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Post by arvaarad on Sept 8, 2019 13:30:05 GMT
In other words, it’s not that power corrupts, it’s that power finds the people/societies that are already corrupt. Where “corrupt” means “doing stuff that happens to accumulate power within the current system”. I think there’s a real danger to viewing fanatics, for example, as people who are cynically performing their beliefs so they can maintain their power. They’re often true believers - but they’re true believers in a worldview that happened to gain them power. It’s sort of a natural selection of ideas. Ideas that are good at attracting power, regardless of their truth value, tend to get elevated. The Viddasala in Trespasser is a great example of this, fanatical in her belief in the Qun, but willing to break many of it's rules and central tenets, if it will ultimately serve the spread of the Qun across Thedas in the long run. In many ways, she could be seen as the Qunari equivalent of Petrice from DA2.
The Arishok on the other hand, never struck me as someone who acted only in the interests of maintaining or advancing his power, as his attack on Kirkwall was more driven by frustration than anything else. For a soldier, used to carrying out orders and being able to remain always in control of the situation, being forced to remain idle, unable to fulfill his duty while forced to remain in a chaotic mire like Kirkwall, was more than he could handle.
Yep. And he saw a lot of the city’s abuses up close, since only the very desperate (usually elves) would defect to the Qunari. ...he was also pounding wine. Seriously, next time you play DA2, circle behind his throne, there’s a huge stack of bottles hidden behind it. Given that Fenris was also from a similar area of Thedas, I wonder if they might have a slightly different/worse relationship to alcohol in that region.
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Post by vertigomez on Sept 8, 2019 19:17:01 GMT
Given that Fenris was also from a similar area of Thedas, I wonder if they might have a slightly different/worse relationship to alcohol in that region. Dorian likes his drink, too, and mentioned that his mom did too. Could just be that the stresses associated with Tevinter, Seheron, not living up to the standards of the Qun/Tevinter society, PTSD from the ongoing war and slavery and unravelling of one's beliefs just gets to people over time. But then we see lots of drunk people in the alienage in Denerim, in Orzammar, in Kirkwall.... I think Thedas is just a stressful and miserable place and people drink a lot to cope. Lol.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 8, 2019 23:51:02 GMT
Well, back then in our own history people didn't just drink alcohol to get drunk but instead it was a source of nourishment and was among the safer things to ingest. Whether Bioware is treating alcohol the same way in Thedas I don't know, but it might explain why everyone in Thedas seems to drink it.
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Post by vertigomez on Sept 8, 2019 23:57:50 GMT
Well, back then in our own history people didn't just drink alcohol to get drunk but instead it was a source of nourishment and was among the safer things to ingest. Whether Bioware is treating alcohol the same way in Thedas I don't know, but it might explain why everyone in Thedas seems to drink it. I think that's part of it too, but I think arvaarad was asking about more about alcoholism; not just that everyone seems to do it but that they seem to do it in excess. Of course, it's hard to tell in a video game. IRL that vast majority of people I've met drink to some extent but are not alcoholics. 😛
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 9, 2019 0:00:52 GMT
Well, back then in our own history people didn't just drink alcohol to get drunk but instead it was a source of nourishment and was among the safer things to ingest. Whether Bioware is treating alcohol the same way in Thedas I don't know, but it might explain why everyone in Thedas seems to drink it. I think that's part of it too, but I think arvaarad was asking about more about alcholism; not just that everyone seems to do it but that they seem to do it in excess. Of course, it's hard to tell in a video game. IRL that vast majority of people I've met drink to some extent but are not alcoholics. 😛 Ah, okay. In that case I agree with you two how like today it is probably because of stressor drowning out memories and so on. I will say that is one peeve I have about Bioware games is that they assume everyone does certain things when making their games, like drink.
