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Post by alanc9 on Mar 18, 2019 15:04:46 GMT
Agree to disagree, I guess. My version of Origins did a really good job differentiating elf and dwarf characters throughout the adventure, so I am unsure why there are so many complaints about how it was handled. Would the detractors only be satisfied if say, the Dalish Elf protagonist never had to leave the forest, and only had adventures about ancient ruins, forest spirits, and conflicts with the local human village? Or if the dwarven protagonist spent an entire game only dealing with the politics or cultural oppression in Orzammar, without leaving to fight some Blight? Where is the bar being set for good application of race selection? I feel like minor nods and references strewn throughout our tale is good representation. I am also curious why people are still pointing to Inquisition to support their argument against race selection. We all know that feature was added late in development. The only Dragon Age game that can reasonably be referenced is Origins, and I feel that game was very successful in providing a varied racial experience. Then we played two very different Dragon Age: Origins game, for everything was frontloaded to the point of Ostagar and then very little seemed to be done for the rest of the game. Things like merchants calling Elves Knife Ears or refusing to do business with them because they are slaves. Civilians not being fearful of a Mage while there are stories of attacking children that can use magic. The reason why Inquisition is brought up is because frankly it would be the same now even if it was planned from the beginning because there is more to development now then there was with Origins and the animations and dialogue that would need to be done means it would be limited. Just like the Iron Bull romance was done by a person on their own spare time and after has the comment "never again". I cannot find the quote anymore, but I remember during Inquisitions development even BioWare admitted that the content based on the race of the player in Origins was frontloaded and that was why they were not going to have the race selection for Inquisition, but typical BioWare caved to the "fans" and shoehorned it into the game. This came up in one of the other threads on the board -- maybe the DA4 "tone" thread. For a lot of posters the DA:O origins structured their understanding of the game and the world in ways that other Bio games have failed to do. Frontloaded, sure, but the stuff you experience first can get frontloaded in the mind. The question isn't so much how DA:O actually works as how people feel about it. I'm with you here, but this is one of those subjective things.
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Post by ewigDunkelheit on Mar 18, 2019 15:12:35 GMT
Agree to disagree, I guess. My version of Origins did a really good job differentiating elf and dwarf characters throughout the adventure, so I am unsure why there are so many complaints about how it was handled. Would the detractors only be satisfied if say, the Dalish Elf protagonist never had to leave the forest, and only had adventures about ancient ruins, forest spirits, and conflicts with the local human village? Or if the dwarven protagonist spent an entire game only dealing with the politics or cultural oppression in Orzammar, without leaving to fight some Blight? Where is the bar being set for good application of race selection? I feel like minor nods and references strewn throughout our tale is good representation. I am also curious why people are still pointing to Inquisition to support their argument against race selection. We all know that feature was added late in development. The only Dragon Age game that can reasonably be referenced is Origins, and I feel that game was very successful in providing a varied racial experience. Then we played two very different Dragon Age: Origins game, for everything was frontloaded to the point of Ostagar and then very little seemed to be done for the rest of the game. Things like merchants calling Elves Knife Ears or refusing to do business with them because they are slaves. Civilians not being fearful of a Mage while there are stories of attacking children that can use magic. The reason why Inquisition is brought up is because frankly it would be the same now even if it was planned from the beginning because there is more to development now then there was with Origins and the animations and dialogue that would need to be done means it would be limited. Just like the Iron Bull romance was done by a person on their own spare time and after has the comment "never again". I cannot find the quote anymore, but I remember during Inquisitions development even BioWare admitted that the content based on the race of the player in Origins was frontloaded and that was why they were not going to have the race selection for Inquisition, but typical BioWare caved to the "fans" and shoehorned it into the game. That's why I mentioned that minor nods and references were suitable as representation. But the detail wasn't just front-loaded in the origin pieces. Your race choice was also heavy with content when returning to related zones. Dalish Elves had a lot of specific content with the other Dalish tribe, City Elves when returning to the alienage, and either of the dwarf choices when coming back to Orzammar. I play as a dwarf, and it was an incredible experience going back to Orzammar. My exiled noble was known by most npcs you could interact with, and quite a few of them had something to say about your past. When you go to the Diamond Quarter, every other cluster of npcs (the ones you cannot interact with) are discussing your return, for good, or ill. All the major characters, like Branka and Harrowmont and Bhelen, had unique interactions with the dwarf player character. Regarding the racism of elves, the player character was confronted very frequently by npcs reacting to said perceived status. So often, in fact, that I would call it pervasive. And while it's true that many of the extra dialogues are shared by both dwarves and elves, these bonus snippets help to add to the experience. Some examples are when you speak with the Chantry priest at Ostagar, and you can refuse her blessing due to being an elf or dwarf; or when given the option to pray for the fallen at Redcliffe, you can honor the Creators or the Stone; or when confronting Connor for the first time, and his vision is muddied, and Isolde has to tell him he's speaking with an elf or dwarf. To me, at least, all this added up to an enjoyable, potentially varied experience. Even if I choose to only play one specific character of one race over and over again. As to your other point, Inquisition would have always been the same in your estimation, exactly because Inquisition was written and designed around a human protagonist from the start. Saying that they were not going to have it in Inquisition does not mean that Bioware was never going to include the option ever again. A different Dragon Age game with Bioware planning and implementing race selection from inception wouldn't be operating under the same burden and outcome. I am not looking for race selection to drastically alter the story or dialogue. I just like that it can add a little extra flavor. P.S. I had never heard about John Epler's reaction to the process. I only ever heard that he went the extra mile, and fans propped him up as a programming hero for his amazing efforts on their behalf. If what you say is true, I am very disappointed that Mr. Epler would refuse to be a part of this roleplaying process ever again.
