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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Dec 16, 2018 18:28:54 GMT
The collision detection in DAI is about the worst in any game I've played. I just played back-to-back-to-back Descent, Jaws of Hakkon, and Treapasser. First I have played the game in years, so this is a pretty fresh impression.
So, thread title: I really hope BioWare makes the next DAI "feel" better. Otherwise, they should go back to turn-based gameplay. The combat in DAI is absolutely stupid if you play melee. Everything is a dogpile, and there is nothing tactile to any of it. You and your teammates are all over each other, while your Knight Enchanter is actually inside the enemy... Because BioWare couldn't be bothered to make simple physics work properly.
Basically, I am astonished at how bad that game is, and will never play it again.
...
What's sad about this, is that the DLC stories were far better than what we got in the vanilla game, and the banter was well done. Everything about the DLCs was an improvement, except for the gameplay itself. Yesterday I actually said to myself out loud a couple times, "goddamn I hate this fucking game."
The garbage platforming with abysmal controls, with KBM or gamepad, is beyond the pale. The combat is an endless grind of button mashing.
It was nice to finally set a dragon free, and it was nice to learn more lore. The worldbuilding of DA has always been first rate.
For fucks sake, make a game worth playing to go with that fantastic writing. If they use DAI as a template for DA4 gameplay, lol no way do they get my money.
Very frustrating game, DAI. So much fizzled potential.
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Post by thats1evildude on Dec 16, 2018 18:33:57 GMT
We never had turn-based combat.
I find the combat fairly tactical. I wish there were better options to set up abilities to fire when certain conditions are met; if the tactics screen from Dragon Age 2 made a comeback, that’d be fantastic.
Combat dogpiles can be a problem when there’s just one enemy left and you have three melee fighters. But I never thought it was make or break.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Dec 16, 2018 18:53:50 GMT
We never had turn-based combat. I find the combat fairly tactical. I wish there were better options to set up abilities to fire when certain conditions are met; if the tactics screen from Dragon Age 2 made a comeback, that’d be fantastic. Combat dogpiles can be a problem when there’s just one enemy left and you have three melee fighters. But I never thought it was make or break. Ok, DAO wasn't turn-based in expression. It absolutely is turn based, but you get some feeling of live action because of RTwP. I totally agree that the dumbing down of tactics over each iteration has been pretty sad. I wasn't "micromanaging" in DAO, because everybody knew their job. In DAI the tactical cam is so crap, I cannot imagine trying to micromanage the squad. I had a party of me (KE), Blackwall Cassandra and Vivienne. Every battle with multiple attackers was a boiling pile of confused molecules, all over each other. It looked like shit, felt like shit. No attack is impactful until the hand cancer got really bad - his stupid backflip handjob did actually feel like it did something, even though it made you lose control of the character to do it.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Dec 16, 2018 19:04:57 GMT
I'll agree to the extent that there are better examples of tactile, feel-it-in-your-bones, close quarters melee combat systems in other games. Soulsborne games come to mind. God of War 2018 is another example, and that has enemy actions that are very similar to DAI: flanking, mobbing, charging, ranged attacks, etc.
But I wouldn't go so far to say DAI is stupid and horrible. Certainly, you have to adapt to its strengths and weaknesses, but that's true for any combat system in any game.
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Post by melbella on Dec 16, 2018 19:08:18 GMT
Melee combat in DAI is pretty awful, especially since auto-attack was basically left out of kb/m controls. I would never use a party of all melee - it would be a nightmare. Ranged characters are way more fun (archer, non-KE mage) if you can get them to keep their distance. Unfortunately, they usually like to bash enemies up close instead of rain destruction from afar.
