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Post by ahglock on Feb 18, 2019 23:44:21 GMT
Sounds like indoctrination to me. j/k Why would you be kidding? It absolutely sounds like indoctrination. Because while there are similarities and in my mind it is the only way a look we are all at peace setting makes sense, I do not believe that was the writers intent. I think they were going for that after school special if we all are connected and understood each other we would all get along nonsense, instead of a once I really get to know a wide range of people you'd be repulsed and want to kill them more.
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 18, 2019 23:51:14 GMT
Destroy should have taken out the Citadel and the relays under any circumstances. Obviously geth and EDI are also destroyed, unless there was yet again another rogue faction of the geth who believed the consensus was superior to individuality (which would kind of be interesting to see in a game). Control is the least magic but also the absolute creepiest. Synthesis is the one that only works if it's some fairy tale that grandfather told to his grandson. Of course, the kids gonna be like "ain't no green shit running through my veins". I'm not sure, the destroy ending seemed to be targeting synthetics not just reaper tech, so maybe all of the keepers would die but was the citadel itself primarily synthetic? I agree control is creepy as hell. And synthesis is fairy tale crap. True on Destroy. We don't know how it works regarding synthetics. It sucks about EDI but she was willing to die to defeat the Reapers. If the geth were truly willing to fight to destroy the Reapers they had to know the losses could be incredible. And so they were. I wonder if they would have survived as a consensus when being upgraded to individuals ended them.
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 18, 2019 23:52:23 GMT
Why would you be kidding? It absolutely sounds like indoctrination. Because while there are similarities and in my mind it is the only way a look we are all at peace setting makes sense, I do not believe that was the writers intent. I think they were going for that after school special if we all are connected and understood each other we would all get along nonsense, instead of a once I really get to know a wide range of people you'd be repulsed and want to kill them more. So we become the ultimate SJW . Sorry, can't help it.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 18, 2019 23:57:31 GMT
Before she said that the Reapers were repulsive. Now it seems she is grateful the Reapers are helping the galaxy rebuild. Then there's the "reach a level of existence I cannot even imagine" line, which harps on the "pinnacle of evolution" the Reapers have been saying. Something's not quite right. Of course, EDI falls in line with the people who think the Reapers are completely forgiven for massacring a number of organics for which we can't come up with a number. And, no, killing in self-defense and the defense of trillions of others does not constitute a war crime. It constitutes heroism. Uh-huh, sure it doesn’t. Next you’ll say Sherman’s March, the firebombing campaigns on cities like Tokyo and Dresden, etc were heroic too since that argument was used for those.
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Post by griffith82 on Feb 19, 2019 0:28:35 GMT
Sounds like indoctrination to me. j/k Why would you be kidding? It absolutely sounds like indoctrination. It's not though.
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 19, 2019 0:36:03 GMT
Of course, EDI falls in line with the people who think the Reapers are completely forgiven for massacring a number of organics for which we can't come up with a number. And, no, killing in self-defense and the defense of trillions of others does not constitute a war crime. It constitutes heroism. Uh-huh, sure it doesn’t. Next you’ll say Sherman’s March, the firebombing campaigns on cities like Tokyo and Dresden, etc were heroic too since that argument was used for those. I don't think you understand the difference between the total annihilation of the galaxy or just, you know, not.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 19, 2019 0:47:09 GMT
Uh-huh, sure it doesn’t. Next you’ll say Sherman’s March, the firebombing campaigns on cities like Tokyo and Dresden, etc were heroic too since that argument was used for those. I don't think you understand the difference between the total annihilation of the galaxy or just, you know, not. I understand that perfectly well. I also understand there were other options, rather than discarding them because of a hate drive, screw the consequences.
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 19, 2019 1:53:48 GMT
I don't think you understand the difference between the total annihilation of the galaxy or just, you know, not. I understand that perfectly well. I also understand there were other options, rather than discarding them because of a hate drive, screw the consequences. I find Synthesis unrealistic. If I were Shepard standing there I'd have to assume the Catalyst was lying. Things like "final evolution" and "robots are now alive" in a more or less organic sense. The examples I would have to draw from in regard to Synthesis are the Reapers themselves. The liquefied remains of entire races powering up a shell. That's what I'd think the Catalyst was after and wouldn't it be smooth of it to convince Shepard to turn humanity into a new Reaper? Whatever the outcome might really be (and you know I have issues with the "Space Magic" aspect, even setting Reaper kill count aside) there's no way that I, as the protagonist, could buy into what the Catalyst was saying. Not without being indoctrinated.
Control, I'll grant you that. It would be the "life saver" of the three. Sure, the Reapers would be enslaved for eternity, but at least they wouldn't be dead. Even Shepard could understand the logic behind why this one could make sense. I find it creepy as hell, but that's a personal preference.
Destroy? Incontrovertibly removes the Reaper threat. Forever.
When I look at the three I can't draw any solid conclusion than to follow the path that I, as a soldier dedicated to defending humanity and (as a Spectre) the galaxy, but to end the threat in the most permanent and definitive way possible. If you're dead set on saving the geth and EDI, Control is your way because it doesn't seem as thought the Catalyst is trying to convince you to liquefy humanity and just kill off the rest of the organics.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 19, 2019 2:01:11 GMT
I understand that perfectly well. I also understand there were other options, rather than discarding them because of a hate drive, screw the consequences. I find Synthesis unrealistic. If I were Shepard standing there I'd have to assume the Catalyst was lying. Things like "final evolution" and "robots are now alive" in a more or less organic sense. The examples I would have to draw from in regard to Synthesis are the Reapers themselves. The liquefied remains of entire races powering up a shell. That's what I'd think the Catalyst was after and wouldn't it be smooth of it to convince Shepard to turn humanity into a new Reaper? Whatever the outcome might really be (and you know I have issues with the "Space Magic" aspect, even setting Reaper kill count aside) there's no way that I, as the protagonist, could buy into what the Catalyst was saying. Not without being indoctrinated.
