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∯ Oh Loredy...
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August 2016
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 7, 2019 17:17:18 GMT
I don't know that I'd call the Avvar "more valid" - it's more closely aligned with how I view the world of Thedas, but ultimately if one disagrees that a spirit can be considered a god, or if one has faith that the Maker exists as a separate entity entirely, or that the Dalish gods are worthy of worship regardless of their flaws (much like the Hellenic gods), none of them seem more valid than the others, to me. By valid, I was not meaning as perceived by an outsider but in terms of the people themselves. Your Inquisitor can even sound sceptical when shown the Avvar gods and say something about them being spirits and the Augurs response is to the effect that of course they are spirits. For it to equate to what they did to the Dalish, the Avvar would have to think their gods were more than spirits and then some ancient Avvar pops up and says that they were nothing more than spirits and by the way some of them weren't as benign as you seem to think they were. During Jaws of Hakkon you do not discover or do anything that undermines their belief system. They know that some of their gods are badass and others more helpful and benign. If the god's mortal vessel is killed then they know it is their belief that will ultimately allow it to return. Whereas by the end of Trespasser a Lavellan Inquisitor could be forgiven for feeling their entire belief system has been shot to pieces. It was bad enough after the Temple of Mythal but all we knew then was that Mythal had been murdered and not by the Dread Wolf, plus Tevinter wasn't responsible for the fall of the Elven Empire. Trespasser keeps ramming home the idea that they were nothing more than corrupt mage tyrants and by the time the effects of the Veil had happened and then the elven civil war it is surprising there was enough left for Tevinter to conquer at all. Of course you can argue that a Dalish with faith can simply ignore all these revelations, just as the Andrastrians do whenever you discover something that runs contrary to what they believe but I can't do that. Having faith was when they only had their legends to believe in and nothing could be proven or disproven because it was too far in the past. You could have faith in the character and moral codes ascribed to the gods because there was nothing to contradict it. However, my Lavellans were contemptuous of the way everything they discovered about what really happened to them was conveniently ignored for the sake of the faith of the ordinary people and political expediency of continuing to promote them as the Herald of Andraste, so if they felt that way about the Andrastrian religion they would be hypocritical to ignore the evidence that mounted up against their own "gods". At least the Avvar have certainty about their religion, although the way the writers seem to view the application of faith apparently the Avvar have none because they know who their gods are.
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UutIVvdPw7END0Ef
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August 2016
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Post by UutIVvdPw7END0Ef on Jan 13, 2019 22:15:29 GMT
In regards to the origin of the Qunari/Kossith this bit from the Canticle of Exaltations is interesting:
And I heard from the East a great cry As men who were beasts warred with their brothers, Tooth and claw against blade and bow, Until one could no longer be told from the other, And cursed them and cursed their generations.
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Mar 28, 2024 16:27:05 GMT
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10,745
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 14, 2019 15:02:11 GMT
In regards to the origin of the Qunari/Kossith this bit from the Canticle of Exaltations is interesting: And I heard from the East a great cry As men who were beasts warred with their brothers, Tooth and claw against blade and bow, Until one could no longer be told from the other, And cursed them and cursed their generations. I've always thought this was referring to the werewolves in the Brecilian Forest if the Canticle is directly referencing events from the Dragon Age but I suppose it could also suggest the Kossith in times past.
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Mar 10, 2024 18:44:44 GMT
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August 2016
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Post by Iddy on Feb 6, 2019 17:39:57 GMT
(About Grey Wardens and their griffons)
“You’re taking a partner who will share your life for many years. You will eat together, fight together, stand long and lonely guard together. Your lives, and your companions’ lives, will depend on the trust you share with your griffon. Abuse it, and you’ll have the worst enemy you could ever know.”
“Sounds like a wife,” Garahel said wryly, trudging up after the dwarf.
Turab nodded sagely. “That’s a fair way of putting it. If your wife outweighed you six times over, ate a live goat at each meal, and could snap every bone in your body under one foot.”
