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Post by lennybusker on Dec 14, 2018 5:17:13 GMT
My only skepticism is that it will be another guddamn Live Service game rather than just a well made and complete game (important DLC is allowed) on launch.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 14, 2018 5:21:07 GMT
Regarding politics and the like, where I draw the line is when the creators start preaching. Preaching is when people tell you how you should feel or react to a certain thing instead of showing you something and letting you make up your own mind. I don't think Bioware's reached that point with me yet. Dragon Age 2 was probably their most political work with strong themes of oppression and rising up mirroring the current world. But, for example, with mages and templars, it's still perfectly valid to side with the templars on the issue even if Bioware's kinda pushing the audience to sympathise with mages. There are certain movies that have well and truly crossed the line though, and play to echo chambers. So I still don't mind Bioware's politics, even though their games are more political than in the past. But it's all down to personal taste really Well, the writers admitted that they wrote Krem in a very heavy-handed way. Before that point, I remember when Weekes talked about Krem. He said the player's reaction had to be "written in a way that can be curious, but never 'hurtful.' It was a very odd statement, I found. Considering I can sentence mages to basically live like soulless automatons as Tranquil, the arbitrary designation felt like a political agenda, particularly since that's what Weekes was talking about. TBH, if the devs are unable to write a romantic relationship with a character without delving into identity politics, I think they shouldn't write any at all. Focus on the characters, the whole character, and give us a brothel if you want sexytimes that badly. It's hardly "arbitrary". One is a real-life minority group that faces real biotry and violence, the other is not. Dragon Age never allows the player to make derogatory remarks about women or real-life racial minorities either. You are absolutely correct that BioWare has an agenda: they want minorites of all kinds to feel welcome, they specifically market their games on a platform of inclusion and diversity. I'm only skeptical of their ability to do it right.
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Post by phoray on Dec 14, 2018 5:21:56 GMT
I do think we need a skepticism thread but this isn't the one. It has all the marks of a dumpster fire swirling round it's own gigantic plumbing.
What a skepticism thread needs is Legitimate Concerns and not "in advance I've already decided DA4 sucks because bioware sucks and Bethesda sucks and POLITICS and remember the good old days?"
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Post by 10k on Dec 14, 2018 5:29:39 GMT
I do think we need a skepticism thread but this isn't the one. It has all the marks of a dumpster fire swirling round it's own gigantic plumbing. What a skepticism thread needs is Legitimate Concerns and not " in advance I've already decided DA4 sucks because bioware sucks and Bethesda sucks and POLITICS and remember the good old days?" But no one has said this...
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Post by phoray on Dec 14, 2018 5:30:32 GMT
I do think we need a skepticism thread but this isn't the one. It has all the marks of a dumpster fire swirling round it's own gigantic plumbing. What a skepticism thread needs is Legitimate Concerns and not " in advance I've already decided DA4 sucks because bioware sucks and Bethesda sucks and POLITICS and remember the good old days?" But no one has said this... That is a short version of the OP if you care to compare the main points.
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XBL Gamertag: Chris2k30
PSN: Simit2k30
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Post by simit on Dec 14, 2018 5:31:25 GMT
DA always been political, just no the political that seems to make ppls arsehole tighten an balls clench, if anything it's been particularly interesting politics.
Im no saying i can read minds cause well i cant but taking John's RL political views an putting them aside, so they dont tighten yer butt holes, his comments made sense, even if you didn't like them, in DA:O every origin story is about betrayal of family, having to leave your family or your family being betrayed, then Alistairs story is all family, so is Morrigans an tbh in a round about way all are, ever considered a lover part of the family? There lelianas, no doubt sten believes the qun is his family etc etc, DA:O is heavy political an family, DA2 again is all family an all about Hawke trying to keep them safe an nigh failing an if you missed all the politics in DA:I go play it.
Then every game has the companions, an what they about? Thats right bonding an getting close regardless of the differences.
