inherit
Elvis Has Left The Building
7794
0
Oct 31, 2020 23:57:02 GMT
8,066
pessimistpanda
3,804
Apr 18, 2017 15:57:34 GMT
April 2017
pessimistpanda
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 31, 2018 22:30:40 GMT
Well it still suggests that you cannot be a "respected outsider" and a female. My Hawke's reaction to Fenris' words was more a case of "I'm a woman and proud of it." Which is what she was thinking after defeating the Arishok. That is why I'd agree they didn't retcon the Qunari ideas of gender because they are essentially saying you cannot be both a woman and a fighter. Therefore if you are a fighter you must live as a man, if you insist you wish to be seen as a woman then you cannot be a fighter. Krem would have found acceptance because Krem both wanted to be seen as a man and was able to fight as well as any man. It doesn't actually make the Qun any more accepting of transgender if the person identifies as one gender but wants to perform the role that they attribute to the other. Right. I didn't say it was a good system - it's very rigid in its own way and dismissive of people who identify as women and warriors - just that it's interesting that Fenris tries to reason with the Arishok by saying Hawke's not female, but basalit-an, and thus an acceptable adversary. Well, also, it's not clear what Qunari consider being a "fighter" to entail. Tallis is female, but her role in the Qun requires combat on occasion, and the people that assigned it to her must know that.
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inherit
Friend of Red Jenny
90
0
18,890
vertigomez
5,281
August 2016
vertigomez
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Post by vertigomez on Dec 31, 2018 22:40:32 GMT
Right. I didn't say it was a good system - it's very rigid in its own way and dismissive of people who identify as women and warriors - just that it's interesting that Fenris tries to reason with the Arishok by saying Hawke's not female, but basalit-an, and thus an acceptable adversary. Well, also, it's not clear what Qunari consider being a "fighter" to entail. Tallis is female, but her role in the Qun requires combat on occasion, and the people that assigned it to her must know that. Good ol' Qun logic. Tallis fights, but she's not a "fight-er" unless they decide she is. Roles in the Qun are very rigid and exact up until they aren't. Like trying to tell the Arishok his Qunari are going Tal-Vashoth... "Those aren't Qunari." "Right, they aren't Qunari because they went Tal-Vashoth." "No. A true Qunari would never go Tal-Vashoth, so we lost nothing."
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inherit
4964
0
Jun 17, 2017 17:29:55 GMT
3,700
arvaarad
1,465
Mar 18, 2017 16:32:40 GMT
March 2017
arvaarad
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire
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Post by arvaarad on Dec 31, 2018 22:43:16 GMT
Right. I didn't say it was a good system - it's very rigid in its own way and dismissive of people who identify as women and warriors - just that it's interesting that Fenris tries to reason with the Arishok by saying Hawke's not female, but basalit-an, and thus an acceptable adversary. Well, also, it's not clear what Qunari consider being a "fighter" to entail. Tallis is female, but her role in the Qun requires combat on occasion, and the people that assigned it to her must know that. These aren’t daggers, they’re the Ben-Hassrath’s ceremonial embroidery needles. Now try to stay out of combat, or your needles might accidentally get blood on them.
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inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
Mar 28, 2024 16:27:05 GMT
26,626
gervaise21
10,745
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 1, 2019 9:16:56 GMT
Well, also, it's not clear what Qunari consider being a "fighter" to entail. Tallis is female, but her role in the Qun requires combat on occasion, and the people that assigned it to her must know that. Perhaps I should have used the word "soldier" instead of "fighter". After all everyone would need to be able to fight to an extent to defend themselves should the need arise and I am sure the Qun would give all its members rudimentary training in self-defence. When we talk about roles, I mean the prime purpose of the role. The prime purpose of a soldier or warrior is to fight and any other skills are subsidiary to this requirement, even though those skills may be important to being a successful warrior. Sten and his team was on an investigative mission on behalf of the Qun, so at that point their role was verging on Ben-Hassrath territory. However, they were being very open and up front about it, so this is why members of the Arishok's team were sent. Tallis' role primarily involved subterfuge, as is the case of the majority of their agents outside of Par Vollen, particularly the non-qunari (by race) ones. She may necessarily require skills to defend herself but that is not her prime purpose, which is to do undercover work. Elves and humans are almost automatically going to be assigned to those sort of roles because of their ability to blend in with the general population. Presumably those that do not show an aptitude for fighting at all are given other suitable roles for which being an elf or human gives them an advantage over being a qunari. It is said that part of the strategy of the Qun was to get these elves and humans to sell themselves into slavery in Tevinter so they are well placed to gather information and to cause civil unrest when the time is right. Being a slave in a leading Magister's household could be very useful to the Qun. I must admit I find it funny that people are so focussed on the fact that every elf we meet could be an agent of Solas, they forget that every elf or human we meet could also be an agent of the Qun, particularly now we are heading to Tevinter.