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Post by phoray on Sept 9, 2019 0:14:48 GMT
everyone does certain things when making their games, like drink. And have religion (Hawke)
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 9, 2019 0:17:43 GMT
everyone does certain things when making their games, like drink. And have religion (Hawke) To be fair, they at least addressed that in DAI with being able to choose what if any religion your character believed in. Meanwhile with other things it's either you have no say in the matter or you do but you act like a total jerk if you choose something other than what Bioware wants.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 9, 2019 10:25:04 GMT
Meanwhile with other things it's either you have no say in the matter or you do but you act like a total jerk if you choose something other than what Bioware wants. Yes, it irritated me no end that if you decline to get drunk with Iron Bull he disapproves. I would have thought someone as discerning as he claimed to be would know that some people just don't drink and that making them feel they have to in order not to offend him isn't a particularly friendly thing to do. Why couldn't there have been a response where they were willing to drink with him but they opted for something non alcoholic? Both Fenris and Dorian seem to abuse alcohol (not the same as being alcoholic) in order to cope with their mental demons but I hadn't realised that the Arishok did as well. Of course may be drinking alcohol is considered normal among the Qun for the reason you gave, it is considered safer than water at least when in areas outside of their control, like Kirkwall. Since he was based in an area adjacent to the docks at the bottom of the city I should imagine the water supply there was very dodgy. His mental state wouldn't have been helped by the fact that he was surrounded by so much chaos that he was powerless to control. That seems to be what happens to their representatives on Seheron that stay there too long. It says in WoT2 that the Ben-Hassrath considered 2 years was the maximum amount of time that one of their agents could normally spend on Seheron before the stress of the job rendered them too unstable to carry out their duties effectively. By the time the Arishok cracked he had been in Kirkwall 3 years and given what was going on in the city, that was something that might have been anticipated. I often wonder why the other two members of the Triumvirate left him isolated there for so long. For some reason Rasaan had not accompanied him on the original mission, which is odd considering the importance of the item he was sent to recover and the diplomatic nature of the venture. However, when he became stranded in Kirkwall, which would seem even more of a situation that required her skills, she still remained in Qunandar. It is said this is because the Arishok was unwilling to call for aid from Par Vollen but once it became clear he was not returning any time soon, surely she should have joined him regardless of whether he asked her to or not, since that was her role in the Qun? In any case, since she was answerable to the Ariqun, she could have ordered it if she wished. So it almost makes me think that they regarded his situation as a test of his fitness to continue as Arishok. (Of course the real reason Rasaan wasn't there is that DG hadn't invented her until after DA2 came out)
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Post by vertigomez on Sept 10, 2019 16:48:06 GMT
I was poking around this old survey from the Dragon Age subreddit, and noticed they had statistics (user-submitted ones from that corner of the Internet only, but still) for the most popular romances for female and male qunari Inquisitors: I'd have thought Bull would be higher for both - at least second place! Also interesting that both f/f options won out over either het option for female Adaar.
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Post by arvaarad on Oct 1, 2019 2:15:04 GMT
I was poking around this old survey from the Dragon Age subreddit, and noticed they had statistics (user-submitted ones from that corner of the Internet only, but still) for the most popular romances for female and male qunari Inquisitors: I'd have thought Bull would be higher for both - at least second place! Also interesting that both f/f options won out over either het option for female Adaar. None of my PCs romanced Bull. But I’m hoping we get another capital-Q Qunari LI option in DA4. For me, Bull’s lack of appeal had nothing to do with being Qunari and everything to do with being overly cocky to the point that it’s unsexy. I know they were trying to go for a James Bond vibe, but James Bond is kind of a fratty a-hole lol. Make no mistake, I think his character was executed well. I just personally hated him.
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Post by vertigomez on Oct 1, 2019 4:07:05 GMT
I was poking around this old survey from the Dragon Age subreddit, and noticed they had statistics (user-submitted ones from that corner of the Internet only, but still) for the most popular romances for female and male qunari Inquisitors: I'd have thought Bull would be higher for both - at least second place! Also interesting that both f/f options won out over either het option for female Adaar. None of my PCs romanced Bull. But I’m hoping we get another capital-Q Qunari LI option in DA4. For me, Bull’s lack of appeal had nothing to do with being Qunari and everything to do with being overly cocky to the point that it’s unsexy. I know they were trying to go for a James Bond vibe, but James Bond is kind of a fratty a-hole lol. Make no mistake, I think his character was executed well. I just personally hated him. That's fair. I find Bull as sweet as a marshmallow and incredibly intelligent, which is attractive, but alas, so far I just love Sera too much to romance anyone else. I never got James Bond vibes from Bull. But he's still on the list because I adore him as a character! After Sten and Bull, though, I'm hoping for a Tal-Vashoth who starts off Tal-Vashoth and stays that way. Wouldn't mind a capital-Q Qunari too, though maybe a viddathari like Gatt? 🤔 Bit hard to romance someone who comes from a society where romantic relationships as we understand them aren't really a thing, as a romance with Qun-loyal Bull demonstrates.