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Post by Vortex13 on Mar 18, 2019 15:17:38 GMT
I don't know about that. Elcor: evolved on a planet with five times the gravity of every other known species in the milky way. Their skeletal structure and muscles are all attuned to withstanding the pressures involved on Dekuna. Place them in a normal 1G environment and they are practically the hulk among puny mortals. Except the Hulk is bulletproof while elcor are not. Yeah but try shooting a rampaging elephant with anything other than a high powered rifle. That'd be about the same experience of trying to take down an Elcor with conventional fire arms. You might kill him before he closes the distance and literally rips you in half, or brings his own tank cannon weapon mount to bear on you, but I doubt it.
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Post by ahglock on Mar 18, 2019 16:31:44 GMT
Except the Hulk is bulletproof while elcor are not. Yeah but try shooting a rampaging elephant with anything other than a high powered rifle. That'd be about the same experience of trying to take down an Elcor with conventional fire arms. You might kill him before he closes the distance and literally rips you in half, or brings his own tank cannon weapon mount to bear on you, but I doubt it. ; The smallest pistol in mass effect is a high powered rifle from today. I guess theoretically due to their size they could potentially have much stronger shields but that is not detailed in the lore. But being big and strong in a universe of autofire railguns with magic recoil compensation isn’t a huge advantage.
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Post by Vortex13 on Mar 18, 2019 17:54:33 GMT
Yeah but try shooting a rampaging elephant with anything other than a high powered rifle. That'd be about the same experience of trying to take down an Elcor with conventional fire arms. You might kill him before he closes the distance and literally rips you in half, or brings his own tank cannon weapon mount to bear on you, but I doubt it. ; The smallest pistol in mass effect is a high powered rifle from today. I guess theoretically due to their size they could potentially have much stronger shields but that is not detailed in the lore. But being big and strong in a universe of autofire railguns with magic recoil compensation isn’t a huge advantage. True. But if a Krogan can, in-universe, take point blank shots from railgun variants of shotguns, assault rifles, as well as several sniper rifle rounds to the face, and keep charging you then saying an Elcor could withstand Mass Effect level small arms fire is not really a stretch.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Mar 18, 2019 18:18:44 GMT
The smallest pistol in mass effect is a high powered rifle from today. I guess theoretically due to their size they could potentially have much stronger shields but that is not detailed in the lore. But being big and strong in a universe of autofire railguns with magic recoil compensation isn’t a huge advantage. True. But if a Krogan can, in-universe, take point blank shots from railgun variants of shotguns, assault rifles, as well as several sniper rifle rounds to the face, and keep charging you then saying an Elcor could withstand Mass Effect level small arms fire is not really a stretch. Krogans also have "extra" organs. I believe they said multiple redundant organs. So if one of their hearts is destroyed they can still keep coming. Also I do not know much about the elcor but you can't even cut through a krogan's skin without a "molecular" blade (not sure if that's the right word). Their heads have that shell that adds armor to it as well. Plus while the krogan may come kill you because his blood rage is up because it's like super adrenaline on steroids but he still might die later on from his wounds. A krogan can survive radioactive fallout and come away like it is nothing. Plus krogan are relatively fast where as the elcor are like a three toed sloth. Basically it comes down to the krogan are the ideal frontline warriors where as the elcor are strong but need special guns to use and move slow. Krogan are unnaturally tough and strong and comparing any species besides reapers to them in terms of toughness and durability is like comparing a strawberry to steel.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by ahglock on Mar 18, 2019 18:44:14 GMT
The smallest pistol in mass effect is a high powered rifle from today. I guess theoretically due to their size they could potentially have much stronger shields but that is not detailed in the lore. But being big and strong in a universe of autofire railguns with magic recoil compensation isn’t a huge advantage. True. But if a Krogan can, in-universe, take point blank shots from railgun variants of shotguns, assault rifles, as well as several sniper rifle rounds to the face, and keep charging you then saying an Elcor could withstand Mass Effect level small arms fire is not really a stretch. Sure, they totally could. Their biology isn’t described entirely. Krogans are armored, have redundant organs and regenerate. Elcor may have similar biological advantages. We never fight them so a lot of details aren’t mentioned. Just being big and strong on its own wouldn’t be enough. But maybe the increased gravity also made their hide super effective armor, maybe they can carry vehicle level shields etc.