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inherit
4964
0
Jun 17, 2017 17:29:55 GMT
3,700
arvaarad
1,465
Mar 18, 2017 16:32:40 GMT
March 2017
arvaarad
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire
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Post by arvaarad on Jan 1, 2019 17:17:40 GMT
I must admit I find it funny that people are so focussed on the fact that every elf we meet could be an agent of Solas, they forget that every elf or human we meet could also be an agent of the Qun, particularly now we are heading to Tevinter. Or dwarf! The Qunari are interested in lyrium, technology, and disrupting the alliance with Tevinter, some well-placed dwarves would be difficult to set up, but extremely high-value if they can manage it. Carta placements would be a lot easier and still potentially valuable.
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inherit
Friend of Red Jenny
90
0
18,890
vertigomez
5,281
August 2016
vertigomez
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 1, 2019 17:29:14 GMT
Speaking of dwarves, I could've sworn Sten said something along the lines of 'Orzammar has the right idea with the caste system, just that they haven't perfected it' (since it's based on birth and not on merit). But since I can't find evidence of that conversation anywhere, it must be all in my imagination. 😋
The most he says is, "Hmph. Not bad." when entering the Orzammar Commons, which makes me wonder if an appreciation for fine dwarven architecture is just a Qunari thing, since both Sten and Bull are into it! Then again, there are dwarven ruins in Par Vollen...
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inherit
4964
0
Jun 17, 2017 17:29:55 GMT
3,700
arvaarad
1,465
Mar 18, 2017 16:32:40 GMT
March 2017
arvaarad
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire
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Post by arvaarad on Jan 1, 2019 17:44:42 GMT
Speaking of dwarves, I could've sworn Sten said something along the lines of 'Orzammar has the right idea with the caste system, just that they haven't perfected it' (since it's based on birth and not on merit). But since I can't find evidence of that conversation anywhere, it must be all in my imagination. 😋 The most he says is, "Hmph. Not bad." when entering the Orzammar Commons, which makes me wonder if an appreciation for fine dwarven architecture is just a Qunari thing, since both Sten and Bull are into it! Then again, there are dwarven ruins in Par Vollen... Maybe they’re thinking “thank goodness, finally a civilization with running water” or something along those lines. Traveling Thedas must be pretty miserable for them, not just on a philosophical level but on a purely technological one. None of the conveniences of home are available.
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inherit
Friend of Red Jenny
90
0
18,890
vertigomez
5,281
August 2016
vertigomez
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 1, 2019 17:45:43 GMT
Since I'm going on a Sten-dialogue-binge, I thought I'd collect all his interesting could-be-relevant-in-DA4 location-triggered comments.
(defeating Shah Wyrd) "Another argument for discipline, and certainly no answer for the Arishok."
(statue of Hessarian) "Even in stone, Tevinter arrogance shows."
(on the Mountain Top after seeing the high dragon) "Now that is ataashi!" (unsaid but still felt: TAARSIDATH-AN HALSAAM!)
(entering the Brecilian Forest) "This is like my home in Seheron. But the fiends here are only monsters."
(near the Tevinter ruins) "So, they were here, too? No wonder."
(after the werewolves retreat into the ruins) "No one in your country repairs anything when they occupy it, do they?"
(descending down the first stairs in the Ruins Upper Level) "More signs of the Tevinter. This place will be full of traps, then. Or worse."
(during conversation with Sophia Dryden) "The Qun is quite clear in matters of demons. Destroy them quickly, efficiently. Enough talk."
And this conversation between him and Sarel:
Sarel: Oh? Is it not the Qunari way to force others to submit? Surely that would not be your advice to my people were they attacked by the mighty Qunari. Sten: That would be different. The Qunari would improve your people. The humans have improved nothing.