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Post by cribbian on Dec 16, 2018 19:25:50 GMT
Aye the melee in DAI is really frustrating. The number of times I tried to use deathblow on a knocked down enemy only to strike the air above them is beyond counting
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Dec 16, 2018 19:25:56 GMT
Melee combat in DAI is pretty awful, especially since auto-attack was basically left out of kb/m controls. I would never use a party of all melee - it would be a nightmare. Ranged characters are way more fun (archer, non-KE mage) if you can get them to keep their distance. Unfortunately, they usually like to bash enemies up close instead of rain destruction from afar. This. The default behavior of all companions, is dogpile. Dorian, what the fuck are you doing in there, man? The thing is, I like upfront combat. So, I cannot stand the actual gameplay of this game; it has never improved despite all the patches. MEAMP felt a little better than this, and the SP actually was much better. I played it for less than two hours and can easily admit that. So, hopefully DAI was just BW getting used to FB3 and not doing a very good job with it.
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Post by arcanistranger on Dec 16, 2018 20:58:36 GMT
The collision detection in DAI is about the worst in any game I've played. Then you must have played one game in your entire lfie. You're really scraping the bottom of the barrel here.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Dec 16, 2018 21:07:08 GMT
The collision detection in DAI is about the worst in any game I've played. Then you must have played one game in your entire lfie. You're really scraping the bottom of the barrel here. Oh goodie, it's you. Hey, go see your optometrist. Just in my forum info alone, you can see all of the BioWare games I own and have played. Hey, go see your therapist. This is legitimate gameplay criticism. You don't have to agree with it, but this antagonism is going nowhere. We will never be together, so get over me.
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Post by anarchy65 on Dec 16, 2018 21:08:16 GMT
I completely agree on the melee combat part. I played as a mage and found the game's combat very good, but when I played a double-dagger rogue I was like "WTF I don't remember combat being this clumsy and bad". I suggest you play as a mage or an archer-rogue to enjoy the game better.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Dec 16, 2018 21:12:51 GMT
I completely agree on the melee combat part. I played as a mage and found the game's combat very good, but when I played a double-dagger rogue I was like "WTF I don't remember combat being this clumsy and bad". I suggest you play as a mage or an archer-rogue to enjoy the game better. This is all well and good... But that's not how I wanted to play. MEA does this better. Yes, that game is a shooter, and still doesn't feel as impactful as ME3, but it is significantly better. Playing a Vanguard works well enough, where similar game actions in DAI turn the game into a fart parade of derp. Each DA game has had significant change in gameplay. I hope they make the significant change in this area, by improving it. All playstyles should be viable and fun.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 16, 2018 21:26:56 GMT
I can't believe I'm about to agree with you about ANYTHING, but yes, the combat is very bad. There's basically no point in TRYING to develop strategies, or really even having skills to learn. Only the dragons require anything that might resemble tactical thinking. Ogres and Qunari just soak up damage, and no combination of moves can make the process go any quicker, for regular enemies you might as well just stick with the auto-attack.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Dec 16, 2018 21:28:01 GMT
I can't believe I'm about to agree with you about ANYTHING, but yes, the combat is very bad. There's basically no point in TRYING to develop strategies, or really even having skills to learn. Only the dragons require anything that might resemble tactical thinking. Ogres and Qunari just soak up damage, and no combination of moves can make the process go any quicker, for regular enemies you might as well just stick with the auto-attack. Thanks Panda. We're not usually on the same page, so I appreciate it.
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Post by Hrungr on Dec 16, 2018 21:30:07 GMT
We've heard from a number of sources that combat is an area that is going to get a lot of attention in the next DA. And some hints that it's going to incorporate some more action-oriented elements. Everyone has their own preferences, especially when it comes to combat, but I didn't mind DA:I's myself. My favorite fantasy combat systems tend to be in the more visceral single-character games (Shadow of Mordor/War, recent Assassin's Creed games, etc.), but like PapaCharlie9, I got used to its strengths/weaknesses like I do in other games.
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Dec 16, 2018 21:35:56 GMT
I didn't have any fun playing meele in my first run, the combination of the enemies being absolute damage sponges with pretty awful KBM controls was a very potent fun killer. It was such a grind and drag that I set the difficulty level to easy simply to make the fights end faster. I could have done it on higher difficulty levels no problem but after closing the tenth or so fade gate I really could not be bothered anymore.
