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Post by phoray on Dec 22, 2018 3:25:03 GMT
Hey! Maybe we can voice dislike of this idea WITHOUT also shitting on clinical depression, and sufferers thereof? I personally feel the OP is insulting clinically depressed people by assuming one jerk is going to make them finally pull the trigger. As if depression and suicide is only based on causal relationships in the first place. soooooooooooooo..... That gate was open from the start.
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Post by anarchy65 on Dec 22, 2018 3:25:13 GMT
Tali, Garrus, Leliana or Alistair? Tali kills herself because she just witnessed the death of her people. Ya, she should have died trying to stop Shepard in the first place. But her suicide actually had nothing to do with Shepard at that point. No idea what you speak of with Garrus. Leliana is mentally unwell to begin with and her suicide is completely ignored as a possibility in all world states. It isn't canon. Alistair never kills himself, I have no idea what you're talking about. They all change their personality according to what you tell them and how you act on their quests. So they aren't """""independent""""" (because sure, being affected by other people's behavior is being "not independent". Nobody does that, right?"
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 22, 2018 3:25:40 GMT
Hey! Maybe we can voice dislike of this idea WITHOUT also shitting on clinical depression, and sufferers thereof? I personally feel the OP is insulting clinically depressed people by assuming one jerk is going to make them finally pull the trigger. As if depression and suicide is only based on causal relationships in the first place. soooooooooooooo..... That gate was open from the start. I'm not pointing any fingers.
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Post by anarchy65 on Dec 22, 2018 3:25:55 GMT
Hey! Maybe we can voice dislike of this idea WITHOUT also shitting on clinical depression, and sufferers thereof? I personally feel the OP is insulting clinically depressed people by assuming one jerk is going to make them finally pull the trigger. As if depression and suicide is only based on causal relationships in the first place. soooooooooooooo..... That gate was open from the start. If that was the case, I would be insulting myself, so you better shut the fuck up
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Post by phoray on Dec 22, 2018 3:27:39 GMT
They all change their personality according to what you tell them and how you act on their quests. So they aren't """""independent""""" (because sure, being affected by other people's behavior is being "not independent". Nobody does that, right?" This is the drawback of programmed companions with limited outcomes. Being based in reality, we understand the limitations. And sometimes we DO balk at them on this forum with varying levels of passion about the subject. I don't understand what you're trying to get at exactly.
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Post by phoray on Dec 22, 2018 3:30:35 GMT
If that was the case, I would be insulting myself, That's not outside the realm of possibility. You're putting all clinically depressed people into something, a box, you associate with, which is that bullies make you think of suicide. I would hope you wouldn't pinhole your fellow clinically depressed comrades into such a picture. Edit Add: Similarly, I also hope you have good resources available to you. I know it's a struggle for many.
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Post by anarchy65 on Dec 22, 2018 3:36:35 GMT
If that was the case, I would be insulting myself, You're putting all clinically depressed people into something, a box, you associate with, which is that bullies make you think of suicide. I would hope you wouldn't pinhole your fellow clinically depressed comrades into such a picture. No, that's what YOU actually did when you said people who suicide because others (sometimes people they care about, like it would be with a companion) are jerks with them are weak-minded
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Post by phoray on Dec 22, 2018 3:37:01 GMT
And this whole big "explanation" made absolutely no argument as for what this is the same as suggesting we should be allowed to rape, LOL> Sigh. The reason is that rape and murder are pretty much both loathsome crimes. If there is a character in a game that will off themselves due to your character being a meanie face who didn't do everything they said (or, let's say 51% of what they say) they off themselves, it will have the opposite effect of your intent. People will intentionally do horrible things to this character to get them to die and then laugh about it. This will not open a healthy dialogue and this will make a lot of people feel unhappy. Have you tried Sensua's Sacrifice? I think it has what you're looking for.
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Post by phoray on Dec 22, 2018 3:40:40 GMT
You're putting all clinically depressed people into something, a box, you associate with, which is that bullies make you think of suicide. I would hope you wouldn't pinhole your fellow clinically depressed comrades into such a picture. No, that's what YOU actually did when you said people who suicide because others (sometimes people they care about, like it would be with a companion) are jerks with them are weak-minded No, I was VERY specifically mentioning YOUR scenario in the OP. I've mentioned MULTIPLE times now that most people DO NOT suicide because of bullying. Sometimes you're just sad for no reason at all with absolutely nothing triggering in your life at all. And that constant feeling of sadness, over many many years, makes you hopeless. and one way you just want to end that hopeless endless feeling. The bullying induced suicides make headlines, but I think the one I spoke of actually has much higher rates of occurence. so it stops being about raising awareness about suicide and actually raises awareness about "not being compassionate enough, or outright bullying, kills people". I think the headlines are enough awareness, if suicide must be brought up, I'd rather it be about the other kind. The sudden, clenching loss of someone you didn't even know was sad.
