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Dec 31, 2018 15:37:45 GMT
Post by dmc1001 on Dec 31, 2018 15:37:45 GMT
In Legacy doubt is first cast on the Chantry's version when almost the first thing that Corypheus says on being freed is complain to Dumat "You offered the power of the gods themselves,” and then "It was meant to be Golden" suggesting that when he got there it was already Black. This is something interesting in and of itself. Okay, we have a Golden City which is where the Maker was supposed to exist. I suppose it would be some sort of "Heaven". Then we have a corrupt city know as the Black City. Is it possible this is some sort of "Hell"? The Magisters who entered the Black City came back with the Blight. In fact, this even goes along with the belief of the Grey Warders who say the Blight is a form of spiritual corruption. That would fall in line with magisters becoming corrupt after entering the Black City. Interestingly, it wasn't until after the Fifth Blight that sentient darkspawn appeared. Secondary commentary about the Blight. Grey Wardens are granted special abilities by ingesting, among other things, the blood of darkspawn and maybe a drop or two of Archdemon blood. According to the Architect, ingesting Grey Warden blood makes darkspawn immune to the Calling. Interesting that Grey Wardens and darkspawn alike get a Calling. All just food for thought. That said, we're seriously off-topic. I wonder if it wouldn't be worth it to have mods moves most this discussion to a new thread concerning the Blight.
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Dec 31, 2018 19:04:07 GMT
Post by gervaise21 on Dec 31, 2018 19:04:07 GMT
That would fall in line with magisters becoming corrupt after entering the Black City. Interestingly, it wasn't until after the Fifth Blight that sentient darkspawn appeared. Correction, sentient darkspawn first appeared immediately following the 1st Blight. That is when the Wardens were made aware of Corypheus around 12 years after the death of Dumat. What has never been explained is what Corypheus and Co were doing during the 200 years of the 1st Blight and why they only became apparent after it. The Wardens apparently discovered more than one intelligent darkspawn but Corypheus was considered the greatest of them. The Wardens managed to capture him but then found he had a disturbing influence on them, particularly their mages, and it was impossible for any of them to strike at him. After 10 years of study with no useful conclusions they decided the only answer was to shut him away where neither he, nor anyone else could escape. Now a dwarf encountered other intelligent darkspawn in the Deep Roads, one of which was quite civil to him but I am not sure of the timescale for this. Then the intelligent darkspawn seem to disappear from history, never playing any part in subsequent Blights until the Architect appeared on the scene and inadvertently triggered the 5th Blight by waking Urthemiel. This is pertinent to the discussion about Titans because darkspawn do seem to be repelled by their presence. Also just as the titans seem to have been forgotten to history, yet always present because of lyrium, so the intelligent darkspawn seem to have been forgotten even by the Wardens until forced back into their consciousness. There is also the link about the song that is emanated by lyrium, red lyrium and the arch-demon. Bartrand was sent mad when he could no longer hear the red lyrium song and the Mother went mad when the Architect cut her off from the song of the arch-demon, even though his action made her sentient. Other Disciples though appeared to be able to retain their sanity. At least so far as the arch-demon song is concerned there does seem to be a sort of hive mind connection that it makes with any tainted creature and it also seemed that also seems true of the titan and the sha-brytol and even modern dwarves can hear something of the song of the lyrium. It seems too much of a coincidence to me that we have all these examples of song that multiple beings can hear and for them not to be connected in some way.
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Dec 31, 2018 20:25:12 GMT
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 31, 2018 20:25:12 GMT
gervaise21 I think by sentient Darkspawn they meant actual Darkspawn rather than Ghouls like the corrupted Magisters like Corypheus and the Architect.
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Dec 31, 2018 22:23:30 GMT
Post by gervaise21 on Dec 31, 2018 22:23:30 GMT
I think by sentient Darkspawn they meant actual Darkspawn rather than Ghouls like the corrupted Magisters like Corypheus and the Architect. This is what I meant too. The timeline in World of Thedas specifically mentions when the Wardens first encountered Corypheus and the other intelligent darkspawn. However, the Disciples created by the Architect did only appear after the 5th Blight because that is when he came up with his "cure" for the calling. It is also odd that the Architect seems to have no memory of what he was before. So it is almost as though he fell into some sort of stasis for a millennia during which he lost his memory. This is why he contrasts so much with Corypheus, who was confused when he was first released from prison but pretty soon started to recover his memory of events.
