ahglock
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: ShinobiKillfist
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Post by ahglock on Dec 26, 2018 21:17:30 GMT
Okay I'm replaying MEA and as I come across things that bother me that are kind of a bioware norm I'm bringing them up as things I hope they fix.
Right now I'm freeing the MoShi or however her name is spelled. And you get the decision blow the place or free some angaran. Now you are on a figurative clock so I understand you can't get all the information you need or want. But, how many angaran will I free? The entire facility, just who we came across so far, 10,20, 100, 1000? How many people do they kidnap for this joint weekly, how long do we think it will take to rebuild, if we have enough control to free people, why can't we hold it long enough to free people and then blow it up, if we just free people can we come back or was the code we used a once in a lifetime lucky break?
This is actually one of the better ones IMO as like I said you kind of are on the clock but SAM was in their system, I should be able to know how many people we are freeing vs how many people are left to become Kett at least. And I suspect keeping it somewhat vague makes it more discussion worthy for the fans. But far too often its so vague I feel like i'm picking a choice at random as opposed to make a decision.
So basically I'm asking for the player to be given at least the option to get more information so the decision they make feels more like a rational choice instead of a coin flip.
And this is ignoring the obvious 3rd solution not an option issues like with the Rachni in ME1, um hold her in place for the galactic council to decide... But, hey one issue at a time.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Dec 26, 2018 21:46:54 GMT
You have the information you need to make an impulsive decision. That's the situation you were in. Breaking down the exact figures would only lead to a more clearcut choice, which ironically would reduce the impact of the decision.
The fact is any choice you make in the game will ultimately be "game-y" (certainly on the second playthrough and/or if you use online resources) when you have more information in your hands, as there's only so much they can do.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Dec 26, 2018 23:04:41 GMT
You can't always have all the information you need to make the "right" decision. That's life. I see no problem with limiting information to the player/PC in those scenarios.
For DAI, I strongly disagree with those that say reading The Masked Empire is required for the Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts mission. No, it's not. The Inquisitor doesn't know those things. The Inquisitor is being asked to make a choice based on the information presented in the game, just like the Warden was asked the same in Orzammar.
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ahglock
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by ahglock on Dec 26, 2018 23:50:41 GMT
You have the information you need to make an impulsive decision. That's the situation you were in. Breaking down the exact figures would only lead to a more clearcut choice, which ironically would reduce the impact of the decision. The fact is any choice you make in the game will ultimately be "game-y" (certainly on the second playthrough and/or if you use online resources) when you have more information in your hands, as there's only so much they can do. You don't have the information that you should have based on the situation. And as I pointed out this was one of the better ones due to them writing in a time constraint. Many times they don't have reinforcements showing up any minute or whatever so there is no reason you don't at least ask a few questions first. I mainly feel like the character is just too dumb to even ask questions. And I acknowledged they don't want to give you too much information, the problem is they give you almost 0 information. They could just start the conversation out do you want to make the renegade choice or the paragon one with 0 setup and I feel the decision would be as well thought out.
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ahglock
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: ShinobiKillfist
Posts: 2,858 Likes: 3,466
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Post by ahglock on Dec 26, 2018 23:57:06 GMT
You can't always have all the information you need to make the "right" decision. That's life. I see no problem with limiting information to the player/PC in those scenarios. For DAI, I strongly disagree with those that say reading The Masked Empire is required for the Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts mission. No, it's not. The Inquisitor doesn't know those things. The Inquisitor is being asked to make a choice based on the information presented in the game, just like the Warden was asked the same in Orzammar. But, you shouldn't limit the information more than you'd logically have. Sam should know how many pods were filled he already scanned through them all and found out the Moshi was gone, and you should know how many resistance ships could arrive to pick them up as the dudes in the facility are in contact with the resistance base. My issue isn't making a perfect right decision based on all the information, its that too frequently so little information is given you really aren't making a decision, its just a random choice no more profound that any of the tone based choices.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Dec 27, 2018 1:04:42 GMT
But, you shouldn't limit the information more than you'd logically have. Sam should know how many pods were filled he already scanned through them all and found out the Moshi was gone, and you should know how many resistance ships could arrive to pick them up as the dudes in the facility are in contact with the resistance base. My issue isn't making a perfect right decision based on all the information, its that too frequently so little information is given you really aren't making a decision, its just a random choice no more profound that any of the tone based choices. You know this is the Dragon Age forum, right? Sure, your remarks about SAM make sense for MEA and that particular situation. But not every scenario is going to have such circumstances, certainly not a Dragon Age game. If we're to discuss the issue as a whole, characters making choices with limited information, you have to consider all scenarios, not just certain ones. Even so, with that particular MEA choice, I thought it was clear that you're deciding the fate of some angara -- even if it's 1000 -- and the entire angaran race + the entire galaxy. So it's needs of the many, and all that. In that case, I think your argument falls down. It doesn't matter what SAM said when the stakes were that high.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 27, 2018 1:12:59 GMT
Okay I'm replaying MEA and as I come across things that bother me that are kind of a bioware norm I'm bringing them up as things I hope they fix.