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Post by phoray on Dec 22, 2018 3:45:09 GMT
Anyway. This is walking off into the real world and way off from dragon age. I've made my opinion known and I'm off to other threads. I will not visit this thread anymore- I'm obviously offending people with my plain speak. I never claimed eloquence, so I'm not surprised that my intent has been misconstrued.
Luck with the thread ya'll. If you want to curse and call me names, save it for a PM.
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Post by regack on Dec 22, 2018 3:47:24 GMT
Let's all see if we can bring it down a notch in here, please.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Dec 22, 2018 3:49:47 GMT
So you don't like Tali, Garrus, Leliana or Alistair? I haven't played ME. And no, I don't like Alistair. As for Leliana, there are more neutral options you can take in the conversation with her, which is what I took on my more recent canon play.
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Post by anarchy65 on Dec 22, 2018 3:52:20 GMT
So you don't like Tali, Garrus, Leliana or Alistair? I haven't played ME. And no, I don't like Alistair. As for Leliana, there are more neutral options you can take in the conversation with her, which is what I took on my more recent canon play. Even so, you can mold Leliana's character by what you say to her, both in Dragon Age: Origins and DA:I Would you say she is not independent?
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Post by anarchy65 on Dec 22, 2018 3:53:08 GMT
Also, I remembered another game that used suicide on the exact same way I'm saying: Life is Strange. It wasn't heavily criticized for that, much on the contrary. Perhaps some people in the thread think that scene is as horrible as if the game allowed us to rape...
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Dec 22, 2018 10:02:03 GMT
Also, I remembered another game that used suicide on the exact same way I'm saying: Life is Strange. It wasn't heavily criticized for that, much on the contrary. Perhaps some people in the thread think that scene is as horrible as if the game allowed us to rape... See, I got the suicide outcome in Life is Strange and thought it was cheap storytelling and one of the worst parts of the game. I'd probably think the same if Dragon Age did it.
I am also one of the people who spends enough time dealing with this shit from my own brain - I don't really need to be walking in on companions that have hanged themselves in games without any warning.
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Post by anarchy65 on Dec 22, 2018 13:37:29 GMT
Also, I remembered another game that used suicide on the exact same way I'm saying: Life is Strange. It wasn't heavily criticized for that, much on the contrary. Perhaps some people in the thread think that scene is as horrible as if the game allowed us to rape... See, I got the suicide outcome in Life is Strange and thought it was cheap storytelling and one of the worst parts of the game. I'd probably think the same if Dragon Age did it.
I am also one of the people who spends enough time dealing with this shit from my own brain - I don't really need to be walking in on companions that have hanged themselves in games without any warning.
Well, I liked that part (I think it's the favorite part of most LiS fans). The only part I found "cheap" is Max's powers suddenly not working properly. It shows what you can achieve by showing you actually care. But calling it "cheap storytelling" I think it's at least better than comparing it to "allow us to rape" like some have said on this thread. And about that, like I said, Bioware has used suicide in their games before. Tali suicided, a guy from the side quest suicided (hanging), and it has been used in other games like The Witcher 3 (and the story with the suicide in TW3 was deeply complimented)
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Post by Serza on Dec 22, 2018 14:58:32 GMT
Well, in this day and age, everyone is screaming about "representation."
This is me saying this one wouldn't hurt. I suppose the day was coming sooner or later.
Hey! Maybe we can voice dislike of this idea WITHOUT also shitting on clinical depression, and sufferers thereof? I personally feel the OP is insulting clinically depressed people by assuming one jerk is going to make them finally pull the trigger. As if depression and suicide is only based on causal relationships in the first place. soooooooooooooo..... That gate was open from the start.
That, or they will murder the jerk in blind rage.
I am sorry. You need to go through it to understand.
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Post by Reznore on Dec 22, 2018 15:06:45 GMT
It's a bad idea, imho. Why would I want to bully a companion to suicide...and what would it say about the rest of the companions who would just stand there watching it happen? I don't mind the option of playing an asshole...but this would mean the rest of the crew has no backbone, and you're also dragging a very depressed person through PTSD inducing situations (death/ combat etc...). That's a whole lot of stupid and insensitive.