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Post by Vortex13 on Mar 18, 2019 19:23:40 GMT
True. But if a Krogan can, in-universe, take point blank shots from railgun variants of shotguns, assault rifles, as well as several sniper rifle rounds to the face, and keep charging you then saying an Elcor could withstand Mass Effect level small arms fire is not really a stretch. Krogans also have "extra" organs. I believe they said multiple redundant organs. So if one of their hearts is destroyed they can still keep coming. Also I do not know much about the elcor but you can't even cut through a krogan's skin without a "molecular" blade (not sure if that's the right word). Their heads have that shell that adds armor to it as well. Plus while the krogan may come kill you because his blood rage is up because it's like super adrenaline on steroids but he still might die later on from his wounds. A krogan can survive radioactive fallout and come away like it is nothing. Plus krogan are relatively fast where as the elcor are like a three toed sloth. Basically it comes down to the krogan are the ideal frontline warriors where as the elcor are strong but need special guns to use and move slow. Krogan are unnaturally tough and strong and comparing any species besides reapers to them in terms of toughness and durability is like comparing a strawberry to steel. Well we don't know anything about how fast the Elcor can move in combat situations to say that they are inefficient fighters. The fact that they evolved on a planet with five times the gravity of any other species in the galaxy (including the Krogan) means they would only have to flex their muscles in what for them would be a slight 'hop' or 'skip' and bound dozens of feet into the air when in 1G. Couple that with any decent form of combat training and you could have an Elcor capable of closing the distance to his targets far quicker, and from widely unpredictable angles, than any Krogan could. Plus, just because they tend to move slowly when we see them in-game, and they superficially look like sloths, doesn't mean Elcor are physically incapable of rapid movement when the need calls for it. The Krogan's only real advantage in large scale warfare was their birth rate. During the Rebellions the Asari and Salarians had no problems killing scores of Krogan warriors. It was their insurmountable birth rate and swarm tactics that made them such a threat. One-on-one an average Krogan is no more tough or strong than a typical Rachni Solider; and they can take full clips from Mass Effect level military weapons and keep charging their foes as well.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Mar 19, 2019 14:24:32 GMT
Krogans also have "extra" organs. I believe they said multiple redundant organs. So if one of their hearts is destroyed they can still keep coming. Also I do not know much about the elcor but you can't even cut through a krogan's skin without a "molecular" blade (not sure if that's the right word). Their heads have that shell that adds armor to it as well. Plus while the krogan may come kill you because his blood rage is up because it's like super adrenaline on steroids but he still might die later on from his wounds. A krogan can survive radioactive fallout and come away like it is nothing. Plus krogan are relatively fast where as the elcor are like a three toed sloth. Basically it comes down to the krogan are the ideal frontline warriors where as the elcor are strong but need special guns to use and move slow. Krogan are unnaturally tough and strong and comparing any species besides reapers to them in terms of toughness and durability is like comparing a strawberry to steel. Well we don't know anything about how fast the Elcor can move in combat situations to say that they are inefficient fighters. The fact that they evolved on a planet with five times the gravity of any other species in the galaxy (including the Krogan) means they would only have to flex their muscles in what for them would be a slight 'hop' or 'skip' and bound dozens of feet into the air when in 1G. Couple that with any decent form of combat training and you could have an Elcor capable of closing the distance to his targets far quicker, and from widely unpredictable angles, than any Krogan could. Plus, just because they tend to move slowly when we see them in-game, and they superficially look like sloths, doesn't mean Elcor are physically incapable of rapid movement when the need calls for it. The Krogan's only real advantage in large scale warfare was their birth rate. During the Rebellions the Asari and Salarians had no problems killing scores of Krogan warriors. It was their insurmountable birth rate and swarm tactics that made them such a threat. One-on-one an average Krogan is no more tough or strong than a typical Rachni Solider; and they can take full clips from Mass Effect level military weapons and keep charging their foes as well. Well I am just saying that based on what we know of the elcor they aren't exactly great soldiers. If they give us new information on the elcor I will reconsider but from what we know there is nothing to say they could be anything more then walking tanks. Also the asari and the salarians were losing to the krogan. The krogan are incredibly resistant to radiation since they live in a nuclear wasteland and they are very resistant against poison and toxins. Then they are super strong,capable of taking massive amounts of damage,and having back up organs,they can heal incredibly amounts of damage and fast. They are the ultimate infantry soldiers. However the salarians and asari had better intelligence and ships. But on foot the only real race they could equal the average krogan was a very strong asari commando and asari commando's are trained for decades or even centuries where as a krogan was just born strong. So a century of service and training at least..or just being born and living to maturity. Which is the better soldier?