Right now I'm freeing the MoShi or however her name is spelled. And you get the decision blow the place or free some angaran. Now you are on a figurative clock so I understand you can't get all the information you need or want. But, how many angaran will I free? The entire facility, just who we came across so far, 10,20, 100, 1000? How many people do they kidnap for this joint weekly, how long do we think it will take to rebuild, if we have enough control to free people, why can't we hold it long enough to free people and then blow it up, if we just free people can we come back or was the code we used a once in a lifetime lucky break?
This is actually one of the better ones IMO as like I said you kind of are on the clock but SAM was in their system, I should be able to know how many people we are freeing vs how many people are left to become Kett at least. And I suspect keeping it somewhat vague makes it more discussion worthy for the fans. But far too often its so vague I feel like i'm picking a choice at random as opposed to make a decision.
So basically I'm asking for the player to be given at least the option to get more information so the decision they make feels more like a rational choice instead of a coin flip.
And this is ignoring the obvious 3rd solution not an option issues like with the Rachni in ME1, um hold her in place for the galactic council to decide... But, hey one issue at a time. Good point on the whole thing about them rebuilding the base, it did occur to me too as being one possible problem to blow it up. I mean sure more information to make a choice is always a good thing but as far as the plot of Andromeda is concerned...or any BioWare game for that matter...all that is really neccessary for us is to have enough information to make an informed decision about the consequences that might result from that choice. So for the choice with the base primarily effects your relationship with the Moshai and Jaal. Blow the base up please her, piss him off, if you keep the base vice versa...sadly I am not sure if there were any consequences beyond that.
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ahglock
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by ahglock on Dec 27, 2018 1:39:36 GMT
But, you shouldn't limit the information more than you'd logically have. Sam should know how many pods were filled he already scanned through them all and found out the Moshi was gone, and you should know how many resistance ships could arrive to pick them up as the dudes in the facility are in contact with the resistance base. My issue isn't making a perfect right decision based on all the information, its that too frequently so little information is given you really aren't making a decision, its just a random choice no more profound that any of the tone based choices. You know this is the Dragon Age forum, right? Sure, your remarks about SAM make sense for MEA and that particular situation. But not every scenario is going to have such circumstances, certainly not a Dragon Age game. If we're to discuss the issue as a whole, characters making choices with limited information, you have to consider all scenarios, not just certain ones. Even so, with that particular MEA choice, I thought it was clear that you're deciding the fate of some angara -- even if it's 1000 -- and the entire angaran race + the entire galaxy. So it's needs of the many, and all that. In that case, I think your argument falls down. It doesn't matter what SAM said when the stakes were that high. Sure, its the dragon age forum. But the people who made MEA make dragonage. I'm taking experiences from their previous games and extrapolating potential issues for me in the dragonage game. I'd use a DAI example but its been a long time since I last played it so the memory isn't fresh. Whereas I was in the midst of playing MEA again so I had an example. And um, I never got the impression it was the fate of the entire angaran race/galaxy. My impression that this was one base among many. I wasn't even sure which answer served the needs of the many.
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ahglock
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by ahglock on Dec 27, 2018 1:45:28 GMT
Okay I'm replaying MEA and as I come across things that bother me that are kind of a bioware norm I'm bringing them up as things I hope they fix.