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Jan 1, 2019 0:36:24 GMT
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Post by arvaarad on Jan 1, 2019 0:36:24 GMT
It is also odd that the Architect seems to have no memory of what he was before. So it is almost as though he fell into some sort of stasis for a millennia during which he lost his memory. Whenever you’re building something evil, the first thing you do is eliminate the architect.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Jan 1, 2019 1:51:34 GMT
Post by dmc1001 on Jan 1, 2019 1:51:34 GMT
Something I didn't know. According to the Dragon Age Wiki, the Architect was one of the magisters that entered the Black City. I'm surprised that didn't factor into DAI since Corypheus would have been the second of those magisters to appear. That means there are five more. Not sure which was Corypheus. Again, according to the wiki:
Conductor of the Choir of Silence <- Apparently Corypheus Architect of the Works of Beauty <- Obviously the Architect Watchman of Night Forgewright of Fire Appraiser of Slavery Augur of Mystery Madman of Chaos
I'd love to see the other five appear. DA4 almost seems like the perfect place. Maybe they could take over Tevinter in an attempt to fight Solas. They might need a great deal of lyrium, which could bring them into conflict with Titans.
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Post by OhDaniGirl on Jan 1, 2019 2:01:56 GMT
Something I didn't know. According to the Dragon Age Wiki, the Architect was one of the magisters that entered the Black City. I'm surprised that didn't factor into DAI since Corypheus would have been the second of those magisters to appear. That means there are five more. Not sure which was Corypheus. Again, according to the wiki: Conductor of the Choir of Silence <- Apparently Corypheus Architect of the Works of Beauty <- Obviously the Architect Watchman of Night Forgewright of Fire Appraiser of Slavery Augur of Mystery Madman of Chaos I'd love to see the other five appear. DA4 almost seems like the perfect place. Maybe they could take over Tevinter in an attempt to fight Solas. They might need a great deal of lyrium, which could bring them into conflict with Titans. I don't think we'll get to see them all. Apparently they are/were cannibalistic. I know at least one of them was eaten by another.
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Jan 1, 2019 3:20:52 GMT
Post by dmc1001 on Jan 1, 2019 3:20:52 GMT
Something I didn't know. According to the Dragon Age Wiki, the Architect was one of the magisters that entered the Black City. I'm surprised that didn't factor into DAI since Corypheus would have been the second of those magisters to appear. That means there are five more. Not sure which was Corypheus. Again, according to the wiki: Conductor of the Choir of Silence <- Apparently Corypheus Architect of the Works of Beauty <- Obviously the Architect Watchman of Night Forgewright of Fire Appraiser of Slavery Augur of Mystery Madman of Chaos I'd love to see the other five appear. DA4 almost seems like the perfect place. Maybe they could take over Tevinter in an attempt to fight Solas. They might need a great deal of lyrium, which could bring them into conflict with Titans. I don't think we'll get to see them all. Apparently they are/were cannibalistic. I know at least one of them was eaten by another. If Corypheus is anything to go by, death won't keep that magister down.
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Jan 1, 2019 4:01:21 GMT
Post by Sharable Horizon on Jan 1, 2019 4:01:21 GMT
Honestly, the Titans and how they relate to the forgotten ones and the Evanuris is one of my favourite Thedas mysteries. If I’m remembering correctly, isn’t there a line in trespasser where Solas says that the Evanuris in their greed do not know what they will unleash? I’m thinking that the Titans were originally part of a seal designed to keep the forgotten ones (the defeated party of an Elven civil war) sealed down below - imprisoned in the abyss. However, when they discovered the sheer source of power Lyrium could be, they slew one and began to mine its corpse, dismissive of the threat that they could be releasing. Fen’harel who could travel freely between the two sides, may have discovered that not only had the forgotten ones recovered their strength, they had thrived in the void and would cover the world in darkness. He brought this information to the only one of the Evanuris he could trust, Mythal, and she attempted to stop the weakening of the seal by stopping the rest of the “God’s” from slaying more Titans. However, greedy with the thought of limitless power, they slew her. This is when Solas made the Veil, in a last ditch attempt to stop the seal from breaking. The forgotten ones would not be stopped however. Sending their forces (the dark spawn) burrowing through the now still bodies of the Titans, they rose in an attempt to storm the surface. corrupting everything they touched with the fell magics of the Abyss. Still not sure how the old gods fit into my theory though. Maybe before he slumbered, Fen’harel set the old gods to slumber at different points throughout Thedas to draw the hordes of the dark spawn off from arising on mass on the surface by having them emit an irresistible song, using the old gods as a pressure valve to buy Thedas time, while he considered his next move. That’s my slightly drunken theory anyway! Really don’t think I’ve explained it very well, but hopefully you guys who are much more versed in the DA lore then I can discuss it / show me how wrong I am! Happy new year!