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Post by Vortex13 on Mar 19, 2019 18:15:23 GMT
Well we don't know anything about how fast the Elcor can move in combat situations to say that they are inefficient fighters. The fact that they evolved on a planet with five times the gravity of any other species in the galaxy (including the Krogan) means they would only have to flex their muscles in what for them would be a slight 'hop' or 'skip' and bound dozens of feet into the air when in 1G. Couple that with any decent form of combat training and you could have an Elcor capable of closing the distance to his targets far quicker, and from widely unpredictable angles, than any Krogan could. Plus, just because they tend to move slowly when we see them in-game, and they superficially look like sloths, doesn't mean Elcor are physically incapable of rapid movement when the need calls for it. The Krogan's only real advantage in large scale warfare was their birth rate. During the Rebellions the Asari and Salarians had no problems killing scores of Krogan warriors. It was their insurmountable birth rate and swarm tactics that made them such a threat. One-on-one an average Krogan is no more tough or strong than a typical Rachni Solider; and they can take full clips from Mass Effect level military weapons and keep charging their foes as well. Well I am just saying that based on what we know of the elcor they aren't exactly great soldiers. If they give us new information on the elcor I will reconsider but from what we know there is nothing to say they could be anything more then walking tanks. Also the asari and the salarians were losing to the krogan. The krogan are incredibly resistant to radiation since they live in a nuclear wasteland and they are very resistant against poison and toxins. Then they are super strong,capable of taking massive amounts of damage,and having back up organs,they can heal incredibly amounts of damage and fast. They are the ultimate infantry soldiers. However the salarians and asari had better intelligence and ships. But on foot the only real race they could equal the average krogan was a very strong asari commando and asari commando's are trained for decades or even centuries where as a krogan was just born strong. So a century of service and training at least..or just being born and living to maturity. Which is the better soldier? Well if we're going to talk about the best combat capable species in the Milky Way then my money's on the Rachni over the Krogan any day of the week. Natural weapons and armor on par with modern day military technology; now imagine all that with manufactured shields and armor on top of it. Durability surpassing even that of the Krogan; they can survive, even thrive, on radioactive dustballs. Even planets that would kill an unprotected Krogan Battlemaster in seconds Rachni can skitter around naked on. Literally born combat ready; as soon as they hatch they are able to stand toe to claw with any conventional force in the galaxy, and their birth rate is extremely fast, while also not be dependent on having multiple viable females. A single queen can jump start their entire species from scratch. A built-in organic quantum engagement network allowing for instantaneous communications between forces that exists outside of traditional supply lines. The genetic memory of previous generations to draw inspiration and insight from. Natural engineering skills; enough so that newly hatched Rachni could help with the Crucible along side the best and brightest the galaxy had to offer. Near to total immunity to the effects of indoctrination outside of direct physical implants Etc. The Rachni have survived two attempted genocides of their species as well as survived a Reaper harvest cycle. The Krogan have nothing on them (IMO). But that is getting considerably off topic here. In an attempt to draw the discussion back to the OP, I would love to see the Rachni made playable in future Mass Effect multiplayer modes. Keep the single player portion human only; and focus on the narrative/world building; but in multiplayer go wild. Give us Elcor Sentinals, Rachni Brood Warriors, Krogan Battlemasters and Hanar Infiltrators, etc. Make them all unique from each other, not only in terms of size and animations sets, but also in gameplay mechanics. Playing as a Slarian should feel like a totally different experience than playing as Krogan or Rachni; not just be some lazy texture swap on a human animation skeleton.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Mar 20, 2019 13:32:13 GMT