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Post by arvaarad on Oct 1, 2019 14:34:15 GMT
After Sten and Bull, though, I'm hoping for a Tal-Vashoth who starts off Tal-Vashoth and stays that way. Wouldn't mind a capital-Q Qunari too, though maybe a viddathari like Gatt? 🤔 Bit hard to romance someone who comes from a society where romantic relationships as we understand them aren't really a thing, as a romance with Qun-loyal Bull demonstrates. What a great reason to see another Qunari LI! We’ve only seen Bull’s interpretation of romance, which was built largely by observing the bas concept of romance. But it’s also possible to find something unnameable within one’s current system — not by observing it, but by creating it. And it sometimes even addresses a gap that isn’t served in wider society. The closest analogue I can think of is the weirdly high proportion of gender-nonconforming AFAB Boomers and Gen X-ers in Evangelical Christianity. Because makeup and revealing clothing are both kind of frowned upon, there ended up being this odd situation where people who wouldn’t have been accepted as trans (even in wider society, at the time) could alleviate some of the dysphoria under the banner of “oh I’m just a really devout Christian who isn’t tempting men with my looks.” And, if they were attracted to men, they were conveniently surrounded by men who found “good, modest Christian women [sic]” attractive. In Evangelicalism, during that time, the idea of being nonbinary or trans men was so far off the radar that it wasn’t even forbidden — it was unintelligible. But nonetheless, they were able to carve out this strange, nameless space for themselves. I find that creation process really interesting, and would like to see similar processes happening within the Qun. Obviously gender identity isn’t a big deal for them, so it would likely be something around romantic relationships or gender roles.
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Post by revelationeffect on Oct 1, 2019 23:03:24 GMT
After Sten and Bull, though, I'm hoping for a Tal-Vashoth who starts off Tal-Vashoth and stays that way. Wouldn't mind a capital-Q Qunari too, though maybe a viddathari like Gatt? 🤔 Bit hard to romance someone who comes from a society where romantic relationships as we understand them aren't really a thing, as a romance with Qun-loyal Bull demonstrates. What a great reason to see another Qunari LI! We’ve only seen Bull’s interpretation of romance, which was built largely by observing the bas concept of romance. But it’s also possible to find something unnameable within one’s current system — not by observing it, but by creating it. And it sometimes even addresses a gap that isn’t served in wider society. The closest analogue I can think of is the weirdly high proportion of gender-nonconforming AFAB Boomers and Gen X-ers in Evangelical Christianity. Because makeup and revealing clothing are both kind of frowned upon, there ended up being this odd situation where people who wouldn’t have been accepted as trans (even in wider society, at the time) could alleviate some of the dysphoria under the banner of “oh I’m just a really devout Christian who isn’t tempting men with my looks.” And, if they were attracted to men, they were conveniently surrounded by men who found “good, modest Christian women [sic]” attractive. In Evangelicalism, during that time, the idea of being nonbinary or trans men was so far off the radar that it wasn’t even forbidden — it was unintelligible. But nonetheless, they were able to carve out this strange, nameless space for themselves. I find that creation process really interesting, and would like to see similar processes happening within the Qun. Obviously gender identity isn’t a big deal for them, so it would likely be something around romantic relationships or gender roles. That’d be really interesting to see. They could get a good amount of mileage out of exploration of people finding liminal or divergent spaces in which to express their identity if they did that, given that it’s all but a guarantee that Maevaris will be around in some capacity.