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Post by arvaarad on Jan 1, 2019 8:08:00 GMT
I’m thinking that the Titans were originally part of a seal designed to keep the forgotten ones (the defeated party of an Elven civil war) sealed down below - imprisoned in the abyss. However, when they discovered the sheer source of power Lyrium could be, they slew one and began to mine its corpse, dismissive of the threat that they could be releasing. Fen’harel who could travel freely between the two sides, may have discovered that not only had the forgotten ones recovered their strength, they had thrived in the void and would cover the world in darkness. He brought this information to the only one of the Evanuris he could trust, Mythal, and she attempted to stop the weakening of the seal by stopping the rest of the “God’s” from slaying more Titans. However, greedy with the thought of limitless power, they slew her. This is when Solas made the Veil, in a last ditch attempt to stop the seal from breaking. The forgotten ones would not be stopped however. Sending their forces (the dark spawn) burrowing through the now still bodies of the Titans, they rose in an attempt to storm the surface. corrupting everything they touched with the fell magics of the Abyss. I like it! I’m really fond of theories that cast the Void/Abyss as something other, older, even compared to the titans. I also love that, based on our current knowledge, the best candidates for the Forgotten Ones (if they are beneath the titans rather than being titans or spirits themselves) are the Scaled Ones. AKA literal Snake-Kings of the earth. This is explained in Ser Ycke's Pamphlets, of which I have read many, which explain things such as why the snake appears in Tevinter drawings, and how the Snake-Kings came to exist. (Crystals.) Did Moon Men have their Tevinter Allies keep the Reptilian Ones here, so they could interrogate them at their Leisure? None can say, but I will say yes as that would Fit My Theories.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 1, 2019 8:52:58 GMT
I'd love to see the other five appear. DA4 almost seems like the perfect place. I know at least one of them was eaten by another. Something that has occurred to me. The Architect admits to us in DAA that it was he that inadvertently started the 5th Blight through trying to communicate with Urthemiel, the arch-demon that lead the 5th Blight, which would actually have been the Architect's Old God, as he was the high priest of Urthemiel, also known as the Architect of the Works of Beauty. So what if other Blights were also started not simply by the darkspawn digging through to them but by the respective Magister Sidereal making contact with the Old God for whom they were high priest? We are told in WoT2 that Corypheus was captured using the corpse of Dumat, which he was attracted to, without it would seem him realising that his god was dead. Of course may be the god wasn't but just the dragon avatar of the god. After all Corypheus must have got his idea of splitting his soul with a dragon from somewhere. If the Old God dragons are really the split-soul counterpart of either set of elven gods, then it is also possible that when a Grey Warden slays them, it doesn't destroy the soul but frees it from the cycle of continually being reborn as a darkspawn, allowing it to return to the original being, thus making it whole once more. When we speak to Flemeth about OG Kieran she says that he carries the spirit of an ancient being that "was snatched from the jaws of darkness". So what if a Grey Warden killing the arch-demon allows the soul to travel to the Void and reunite with its god there? Alternatively, since the Dalish believe that Solas trapped the Creators in their heaven, the Eternal City, perhaps they are trapped there, where "they sleep, masked in a mirror" (behind an eluvian). However, as the city is Black, either they were the cause of the corruption or it did occur after their imprisonment, so they were then corrupted by the "darkness". Anyway, in addition to acquiring more power for herself, it is possible that Flemeth wanted to prevent this reunification because of the power it would give to her enemies, whereas holding their soul within herself could even mean that they could now be killed because their soul would travel to be absorbed by her. Then the reason Solas is so beside himself about the Grey Warden plot to kill the last two Old God dragons is that it would spoil this "plan" to defeat them. Whatever the case, there are two Old Gods that are yet to arise as arch-demons. I think that Razikale actually is sleeping under Minrathous because of a line in Calpernia's short story: "Putting her small ear against the crack, she heard something echoing from far below—a song, a sob, or a whisper, too