Right now I'm freeing the MoShi or however her name is spelled. And you get the decision blow the place or free some angaran. Now you are on a figurative clock so I understand you can't get all the information you need or want. But, how many angaran will I free? The entire facility, just who we came across so far, 10,20, 100, 1000? How many people do they kidnap for this joint weekly, how long do we think it will take to rebuild, if we have enough control to free people, why can't we hold it long enough to free people and then blow it up, if we just free people can we come back or was the code we used a once in a lifetime lucky break?
This is actually one of the better ones IMO as like I said you kind of are on the clock but SAM was in their system, I should be able to know how many people we are freeing vs how many people are left to become Kett at least. And I suspect keeping it somewhat vague makes it more discussion worthy for the fans. But far too often its so vague I feel like i'm picking a choice at random as opposed to make a decision.
So basically I'm asking for the player to be given at least the option to get more information so the decision they make feels more like a rational choice instead of a coin flip.
And this is ignoring the obvious 3rd solution not an option issues like with the Rachni in ME1, um hold her in place for the galactic council to decide... But, hey one issue at a time. Good point on the whole thing about them rebuilding the base, it did occur to me too as being one possible problem to blow it up. I mean sure more information to make a choice is always a good thing but as far as the plot of Andromeda is concerned...or any BioWare game for that matter...all that is really neccessary for us is to have enough information to make an informed decision about the consequences that might result from that choice. So for the choice with the base primarily effects your relationship with the Moshai and Jaal. Blow the base up please her, piss him off, if you keep the base vice versa...sadly I am not sure if there were any consequences beyond that. That's true for the purpose of the game it doesn't really matter. But for me it is a role-play issue. As for consequences my understanding is if you save the angara on your escape fight you have a few more anagara pitching in. I don't think anything goes past that. Which is true for many of these choices and when they do continue its usually really minor. I get pretty focused on the role-play aspects of the game so actually having enough information to make a decision instead of a coin toss or basic nice/mean choice is more satisfying to me.
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Post by Ieldra on Dec 27, 2018 7:04:41 GMT
I don't mind incomplete information as long as I have the information I should reasonably have. What I mind much more is limiting the possible set of choices to extreme ones just for controversy, especially if there are reasonable and obvious alternatives. I also mind a setup obviously contrived to create such limitations. Basically, if I can think of an option within seconds of being presented with the decision and it comes across as reasonable within the time frame I have and considering the information I have, then excluding it feels artificial. I think often writers are too much concerned with the thematic and symbolic impact of the decisions they present, and disregard strategic ones, which is unpleasant for those players who don't like to make decisions as they feel, but for actual projected outcomes within the world, as far as they can estimate them.
And lastly, I really hate decisions obviously contrived to make a specific philosophical/moral position appear to be the only good one, for instance, by always making it so that consequences unknowable in advance turn out to be bad if you decide against the preferred position. The MET was really bad in this regard. I suspect they knew this was a problem when making MEA, and the solution was to make all decisions pretty much irrelevant if you consider the outcomes, but that's also unsatisfying. You can't avoid to piss off some players if you create noticeable consequences. The solution isn't to try to piss off no one, but to distribute the consequences within a set of decisions so that they feel somewhat natural, i.e. not giving preference to the same position always. Of course that means the left hand has to know what the right hand is doing in development...
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dmc1001
N7
Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by dmc1001 on Dec 27, 2018 14:49:11 GMT
So basically I'm asking for the player to be given at least the option to get more information so the decision they make feels more like a rational choice instead of a coin flip. I hope this is done by giving the PC the ability to ask questions. There were so many times Shepard, in particular, could not respond to bullshit. There were lots that I could have said or asked but that would have prevented the plot from moving along the way BW wanted. I don't recall these same types of flaws in DA. That said, I haven't clocked as many hours into DA as ME. It's been 1057 hours across all DA games but 2787 hours on the MET (making the comparison to three games against three games) but could add another 353 from MEA. (Also, some more hours for ME1 and ME2 when I played on Steam. Same with DAO, I think.) My only point here is that my knowledge of DA games is less so maybe they do the same thing. I would love to see the protagonist be able to question things told.
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melbella
N6
Trouble-shooting Space Diva
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Post by melbella on Dec 28, 2018 2:07:28 GMT
I would love to see the protagonist be able to question things told. Not just this, but to also get an answer to the question asked. I don't know how many times I'd ask Solas something only for him to respond with a non-answer and then change the subject. For example, after the Winter Palace you can point blank ask him who are his people (since they apparently aren't elves) and he obfuscates because SPOILER. Same thing with Vivienne. When meeting her you can ask if she's Andrastian and her response is that she admired Justinia. Which is irrelevant!