“I did once seduce a Qunari,” the elf murmured.
-The Last Flight
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N3
Posts: 839 Likes: 1,155
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1,155
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839
September 2016
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Post by xerrai on Feb 6, 2019 20:27:36 GMT
Maybe someone more cynical. I'm hoping we have a background other than Vashoth - I'd be okay with a "fill in the blank" conversation like we had with Josie, only this time you could say that you're Tal-Vashoth, or you follow the Qun, or you grew up on Seheron in the midst of the fighting, etc. And as the romance thread is kicking into high gear, I've been thinking about what sort of relationship this incredibly vague character in my head would be drawn to. [...] For example, I had planned on playing a city elf in DAI, only to discover that wasn't even an option, yet to my mind a city elf servant would have had more reason to be at the Conclave than a Dalish spy ( who should never have been allowed anywhere near the main proceedings and the Divine since their allegiance is literally shown on their face). The entire conclave was weird. Spies aside, they also apparently allowed the Grey Wardens onto the premises without much oversight, allowed the Divine to be separated from her (presumed) guards and more prominently, didn't detect the presence of ugly monstrous-looking Corypheus. And something tells me he is not the best at stealth. Either Cory and his forces had an A-grade plan and/or distraction on thier side, or the security was significantly sub-par.
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Jun 17, 2017 17:29:55 GMT
3,700
arvaarad
1,465
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Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire
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Post by arvaarad on Feb 6, 2019 21:23:56 GMT
[...] For example, I had planned on playing a city elf in DAI, only to discover that wasn't even an option, yet to my mind a city elf servant would have had more reason to be at the Conclave than a Dalish spy ( who should never have been allowed anywhere near the main proceedings and the Divine since their allegiance is literally shown on their face). The entire conclave was weird. Spies aside, they also apparently allowed the Grey Wardens onto the premises without much oversight, allowed the Divine to be separated from her (presumed) guards and more prominently, didn't detect the presence of ugly monstrous-looking Corypheus. And something tells me he is not the best at stealth. Either Cory and his forces had an A-grade plan and/or distraction on thier side, or the security was significantly sub-par. I assume he was still in disguise at that point. When he visited Bianca he supposedly looked like either Janaka or Larius.
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August 2016
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Post by vertigomez on May 8, 2019 15:34:16 GMT
soon it will be..... qunari time ;;
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18,890
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August 2016
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Post by vertigomez on May 21, 2019 23:28:17 GMT
(I've been on a Sten kick.)
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Friend of Red Jenny
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18,890
vertigomez
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August 2016
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Post by vertigomez on Sept 4, 2019 21:37:46 GMT
Apparently if you don't romance anyone in DA2 and still manage to trigger Varric's "friendly concern" talk, you get this: "I hear that you're seeing some Qunari in Lowtown. Getting serious, even. Are wedding bells in the air, by any chance?"
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Scribbles
185
0
30,187
Hanako Ikezawa
Fan from 2003 - 2020
22,331
August 2016
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 4, 2019 22:11:11 GMT
Apparently if you don't romance anyone in DA2 and still manage to trigger Varric's "friendly concern" talk, you get this: "I hear that you're seeing some Qunari in Lowtown. Getting serious, even. Are wedding bells in the air, by any chance?" *adds to the 'Things I Don't Like About Varric' list*
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Friend of Red Jenny
90
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18,890
vertigomez
5,281
August 2016
vertigomez
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Post by vertigomez on Sept 4, 2019 22:26:17 GMT
Apparently if you don't romance anyone in DA2 and still manage to trigger Varric's "friendly concern" talk, you get this: "I hear that you're seeing some Qunari in Lowtown. Getting serious, even. Are wedding bells in the air, by any chance?" *adds to the 'Things I Don't Like About Varric' list* Meanwhile it's on my Things I Adore About Varric list. 😛
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ღ I am a golem. Obviously.