distinct to be the wind and too eerie to be human. It lingered in her dreams long after." It is said ancient dreamers could hear the whisper of the Old Gods in their dreams and even non-dreamers like Corypheus could if we assume Dumat was communicating with him, so this could be what Calpernia could hear. Alternatively Minrathous is built over the sleeping corpse of a Titan but this seems unlikely considering the amount of magic that is daily being used around the place which you would think might disturb it. The other Old God is Lusacan and his high priest is The Watchman of the Night. I think he could definitely have a part to play in the Solas plot. These words were connected with a maul we find in DAI that was said to be dedicated to him: "Lusacan calls to you. He lives where it is darkest and waits for the day he will rise. Drink of his blood and know the power in darkness: either fear the Night or wield it." Darkness is definitely associated with both the Void and the Taint. Blight magic is very powerful. Red lyrium is tainted lyrium and lyrium is the blood of titans. Lusacan is associated with the constellation Tenebrium, which in modern parlance is called shadow but his is actually the god of darkness/night. It was also suspected that because the constellation is said to represent an Owl that it was really connected with Falon'Din. The following words are spoken about him: "Falon’Din had no fear of the night and would walk where the People could not live." I think we are going to find that it was Falon'Din who was able to withstand the Void (the place where the People could not live) and as god of the dead, every death only strengthens him. Could be a good argument to use to Solas to stop him killing millions of people.
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Post by arvaarad on Jan 1, 2019 17:36:38 GMT
If the Old God dragons are really the split-soul counterpart of either set of elven gods, then it is also possible that when a Grey Warden slays them, it doesn't destroy the soul but frees it from the cycle of continually being reborn as a darkspawn, allowing it to return to the original being, thus making it whole once more. When we speak to Flemeth about OG Kieran she says that he carries the spirit of an ancient being that "was snatched from the jaws of darkness". If being slain by a grey warden frees them with no caveats, there’d be no need for the dark ritual. I suspect they do get freed by getting killed, but it’s a Hakkon-style “rebirthing”. As with Hakkon or Wisdom, something new may grow there, and it almost certainly will, because the idea giving the spirit form is extremely strong. Indeed, the elven gods were very careful to make sure they were worshipped and remembered, because that’s their ticket to immortality. However, it’s still preferable to not die in the first place, because some of their memories and personality might shift in the transition. That was the whole point of killing Hakkon, right? To make him come back as less of an asshole. I assume the dark ritual helped prevent that — maybe it’s a guided rebirth, or a partial rebirth instead of a total one. And as a bonus, Mythal had more control over where the old god reappears, and can keep an eye on them.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 1, 2019 19:33:47 GMT
If being slain by a grey warden frees them with no caveats, there’d be no need for the dark ritual. The dark ritual is necessary because Flemeth/Mythal doesn't want the Old God soul freed to fly off wherever it goes. As you say, the dark ritual allows her to control where the soul goes and, as we discover, use it as she sees fit. She makes it sound like she was conducting a rescue mission to prevent it being taken by "the darkness" but that is likely only half the story. If it is the soul of one of the Creators it could be she wants to rescue it from the corruption, after all the other Creators are said to be her children, but it seems more likely that it is part of her plan to gain vengeance on those who murdered her. Indeed, the elven gods were very careful to make sure they were worshipped and remembered, because that’s their ticket to immortality. I suppose this could be the reason Solas is so pissed with the Dalish but what he needs to remember that they likely ensured Mythal's continued existence too. Her priesthood spent most of their time in uthenera, so it is unclear how much active worship was going on with them during the millennia, but the modern elves very much kept her memory alive, particularly as they would appeal to her probably more than any other as their mother and protector. It is noticeable that unlike Solas, Flemeth seemed to take an active interest in the Dalish and even helped them out from time to time, so I think Mythal did appreciate their efforts.