Well I am just saying that based on what we know of the elcor they aren't exactly great soldiers. If they give us new information on the elcor I will reconsider but from what we know there is nothing to say they could be anything more then walking tanks. Also the asari and the salarians were losing to the krogan. The krogan are incredibly resistant to radiation since they live in a nuclear wasteland and they are very resistant against poison and toxins. Then they are super strong,capable of taking massive amounts of damage,and having back up organs,they can heal incredibly amounts of damage and fast. They are the ultimate infantry soldiers. However the salarians and asari had better intelligence and ships. But on foot the only real race they could equal the average krogan was a very strong asari commando and asari commando's are trained for decades or even centuries where as a krogan was just born strong. So a century of service and training at least..or just being born and living to maturity. Which is the better soldier?Well if we're going to talk about the best combat capable species in the Milky Way then my money's on the Rachni over the Krogan any day of the week. Natural weapons and armor on par with modern day military technology; now imagine all that with manufactured shields and armor on top of it. Durability surpassing even that of the Krogan; they can survive, even thrive, on radioactive dustballs. Even planets that would kill an unprotected Krogan Battlemaster in seconds Rachni can skitter around naked on. Literally born combat ready; as soon as they hatch they are able to stand toe to claw with any conventional force in the galaxy, and their birth rate is extremely fast, while also not be dependent on having multiple viable females. A single queen can jump start their entire species from scratch. A built-in organic quantum engagement network allowing for instantaneous communications between forces that exists outside of traditional supply lines. The genetic memory of previous generations to draw inspiration and insight from. Natural engineering skills; enough so that newly hatched Rachni could help with the Crucible along side the best and brightest the galaxy had to offer. Near to total immunity to the effects of indoctrination outside of direct physical implants Etc. The Rachni have survived two attempted genocides of their species as well as survived a Reaper harvest cycle. The Krogan have nothing on them (IMO). But that is getting considerably off topic here. In an attempt to draw the discussion back to the OP, I would love to see the Rachni made playable in future Mass Effect multiplayer modes. Keep the single player portion human only; and focus on the narrative/world building; but in multiplayer go wild. Give us Elcor Sentinals, Rachni Brood Warriors, Krogan Battlemasters and Hanar Infiltrators, etc. Make them all unique from each other, not only in terms of size and animations sets, but also in gameplay mechanics. Playing as a Slarian should feel like a totally different experience than playing as Krogan or Rachni; not just be some lazy texture swap on a human animation skeleton. Yes but they are very different socially then other species since they have a hive mind rather then a bunch of individuals. Yes they are the ultimate warriors but they are not "individuals" And I was just talking about lore rather then multiplayer since noone would think a volus would be a good infantry fighter. But i they want to put an elcor in multiplayer that would be fine. I was just going by lore
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Post by Vortex13 on Mar 21, 2019 14:47:04 GMT
Well if we're going to talk about the best combat capable species in the Milky Way then my money's on the Rachni over the Krogan any day of the week. Natural weapons and armor on par with modern day military technology; now imagine all that with manufactured shields and armor on top of it. Durability surpassing even that of the Krogan; they can survive, even thrive, on radioactive dustballs. Even planets that would kill an unprotected Krogan Battlemaster in seconds Rachni can skitter around naked on. Literally born combat ready; as soon as they hatch they are able to stand toe to claw with any conventional force in the galaxy, and their birth rate is extremely fast, while also not be dependent on having multiple viable females. A single queen can jump start their entire species from scratch. A built-in organic quantum engagement network allowing for instantaneous communications between forces that exists outside of traditional supply lines. The genetic memory of previous generations to draw inspiration and insight from. Natural engineering skills; enough so that newly hatched Rachni could help with the Crucible along side the best and brightest the galaxy had to offer. Near to total immunity to the effects of indoctrination outside of direct physical implants Etc. The Rachni have survived two attempted genocides of their species as well as survived a Reaper harvest cycle. The Krogan have nothing on them (IMO). Yes but they are very different socially then other species since they have a hive mind rather then a bunch of individuals. Yes they are the ultimate warriors but they are not "individuals" And I was just talking about lore rather then multiplayer since noone would think a volus would be a good infantry fighter. But i they want to put an elcor in multiplayer that would be fine. I was just going by lore Actually, the Rachni aren't a hive mind. Wall of text incoming: A hive mind implies that all parts constitute a whole and that all said parts are both equally important as well as meaningless to the continuation of the hive mind's collective will. The Tyranids of Warhammer 40K fame are a hive mind; all creatures subservient to the needs of the gestalt's unending hunger for more biomass. The Rachni, on the other hand, are a caste-based hive-like society but they still have a manner of individuality to each of the aforementioned castes. The