440
0
24,181
phoray
Dreadnaw Rising
12,570
August 2016
phoray
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
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Post by phoray on Sept 4, 2019 22:51:39 GMT
Apparently if you don't romance anyone in DA2 and still manage to trigger Varric's "friendly concern" talk, you get this: There are too many bangable hot messes for me to ever accomplish this. But also, kewl. DA2 is such a variable gem, they may have kept the same maps, but they made up for it in the ways that I adore.
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theascendent
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
PSN: The Ascendent
Posts: 482 Likes: 629
inherit
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Feb 10, 2024 20:42:33 GMT
629
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482
Aug 28, 2017 10:17:49 GMT
August 2017
theascendent
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
The Ascendent
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Post by theascendent on Sept 4, 2019 23:37:51 GMT
Considering that we are heading to Tevinter, which is in the middle of a Qunari invasion I imagine that we will be interacting and dealing with plenty of Qunari and Tal-Vasoth. Hopefully we can actually debate and argue with them. Although I imagine we can have more involved dialogue and make better progress with a brick wall. The conversation with Tallis was especially vexing for my Mage Hawke, who while he liked Tallis as a person, despises everything she stands for.
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Friend of Red Jenny
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18,890
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August 2016
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Post by vertigomez on Sept 5, 2019 0:15:52 GMT
Considering that we are heading to Tevinter, which is in the middle of a Qunari invasion I imagine that we will be interacting and dealing with plenty of Qunari and Tal-Vasoth. Hopefully we can actually debate and argue with them. Although I imagine we can have more involved dialogue andmake better progress with a brick wall. The conversation with Tallis was especially vexing for my Mage Hawke, who while he liked Tallis as a person, despises everything she stands for. Well, you could debate with Sten. The whole conversation about changing your role and being like a turtle with a shell, how you can carry your old life with you to make you stronger. Just because he ultimately wasn't convinced beyond, "perhaps" doesn't make it less of a debate. I doubt we'll be able to school Qunari with our ~superior southern knowledge~ though, lol. Unless they're leaning Tal-Vashoth, I imagine it'd be a bit like trying to convince Morrigan that Circles are necessary or Cassandra that the Maker doesn't exist.
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Post by Iddy on Sept 6, 2019 15:05:54 GMT
I wanted to have a canon Qunari protagonist, but I guess that's gonna have to wait until DA5. DA4 likely won't be the place for it.
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Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire
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Post by arvaarad on Sept 6, 2019 23:43:32 GMT
I wanted to have a canon Qunari protagonist, but I guess that's gonna have to wait until DA5. DA4 likely won't be the place for it. Why not? The Qunari seem to be in a particularly interesting situation right now, which could benefit from an insider view. They’ve recently been under attack by Venatori cultists, which could have fairly severe effects on the civilian population. Plus, their internal political situation seems to be getting complicated recently - we only see flashes, but there are plenty of hints toward schisms in the leadership. I don’t want BW to hold back on a Qunari PC for too long. The longer we go without a Qunari protag, the more players are going to build up a fanon concept of Qunari society that’ll be hard to shake once confronted with canon. Already, the Trespasser codices by Qunari tend to be dismissed out of hand, because players are so attached to the Qunari/Chantry propaganda visions of Qunari society.
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Elvis Has Left The Building
7794
0
Oct 31, 2020 23:57:02 GMT
8,066
pessimistpanda
3,804
Apr 18, 2017 15:57:34 GMT
April 2017
pessimistpanda
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 7, 2019 6:17:03 GMT
I wanted to have a canon Qunari protagonist, but I guess that's gonna have to wait until DA5. DA4 likely won't be the place for it. Why not? The Qunari seem to be in a particularly interesting situation right now, which could benefit from an insider view. They’ve recently been under attack by Venatori cultists, which could have fairly severe effects on the civilian population. Plus, their internal political situation seems to be getting complicated recently - we only see flashes, but there are plenty of hints toward schisms in the leadership. I don’t want BW to hold back on a Qunari PC for too long. The longer we go without a Qunari protag, the more players are going to build up a fanon concept of Qunari society that’ll be hard to shake once confronted with canon. Already, the Trespasser codices by Qunari tend to be dismissed out of hand, because players are so attached to the Qunari/Chantry propaganda visions of Qunari society. Do thise codices reveal anything particularly interesting? Because the Qunari characters I speak to in-game do not do a good job of selling their society to me.