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Post by arvaarad on Jan 1, 2019 20:21:19 GMT
I suppose this could be the reason Solas is so pissed with the Dalish but what he needs to remember that they likely ensured Mythal's continued existence too. And why he’s so catty when he delivers that Jaws of Hakkon line. “Most people do.” Though his actual problem is less “everyone’s forgotten me” and more “if I die, I could literally reincarnate as a monstrous trickster wolf.” I find it endlessly entertaining when people think killing him is a smart idea for stopping the end of the world. Cool you’ve killed Loki, now we only have to deal with goddamned Fenrir instead.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 1, 2019 22:20:19 GMT
Though his actual problem is less “everyone’s forgotten me” and more “if I die, I could literally reincarnate as a monstrous trickster wolf.” This is a good point. The Dalish have remembered him but in this case remembering him wrong could have disastrous consequences. Still in their defence the elves in the Ancient Library didn't seem too fond of him as their world crashed around them. I've often wondered how they knew he was responsible. If they were his enemies surely he wouldn't have told them his plans in advance, so those poor elves suddenly finding the world literally disappearing from under their feet must have been some of his followers and thus among those friends he has sacrificed in the past whether intentionally or not.
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Jan 1, 2019 22:51:59 GMT
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Post by arvaarad on Jan 1, 2019 22:51:59 GMT
Though his actual problem is less “everyone’s forgotten me” and more “if I die, I could literally reincarnate as a monstrous trickster wolf.” This is a good point. The Dalish have remembered him but in this case remembering him wrong could have disastrous consequences. Still in their defence the elves in the Ancient Library didn't seem too fond of him as their world crashed around them. I've often wondered how they knew he was responsible. If they were his enemies surely he wouldn't have told them his plans in advance, so those poor elves suddenly finding the world literally disappearing from under their feet must have been some of his followers and thus among those friends he has sacrificed in the past whether intentionally or not. Maybe he advertised his involvement once his plan was unstoppable. Being famous is tidier than being infamous, but if you’re about to nap for a couple millennia and need to wake up on schedule, being infamous might help you rebuild your energy a bit faster. And unlike the infamy foisted on him by the evanuris, it would at least be accurate.
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Jan 2, 2019 9:42:43 GMT
Post by gervaise21 on Jan 2, 2019 9:42:43 GMT
Maybe he advertised his involvement once his plan was unstoppable. Being famous is tidier than being infamous, but if you’re about to nap for a couple millennia and need to wake up on schedule, being infamous might help you rebuild your energy a bit faster. And unlike the infamy foisted on him by the evanuris, it would at least be accurate. It seems more likely to me that those followers who didn't get killed in the immediate aftermath may have spread the story that Fen'Harel had successfully imprisoned the gods. The problem I have with the story as passed down to the Dalish is how accurate it is about who was responsible for the loss of the gods, yet it gets other details wholly wrong, according to what we see in Trespasser and Fen'Harel's own testimony. For example, the Dalish story says that the Creators trusted him enough that he was able to trick them into his trap. All the recent evidence suggests that trusting him was the last thing the Creators would have done, even if the Forgotten Ones did see him as an ally. They were specifically warning their people against trusting him before he shut them away. The Dalish attribute the destruction of their empire and loss of immortality to humans. Again, this seems odd if their world started to fall apart immediately upon the imprisonment of their gods. Why did they not simply blame Fen'Harel for everything, as those in the Ancient Library did? If, as seems likely, the majority of modern elves are descended from those loyal to the Evanuris, to whom Fen'Harel was the enemy, why lessen his culpability in their downfall? Why do the Dalish have an older folktale about a trickster warrior who fought against tyrants, that Orlesian scholars claim is the basis for the Canticle of Shartan, when according to Dalish lore they went from a situation of an elven sanctuary called Arlathan, where they still lived in peace and harmony even after the loss of the gods, to its destruction by the evil humans who then kept them enslaved until Shartan liberated them. Where is there room here for a different rebel against tyrants at an earlier time when the only trickster in their lore is not a hero but the malign Dread Wolf? If Solas says he only turned against the Evanuris after the death of Mythal, how come there is no recollection anywhere about her death outside of one Temple of Mythal? Surely elves across the empire would have been petitioning her help and not receiving any response. It seems such a momentous event that it would have been difficult to conceal it altogether. Unless it happened somewhere like the Deep Roads where the majority of elves did not have access. However, for the majority not to be aware of her death and the assumption made she was shut away with the rest of them, raising the Veil would have to have followed on the event fairly quickly. Still if you are going to the trouble of making sure the elves are aware of your actions in imprisoning the gods, why would you not also ensure they remember why?