So basically when ppl tell John to keep the politics out the game, it's disrespectful to him, to every writer thats wrote on the game an to every DA fan out there, cause wee eat that shit up an if anything, again regardless of John's RL political views of which i have no interest, the guy sounds like he knows what makes DA tick an the ppl bitching aint got a clue, i'd recommend a full trilogy rerun an this time pay attention.
Every DA game has been inclusive to all sexual orientations, some more than most, an hopefully that continues so more ppl can enjoy an relate to it the same way no dout wee all have.
Keep yer politics out, LoL
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2018 5:37:41 GMT
Honestly most people don't care if an author puts politics into their work. As long as the work is good and doesn't feel like it is preaching at you and that if you disagree in any way you're a dirty X-ist.
Which is becoming distressingly common as creative types get more and more polarized.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 14, 2018 5:37:53 GMT
DA always been political, just no the political that seems to make ppls arsehole tighten an balls clench, if anything it's been particularly interesting politics. Im no saying i can read minds cause well i cant but taking John's RL political views an putting them aside, so they dont tighten yer butt holes, his comments made sense, even if you didn't like them, in DA:O every origin story is about betrayal of family, having to leave your family or your family being betrayed, then Alistairs story is all family, so is Morrigans an tbh in a round about way all are, ever considered a lover part of the family? There lelianas, no doubt sten believes the qun is his family etc etc, DA:O is heavy political an family, DA2 again is all family an all about Hawke trying to keep them safe an nigh failing an if you missed all the politics in DA:I go play it. Then every game has the companions, an what they about? Thats right bonding an getting close regardless of the differences. So basically when ppl tell John to keep the politics out the game, it's disrespectful to him, to every writer thats wrote on the game an to every DA fan out there, cause wee eat that shit up an if anything, again regardless of John's RL political views of which i have no interest, the guy sounds like he knows what makes DA tick an the ppl bitching aint got a clue, i'd recommend a full trilogy rerun an this time pay attention. Every DA game has been inclusive to all sexual orientations, some more than most, an hopefully that continues so more ppl can enjoy an relate to it the same way no dout wee all have. Keep yer politics out, LoL Some kind of celestial event. No — no words. No words to describe it. Poetry! They should have sent a poet. So beautiful. So beautiful... I had no idea.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Dec 14, 2018 5:38:49 GMT
Alright. This is the Dragon Age 4 "Skepticism" thread. While we don't really know enough to be optimistic or pessimistic either way, Anthem has a thread like this, so we can allow DA to have one. As with the Anthem version of this thread, all are welcome to post, regardless of their present disposition towards DA4. However, it is primarily a thread for those who are skeptical. Meaning those who are pessimistic can come in here and speak their concerns without having to defend themselves against the "believers". Having said that; all the other forum rules apply. You will not discuss real world politics - of any persuasion - in this thread. No personal attacks, no baiting those that you disagree with. No slurs or intolerant language towards the groups listed in our Rules and Expectations. bsn.boards.net/post/1158408/threadThanks. Fair enough, but I'd like to just point out that the entire (stated) basis for OP's skepticism IS the premise that BioWare is inserting personal politics into their products. I feel like that frames the thread in a particular way. If I say "I'm skeptical about BioWare's ability to write a gay male romance", is that a) appropriate off-topic because it's not within the framework of OP's initial criticism, or c) political, because homosexuality is politicized and there's nothing I can do about that? Fair enough- and sorry, I should have been clearer. It is fine to be skeptical regarding DA4 because of your impression of a key devs politics or beliefs (and to state that). It is absolutely NOT fine to discuss those politics or beliefs or make generalizations regarding groups that are the focus of those beliefs. There will be - for example - no discussion of why inclusion of a trans character is either a bad or good thing, regardless of how well intentioned the post.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 14, 2018 5:44:46 GMT
Fair enough, but I'd like to just point out that the entire (stated) basis for OP's skepticism IS the premise that BioWare is inserting personal politics into their products. I feel like that frames the thread in a particular way. If I say "I'm skeptical about BioWare's ability to write a gay male romance", is that a) appropriate off-topic because it's not within the framework of OP's initial criticism, or c) political, because homosexuality is politicized and there's nothing I can do about that? Fair enough- and sorry, I should have been clearer. It is fine to be skeptical regarding DA4 because of your impression of a key devs politics or beliefs (and to state that). It is absolutely NOT fine to discuss those politics or beliefs or make generalizations regarding groups that are the focus of those beliefs. There will be - for example - no discussion of why inclusion of a trans character is either a bad or good thing, regardless of how well intentioned the post. Alright, that's much clearer. Thank you.
