The Loyal Nub
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Post by The Loyal Nub on Mar 25, 2024 13:56:34 GMT
Been playing Larian made games for over ten years now. They do not do DLCs. Never have. Not once nor do they ever promise them. So the anger at them would be coming from those new fans who are simply unfamiliar with their policy on DLCs.
Now what they do generally do is provide mod support which tends to be good enough that people can make their own games. I expect that support to come for BG3.
Very likely we will get Divinity Original Sin 3 at some point and Sven has even said it is coming. As an old fan I expect it and desire it. BG4 can be made by plenty of other companies. Maybe OwlCat will want to have a go at it? Who knows. It's five or six years away anyway if it ever happens.
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Post by eaglepursuit on Mar 25, 2024 14:05:58 GMT
Patrick Weekes @trickweekes.bsky.socialWeekend work is never fun, but getting to write a comment to the voice actor that just says, "Read him for filth," goes a long way to make up for it. Sounds crunchy in Edmonton
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Sandetiger
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Post by Sandetiger on Mar 25, 2024 15:26:47 GMT
Which is to say that Andromeda was a fine game. Perfectly playable with a great cast and a great story. But because it didn't ratchet up the stakes from the trilogy people didn't like it. I moderate on a discord server for Mass Effect, and one of the things that has really struck me, 7+ years out from MEA's release is that a lot of people are playing it for the first time and actually really enjoying it. It's a flawed game - many games are - but coming into the game without the furor of the pre-release hype-cycle and immediate post-release fandom wank seems to have softened the expectations and given people a little more grace. I'm watching someone play it for the first time literally right now, and it's endearing to see him finding moments of charm and thoughtful design the same way I did. Again, flawed game, but I can't help but be a little sad that it's undercooked. It's the same thing with DA2, I think. I remember the fandom discourse around it was vicious when it came out, especially given the expectations with DA:O, but now I see in Dragon Age fandom spaces more and more love for the game, and more people proclaiming that it's their favorite Dragon Age game. Mark Darrah actually had a really interesting video about this kind of subject recently, which he dubbed The Halo Effect:
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Post by githcheater on Mar 25, 2024 16:53:22 GMT
... Because its a well repeated story. Both within the game industry and even throughout entertainment in general. Fans have very narrow expectations and when those aren't met...when game comparnies constantly aren't going 'bigger and better' then gamers tend to turn on them. Or just deliver a product which is somehow sub optimal. Seen it with BioWare, CDPR, and Bethesda...at least. Though in CDPRs case maybe they have managed to salvage their reputation. Which is to say that Andromeda was a fine game. Perfectly playable with a great cast and a great story. But because it didn't ratchet up the stakes from the trilogy people didn't like it. ... As for fanbases turning on developers, with CDPR's Cyberpunk 2077 (if that's what you're referring to), people didn't turn on them because the game didn't go hard or big enough, they did it because the game was riddled with bugs and unplayable after years of overpromises and reported massive crunch for the developers. People turned on Bethesta for Fallout 76 because it was an empty time sync with barely anything to do at launch. The only game in your list I agree got a worse reception than it deserved is MEA. However, it did get its reception as a result of the same trend the previous games did - overpromises they couldn't deliver on. And as we can see from both non-Bioware games mentioned here, work on improving them has changed the public's perception. CP2077 is (reportedly, because I haven't played it myself) great now and so is FO76. There's also examples of disastrous launches for live services that were righted by putting in the work to make them actually good games that people want to play with Final Fantasy XIV, Destiny 2, and the new state of World of Warcraft. MEA could have been a CP2077 if it got more than 6 months post-launch support and Anthem could have been a Destiny 2. ... MEA (facial expression meme) and Anthem were panned because they were buggy unbaked messes upon release, presumably due to EA's need for quarterly results. Neither MEA nor Anthem could recover (unlike Cyberpunk) from their premature release fiascos.
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Post by ClarkKent on Mar 25, 2024 20:18:32 GMT
An important thing to consider with MEA, DA2, or any particularly derided game is that a lot of people are going to be buying these games for like a dollar, or two, on a sale.
It's not really a suprise that people can find value in these games now when the investment is so low.
Dragon Age 2 is good though.
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Post by themikefest on Mar 25, 2024 22:46:45 GMT
An important thing to consider with MEA, DA2, or any particularly derided game is that a lot of people are going to be buying these games for like a dollar, or two, on a sale. It's not really a suprise that people can find value in these games now when the investment is so low. Dragon Age 2 is good though. I agree, at least for MEA. The only reason why I got it, at least for my computer, it came in a bundle with DAI. I believe the bundle was $12. With DA2, I liked. Don't recall what I paid.