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Post by arvaarad on Jan 2, 2019 12:58:25 GMT
Maybe he advertised his involvement once his plan was unstoppable. Being famous is tidier than being infamous, but if you’re about to nap for a couple millennia and need to wake up on schedule, being infamous might help you rebuild your energy a bit faster. And unlike the infamy foisted on him by the evanuris, it would at least be accurate. It seems more likely to me that those followers who didn't get killed in the immediate aftermath may have spread the story that Fen'Harel had successfully imprisoned the gods. The problem I have with the story as passed down to the Dalish is how accurate it is about who was responsible for the loss of the gods, yet it gets other details wholly wrong, according to what we see in Trespasser and Fen'Harel's own testimony. For example, the Dalish story says that the Creators trusted him enough that he was able to trick them into his trap. All the recent evidence suggests that trusting him was the last thing the Creators would have done, even if the Forgotten Ones did see him as an ally. They were specifically warning their people against trusting him before he shut them away. The Dalish attribute the destruction of their empire and loss of immortality to humans. Again, this seems odd if their world started to fall apart immediately upon the imprisonment of their gods. Why did they not simply blame Fen'Harel for everything, as those in the Ancient Library did? If, as seems likely, the majority of modern elves are descended from those loyal to the Evanuris, to whom Fen'Harel was the enemy, why lessen his culpability in their downfall? Why do the Dalish have an older folktale about a trickster warrior who fought against tyrants, that Orlesian scholars claim is the basis for the Canticle of Shartan, when according to Dalish lore they went from a situation of an elven sanctuary called Arlathan, where they still lived in peace and harmony even after the loss of the gods, to its destruction by the evil humans who then kept them enslaved until Shartan liberated them. Where is there room here for a different rebel against tyrants at an earlier time when the only trickster in their lore is not a hero but the malign Dread Wolf? If Solas says he only turned against the Evanuris after the death of Mythal, how come there is no recollection anywhere about her death outside of one Temple of Mythal? Surely elves across the empire would have been petitioning her help and not receiving any response. It seems such a momentous event that it would have been difficult to conceal it altogether. Unless it happened somewhere like the Deep Roads where the majority of elves did not have access. However, for the majority not to be aware of her death and the assumption made she was shut away with the rest of them, raising the Veil would have to have followed on the event fairly quickly. Still if you are going to the trouble of making sure the elves are aware of your actions in imprisoning the gods, why would you not also ensure they remember why? Give it long enough, and at least some of the elves would treat the stories as more metaphor than history. Not all, not even most, but enough to make them drift. For example, perhaps the first storyteller to blame humans for the loss of immortality was making a literary nod to Fen’Harel (common knowledge to the elves of their day), but over time that story got so popular that it eclipsed the other stories that had previously put it in context.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Jan 2, 2019 14:50:00 GMT
It's also possible that Solas raised the Veil, fell asleep, the Elvhen world fell apart, but no one noticed elves beginning to age and die of old age until decades or even centuries later, when humans coincidentally started showing up in Thedas. There's no reason to believe that the Quickening would have been an immediately obvious effect of the Veil being gone. Previously immortal beings might take time to show the signs of age, or to notice that going into Uthenera was rather more permanent than it used to be. Or, perhaps those born before the Veil was raised are still immortal (like Solas and Abelas), but those born after the Veil was raised are not. ( The codex attributed to Abelas might support both these possibilities.)