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Jun 17, 2017 17:29:55 GMT
3,700
arvaarad
1,465
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arvaarad
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire
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Post by arvaarad on Sept 7, 2019 12:19:06 GMT
Why not? The Qunari seem to be in a particularly interesting situation right now, which could benefit from an insider view. They’ve recently been under attack by Venatori cultists, which could have fairly severe effects on the civilian population. Plus, their internal political situation seems to be getting complicated recently - we only see flashes, but there are plenty of hints toward schisms in the leadership. I don’t want BW to hold back on a Qunari PC for too long. The longer we go without a Qunari protag, the more players are going to build up a fanon concept of Qunari society that’ll be hard to shake once confronted with canon. Already, the Trespasser codices by Qunari tend to be dismissed out of hand, because players are so attached to the Qunari/Chantry propaganda visions of Qunari society. Do thise codices reveal anything particularly interesting? Because the Qunari characters I speak to in-game do not do a good job of selling their society to me. Yeah that’s exactly what the problem is. Both the Chantry and the Qunari themselves benefit from portraying Qunari society as extremely unified. So it’s mainly in codices where they’re talking to other Qunari - not outsiders - where we can see division and discussion. Ex: the Darvaraad notes. I’m not suggesting their society is good overall (it’s not), but I’d rather see their flaws from an insider perspective, vs. having to infer them from Qunari and Chantry propaganda. The current situation is uncomfortably similar to reading English-speaking authors’ ideas of China. Always treating the people as one passive, unquestioning blob. Where if you read translated Chinese authors, they still talk about flaws, but in a more nuanced and detailed way than “lol Chinese people are childlike, submissive robots... and of course these flavors of authoritarianism would never work on strong, independent Westerners”. Not only are Qunari “the other”, but they’re othered in almost exactly the same way my family’s culture is. That’s probably the main reason I have a soft spot for them.
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Elvis Has Left The Building
7794
0
Oct 31, 2020 23:57:02 GMT
8,066
pessimistpanda
3,804
Apr 18, 2017 15:57:34 GMT
April 2017
pessimistpanda
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 7, 2019 15:09:36 GMT
Do thise codices reveal anything particularly interesting? Because the Qunari characters I speak to in-game do not do a good job of selling their society to me. Yeah that’s exactly what the problem is. Both the Chantry and the Qunari themselves benefit from portraying Qunari society as extremely unified. So it’s mainly in codices where they’re talking to other Qunari - not outsiders - where we can see division and discussion. Ex: the Darvaraad notes. I’m not suggesting their society is good overall (it’s not), but I’d rather see their flaws from an insider perspective, vs. having to infer them from Qunari and Chantry propaganda. The current situation is uncomfortably similar to reading English-speaking authors’ ideas of China. Always treating the people as one passive, unquestioning blob. Where if you read translated Chinese authors, they still talk about flaws, but in a more nuanced and detailed way than “lol Chinese people are childlike, submissive robots... and of course these flavors of authoritarianism would never work on strong, independent Westerners”. Not only are Qunari “the other”, but they’re othered in almost exactly the same way my family’s culture is. That’s probably the main reason I have a soft spot for them. Yeah, that makes sense. The entire language and logic of the Qun is set up to create an illusion of unity, but there MUST be division, because Qunari turn Tal-Vashoth ALL THE TIME.
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∯ Oh Loredy...