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Post by eaglepursuit on Mar 25, 2024 23:38:34 GMT
I bought DA2 for full price on Steam, and eventually they gave me ME2 for free with it.
The disparity between the two is such that I like to think I bought ME2 by accident and got DA2 for free.
Please note that I don't hate DA2. I like several things about it. But my complaints outweigh what I like.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 26, 2024 0:50:30 GMT
Which is to say that Andromeda was a fine game. Perfectly playable with a great cast and a great story. But because it didn't ratchet up the stakes from the trilogy people didn't like it. I moderate on a discord server for Mass Effect, and one of the things that has really struck me, 7+ years out from MEA's release is that a lot of people are playing it for the first time and actually really enjoying it. It's a flawed game - many games are - but coming into the game without the furor of the pre-release hype-cycle and immediate post-release fandom wank seems to have softened the expectations and given people a little more grace. I'm watching someone play it for the first time literally right now, and it's endearing to see him finding moments of charm and thoughtful design the same way I did. Again, flawed game, but I can't help but be a little sad that it's undercooked. It's the same thing with DA2, I think. I remember the fandom discourse around it was vicious when it came out, especially given the expectations with DA:O, but now I see in Dragon Age fandom spaces more and more love for the game, and more people proclaiming that it's their favorite Dragon Age game. Mark Darrah actually had a really interesting video about this kind of subject recently, which he dubbed The Halo Effect: Not sure I can say I am immune to either effect really but sometimes I seem to have the opposite effect where things I expect end up having the opposite impression of. My first impressions of DAO and DA 2 and the story about how I got introduced to the franchise is one of the more indictive of that. I had heard great things about Origins,bad things about 2, so was hesitant to pick them both up...ended up enjoying 2 more then Origins. A lot more really. And both were in a similar situation where they'd been out for awhile. Otherwise I do tend to agree with you. Experienced late adopters and late adopters tend to be some of my more favorite perspective when talking to people when they have different opinions on certain issues or don't take as much umbrage at things. Namely the ME 3 ending and Andromeda are things I have heard of. ... As for fanbases turning on developers, with CDPR's Cyberpunk 2077 (if that's what you're referring to), people didn't turn on them because the game didn't go hard or big enough, they did it because the game was riddled with bugs and unplayable after years of overpromises and reported massive crunch for the developers. People turned on Bethesta for Fallout 76 because it was an empty time sync with barely anything to do at launch. The only game in your list I agree got a worse reception than it deserved is MEA. However, it did get its reception as a result of the same trend the previous games did - overpromises they couldn't deliver on. And as we can see from both non-Bioware games mentioned here, work on improving them has changed the public's perception. CP2077 is (reportedly, because I haven't played it myself) great now and so is FO76. There's also examples of disastrous launches for live services that were righted by putting in the work to make them actually good games that people want to play with Final Fantasy XIV, Destiny 2, and the new state of World of Warcraft. MEA could have been a CP2077 if it got more than 6 months post-launch support and Anthem could have been a Destiny 2. ... MEA (facial expression meme) and Anthem were panned because they were buggy unbaked messes upon release, presumably due to EA's need for quarterly results. Neither MEA nor Anthem could recover (unlike Cyberpunk) from their premature release fiascos. And yet gamers have tended to pretty universally told me that caring about graphics is a pretty shallow thing and someone should be able to enjoy a game no matter what. I tend to agree with that perspective and the graphics in Andromeda were certainly never bad enough to not convey meaning. Sure they were improved over the course of the game's patching phase...but then that is one of the more interesting aspects of video games where these games can be improved via patching and fans generally accept this as being a price of admission. Unbaked may have a different connotation then a lot of the other things I have heard directed at Andromeda but it certainly was a yummy cookie. Meanwhile on the bug front Andromeda certainly was buggy at launch...and stayed buggy throughout...but several other critically acclaimed games I've had way worse bug problems in my time playing them, way worse known bugs, and yet they are beloved within the industry. And while I was a late adopter to Anthem so I can't comment on the state of launch even then by the time I got to Anthem it was virtually bug free, at least in terms of major bugs, and these critically acclaimed games stayed buggy all the way through their entire entire life time.