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Post by anarchy65 on Dec 22, 2018 15:38:21 GMT
It's a bad idea, imho. Why would I want to bully a companion to suicide...and what would it say about the rest of the companions who would just stand there watching it happen? I don't mind the option of playing an asshole...but this would mean the rest of the crew has no backbone, and you're also dragging a very depressed person through PTSD inducing situations (death/ combat etc...). That's a whole lot of stupid and insensitive. I didn't say you would "want it", but sometimes being an asshole has its consequences. And I was actually thinking on how the rest of the crew would react about this, again, it could be interesting if well made And of course you normally wouldn't "drag" a person on these situations, but you wouldn't know about their condition. Also, it could make for a nice dialogue how to deal with the character when he worries about what you're doing.
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Post by Rouccoco on Dec 22, 2018 16:33:43 GMT
So, this is the first time I've seen the word "suicide" used as a verb, and I already hate it. I usually support descriptivism, but some of the uses are just too weird.
With that out of the way, I don't think doing this in DA is a good idea. They've already done it in DA2 - Anders commits suicide, when you max his rivalry and force him to side with the templars. His writer was inspired by bipolar disorder and it shows, with a lot of symptoms not really having much to do with merging with Justice - and that's perfectly fine. But even if the suicide was vague, I avoid it like fire.
There's a reason heavier mental health issues are usually explored only in horror games, like the already mentioned Hellblade. You can explore it in detail without it seeming out of place or like it was used for its easy shock value. The audience is prepared for it.
It will certainly not achieve your goal, if you spring it like that. Players will either cheer, because the character was "whiny and annoying" (especially if we're talking about a male character), or they'll just stop enjoying the game, because they've either lost someone to suicide or experience suicidal ideation themselves.
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Post by linksocarina on Dec 22, 2018 16:36:02 GMT
Interesting idea.
But I have a feeling it will not work in terms of its execution, regardless of any merits or research that comes up for diving into such a subject.
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Post by LogicGunn on Dec 22, 2018 16:50:50 GMT
Tali's suicide was hard hitting, realistic and well made. I have no issue having it in a DA game, as long as it isn't flippant. There are quite a few disturbing things in the DA games, it wouldn't be out of place.
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Post by anarchy65 on Dec 22, 2018 17:40:23 GMT
So, this is the first time I've seen the word "suicide" used as a verb, and I already hate it. I usually support descriptivism, but some of the uses are just too weird. Sorry, this may be because english is not my first language. In my language, "suicide" may be used as a verb (suicidar)
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Post by Rouccoco on Dec 22, 2018 18:10:17 GMT
Sorry, this may be because english is not my first language. In my language, "suicide" may be used as a verb (suicidar) I mean, you're not wrong, people do use it like that, mostly in the US. My comment was about that (native speakers popularising that usage), not that you (or phoray) used it wrong. Treat it like a random aside, not an attempt to make you stop using it. I ramble sometimes
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Post by Nightscrawl on Dec 23, 2018 18:44:58 GMT
It will certainly not achieve your goal, if you spring it like that. Players will either cheer, because the character was "whiny and annoying" (especially if we're talking about a male character), or they'll just stop enjoying the game, because they've either lost someone to suicide or experience suicidal ideation themselves. I think the most common outcome would be to reload and try to "fix" it in some way. The very first time I played DAO, way back in 2009 on release, I played it totally blind. In many ways, it was my most "pure" play; I made choices because they made sense to me at the time, within the context of the game I was playing. I didn't "harden" Alistair, I made Alistair king, and of course I took the only other grey warden along with me to the final battle. I also refused Morrigan's "offer." Alistair insisted on taking the final blow himself because, according to him, he would make a terrible king, but this is a service he could do. So, despite any dialogue option I chose, he takes the final blow. I reloaded and did the damn fight two more times, picking different options, before realizing that there was nothing I could do. I have mixed emotions about that experience. One the one hand, while playing, I found it frustrating that I couldn't change the outcome to one I preferred. On the other hand, in hindsight, I think it's good game design to have independently-minded characters, or events that are beyond the player's control. With this specific concept, they would have to make it obvious that the player's actions are what drove the character to kill him or herself. Once that is made known to the player base, I think there would be that contingent of players that pick the options simply because they dislike the character. We see it with DA2 and people saying that they can't wait to kill Anders, Fenris, or Merrill in the Gallows at the end. I do not think that players see options like this and have any grand thoughts about the consequences of their actions, rather that these are game mechanics and points to be manipulated into getting the results they want.
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