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Mar 28, 2024 16:27:05 GMT
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gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 7, 2019 19:09:12 GMT
They’ve recently been under attack by Venatori cultists, which could have fairly severe effects on the civilian population. Where did that come from? Was it some codex or War Table mission in DAI (or Trespasser) that I missed? As I understand it, sneaking onto Par Vollen is a very difficult endeavour as intruders are quickly spotted. Obviously Seheron is a different matter but given how much trouble the official Tevinter representatives have caused, why would Venatori be noticeably any different? So it’s mainly in codices where they’re talking to other Qunari - not outsiders - where we can see division and discussion. Ex: the Darvaraad notes. In most societies there will be an element of discontent, however controlling that society is. The thing is that whilst Tallis and Gatt think that by staying in the Qun it might be possible to change those elements they dislike, the structure of the society would seem to make that almost impossible, at least on Par Vollen where the majority of citizens have never been exposed to outside influences. The greatest number of defections seem to be on Seheron, which is hardly surprising given the situation there. I am speaking of those originally brought up under the Qun of course, not converts elsewhere, as on Tallis' list, who became agents and then thought better of it later.
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Champion of Kirkwall
1212
0
8,023
Sifr
3,737
Aug 25, 2016 20:05:11 GMT
August 2016
sifr
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Sifr on Sept 7, 2019 19:28:25 GMT
Yeah, that makes sense. The entire language and logic of the Qun is set up to create an illusion of unity, but there MUST be division, because Qunari turn Tal-Vashoth ALL THE TIME. And yet even that ultimately is to the benefit of the Qunari, because anyone likely to become Tal-Vashoth will either end up reeducated or expunged from their ranks, leaving those who remain (theoretically) more unified as a result.
It is one of the reasons I suspect the Qunari actually created the Tal-Vashoth, as a means to get rid of those who would disrupt the Qun by providing them a rebel faction to join. And conversely, fear of becoming a mindless Tal-Vashoth is a very effective means of control that keeps the rest of the Qunari in line, if the knee-jerk reaction of Sten and Bull are anything to go by.
If I were Ben-Hassrath, I'd have agents infiltrate the Tal-Vastoth ranks so they could manipulate and control the various cells into remaining separate and disorganised. This prevents the Tal-Vashoth from ever banding together and posing a threat to the rest of the Qunari. To ensure the Tal-Vashtoh remain unaware of their manipulation, every now and again a victory would be allowed, as it's better to sacrifice a few Qunari to ensure that the rest remain safe.
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∯ Oh Loredy...
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Mar 28, 2024 16:27:05 GMT
26,625
gervaise21
10,745
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 7, 2019 19:28:34 GMT
Plus, their internal political situation seems to be getting complicated recently - we only see flashes, but there are plenty of hints toward schisms in the leadership. I don't know about schisms. There may be disagreements about they way certain matters should be dealt with but not enough to appreciably affect the overall structure of the society. For example, it was Sten's idea back when he was a junior officer that they should direct their efforts towards information gathering before they made another attempt on conquest of the mainland. This was a direct challenge to the authority of the Arishok of that time and caused much argument before the Arishok dismissed the idea as ridiculous. Yet after he was deposed it would seem that the leadership had taken on board Sten's ideas as it was subsequent to this that they deployed agents like Iron Bull, Tallis and Gatt across the south. This was even before Sten was appointed as Arishok, following the disgrace of the one who came to Kirkwall (who had succeeded the one Sten had disagreed with), so clearly they are open to new ideas but it may take a while for them to be implemented and in this case it was related to how to spread the Qun effectively rather than actually change the structure of society itself.
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0
Jun 17, 2017 17:29:55 GMT
3,700
arvaarad
1,465
Mar 18, 2017 16:32:40 GMT
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Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire
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Post by arvaarad on Sept 7, 2019 19:43:42 GMT
Yeah, that makes sense. The entire language and logic of the Qun is set up to create an illusion of unity, but there MUST be division, because Qunari turn Tal-Vashoth ALL THE TIME. And yet even that ultimately is to the benefit of the Qunari, because anyone likely to become Tal-Vashoth will either end up reeducated or expunged from their ranks, leaving those who remain (theoretically) more unified as a result.