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 28, 2018 5:21:54 GMT
Whenever I have to make a decision, I expect the proponents of each side to present a written thesis outlining their position, and the projected long-term socio-political and economic consequences of choosing in their favour.
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anarchy65
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Post by anarchy65 on Dec 28, 2018 14:20:36 GMT
I would actually prefer if my decision actually matters in the game. In the example you used, blow the place, free the angaran, whatever, it really won't matter not even a little bit.
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House Targaryen
N5
The night is dark and full of terrors, but the fire burns them all away.
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The night is dark and full of terrors, but the fire burns them all away.
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Post by House Targaryen on Dec 29, 2018 0:49:02 GMT
I'd prefer the advisors, if any, make the big decisions. I'd rather kill things and reap the rewards my advisors made for me.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Dec 29, 2018 2:34:23 GMT
Let's say it's 2. Does that really change your decision? Jaal gets pissed off at you no matter what the number is, if you don't save them. I think the Moshae would regret having even 1 other person sacrificed on her behalf, that's just who she is.
I actually disliked that decision in MEA, and trying to make this DA relevant, I hope they don't do that again in DA4. I wasn't sufficiently invested in either outcome to really care about the moral dilemma, and I thought Jaal acted way out of character for being so pissed off at me -- I saved your gd holy Moshae, didn't I?
If they do that in DA, really make it hurt. Sacrificing Hawke vs. Alistair, now that was a moral dilemma I could appreciate.
And here's a really unpopular idea -- connect gameplay with the moral dilemma, so that either decision you make hurts you in some way. Like, if you choose X, you lose access to the merchants in that faction for the rest of the game, but if you choose Y, you lose your best weapon and armor.
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Post by themikefest on Dec 29, 2018 13:29:57 GMT
When saving the moose, every playthrough I chose to destroy the facility, but one. That was to hear and see the difference. What I'm surprised about is that no one was carrying a rucksack full of explosives to be place throughout the facility as they searched it. Once they leave the facility, detonate the explosives destroying the facility.
The choice that bothered me is choosing to save the salarian or krogan. When a squadmate said that could be Drack's missing scouts I said to myself, What missing scouts? I had to look up on youtube to find out that the player learns about the missing scouts through randon banter while driving around in the nomad. In the next playthrough, I never got that dialogue. The only time the word scouts was mentioned is when talking with Drack after he got on the tempest. He never said anything about missing scouts. I find the choice lame. It was put there for the feels. I felt nothing. I chose the salarians. When I did speedruns, I did choose the krogan since it does make a difference in time.
In DAI, the choice of leaving Hawke or Warden in the fade was lame. The 3 companions run to exit the fade while Inquisitor, Hawke, and Warden decide to wait a moment before running to the exit. If Hawke survives, she/he decides to go to Weisshaupt to tell the Wardens what happened. Why? I guess it tooo much to ask to have one of the remaining Wardens to do that. I would have had Hawke return to Skyhold. She/he can have a few lines of dialogue, if the Inquisior wants to talk with them. When it comes time to fight Corypheus, Hawke can show up in a support role, like he/she did at Adamant, with Corypheus having a line a dialogue acknowledging Hawke's presence.
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wright1978
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Post by wright1978 on Dec 29, 2018 14:24:49 GMT
I have no issue with being made to make clear big decisions based on the info at hand. From memory i blew the facility. It would be interesting to have more detailed post mission info from people supporting/disagreeing with your decision.
One thing i can't stand is the likes of 'wicked eyes and wicked hearts' where aren't allowed to make clear choices without having been omniscient enough to stumble on a piece of info/allow enemy to win.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Dec 29, 2018 18:00:51 GMT
Well, put a powerful enough magnifying glass on any decision in any previous Bioware game and you'll find that it's lame in one way or another. But the same thing can be said about most other game decisions, or movie decisions, or TV decisions. They are all rigged and contrived to a certain degree. That's just proof that it's not easy to write an organic, realistic decision that's also dramatic and engaging.
So, of course these dilemmas are written to maximize feels. What else would they be for?
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