first place. That's not me making a judgement call on what ending I would have liked. I had my own theory, but I don't think it would have panned out well either.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Dec 20, 2018 20:05:44 GMT
Kinda goes to the question of whether the Reapers should have been a thing in the first place. That's not me making a judgement call on what ending I would have liked. I had my own theory, but I don't think it would have panned out well either. Oh, most definitely. The robot squids were a mistake.
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Post by ahglock on Dec 20, 2018 21:13:51 GMT
Kinda goes to the question of whether the Reapers should have been a thing in the first place. That's not me making a judgement call on what ending I would have liked. I had my own theory, but I don't think it would have panned out well either. Oh, most definitely. The robot squids were a mistake. I don’t know. Yeah the whole space Cthulhu incompressible thing from beyond is overdone but Sovereign was dope. If they could have kept that tone I think it could have been a success. I can’t remember who but someone suggested ME3 should have been us going to them instead of us fighting them here. And I kind of agree but not in a we kick their asses sense but in a we sabotage their ability to get here for a 3rd and final time. Still a potential boogie man for future games even if just a lone reaper but the trilogies story of the reaper invasion would be complete while keeping the over powered space Cthulhu theme going.
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Post by sil on Dec 21, 2018 3:09:11 GMT
Oh, most definitely. The robot squids were a mistake. I don’t know. Yeah the whole space Cthulhu incompressible thing from beyond is overdone but Sovereign was dope. If they could have kept that tone I think it could have been a success. I can’t remember who but someone suggested ME3 should have been us going to them instead of us fighting them here. And I kind of agree but not in a we kick their asses sense but in a we sabotage their ability to get here for a 3rd and final time. Still a potential boogie man for future games even if just a lone reaper but the trilogies story of the reaper invasion would be complete while keeping the over powered space Cthulhu theme going. I think one of the big mistakes was that there was no consequence to the Reapers for travelling via FTL to the Milky Way. The Protheans closed the Citadel Relay which severely slowed their effort to end the Cycle, then we killed Sovereign to stop them using the Relay, and then stopped the Collectors who were building a Reaper to use to open the Citadel Relay... but their use of FTL didn't impact them at all. It should've been their achilles heel in some way, or at least provided us with an edge of some sort, but instead they just arrive quickly without it taking any toll on them. It even took less time to fly from the intergalactic void to the Milky Way than it did for the Collectors to make a Reaper.
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Post by themikefest on Dec 21, 2018 3:45:40 GMT
I think one of the big mistakes was that there was no consequence to the Reapers for travelling via FTL to the Milky Way. Even if traveling to the Milky Way would have some kind of consequence, all they would have to do is sit back to recharge their batteries before starting the harvest. They would not start the harvest in a weakened state. Is there anything that says that's why they were building a reaper? If that's the case, how long would it have been before the reaper was completed? Look how much of it was completed after about 2 years. By the time they have the thing built, the reapers would have arrived in the galaxy to start the harvest.
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Post by ahglock on Dec 21, 2018 5:32:59 GMT
I think one of the big mistakes was that there was no consequence to the Reapers for travelling via FTL to the Milky Way. Even if traveling to the Milky Way would have some kind of consequence, all they would have to do is sit back to recharge their batteries before starting the harvest. They would not start the harvest in a weakened state. Is there anything that says that's why they were building a reaper? If that's the case, how long would it have been before the reaper was completed? Look how much of it was completed after about 2 years. By the time they have the thing built, the reapers would have arrived in the galaxy to start the harvest. Going with the rewrite that it hurts them, while they could have the Reapers hide and recover they can easily have a story point for how you find them anyways. They invade a more primitive system dominating the locals, but someone escapes and makes it to Shepard to warn the galaxy, a scout stumbles across them, they chose the batarians because that is where they landed and they didn't have the energy to keep traveling, batarins get a warning out etc.
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Post by cloud9 on Dec 21, 2018 8:08:06 GMT
It will be if BioWare keep on fucking it up like Andromeda.