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Post by fiannawolf on Dec 14, 2018 5:59:14 GMT
You know when Bilbo mentioned being "spread too thin over bread", thats what DA:I felt like. I dont want DA4 to be that way. Give me story and characters that engage me.
Surprisingly AC:Odyssey managed that by having a smaller cast, in the sea of all Greece, gave them interesting backstories and really developed a core ensemble cast like Babylon 5 did. In terms of character arcs. DA needs proper character arcs again. Hawke and family had it, even if the setting was horribly reused, and the next DA needs it. I also recommend the ACO book. ITs very well written.
I have tried to complete DA:I at least 3 times, due to changing the classes and I have yet to complete it, while beloved classics stay on my self. To be repeatedly played.
I just don't know how Bioware will recapture that magic.
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Post by Starfang on Dec 14, 2018 6:31:19 GMT
While I'm sympathetic the basic/general idea here (That of being opposed to politically preachy writing that distracts or detracts from the narrative of the game), I honestly don't think it's as much of an issue in Dragon Age as it is in other IP's. The only thing I can think of is the scene in DAI where Krem's Trans-ness is just thrown in your face with no option for the player to essentially say "Aiight, you do you bruh.". Yeah that one scene in a series of games does come off pretty preachy. But honestly, the amount of options available to you the player in terms of how to RP and present your character, from a Chantry/Dalish Zealot to an Atheistic Iconoclast and everything in-between, and somehow make it all work? Praiseworthy. Right? I'm open to these topics being brought up in-universe so long as it's an actual discussion rather than "you're not one of us, you don't get a voice!" and shutting down the conversation or railroading our protagonist into being an ignorant buffoon. I get it that it's the Tumblr thing to be edgy and "deal with it", but players would benefit more from actually being educated when these sorts of sociopolitical issues crop up, rather than being immediately shut down and labeled a bigot.
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Post by vertigomez on Dec 14, 2018 6:50:12 GMT
So then it was just a commentary of disapproval on the lack of inclusion in popular media in general? If so, then my mistake. Quoting you here just so we don't derail the Twitter thread any further. Yes, that's all I was getting at.
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Post by fiannawolf on Dec 14, 2018 7:13:16 GMT
One other thing I feel might be a concern:
DLC, especially of late, hasn't been as beneficial to gaming. Again, DA:O had very meaty expansions. I still haven't finished everything in that game just yet. I want that level of icing again. ME:A spent so much time having to go thru and pick up pieces that they never really got the green light for actual add-ons.
If the DLC is story rich, its gotta add at least 15+ hrs to an adventure, if its mostly cosmetic, dont charge more then a buck or two. In a very real way, depending on how Anthem goes, that just might give us a decent indication of what will tag along with DA4. Anthem, its triumph or failure will reflect on DA4's chances.
I don't think DA:I really needed an MP mode at all.
Dont give DA4 one. It will just detract from the overall work towards SP campaign. Maybe Anthem will save DA4 from that particular brand of micro-transaction.