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Post by githcheater on Mar 26, 2024 1:22:45 GMT
MEA would have done just fine if it was "unmemeable" ... but the game was released on March 21st, just days before the end of EA's fiscal year.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 26, 2024 1:25:27 GMT
MEA would have done just fine if it was "unmemeable" ... but the game was released on March 21st, just days before the end of EA's fiscal year. An impossible standard since all games are memeable.
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Post by githcheater on Mar 26, 2024 1:26:34 GMT
"Then the GIFs started. EA put Mass Effect: Andromeda out early for EA Access users on March 16, five days before the game came out, which led to a weekend full of memes, anger, and nasty harassment as players shared images and gifs of the game’s many glitches. Combine that with the fact that three of the other games released in March 2017 turned out to be all-time classics (Zelda: Breath of the Wild, Horizon: Zero Dawn, and Nier: Automata) and you’ve got a recipe for low review scores."
kotaku.com/the-story-behind-mass-effect-andromedas-troubled-five-1795886428
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Post by Sartoz on Mar 26, 2024 7:43:20 GMT
"Then the GIFs started. EA put Mass Effect: Andromeda out early for EA Access users on March 16, five days before the game came out, which led to a weekend full of memes, anger, and nasty harassment as players shared images and gifs of the game’s many glitches. Combine that with the fact that three of the other games released in March 2017 turned out to be all-time classics (Zelda: Breath of the Wild, Horizon: Zero Dawn, and Nier: Automata) and you’ve got a recipe for low review scores." kotaku.com/the-story-behind-mass-effect-andromedas-troubled-five-1795886428
Hm... So, a short early access time before game launch is a no-no. Makes sense.
A better approach, imo, is a one month+ early access with the studio asking the "early adopters" to help them find bugs. This tempers players' expectations before the official launch of the game.
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Post by fairdragon on Mar 26, 2024 7:48:06 GMT
Very likely we will get Divinity Original Sin 3 at some point and Sven has even said it is coming. As an old fan I expect it and desire it. BG4 can be made by plenty of other companies. Maybe OwlCat will want to have a go at it? Who knows. It's five or six years away anyway if it ever happens. I agree with if it ever happens. The reason why i see it that way, is because of the expectations of the fans.
Everything less than what BG3 was, will get a lot of hate. I hope Owlcat let it be and work on other IPs. Maybe in 10 years or so someone can pick it up without getting hate.
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The Loyal Nub
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Post by The Loyal Nub on Mar 26, 2024 13:39:44 GMT
Very likely we will get Divinity Original Sin 3 at some point and Sven has even said it is coming. As an old fan I expect it and desire it. BG4 can be made by plenty of other companies. Maybe OwlCat will want to have a go at it? Who knows. It's five or six years away anyway if it ever happens. I agree with if it ever happens. The reason why i see it that way, is because of the expectations of the fans.
Everything less than what BG3 was, will get a lot of hate. I hope Owlcat let it be and work on other IPs. Maybe in 10 years or so someone can pick it up without getting hate.
I think that's likely. No one is gonna want to step into Larian's shoes right now. There will be a gap before someone decides to make a new game.
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Post by The Loyal Nub on Mar 26, 2024 13:42:52 GMT
"Then the GIFs started. EA put Mass Effect: Andromeda out early for EA Access users on March 16, five days before the game came out, which led to a weekend full of memes, anger, and nasty harassment as players shared images and gifs of the game’s many glitches. Combine that with the fact that three of the other games released in March 2017 turned out to be all-time classics (Zelda: Breath of the Wild, Horizon: Zero Dawn, and Nier: Automata) and you’ve got a recipe for low review scores." kotaku.com/the-story-behind-mass-effect-andromedas-troubled-five-1795886428
Hm... So, a short early access time before game launch is a no-no. Makes sense.
A better approach, imo, is a one month+ early access with the studio asking the "early adopters" to help them find bugs. This tempers players' expectations before the official launch of the game.
Hmm that could go either way. I mean you'd think that could buy some good-will but if the game is north of $60 you will get a crowd saying "charging me out the wazoo to do their play-testing for them!!"
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Post by eaglepursuit on Mar 26, 2024 13:57:49 GMT
Hm... So, a short early access time before game launch is a no-no. Makes sense.
A better approach, imo, is a one month+ early access with the studio asking the "early adopters" to help them find bugs. This tempers players' expectations before the official launch of the game.