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Post by Iddy on Oct 2, 2019 11:45:51 GMT
None of my PCs romanced Bull. But I’m hoping we get another capital-Q Qunari LI option in DA4. For me, Bull’s lack of appeal had nothing to do with being Qunari and everything to do with being overly cocky to the point that it’s unsexy. I know they were trying to go for a James Bond vibe, but James Bond is kind of a fratty a-hole lol. Make no mistake, I think his character was executed well. I just personally hated him. That's fair. I find Bull as sweet as a marshmallow and incredibly intelligent, which is attractive, but alas, so far I just love Sera too much to romance anyone else. I never got James Bond vibes from Bull. But he's still on the list because I adore him as a character! After Sten and Bull, though, I'm hoping for a Tal-Vashoth who starts off Tal-Vashoth and stays that way. Wouldn't mind a capital-Q Qunari too, though maybe a viddathari like Gatt? 🤔 Bit hard to romance someone who comes from a society where romantic relationships as we understand them aren't really a thing, as a romance with Qun-loyal Bull demonstrates. I guess that's the natural progression First we had a pure Qunari who follows the Qun to the letter, then we had a conflicted Qunari who isn't sure if he wants to be Qunari or a mercenary, and now it would be a staunch Tal-Vashoth.
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Post by Iddy on Nov 9, 2019 17:08:55 GMT
Anyone here ever played a male Qunari with the British voice?
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 23, 2020 18:03:59 GMT
Thought I would revive this thread by asking Qunari fans how they feel about the situation as depicted in Tevinter Nights or do you feel that is spoiler territory that shouldn't be covered here?
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Post by vertigomez on Apr 23, 2020 19:28:01 GMT
Thought I would revive this thread by asking Qunari fans how they feel about the situation as depicted in Tevinter Nights or do you feel that is spoiler territory that shouldn't be covered here? How'd you know I was thinking of necroing this thread today? Only speaking for myself, but.... I'm thrilled. In Three Trees to Midnight we got a little more insight into qamek and its effects. The fact that the Qunari are in/near Arlathan forest is interesting. They're probably there for supplies (lumber from the trees, etc.) and establishing another foothold for the invasion more than anything, but given everything that happened with the Viddasala and eluvians in Trespasser, as well as the theory that Ghilan'nain created the Qunari as elf/dragon hybrids, I think there's an undercurrent of discovery in their presence there. (Whether they know that or just The Plot does, who knows.)
And of course, the Ben-Hassrath vs. the Antaam. SO EXCITING. What the fuck, Sten. I'm so fascinated by this fracturing. Even Gatt talked about it a little bit, but just as a possibility, during Bull's quest. But to see that it's for sure a thing has got me dancing in my seat. Can't wait to explore that.
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Post by witchcocktor on Apr 24, 2020 4:34:35 GMT
I'm quite excited about the internal struggles but I'm also hoping there's more to it than antaam feeling like they are not fulfilling their role as warriors and soldiers and getting anxious about that, thus they fight back against orders just so they can fill the role they were given.
Antaam is really scary though, and they are doing some work. Honestly Tevinter Nights painted them as a huge threat, and a very sadistic, cruel one at that.
With all the Qun goodness we are going to get, I hope we'll get more information on tal-vashoth and vashoth culture and lifestyle in general, if it exists at all. I mean surely it has to?
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 24, 2020 18:02:22 GMT
I was pleased by the signs that the Qunari will play a major part in the next game but just slightly disturbed by some of the revelations in Three Trees to Midnight and the Blue Wraith comic for that matter.
Whilst I could never support the Qun in its entirety, I could see positive aspects and I did respect them. This dates back to DAO and Sten but also the Arishok in DA2. It was always my understanding he didn't blow his top because he wasn't fulfilling his function as a soldier but because of the situation in Kirkwall, which he couldn't tolerate any more. Of course what was never satisfactorily explained was why he appeared to have been abandoned by the other members of the Triumverate in that initial 2 year period and why, if Rasaan is normally meant to be with the Arishok at all times, she wasn't with him on the journey south and didn't join him in Kirkwall? WoT2 says that the Arishok was unwilling to call for aid from Par Vollen but that shouldn't have prevented the Rasaan from fulfilling her purpose.
However, what really disturbs me about the Antaam acting out of kilter with the leadership in Par Vollen is that the strategy that has been followed for the previous two decades (and possibly longer) with regard to Tevinter was actually Sten's idea when he was only a junior officer. So is it a rogue section of the Antaam who have turned against the Arishok? Or was Sten demoted for some reason and the new Arishok had different ideas? Or was Sten assassinated by agents of Tevinter? Now that would explain a lot.