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Jan 2, 2019 15:10:06 GMT
Post by gervaise21 on Jan 2, 2019 15:10:06 GMT
Or, perhaps those born before the Veil was raised are still immortal (like Solas and Abelas), but those born after the Veil was raised are not. As you say, the evidence could point either way. When Abelas wakes up to fewer and fewer sentinels each time is this because they have simply been killed off by outside enemies or are they simply not waking up? Have Solas and Abelas only got a limited time left because they will start aging if they stay too longer outside uthenera? Those born after the Veil was raised are clearly different and that is why neither Solas nor Abelas recognise them as "true" elves. They probably do not have the same connection. Modern elves certainly don't seem to be able to use uthenera. Countless generations later is it even possible for them to be reconnected or have they grown too material? Just as a more human Cole is different from a more spiritual one. I would agree that if the main group in Arlathan Forest were merely sleeping out the years, only to wake when Tevinter disturbed them, then possibly they weren't aware of the Quickening until they weren't allowed to fall back to sleep, owing to Tevinter's prolonged campaign against them. However, if they had been sleeping out the years, then that points to them all being ancient type elves who only started to breed replacements after they were captured and these children were of course all born post Veil. I just feel that there had to have been other groups than just these two we know about. Did they all drop into Uthenera to wait out the years? Why? Did they know Fen'Haral intended to reverse his action? I suppose more likely they were hoping their gods would figure out a way to escape their prison. Then there is the story that they felt elves who came into contact with humans changed in mentality as well as physically. There is also the story about elves succumbing to human diseases. So I wonder if they did initially try to continue living in the world without gods but when they started dying from disease and old age, causing a profound change in outlook, there was a division between those who wished to continue to make a go of it and those who decided to retreat back into their strongholds and wait it out. Then something happened to the former group, probably inter-breeding and assimilation by their human neighbours, so their elven ancestry was no longer apparent and forgotten.
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Post by arvaarad on Jan 2, 2019 16:06:05 GMT
It's also possible that Solas raised the Veil, fell asleep, the Elvhen world fell apart, but no one noticed elves beginning to age and die of old age until decades or even centuries later, when humans coincidentally started showing up in Thedas. There's no reason to believe that the Quickening would have been an immediately obvious effect of the Veil being gone. Previously immortal beings might take time to show the signs of age, or to notice that going into Uthenera was rather more permanent than it used to be. Or, perhaps those born before the Veil was raised are still immortal (like Solas and Abelas), but those born after the Veil was raised are not. ( The codex attributed to Abelas might support both these possibilities.) This makes sense. Though it’s also making me consider a wilder possibility — maybe it wasn’t a coincidence. Maybe the survivors of the Veil had some Zathrian-style blood ritual going that allowed them to cheat death for a bit longer. Until the Tevinters learned blood magic and rumbled them. We know they learned blood magic from the Forbidden Ones, who had major bad blood (heh) with the ancient elves.
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Post by Walter Black on Jan 2, 2019 17:24:40 GMT
I’m still not sure if the blight is from elves, titans, or Something Else (insert spooky music), but supposing that it’s from the titans, where does the calling fit in? Is it a fundamental characteristic of the blight, or is it just traveling through the blight? i.e. I could imagine a situation where the blight is a titan defense mechanism, but the archdemons (who are likely at least elf-related, if not actual elven gods) are somehow transmitting through it. Or maybe the blight is from titans and they’re also controlling the calling for some purpose? I guess my other question is, if it’s only a titan defense mechanism, why does it make non-titans, including elves and dragons, so strong/immortal? Were the titans trying to bait more people into using it? IDK, seems like kind of a risky strategy to make mages ultra powerful when you’re fighting mage-kings. I have no answer for that. When I think about it, the "calling" doesn't seem to be just one voice offering unified directions. If it were, why would Darkspawn, Archdemons, Wardens, Corypheus, Meredith, mages and templars all react to it DIFFERENTLY? Whatever it is, I suspect it originates from the source of the Blight, whatever that may be. My money is on a titan, or multiple titans, because we saw in Descent that they already possess the ability to communicate with dwarves in some manner that we don't fully understand. From what little we saw of the Titans, I don't think they possess human-like intelligence. I suspect they operate purely on instinct. I don't believe that the Blight ITSELF possesses any sort of sentience. The closest real world analogy I can think of for how it behaves is some sort of parasitical fungus. I think it is essentially an auto-immune response of a titan/the very planet itself, or at least the continent of Thedas. Basically its function is to spread indiscriminately, wiping out/mutating the threat/infection (ie, all other living things), but beings with sufficient power and will can resist/control it to a degree (including using it to communicate, the way Corypheus and Archdemons do). White blood cells don't UNDERSTAND where a threat comes from, they automatically attack anything they perceive as harmful, and sometimes they are wrong.