....and this one's not relevant to anything but it made me laugh:
(entering Lake Calenhad Docks) "Humans over-compensating as always."
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inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
Mar 28, 2024 16:27:05 GMT
26,626
gervaise21
10,745
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 1, 2019 19:18:28 GMT
Then again, there are dwarven ruins in Par Vollen... Really? I thought the ruins were of human construction. It is why they are somewhat extraordinary seeing as they are quite unlike those found elsewhere. Actually I'd also be interested to know if the Deep Roads do extend up that far. Ditto Seheron.
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inherit
Friend of Red Jenny
90
0
18,890
vertigomez
5,281
August 2016
vertigomez
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 1, 2019 19:25:36 GMT
Then again, there are dwarven ruins in Par Vollen... Really? I thought the ruins were of human construction. It is why they are somewhat extraordinary seeing as they are quite unlike those found elsewhere. Actually I'd also be interested to know if the Deep Roads do extend up that far. Ditto Seheron. Yep! There are human ruins too (the pyramids), but Bull remarks that there are dwarven ruins in Par Vollen. Bull: This stonework is old. And I don't mean just a couple ages old. We're talking old. Inquisitor: How can you tell? Bull: You think we don't have dwarven ruins up in Par Vollen? My old Tamassran saw this place, she'd rope it off until the scholars counted the grains in every block. Inquisitor: Another tomb. Bull: Why are the Venatori the first ones out here? Inquisitor: Corypheus must have put them on the scent. Bull: No, I mean why isn't Orlais or Ferelden sending scholars to learn how to make a building that lasts a thousand years? This is real engineering. None of this "we'll get a mage to lift that block" crap Tevinter does. Dorian: Well, pardon us. Bull: Seriously, look at this place. Know why it lasted so long? Siege mentality. It may be above ground, but the old dwarves built this city like a mountain might fall on it.
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inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
Mar 28, 2024 16:27:05 GMT
26,626
gervaise21
10,745
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 1, 2019 20:05:53 GMT
Yep! There are human ruins too (the pyramids), but Bull remarks that there are dwarven ruins in Par Vollen. I stand corrected. I have to admit I didn't have Bull with me a lot of the time so I missed these conversations. Still it sounds like they were on the surface too because if the Deep Roads ran up that far, where were the dwarves? If the dwarves were gone, where were the darkspawn? Sten was sent south with his group specifically to research them and how much danger they presented. If there were Deep Roads under Par Vollen I'd have thought the Qunari could have got plenty of research done closer to home. Bull: No, I mean why isn't Orlais or Ferelden sending scholars to learn how to make a building that lasts a thousand years? This is real engineering. None of this "we'll get a mage to lift that block" crap Tevinter does. Now this is an interesting comment by Bull because we know the Orlesians did get as far as the Hissing Wastes because of the big statue to their Emperor there. So presumably they just weren't interested in finding out more about dwarven building techniques.
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inherit
Scribbles
185
0
30,189
Hanako Ikezawa
Fan from 2003 - 2020
22,331
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 1, 2019 20:15:01 GMT
Yep! There are human ruins too (the pyramids), but Bull remarks that there are dwarven ruins in Par Vollen. I stand corrected. I have to admit I didn't have Bull with me a lot of the time so I missed these conversations. Still it sounds like they were on the surface too because if the Deep Roads ran up that far, where were the dwarves? If the dwarves were gone, where were the darkspawn? Sten was sent south with his group specifically to research them and how much danger they presented. If there were Deep Roads under Par Vollen I'd have thought the Qunari could have got plenty of research done closer to home. Considering the Deep Roads would have to run under the sea to reach Par Vollen, it’s possible they got breached and flooded causing them to be separated from the rest thus safe from the Darkspawn.
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inherit
Friend of Red Jenny
90
0
18,890
vertigomez
5,281
August 2016
vertigomez
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 1, 2019 20:18:03 GMT
Depending on the timeline (I'm not great at this part LOL), the dwarves could've left when the Qunari came and the humans they used to trade with on the surface converted to the Qun. It could be that business dried up, or these giant horned dragon people were just too strange and intimidating for the ancient dwarves to want to fuck with.