Also the suggestion that they are planning on breaking the Llomerryn Accord. That makes absolutely no sense strategically. Strike hard against Tevinter and unbalance an already fractured Imperium in order to finally conquer them might work provided they concentrate their efforts there, although there is nothing like a traditional enemy to bring the Magisterium together on this, but to potentially bring the south in on the side of Tevinter, which invading Antiva would pretty much guarantee, seems a waste of a century and a half of diplomacy to prevent that happening. Yes, Sten warned the Warden, and Iron Bull the Inquisitor, that it would likely happen one day but only when the time is right.
So I would like a good explanation in game of what has been going on within the Qun that has the Antaam acting in the way it is.
As a side note, I'd mention that the Ben-Hassrath are the Qunari spy network and Secret Police within their own society, enforcing the law of the Qun. It seems to me they were doing a piss poor job if they weren't aware the Antaam was going rogue and weren't able to execute the mutineer leaders before the ships ever left Par Vollen, where the majority of their forces are based, or alternatively Seheron.
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Post by phoray on Apr 24, 2020 18:42:13 GMT
Re Reddit chart
Maybe people who were trying Qunari were trying the same sex romance their naturally het selves couldn't/didn't opt for the first time around. There were a lot of women who wanted Dorian, so they had to try a different gender, they may as well experience being a horned giant as well
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Post by phoray on Apr 28, 2020 2:02:19 GMT
I'm only two pages into the first Tevinter Nights story. There is just nothing redeemable about the Qunari to me at this point, not that I'd been particularly sympathetic before.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 28, 2020 2:37:02 GMT
I'm only two pages into the first Tevinter Nights story. There is just nothing redeemable about the Qunari to me at this point, not that I'd been particularly sympathetic before. Yeah, if I have one complaint about the recent stuff it’s how they seem to have gotten rid of the grey of the Qunari and replaced it with just being morally black. My guess is so that it’ll be easier to sympathize with Tevinter after painting them as bad for three games, but that gives me concerns about how that conflict will be handled in DA4.
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Post by witchcocktor on Apr 28, 2020 7:12:28 GMT
I'm only two pages into the first Tevinter Nights story. There is just nothing redeemable about the Qunari to me at this point, not that I'd been particularly sympathetic before. It truly feels like that way. I feel like Dragon Age has for so long painted Qun as oppressive bad guys that when DA4 comes around and we MAYBE get some kind of '' wait a minute maybe it's not ALL bad '' it's not going to feel genuine.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Apr 28, 2020 7:40:05 GMT
Sorry I'm late. I missed the Qunari Appreciation Station Relocation Proclamation.
I was on Vacation.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 28, 2020 11:48:41 GMT
It truly feels like that way. I feel like Dragon Age has for so long painted Qun as oppressive bad guys that when DA4 comes around and we MAYBE get some kind of '' wait a minute maybe it's not ALL bad '' it's not going to feel genuine. I think it may be something along the lines of the Antaam being the bad guys that need to be stopped but the Ben-Hassrath will working with us to do so. In that way they hope to keep the grey area thing going.
It is an absolute nonsense of course and reminds me of how the Dalish started to be depicted as the bad guys in Masked Empire, which takes some doing when you consider they were being compared with Celene, Gaspard and Briala. Then in DAI they started to introduce all sorts of illogical thinking on their part, such as their attitude to mages, which made them seem worse than the Circles and Chantry. Finally culminating in JoH in placing the blame for the fall of the Dales fully on the shoulders of the Dalish leadership when previously it had been open to doubt and making them collectively seem like idiots with the revelations in Trespasser about their own history, of which apparently they were in total ignorance.
So it does not bode well for the Qun and how their culture is going to be mangled from how it was previously depicted. Mind you I always wondered what happened to their wonderful armour as described in Origins and felt that the Qunari statues and furniture that were depicted in the DLC Spoils of the Qunari did not really fit with the practical culture that had previously been described. After all it was more ostentatious and overblown than that of Orlais.
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