queen has the most autonomy, of course, but even the soldiers and lowly worker drones have a degree of personality to them that makes them quite removed from "mindless organic robot". Consider how the queen mentions singing to her children, at how the lack of her soothing voice effectively stunted their social development and drove them insane. That is a far cry from something like a hive mind; since if they were just a collective consciousness then "social development" wouldn't need to be considered for the hive's operation. Also consider how the Rachni escaped captivity from both Cerberus as well as Peak 15 on Noveria, despite being 'insane' while doing it. Their captors assumed the space bugs were mindless animals outside of their queen's influence and things didn't turn out well for them. Now Rachni society is not directly comparable to a human-like species, of course, but they are also not akin to the likes of the Geth or Reapers either. Individuals exist for the Rachni, its just that that the service to the hive/colony/nest, and deference to the queen's directives, has greater priority over individualism. It's more hyper realized communism than a hive mind. Just like how the Geth (pre-ME 3) are a hyper conceptualization of a pure democracy; being swarm AIs that have to reach consensus on everything. Even if we are going with the assumption that the Rachni don't have an equatable level of individualism compared to the likes of the Krogan, I don't see how that fact makes them less 'ultimate warriors'. If anything, such staunch individuality is a detriment to the Krogan in any sort of large-scale combat. Unruly Krogan ranks, their formations uneven because of overeager individuals rushing ahead to "get the glory for the first kill", in-fighting happening because of Blood Rage, or even separate clans sabotaging the others because of petty rivalries, etc. Meanwhile the Rachni formations are orderly, their ranks exercising perfect precision and each element of the combat force operating in sync with the others. Not because of being a hive mind, but because of the nature of their caste-based society allows them to operate free of distractions; the fact that their biological quantum entanglement network serves to give them all an instantaneous snapshot of what's going on around the battlefield is just icing on the cake. Going down a step even further, I don't think the Krogan are even all that they're cracked up to be on a one-on-one basis compared to your average Rachni soldier. Consider how Grunt, the gene-tailored Krogan super soldier, was almost killed while fighting Ravengers in ME 3. Ravengers. Rachni husks, who's deadly claws and talons have been removed and replaced with ineffectual long-range weaponry, ill suited for the close quarters combat taking place in the warrens, still managed to nearly kill this pure blooded tank-borne Krogan. Now imagine if those were actual Rachni. Grunt would have been eviscerated before he was halfway finished screaming "I AM KROGAN!"
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Post by garrusfan1 on Mar 21, 2019 18:55:52 GMT
Yes but they are very different socially then other species since they have a hive mind rather then a bunch of individuals. Yes they are the ultimate warriors but they are not "individuals" And I was just talking about lore rather then multiplayer since noone would think a volus would be a good infantry fighter. But i they want to put an elcor in multiplayer that would be fine. I was just going by lore Actually, the Rachni aren't a hive mind. Wall of text incoming: A hive mind implies that all parts constitute a whole and that all said parts are both equally important as well as meaningless to the continuation of the hive mind's collective will. The Tyranids of Warhammer 40K fame are a hive mind; all creatures subservient to the needs of the gestalt's unending hunger for more biomass. The Rachni, on the other hand, are a caste-based hive-like society but they still have a manner of individuality to each of the aforementioned castes. The queen has the most autonomy, of course, but even the soldiers and lowly worker drones have a degree of personality to them that makes them quite removed from "mindless organic robot". Consider how the queen mentions singing to her children, at how the lack of her soothing voice effectively stunted their social development and drove them insane. That is a far cry from something like a hive mind; since if they were just a collective consciousness then "social development" wouldn't need to be considered for the hive's operation. Also consider how the Rachni escaped captivity from both Cerberus as well as Peak 15 on Noveria, despite being 'insane' while doing it. Their captors assumed the space bugs were mindless animals outside of their queen's influence and things didn't turn out well for them. Now Rachni society is not directly comparable to a human-like species, of course, but they are also not akin to the likes of the Geth or Reapers either. Individuals exist for the Rachni, its just that that the service to the hive/colony/nest, and deference to the queen's directives, has greater priority over individualism. It's more hyper realized communism than a hive mind. Just like how the Geth (pre-ME 3) are a hyper conceptualization