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inherit
2754
0
5,958
Son of Dorn
Fortifying everything.
6,270
Jan 11, 2017 14:17:27 GMT
January 2017
doomlolz
Dragon Age Inquisition
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Post by Son of Dorn on Dec 21, 2018 9:23:16 GMT
I don’t know. Yeah the whole space Cthulhu incompressible thing from beyond is overdone but Sovereign was dope. If they could have kept that tone I think it could have been a success. I can’t remember who but someone suggested ME3 should have been us going to them instead of us fighting them here. And I kind of agree but not in a we kick their asses sense but in a we sabotage their ability to get here for a 3rd and final time. Still a potential boogie man for future games even if just a lone reaper but the trilogies story of the reaper invasion would be complete while keeping the over powered space Cthulhu theme going. I think one of the big mistakes was that there was no consequence to the Reapers for travelling via FTL to the Milky Way. The Protheans closed the Citadel Relay which severely slowed their effort to end the Cycle, then we killed Sovereign to stop them using the Relay, and then stopped the Collectors who were building a Reaper to use to open the Citadel Relay... but their use of FTL didn't impact them at all. It should've been their achilles heel in some way, or at least provided us with an edge of some sort, but instead they just arrive quickly without it taking any toll on them. It even took less time to fly from the intergalactic void to the Milky Way than it did for the Collectors to make a Reaper. This was my line of work thought. Hope you're not reading my mind, you really don't want to enter that place! 😛
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inherit
3035
0
2,341
sil
1,551
Jan 28, 2017 10:19:12 GMT
January 2017
sil
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Post by sil on Dec 21, 2018 10:59:16 GMT
I think one of the big mistakes was that there was no consequence to the Reapers for travelling via FTL to the Milky Way. Even if traveling to the Milky Way would have some kind of consequence, all they would have to do is sit back to recharge their batteries before starting the harvest. They would not start the harvest in a weakened state. We don't know if they can just recharge that way, in fact, we know almost nothing of how their internal functions work, other than that Element Zero must be involved. It's entirely possible that they wouldn't have been able to just recharge like you're plugging in a mobile phone, the effort expended to recharge might only be possible during their hibernation. We just don't know, which is why it could've led to a weakened state. Is there anything that says that's why they were building a reaper? If that's the case, how long would it have been before the reaper was completed? Look how much of it was completed after about 2 years. By the time they have the thing built, the reapers would have arrived in the galaxy to start the harvest. It's logical. The Citadel Relay was the Reapers backdoor into the galaxy and the way to cut the head off of the snake of civilization by taking control of the Relay network. The Reapers only woke from their hibernation once their plan B failed, as they then had no other option but to travel to the Milky Way via FTL.
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inherit
♨ Retired
24
0
24,254
themikefest
14,808
August 2016
themikefest
21,655
15,426
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Post by themikefest on Dec 21, 2018 12:16:39 GMT
Going with the rewrite that it hurts them, while they could have the Reapers hide and recover they can easily have a story point for how you find them anyways. They invade a more primitive system dominating the locals, but someone escapes and makes it to Shepard to warn the galaxy, a scout stumbles across them, they chose the batarians because that is where they landed and they didn't have the energy to keep traveling, batarins get a warning out etc. I have no problem if they are weakened by traveling to the Milky Way. How much of a difference would it have made? They still win by numbers. As far as a rewrite, I've posted many things that could happen. The one that I would have happen is the player learns that Harbinger is key to stopping the harvest. Destroying Harbinger would stop the harvest. It's logical. The Citadel Relay was the Reapers backdoor into the galaxy and the way to cut the head off of the snake of civilization by taking control of the Relay network. The Reapers only woke from their hibernation once their plan B failed, as they then had no other option but to travel to the Milky Way via FTL. Nothing was gained by having the collectors build a reaper. As smart as the reapers are, or rather the catalyst is suppose to be, it would know the time it would take to build a reaper vs the time it would take for the reapers to reach the galaxy. If anything, they could have traveled to the galaxy when Sovereign first discovered the Citadel relay wasn't working.
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