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Post by Starfang on Dec 14, 2018 7:21:29 GMT
One other thing I feel might be a concern: DLC, especially of late, hasn't been as beneficial to gaming. Again, DA:O had very meaty expansions. I still haven't finished everything in that game just yet. I want that level of icing again. ME:A spent so much time having to go thru and pick up pieces that they never really got the green light for actual add-ons. If the DLC is story rich, its gotta add at least 15+ hrs to an adventure, if its mostly cosmetic, dont charge more then a buck or two. In a very real way, depending on how Anthem goes, that just might give us a decent indication of what will tag along with DA4. Anthem, its triumph or failure will reflect on DA4's chances. I don't think DA:I really needed an MP mode at all. Dont give DA4 one. It will just detract from the overall work towards SP campaign. Maybe Anthem will save DA4 from that particular brand of micro-transaction. I really don't like how the EA/Bioware people are placing so much on the success of Anthem, I really feel like Dragon Age is the make or break of the company.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Dec 14, 2018 8:13:59 GMT
One other thing I feel might be a concern: DLC, especially of late, hasn't been as beneficial to gaming. Again, DA:O had very meaty expansions. I still haven't finished everything in that game just yet. I want that level of icing again. ME:A spent so much time having to go thru and pick up pieces that they never really got the green light for actual add-ons. If the DLC is story rich, its gotta add at least 15+ hrs to an adventure, if its mostly cosmetic, dont charge more then a buck or two. In a very real way, depending on how Anthem goes, that just might give us a decent indication of what will tag along with DA4. Anthem, its triumph or failure will reflect on DA4's chances. I don't think DA:I really needed an MP mode at all. Dont give DA4 one. It will just detract from the overall work towards SP campaign. Maybe Anthem will save DA4 from that particular brand of micro-transaction. I really don't like how the EA/Bioware people are placing so much on the success of Anthem, I really feel like Dragon Age is the make or break of the company. I tend to agree with this, however we all know that EA is unpredictable about these things. I sadly think it is entirely possible that DA4 might just get totally cancelled if Anthem bombs. Fortunately, I don't think Anthem will bomb. I see plenty of people getting hyped for the game.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 14, 2018 9:11:12 GMT
BioWare devs have already stated in the past that multiplayer modes get separate funding.
The SP campaign won't get the theoretical resources that would be spent on multiplayer. EA apportions resources specifically FOR the development of multiplayer.
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Post by Gileadan on Dec 14, 2018 9:13:39 GMT
I'm not sure I should post here because technically I am not really skeptical about DA4 at the moment - I know way too little to form an opinion.
As far as the political soapbox goes - I've learned to adopt a relaxed stance towards it. I personally don't think that things like Iron Bull's "He is a man!" outburst make a game better, but it's a BioWare game and I've come to expect the occasional clumsy political preaching that has all the subtlety of a six pound sledgehammer. But it's like spending time with that friend I really like - he's a good and fun guy so I forgive his one or two annoying habits.
What I'm really concerned about after MEA is the overall writing quality. MEA's story and characters did very little for me and I completed the single player story only because I liked the combat and kept hoping that the writing would pick up at some point (it didn't). But even DAI's writing relied too much on their "bad things happen because entire factions are bloody stupid" trope. Hopefully DA4 will deliver a breathtaking narrative with interesting characters...though I don't find the entire Dread Wolf plot very interesting so far and worry that we'll get an overly elfy game. DAI's combat would benefit from a complete redesign too, so they have their work cut out for them.
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Post by SofaJockey on Dec 14, 2018 10:58:35 GMT
MODERATOR POST
Mods are implementing a temp-lock on this subject. Skepticism and/or excitement discussions will recommence in the future, but not in this format at this time. As there's so little information about Dragon Age 4 in the wild, speculative discussions inevitably become more of an echo-chamber of posters' personal attitudes than any meaningful critique or excitement for the game itself. So until we know more, this is on hold. We have 'Hype' and 'Skepticism' threads ready. When there is a further info-dump about Dragon Age 4 so that there is actually something to get hyped or skeptical about, we'll open those threads up. Until then, we'll leave BioWare to cook their game a little longer.
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