Or maybe they aren't, who knows? Interesting. For the longest time I assumed the opposite, that the Blight was more akin to cancer.
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Jan 2, 2019 18:24:20 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2019 18:24:20 GMT
It's also possible that Solas raised the Veil, fell asleep, the Elvhen world fell apart, but no one noticed elves beginning to age and die of old age until decades or even centuries later, when humans coincidentally started showing up in Thedas. There's no reason to believe that the Quickening would have been an immediately obvious effect of the Veil being gone. Previously immortal beings might take time to show the signs of age, or to notice that going into Uthenera was rather more permanent than it used to be. Or, perhaps those born before the Veil was raised are still immortal (like Solas and Abelas), but those born after the Veil was raised are not. ( The codex attributed to Abelas might support both these possibilities.) This is kind of the theory I subscribe to. Solas talks about Abelas and Co. being "last of the true elves". What is a "true" elf though?
In my opinion, probably one who was born directly from the Fade - a spirit who deliberately took on form. Cole: They made bodies from the earth. And the earth was afraid (Titans it would appear, have/had the ability to feel and think). It fought back. But they made it forget. (the elves did something to the Titans, which affected their minds or hiveminds. I tend towards the theory that they were made Tranquil.)
Which begs the question is Cole technically a true elf, until he chooses human or spirit? I think so. He's crippled by the memories and emotions of the human he chose to take the form of, and on the edge of mad, but yes. Cole didn't need to eat or sleep the whole time he was in the in-between stage, so he still was sustained by the Fade. Solas is said to eat very little, and he didn't have a sleeping place in Skyhold, but rather seemed to sleep recreationally to seek out cultural anecdotes and history, while otherwise existing in the Fade and Waking with full consciousness, at will (according to Cole, he was in both places). Does being born after the Veil cause that state to be more difficult to adapt to, forcing the being to choose one or the other? Probably.
Thus, I think "true" elves can still exist as immortals, but the Veil makes it very difficult for them to initially form, and, if they are not perfected Dreamers, they will eventually die of Fade starvation (i.e. a normal mortal life).
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Post by ellehaym on Jan 2, 2019 19:04:41 GMT
What I find fascinating that according to Dwarven history, there were 7 brothers who founded the Dwarven Empire and that there's a total of 12 Great Thraigs in the height of their empire. 7 seems to be a recurring number. There are 7 old gods, 7 magisters, 7 gates of the black city 7 (if excluding murdered mythal and Solas) remaining Evanuris. Although, if you include Mythal, Solas and the rest of the known Forgotten Ones that will total to 12 Elvhen Gods and there were 12 Great Thaigs at one point, but I'm not sure if there's a connection or just a coincidence.
Makes me wonder if there are or were 7 ~ 12 Titans.
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Jan 2, 2019 19:53:30 GMT
Post by gervaise21 on Jan 2, 2019 19:53:30 GMT
Well in our world 7 is said to be a holy number. It is also linked to wisdom and perfection. So it is hardly surprising that the writers chose to make a similar connection in Thedas.
The original number of Creators was 7 - Ghilan'nain being a later addition to the pantheon and it is not clear now if Fen'Harel was ever officially one of them - he certainly denies it. As you say there were 7 Old Gods and the Golden/Black/Eternal City has 7 gates so whichever religion you follow (apart from the Chantry) there would seem one gate for each god. Obviously there were 7 Magisters Sidereal because they are said to have been the high-priests of the Old Gods.
How many titans would I suppose depend on how big they actually are. However, if they are literally the Pillars of the Earth then that would suggest rather more than 12 to cover the entirety of Thedas. Then again, if you were going simply by the number of titans that the Evanuris subdued that could be 7. Or if each of the Great Thaigs was linked to a titan, then that would suggest 12.
Something that interests me though is what exactly is the mineral that the dwarves mine? Is it dried titan blood? Or since it is nearer the surface than the titan we found, is it more akin to the cells of the outer skin that have sloughed off? It appears to be a blue/green crystal when they mine it, whereas in its pure blood form it is silver.
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