It is one of the reasons I suspect the Qunari actually created the Tal-Vashoth, as a means to get rid of those who would disrupt the Qun by providing them a rebel faction to join. As shown by the knee-jerk reaction of Sten and Bull, the fear of becoming a mindless Tal-Vashoth is a very effective means of control that keeps the rest of the Qunari in line.
If I were Ben-Hassrath, I'd have agents infiltrate the Tal-Vastoth ranks so they could manipulate and control the various cells into remaining separate and disorganised. This prevents the Tal-Vashoth from ever banding together and posing a threat to the rest of the Qunari. To ensure the Tal-Vashtoh remain unaware of their manipulation, every now and again a victory would be allowed, as it's better to sacrifice a few Qunari to ensure that the rest remain safe.
I tend to lean towards assuming that stuff like that is unintentional, and the causality goes backwards. In other words, it’s not that power corrupts, it’s that power finds the people/societies that are already corrupt. Where “corrupt” means “doing stuff that happens to accumulate power within the current system”. I think there’s a real danger to viewing fanatics, for example, as people who are cynically performing their beliefs so they can maintain their power. They’re often true believers - but they’re true believers in a worldview that happened to gain them power. It’s sort of a natural selection of ideas. Ideas that are good at attracting power, regardless of their truth value, tend to get elevated.
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Mar 28, 2024 16:27:05 GMT
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10,745
August 2016
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 7, 2019 19:45:22 GMT
Yeah, that makes sense. The entire language and logic of the Qun is set up to create an illusion of unity, but there MUST be division, because Qunari turn Tal-Vashoth ALL THE TIME. We do not know how much of this is propaganda by those outside the Qun. The Qunari turn Tal-Vashoth frequently on Seheron but that is because of the situation there and mostly from the ranks of the military. There is also a lot of burn out there as well, which is what happened to Iron Bull. How many turn Tal-Vashoth on Par Vollen? I would imagine very few. Those who rebel and try to leave are simply killed or re-educated but whilst there may be a degree of discontent in any society, I doubt there are many who actually want to leave because they have never known anything else and are shielded from outside influences. Since the majority are civilians, they will never have the opportunity to see other societies, like the soldiers and spies do. It is one of the reasons I suspect the Qunari actually created the Tal-Vashoth, as a means to get rid of those who would disrupt the Qun by providing them a rebel faction to join. Whilst they may not have deliberately created them, since they seem to prefer to eradicate them if they can, they probably do find them useful propaganda to keep the rest of the population in line because, as you say, they make a great play on how savage the Tal-Vashoth are, which is reinforced by the fact that many of the Tal-Vashoth attack Qunari settlements. However, you could be right that some of these attacks are actually encouraged by agents in Tal-Vashoth ranks in order to perpetuate the idea that they are little better than savage beasts.
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Champion of Kirkwall
1212
0
8,023
Sifr
3,737
Aug 25, 2016 20:05:11 GMT
August 2016
sifr
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Sifr on Sept 8, 2019 7:54:39 GMT
In other words, it’s not that power corrupts, it’s that power finds the people/societies that are already corrupt. Where “corrupt” means “doing stuff that happens to accumulate power within the current system”. I think there’s a real danger to viewing fanatics, for example, as people who are cynically performing their beliefs so they can maintain their power. They’re often true believers - but they’re true believers in a worldview that happened to gain them power. It’s sort of a natural selection of ideas. Ideas that are good at attracting power, regardless of their truth value, tend to get elevated. The Viddasala in Trespasser is a great example of this, fanatical in her belief in the Qun, but willing to break many of it's rules and central tenets, if it will ultimately serve the spread of the Qun across Thedas in the long run. In many ways, she could be seen as the Qunari equivalent of Petrice from DA2.
The Arishok on the other hand, never struck me as someone who acted only in the interests of maintaining or advancing his power, as his attack on Kirkwall was more driven by frustration than anything else. For a soldier, used to carrying out orders and being able to remain always in control of the situation, being forced to remain idle, unable to fulfill his duty while forced to remain in a chaotic mire like Kirkwall, was more than he could handle.
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