Hmm that could go either way. I mean you'd think that could buy some good-will but if the game is north of $60 you will get a crowd saying "charging me out the wazoo to do their play-testing for them!!" It didn't seem to hurt Larian that much. Players were eager to do it. But even one month is too short. Larian was planning for about six months of early access and ended up with nearly three years of it. It helped that they doled out new content throughout the test period for early access players to try. It kept them engaged, even though everyone had run through the first act of the game countless times. In my opinion, Larian has created a very good model for how to do early access right, although three years exceeds the optimal. Six to twelve months is probably ideal.
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Post by g_scoundrel on Mar 26, 2024 17:30:12 GMT
Remind me why we're discussing Larian in the Dreadwolf news thread
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Post by wickedcool on Mar 26, 2024 17:36:30 GMT
Is it odd that if the game is being released this year we haven’t heard much in 2024? If they were to release the game when would you say if we don’t hear by say August then it’s not happening?
Are there beta play testers?
Has there been any screenshots since that trailer released a while back? So many pages to go back through
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Post by colfoley on Mar 26, 2024 17:52:33 GMT
Is it odd that if the game is being released this year we haven’t heard much in 2024? If they were to release the game when would you say if we don’t hear by say August then it’s not happening? Are there beta play testers? Has there been any screenshots since that trailer released a while back? So many pages to go back through based on recent evidence and EA campaigns of the past that they tend to last about four months from release date/ start of marketing to launch. Jedi Fallen Order and at least the last three Bioware games fall in this range (if I'm remembering the ghil'dirthalen vid where she crunched the numbers correctly.) So yes Auguest would be the theoretical latest however I doubt they'll release in December. Most likely months are November and October imo.
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Post by QuizzyBunny on Mar 26, 2024 18:40:00 GMT
Remind me why we're discussing Larian in the Dreadwolf news thread I mean, they are discussed because of their use of Early Access and whether or not that's a possible way to go for Bioware. Personally I'm hesitant, I refused to do anything outside of CC with BG3 because I didn't want to play an unfinished story (and risk being spoiled in the process). While I think Larian did it in an excellent way (actually listening to the feedback and implementing a lot of it) I think I'd prefer if Bioware did it with a closed group of people, if they do it, to minimize spoilers.
Doing like last time with MEA wasn't really that great though, so should probably avoid that.
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Post by Little Bengel on Mar 26, 2024 19:20:01 GMT
Is it odd that if the game is being released this year we haven’t heard much in 2024? If they were to release the game when would you say if we don’t hear by say August then it’s not happening? Are there beta play testers? Has there been any screenshots since that trailer released a while back? So many pages to go back through Given EA's latest marketing cycles (and also taking Andromeda and Anthem's reception at launch into account), it really makes more sense that we're not getting much of substance so far. Either way, I'm expecting something at SGF, since that's the big Keighley event to cap off the first half of the year. That, unless EA is cooking a specific event to show shit off (which I'm doubting).
Regarding playtesters: there is indeed a playtesting program that you can sign up for in EA's website. I can only assume that's how we got the leaked footage and screenshots last year.
And if the trailer you're talking about is the DA Day one... no, there weren't. Not to my knowledge, at least.
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Post by Grog Muffins on Mar 26, 2024 21:40:32 GMT
Is it odd that if the game is being released this year we haven’t heard much in 2024? If they were to release the game when would you say if we don’t hear by say August then it’s not happening? Are there beta play testers? Has there been any screenshots since that trailer released a while back? So many pages to go back through They said summer, it's still barely spring. Keep the doom in your pocket for when July ends and we haven't heard anything. It's pointless tying yourself into knots and making it worse for yourself until then. Testing is done all throughout the game's development. We know it reached alpha but we have no information on beta. Until summer we likely won't and maybe even then we won't be told if it reaches beta. We could make educated guesses depending on what launch date they announce. The "Thedas Calls" teaser released on DA day last year was the last bit of official information. Also, this is the discussion thread. If you want purely news/tweets without the fluff or "off-topic", there's a thread with just that to make it easier
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Post by Sartoz on Mar 27, 2024 13:19:06 GMT
Is it odd that if the game is being released this year we haven’t heard much in 2024? If they were to release the game when would you say if we don’t hear by say August then it’s not happening? Are there beta play testers? Has there been any screenshots since that trailer released a while back? So many pages to go back through They said summer, it's still barely spring. Keep the doom in your pocket for when July ends and we haven't heard anything. It's pointless tying yourself into knots and making it worse for yourself until then. Testing is done all throughout the game's development. We know it reached alpha but we have no information on beta. Until summer we likely won't and maybe even then we won't be told if it reaches beta. We could make educated guesses depending on what launch date they announce. The "Thedas Calls" teaser released on DA day last year was the last bit of official information. Also, this is the discussion thread. If you want purely news/tweets without the fluff or "off-topic", there's a thread with just that to make it easier
Thedas Calls showed an interesting map. I'm now of the opinion that DA4 will gives us a minimum of 8 chars + cameos. With that many I'm leaning towards returning chars.... something that I'm not too happy (not counting Baldy and Varric). If so, I hope No-News-Bio assigns them a small but critical role in the game and not as a bone thrown to us fans. On the other hand, returning chars means returning voice actors which may be problematic if they have other binding contract obligations.