It only got SOMEWHAT bearable with my mage using arcane warrior because it looked cool and the damage output was really high compared to fighters, and when it got too hack'n slashy I could go back to spells.
Bioware really needs to improve the combat system a lot, it was ok in Origins, it was bad in Dragon Age 2 and in really awful in Inquisition.
In general the game was a grindfest in combat, loot, crafting, gathering materials, sidequests. It was almost as grindy as me being stuck in my office in real life.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Dec 16, 2018 21:36:20 GMT
We've heard from a number of sources that combat is an area that is going to get a lot of attention in the next DA. And some hints that it's going to incorporate some more action-oriented elements. Good to know, and interesting. This isn't necessarily bad; if it has proper collision detection and an AI that realizes that you need some space to properly swing a weapon, it could be a big improvement. Out of curiosity, what class was your main Ink?
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Post by Hrungr on Dec 16, 2018 21:55:26 GMT
We've heard from a number of sources that combat is an area that is going to get a lot of attention in the next DA. And some hints that it's going to incorporate some more action-oriented elements. Good to know, and interesting. This isn't necessarily bad; if it has proper collision detection and an AI that realizes that you need some space to properly swing a weapon, it could be a big improvement. Out of curiosity, what class was your main Ink? I think I've had PTs of every class/spec combo except... Templar. I think. Favorites: Knight Enchanter, Reaver & Tempest. Mages were the most fun though, and my favorite style of play is mixing melee and magic. I agree collision was an issue, esp. with some of the Rogue abilities IIRC. I think for me the biggest issue was the bug that was introduced in a late patch where companions could lock-up in combat. And you would manually have make them jump to get their AI to kick in again.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 16, 2018 22:04:26 GMT
We've heard from a number of sources that combat is an area that is going to get a lot of attention in the next DA. And some hints that it's going to incorporate some more action-oriented elements. Everyone has their own preferences, especially when it comes to combat, but I didn't mind DA:I's myself. My favorite fantasy combat systems tend to be in the more visceral single-character games (Shadow of Mordor/War, recent Assassin's Creed games, etc.), but like PapaCharlie9, I got used to its strengths/weaknesses like I do in other games. Actually, Assassin's Creed has some things I would like to see in DA combat. While Odyssey unfortunately doesn't lean into the stealth aspects as much as I'd like, while playing it, I still know I can use the environment and my abilities to make difficult fights easier, or even trivial. And that's what I'd like from Dragon Age: a clear and obvious benefit to approaching combat tactically. For instance: if they intend to keep combos, then the impact of them needs to be more obvious. As it stands, I can't even tell when/if I have triggered one at all, because I don't see any obvious difference. Another thing I'd like to see is for every type of enemy unit to have their own range of elemental/status weaknesses and resistances, and a way to keep track of that information, so I can apply it in future battles. Other stuff I'd like to see (in no particular order): -Moves to make enemies drop their shields. -Insta-kill for enemies that get knocked over (ala Witcher 3). -Frozen enemies should shatter if hit hard enough. -Enemies that are set on fire should actually act like they are on fire. -Magic shields that do more than just add an extra HP bar. (Like reflect damage back at enemies or something) -More abilities that stun or confuse enemies. -More use of the environment. (Oil barrels I can blow up, pillars I can knock down, etc). -Combat scenarios with non-combat solutions (ie freeing the dragon in Trespasser vs killing it).