of a pure democracy; being swarm AIs that have to reach consensus on everything. Even if we are going with the assumption that the Rachni don't have an equatable level of individualism compared to the likes of the Krogan, I don't see how that fact makes them less 'ultimate warriors'. If anything, such staunch individuality is a detriment to the Krogan in any sort of large-scale combat. Unruly Krogan ranks, their formations uneven because of overeager individuals rushing ahead to "get the glory for the first kill", in-fighting happening because of Blood Rage, or even separate clans sabotaging the others because of petty rivalries, etc. Meanwhile the Rachni formations are orderly, their ranks exercising perfect precision and each element of the combat force operating in sync with the others. Not because of being a hive mind, but because of the nature of their caste-based society allows them to operate free of distractions; the fact that their biological quantum entanglement network serves to give them all an instantaneous snapshot of what's going on around the battlefield is just icing on the cake. Going down a step even further, I don't think the Krogan are even all that they're cracked up to be on a one-on-one basis compared to your average Rachni soldier. Consider how Grunt, the gene-tailored Krogan super soldier, was almost killed while fighting Ravengers in ME 3. Ravengers. Rachni husks, who's deadly claws and talons have been removed and replaced with ineffectual long-range weaponry, ill suited for the close quarters combat taking place in the warrens, still managed to nearly kill this pure blooded tank-borne Krogan. Now imagine if those were actual Rachni. Grunt would have been eviscerated before he was halfway finished screaming "I AM KROGAN!" seriously? your gonna say grunt couldn't take a rachni soldier? He killed several ravagers who are harder to kill then regular rachni. Also a gun beats claws every time. The artillery shell that the ravagers fired would kill you at point black range or a hundred yards. The krogan can use weapons like shotguns and such and the rachni could not. That puts the rachni at a disadvantage. And when I said that the rachni weren't "individuals" I meant it's harder to compare them to other things.
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Post by Vortex13 on Mar 21, 2019 19:23:44 GMT
seriously? your gonna say grunt couldn't take a rachni soldier? He killed several ravagers who are harder to kill then regular rachni. Also a gun beats claws every time. The artillery shell that the ravagers fired would kill you at point black range or a hundred yards. The krogan can use weapons like shotguns and such and the rachni could not. That puts the rachni at a disadvantage. And when I said that the rachni weren't "individuals" I meant it's harder to compare them to other things. On his own, with no gun or protective clothing? Grunt would be torn to shreds. This is of course assuming one is wanting a fair fight. If you go by what we see in the games, the Rachni are naked and unarmed versus gun wielding opponents wearing heavy armor and they still are a credible threat. Give the Rachni a gun and personal armor/shields of their own and its all over. They actually can use those things; they built their own cities and space ships after all; its just that every time we see one in-game is after it is escaping captivity and having to literally start from scratch. The fact that a completely naked, just-hatched-out-of-the-shell Rachni soldier can stand up to personnel equipped with modern day weapons and armor is a testament to how hardy they are. I'm sure, given the right set of circumstances, that Grunt might be able to etch out a victory in hand-to-claw combat with one Rachni soldier but there is no way he's wading into a swarm of three or four of them and emerging alive like he did with the Ravengers. Ravengers, which are the equivalent of an armless, toothless zombie considering how slow and predictable they are, still managed to nearly kill him. So yes, an actual Rachni soldier, let alone a Brood Warrior, would murder him. During the Rachni Wars it was the combined efforts of Asari, Salarians and the Krogan that was able to push them back. The overwhelming hordes of Krogan warriors didn't single handedly win the war, they were the tipping point, but it was the efforts of all three species working in tandem to actually succeed.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 21, 2019 21:00:25 GMT
On his own, with no gun or protective clothing? Grunt would be torn to shreds. Didn't he have a shotgun?
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Post by Vortex13 on Mar 21, 2019 21:06:12 GMT
On his own, with no gun or protective clothing? Grunt would be torn to shreds. Didn't he have a shotgun? He did and he almost died fighting armless zombies. Actual Rachni? He wouldn’t stand a chance running into a group of three or four like he did.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by ahglock on Mar 21, 2019 21:12:30 GMT
Didn't he have a shotgun? He did and he almost died fighting armless zombies. Actual Rachni? He wouldn’t stand a chance running into a group of three or four like he did. Too be fair they are arm less zombies with cyber auto-cannons strapped to their head.