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inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
Mar 28, 2024 16:27:05 GMT
26,626
gervaise21
10,745
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 1, 2019 20:55:49 GMT
Depending on the timeline (I'm not great at this part LOL), the dwarves could've left when the Qunari came and the humans they used to trade with on the surface converted to the Qun Well it sounds to me like the lore might be a bit woolly when it comes to this anyway. If the dwarves left when the Qunari arrived, that was only just over 300 years ago, so that seems unlikely as the structures would have been current when they left and the Qunari wouldn't have allowed them to fall to ruin if they found them useful. So it is likely the dwarves were much further in the past, maybe from the time that the pyramids were built by the humans. They could even have been a different sort of dwarf from those further south. Could there be another titan under Par Vollen and the dwarves were more like sha-brytol? Or maybe the dialogue was written for Iron Bull without much thought having been given to it and it was intended to fill it in later should the need arise.
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inherit
Champion of Kirkwall
1212
0
8,023
Sifr
3,737
Aug 25, 2016 20:05:11 GMT
August 2016
sifr
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Sifr on Jan 2, 2019 4:27:29 GMT
Bull: You think we don't have dwarven ruins up in Par Vollen? My old Tamassran saw this place, she'd rope it off until the scholars counted the grains in every block. It's little nuggets like this that makes me wish we could meet Tama, she sounds like my kinda lady!
(Or at least knows how to appreciate a good ruin!)
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inherit
Friend of Red Jenny
90
0
18,890
vertigomez
5,281
August 2016
vertigomez
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 3, 2019 0:20:12 GMT
Bull: You think we don't have dwarven ruins up in Par Vollen? My old Tamassran saw this place, she'd rope it off until the scholars counted the grains in every block. It's little nuggets like this that makes me wish we could meet Tama, she sounds like my kinda lady!
(Or at least knows how to appreciate a good ruin!) LOL I love Tama so much I went out and looked for fanfic featuring her. I found one where Bull meets her again later in life, got me right in the feels.
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inherit
Friend of Red Jenny
90
0
18,890
vertigomez
5,281
August 2016
vertigomez
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 4, 2019 7:26:43 GMT
Think we'll see an Exalted March in the next game? If Vivienne's Divine and she's in the party when you kill Qun-loyal Iron Bull (😢), she'll mutter something about an Exalted March on Par Vollen. And given Cassandra's no-nonsense approach to most things and Sten's banter with Leliana,
Sten: Qunari are most dangerous because we are thinking men and not an unthinking force. Leliana: I don't understand. What do you mean? Sten: For your sake, I hope you never find out.
I can imagine a suitably-vague Divine Victoria declaring an Exalted March in response to recent events.
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inherit
1439
0
Mar 25, 2024 20:11:35 GMT
12,446
witchcocktor
4,031
Sept 6, 2016 10:00:37 GMT
September 2016
witchcocktor
Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by witchcocktor on Jan 4, 2019 7:35:37 GMT
Vivienne is my Divine of choice, eep. The feeling when you love qunari and find Qun interesting, but also think that we need to destroy these terrorists.
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inherit
4964
0
Jun 17, 2017 17:29:55 GMT
3,700
arvaarad
1,465
Mar 18, 2017 16:32:40 GMT
March 2017
arvaarad
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire
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Post by arvaarad on Jan 4, 2019 13:11:18 GMT
Vivienne is my Divine of choice, eep. The feeling when you love qunari and find Qun interesting, but also think that we need to destroy these terrorists. If there’s an Exalted March, I really hope we get to play as capital-Q Qunari. Let us feel the frustration of being targeted by an Exalted March due to the actions of an extremist religious leader, whom we have no control over. Let us feel the brunt of the mistrust from the rest of Thedas, when we’re not even part of the army. Let us be oppressed by Ben-Hassrath at home, while everyone blames us for Ben-Hassrath activity abroad.
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inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Jan 4, 2019 13:47:24 GMT
Vivienne is my Divine of choice, eep. The feeling when you love qunari and find Qun interesting, but also think that we need to destroy these terrorists. The Qun is the worst system. Despite this, I disagree. The Qunari people have to destroy the Qun as a system, not an Exalted March. Fog Warriors, Tal-Vashoths, not the Chantry. The Chantry has no right to do it.