AI voice generated NPCs may also make their debut in DA4. My question is "will we easily spot them?". It's a cost saving measure and No-News-Bio certainly needs to cut costs as I can see this game will be their most expensive yet.
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Post by Sandetiger on Mar 27, 2024 15:02:03 GMT
An important thing to consider with MEA, DA2, or any particularly derided game is that a lot of people are going to be buying these games for like a dollar, or two, on a sale. It's not really a suprise that people can find value in these games now when the investment is so low. Dragon Age 2 is good though. Maybe. OTOH, I've had people ask "Is MEA worth [x amount]?" and the amount often varies, but I've definitely seen a range of people buying the game on sale for as little as a few bucks and as much as "full price" at something like $28-32 USD. I personally bought it for $25 and was pretty happy with my experience and purchase. I think I would have been unhappy to spend $60+ USD on a game like MEA and get what I'm reading and hearing was the day-one release state, but fortunately for me I didn't play MEA until 2022 after the game had been patched. I think it's a Your Mileage May Vary thing, again with the halo effect on how much value you get out of what you spent, with external social factors as well as other more intrinsic personal factors informing the context around that perception. Big shrug~ DA:D is probably going to be the first BioWare game that I've purchased for a Day 1 release, and it'll be a new experience for me. I've been chronically late to new games since the 1990s
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Grog Muffins
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Grog Muffins
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Grog Muffins on Mar 27, 2024 16:58:38 GMT
Maybe. OTOH, I've had people ask "Is MEA worth [x amount]?" and the amount often varies, but I've definitely seen a range of people buying the game on sale for as little as a few bucks and as much as "full price" at something like $28-32 USD. I personally bought it for $25 and was pretty happy with my experience and purchase. I think I would have been unhappy to spend $60+ USD on a game like MEA and get what I'm reading and hearing was the day-one release state, but fortunately for me I didn't play MEA until 2022 after the game had been patched. I think it's a Your Mileage May Vary thing, again with the halo effect on how much value you get out of what you spent, with external social factors as well as other more intrinsic personal factors informing the context around that perception. Big shrug~ DA:D is probably going to be the first BioWare game that I've purchased for a Day 1 release, and it'll be a new experience for me. I've been chronically late to new games since the 1990s It certainly is a Your Mileage May Vary thing, indeed, when it comes to money, especially taking into consideration the value different people place on their own income, what their income is, and the climate when they spend that money. I bought both MEA and DAI on release, preordered both actually and even used a VPN to play them as early as I could. For DAI I think the total amount of money I spent came to about 120 EUR because I also bought all the DLC. My income at the time wasn't as great as it is now but we also hadn't gone through the massive bullshit that was Covid ruining so may people's lives, myself being unemployed for an entire year and relying on mostly what I had managed to save up before. As much as I criticize what I think are the weak points of DAI, I don't regret the money. Now, would I spend that amount today on a video game? The only one I'm spending consistent money on is FFXIV, which I've been playing for over 2 years and am still having fun with, so I consider it good value for what I'm spending (it did take me a while to get over my reluctance, though, because of its subscription model, but I ultimately considered I would be playing it long enough that it would be worth it and it's getting constant and consistent updates). I wouldn't spend 120 EUR again on a singleplayer game, however, even if I end up playing it for the 1000+ hours I put into DAI. I spent 300 hours in BG3 on my first run and I'm happy with the 60 EUR I paid for it. Would not spend more on it, though. Do I regret buying MEA for 60 EUR in 2017? Not really because I was in a different place back then. Would I regret buying MEA for 60 EUR today? Yep, I would. I completed it 3 times, don't get me wrong, twice on release and once in 2020 to check its final form, but it's not worth 60 EUR today. Around 15-30 EUR I'd say is perfectly reasonable.
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