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Post by Vortex13 on Mar 22, 2019 0:59:12 GMT
He did and he almost died fighting armless zombies. Actual Rachni? He wouldn’t stand a chance running into a group of three or four like he did. Too be fair they are arm less zombies with cyber auto-cannons strapped to their head. None of which actually helped, and indeed probably hindered their combat capabilities, in that cut scene. If they still had their claws and talons the outcome would have been drastically different.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: ShinobiKillfist
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Post by ahglock on Mar 22, 2019 1:11:51 GMT
Too be fair they are arm less zombies with cyber auto-cannons strapped to their head. None of which actually helped, and indeed probably hindered their combat capabilities, in that cut scene. If they still had their claws and talons the outcome would have been drastically different. What helped is cut scenes are on casual difficulty. On any real difficulty he'd be dead because of the cannons, though if he was facing claws he would have probably been okay. They aren't exactly super fast, its easy to evade them while murdering them with shotguns.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 22, 2019 1:22:54 GMT
Too be fair they are arm less zombies with cyber auto-cannons strapped to their head. None of which actually helped, and indeed probably hindered their combat capabilities, in that cut scene. If they still had their claws and talons the outcome would have been drastically different. Wait, are you seriously suggesting that the Reapers would make a husk version of a species that is less effective than their pre-Husk state?
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Post by Sifr on Mar 22, 2019 2:00:57 GMT
As long as I can play as one of the batarians who invaded Mindoir and murdered Shepard's family and friends. Then you have to overcome that background to become Hero of the Galaxy. I'd enjoy being able to play a Batarian with ME1 style background options.
Were we born in the Hegemony or outside of it on Omega? Were we a soldier/slaver working for the Hegemony or an independent mercenary? Did we take part in Mindoir, Elysium, Terra Nova or Torfan? Maybe we were on Omega during the plague or witnessed the destruction of the Bahak system? Would be cool to play a Batarian with some minor ties to either Shepard or the events of the trilogy.
("Why do Batarians have four eyes? Two to see where they're going... and two to watch for Shepard")
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Post by Vortex13 on Mar 22, 2019 2:15:16 GMT
None of which actually helped, and indeed probably hindered their combat capabilities, in that cut scene. If they still had their claws and talons the outcome would have been drastically different. Wait, are you seriously suggesting that the Reapers would make a husk version of a species that is less effective than their pre-Husk state? Yeah, the vast majority of reaper husks are wholly inefficient compared to the base species. Look at humans, the only species “worthy of ascension” and yet we have zombies for husks. Batarians have a human crafted into their arms for ‘reasons’ and a brute is specially designed to force two wholly incompatible species’ biomass to fuse together for shock value. Only the Bannshe is any real “improvement” on a baseline host. The major purpose of husks husks is more for demoralization rather than effectiveness. As if the Reapers need any help stomping species being harvested anyways.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 22, 2019 3:10:41 GMT
Wait, are you seriously suggesting that the Reapers would make a husk version of a species that is less effective than their pre-Husk state? Yeah, the vast majority of reaper husks are wholly inefficient compared to the base species. Look at humans, the only species “worthy of ascension” and yet we have zombies for husks. Batarians have a human crafted into their arms for ‘reasons’ and a brute is specially designed to force two wholly incompatible species’ biomass to fuse together for shock value. Only the Bannshe is any real “improvement” on a baseline host. The major purpose of husks husks is more for demoralization rather than effectiveness. As if the Reapers need any help stomping species being harvested anyways. Considering the human body is utterly useless in combat by itself and the vast majority of people not having training in martial arts or weapons use I’d say the Husk is quite an improvement. Certainly seems to be able to rip through human defenses when not having the protagonist. Then of course there are the variations such as the explosive Abominations, walking artillery Scions, and the Uber powerful Praetorians, etc.
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 22, 2019 14:40:30 GMT
Candidly, I do not think I came prepared for this. I don't know about that. Elcor: evolved on a planet with five times the gravity of every other known species in the milky way. Their skeletal structure and muscles are all attuned to withstanding the pressures involved on Dekuna. Place them in a normal 1G environment and they are practically the hulk among puny mortals. That’s if they can properly cope with the thinner atmosphere and subsequent loss of muscle tissue after prolonged exposure to 1/5th their normal gravity.
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 22, 2019 14:43:28 GMT
Yeah, the vast majority of reaper husks are wholly inefficient compared to the base species. Look at humans, the only species “worthy of ascension” and yet we have zombies for husks. Batarians have a human crafted into their arms for ‘reasons’ and a brute is specially designed to force two wholly incompatible species’ biomass to fuse together for shock value. Only the Bannshe is any real “improvement” on a baseline host. The major purpose of husks husks is more for demoralization rather than effectiveness. As if the Reapers need any help stomping species being harvested anyways. Considering the human body is utterly useless in combat by itself and the vast majority of people not having training in martial arts or weapons use I’d say the Husk is quite an improvement. Certainly seems to be able to rip through human defenses when not having the protagonist. Then of course there are the variations such as the explosive Abominations, walking artillery Scions, and the Uber powerful Praetorians, etc. Husks got nerfed since ME1. They used to send an electric blast like zombie pikachus.
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