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Dec 16, 2018 22:08:39 GMT
Good to know, and interesting. This isn't necessarily bad; if it has proper collision detection and an AI that realizes that you need some space to properly swing a weapon, it could be a big improvement. Out of curiosity, what class was your main Ink? I think I've had PTs of every class/spec combo except... Templar. I think. Favorites: Knight Enchanter, Reaver & Tempest. Mages were the most fun though, and my favorite style of play is mixing melee and magic. I agree collision was an issue, esp. with some of the Rogue abilities IIRC. I think for me the biggest issue was the bug that was introduced in a late patch where companions could lock-up in combat. And you would manually have make them jump to get their AI to kick in again. Well, you stole my thunder there I had been hoping you would say "I'm into archery only!1!" I noticed a lot of frozen companions; sometimes Viv was over it I guess and couldn't be arsed to join the fight. Iron Bull would also go MIA fairly often. Fighting the Ice Dragon in JoH, I was reminded how silly the Dragon combat was. First of all, getting underneath and in between a dragon's legs, is a very high risk move. Then, the dragon gets upset, and moves... And your party does the electric slide. Why? So unnatural, looks dumb. Also, it creates another dogpile. Dumbest dogpile, and why this game feels so bad in combat (to me) - last enemy standing, and OMG zerg rush here comes the crew! Enemy is getting thrashed, he goes down.... And it takes another 15 seconds for my team of madmen expert murderers to kill this moron? The powers look cool. They don't do much. Auto-attack truly would kill everything almost as fast. It is all window dressing. Give me substance.
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Post by arcanistranger on Dec 16, 2018 22:39:40 GMT
-Insta-kill for enemies that get knocked over (ala Witcher 3). The last thing BioWare should do is listen to people who think Witcher 3 is anything to take inspiration from.
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Post by Gileadan on Dec 17, 2018 0:00:34 GMT
The collision detection in DAI is about the worst in any game I've played. It's a certified mess. When I still played the game, back in 2014/15, I messed around with the collision detection a bit and came to the conclusion that all hitboxes in the game are human-sized, no matter the size or shape of the creature they are attached to. This is the reason why drakelings, for example, have three different HP bars (all linked to the same HP pool) instead of just one. There is no drakeling shaped hitbox, instead there's three human sized hitboxes spread over the length of its serpentine body, so characters can reach a hitbox no matter what side they're attacking from. To test this theory, all you need is a two dagger rogue (Cole will do) and a great bear. When the great bear is on all four, try to attack it with the daggers from the front. You won't land a hit, because the great bear only has a single human sized hitbox in the middle of its body and when the bear is on all four, this hitbox is too far away for the daggers to reach from the front. The bear's model stops them from getting to it. Attack from the side, and you'll see the rogue slide towards the middle of the bear's flanks in an attempt to reach the hitbox. So the guide to DAI melee combat is this: imagine an invisible human below every HP bar, and attack that.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Dec 17, 2018 0:11:08 GMT
^^^ interesting post, thanks for the science!
That seems pretty reasonable. I would prefer something more similar to ME3, where there is the big hitbox, but there are also special hitboxes (head/neck, possibly hands/feet)
Replace "crit chance" with weak points on enemies and specific powers/melee attacks that target them.
Also, the game could definitely use some finishing moves, like Twitcher games and AC. Having to really really kill a downed opponent with 4 people hacking away like morons is not immersive combat; it's ridiculous.
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Post by 10k on Dec 17, 2018 0:32:39 GMT
Personally I think DA4 should be a full on action RPG. The tactical aspect has gotten worse after each game.
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Post by anarchy65 on Dec 17, 2018 0:50:15 GMT
-Insta-kill for enemies that get knocked over (ala Witcher 3). The last thing BioWare should do is listen to people who think Witcher 3 is anything to take inspiration from. People like you deserve Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Dec 17, 2018 1:05:15 GMT
Part of the problem I have with DAI's combat - which, to me, is the worst in the DA series - is that it seemed as though it was trying to be two things at the same time. And those two things are actually sort of mutually exclusive.
It brought back the detached overhead camera from Origins, great. It also allowed for basic - very basic - preprogrammed commands/behaviours.
But then it also wanted to be an action game with pause.
I just don't believe that a game can do both those things well. At least, I've not seen it done well.
I still enjoyed the combat well enough (and loved the game as a whole) but there was always an element, even now, of fighting the control scheme as well as the enemies on the screen.
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