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inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
Mar 28, 2024 16:27:05 GMT
26,626
gervaise21
10,745
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 4, 2019 14:57:23 GMT
Fog Warriors, Tal-Vashoths They are not the Qunari people any more than the Chantry are. They have no wish to be part of the Qunari. Some Tal-Vashoths actively work against it but only because they tend to be hunted down by the Ben-Hassrath for leaving. As for the Fog Warriors, they represent the free people of Seheron who do not want to be part of the Qun or the Tevinter Imperium. They want their independence. If the Qun were to give them their island back (which they never will willingly), then I am sure the Fog Warriors would be content to leave it at that. It is why the Chantry would never succeed in an Exalted March whilst the Qun are not actively invading anywhere but Tevinter. It is also why the Qun leadership were at pains to denounce both the former Arishok and the Viddasala once their actions failed. As Sten indicated to the Warden, the Llomerryn Accord works very much in the Qun's favour as none of the southern nations want a return to a situation of constant war, so the treaty ensures the Qun do not have to fight on two fronts. Where the Chantry could help tip the balance is by covertly helping Tevinter but it is highly unlikely they would do that either because of the risk of it being discovered and the animosity towards the Imperial Chantry. Think we'll see an Exalted March in the next game? If Vivienne's Divine and she's in the party when you kill Qun-loyal Iron Bull (😢), she'll mutter something about an Exalted March on Par Vollen. And given Cassandra's no-nonsense approach to most things and Sten's banter with Leliana, I think Vivienne's reaction was before she received the response from the Triumverate that we are told in the epilogue. With a Qun-loyal Bull and thus an alliance with the Qun, they offer for it to continue regardless of whether you disband the Inquisition or not, so it would be a pretty big step for the Divine to disregard this altogether and deliberately provoke the Qunari by attacking them, thus breaking the Llomerryn Accord. What all three Divines probably would reject would be the invitation to assist the Qun against Tevinter, although I can see both Leliana and Vivienne being politically savvy enough to keep them guessing rather than give a definite reply.
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inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Jan 4, 2019 15:06:26 GMT
gervaise21Oh, yes, qunari, not Qunari. And you're right. I just referred to the question of an Exalted March, what, according to me, can't bring any benefit (except to the Chantry, if they won... and if the goal is that the Chantry to rule over man, not to serve him.)
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inherit
Elvis Has Left The Building
7794
0
Oct 31, 2020 23:57:02 GMT
8,066
pessimistpanda
3,804
Apr 18, 2017 15:57:34 GMT
April 2017
pessimistpanda
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jan 4, 2019 15:14:33 GMT
Honestly, if Tevinter has been able to hold them off on its own for this long, I don't see the point in the Accords. It's clear the Qunari have no respect for the treaty itself, and they're very vocal about their intention to violate it as soon as convenient. If they were in any position to attack openly, they would have done so. Better to get organised now and get the jump on them while they're still building warships or breeding more warriors or whatever the fuck they're waiting for.
I find it hard to believe that all the nations of Thedas combined would still struggle now as they did in the past. If anything, the Qunari seem to be the ones struggling. Though they would never admit it, because it might mean that their reprehensible philosophy was *le gasp* not actually inherently better than everyone else's.
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inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Jan 4, 2019 15:38:09 GMT
The problem isn't with the philosophy, it can be a fascinating idea... the problem always the manifestation of the philosophy when it converted to a system. Be careful with the manifested dreams/utopies!
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inherit
4964
0
Jun 17, 2017 17:29:55 GMT
3,700
arvaarad
1,465
Mar 18, 2017 16:32:40 GMT
March 2017
arvaarad
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire
|
Post by arvaarad on Jan 4, 2019 15:46:31 GMT
Honestly, if Tevinter has been able to hold them off on its own for this long, I don't see the point in the Accords. It's clear the Qunari have no respect for the treaty itself, and they're very vocal about their intention to violate it as soon as convenient. In fairness to the Qunari, what little we know about the Tevinter-Qunari conflict suggests that Tevinter fights very dirty. The Qunari catch Thedas’ attention by massing troops, but no one outside Par Vollen gives a fuck when Tevinter burns down a Qunari school. Tevinter could have been similarly nasty to Qunari civilians for years, and it wouldn’t have pinged on southern Thedas’ radar.
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