Control, I'll grant you that. It would be the "life saver" of the three. Sure, the Reapers would be enslaved for eternity, but at least they wouldn't be dead. Even Shepard could understand the logic behind why this one could make sense. I find it creepy as hell, but that's a personal preference.
Destroy? Incontrovertibly removes the Reaper threat. Forever.
When I look at the three I can't draw any solid conclusion than to follow the path that I, as a soldier dedicated to defending humanity and (as a Spectre) the galaxy, but to end the threat in the most permanent and definitive way possible. If you're dead set on saving the geth and EDI, Control is your way because it doesn't seem as thought the Catalyst is trying to convince you to liquefy humanity and just kill off the rest of the organics.
I understand that point. Again my big issue with the argument wasn't the choice you made but rather the double standards in your argument about why you chose it(Reapers commit genocide=deserve death, Shepard commits genocide=deserves no repercussions). Though I will say it is interesting you assume that the Catalyst is lying about Synthesis and yet is being completely truthful about "Hey, shoot the thing you made to kill us and it will work. Trust me." If any ending would be a deception from the Catalyst, it would be that one. *Shepard shoots the tube, ruining the Crucible and dying in the explosion* Catalyst: "...well, that's over with. Alright everyone, back to work."
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 19, 2019 2:11:06 GMT
I find Synthesis unrealistic. If I were Shepard standing there I'd have to assume the Catalyst was lying. Things like "final evolution" and "robots are now alive" in a more or less organic sense. The examples I would have to draw from in regard to Synthesis are the Reapers themselves. The liquefied remains of entire races powering up a shell. That's what I'd think the Catalyst was after and wouldn't it be smooth of it to convince Shepard to turn humanity into a new Reaper? Whatever the outcome might really be (and you know I have issues with the "Space Magic" aspect, even setting Reaper kill count aside) there's no way that I, as the protagonist, could buy into what the Catalyst was saying. Not without being indoctrinated.
Control, I'll grant you that. It would be the "life saver" of the three. Sure, the Reapers would be enslaved for eternity, but at least they wouldn't be dead. Even Shepard could understand the logic behind why this one could make sense. I find it creepy as hell, but that's a personal preference.
Destroy? Incontrovertibly removes the Reaper threat. Forever.
When I look at the three I can't draw any solid conclusion than to follow the path that I, as a soldier dedicated to defending humanity and (as a Spectre) the galaxy, but to end the threat in the most permanent and definitive way possible. If you're dead set on saving the geth and EDI, Control is your way because it doesn't seem as thought the Catalyst is trying to convince you to liquefy humanity and just kill off the rest of the organics.
I understand that point. Again my big issue with the argument wasn't the choice you made but rather the double standards in your argument about why you chose it(Reapers commit genocide=deserve death, Shepard commits genocide=deserves no repercussions). Though I will say it is interesting you assume that the Catalyst is lying about Synthesis and yet is being completely truthful about "Hey, shoot the thing you made to kill us and it will work. Trust me." If any ending would be a deception from the Catalyst, it would be that one. *Shepard shoots the tube, ruining the Crucible and dying in the explosion* Catalyst: "...well, that's over with. Alright everyone, back to work." I guess so. The Catalyst is untrustworthy in general. From an outside perspective, I know that Destroy might be the only option depending on your choices in the game. Also, while I might not trust the Catalyst, I might trust the races that came before who created the Crucible. I doubt they had any plan other than to destroy the Reapers. Hence, any choice other than that could seem like a deception. However, as you say, it might be less that the Crucible could be used that way and more that the Catalyst could be lying about how to make it happen.
Yes, I know my arguments boiled down to revenge. I spent too many hours arguing with gothpunkboy on the subject and brought up all of my arguments there. I just brought it done to this single data point lately. Also, gothpunkboy used what we did in game to make conclusions about how we are in RL, that we don't care about the poor or other races and stuff of that nature.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 19, 2019 2:12:51 GMT
I understand that point. Again my big issue with the argument wasn't the choice you made but rather the double standards in your argument about why you chose it(Reapers commit genocide=deserve death, Shepard commits genocide=deserves no repercussions). Though I will say it is interesting you assume that the Catalyst is lying about Synthesis and yet is being completely truthful about "Hey, shoot the thing you made to kill us and it will work. Trust me." If any ending would be a deception from the Catalyst, it would be that one. *Shepard shoots the tube, ruining the Crucible and dying in the explosion* Catalyst: "...well, that's over with. Alright everyone, back to work." I guess so. The Catalyst is untrustworthy in general. From an outside perspective, I know that Destroy might be the only option depending on your choices in the game. Also, while I might not trust the Catalyst, I might trust the races that came before who created the Crucible. I doubt they had any plan other than to destroy the Reapers. Hence, any choice other than that could seem like a deception. However, as you say, it might be less that the Crucible could be used that way and more that the Catalyst could be lying about how to make it happen.
Yes, I know my arguments boiled down to revenge. I spent too many hours arguing with gothpunkboy on the subject and brought up all of my arguments there. I just brought it done to this single data point lately. Also, gothpunkboy used what we did in game to make conclusions about how we are in RL, that we don't care about the poor or other races and stuff of that nature.
Ah, I remember those kinds of posts from them.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2019 2:53:52 GMT
Sounds like indoctrination to me. j/k Why would you be kidding? It absolutely sounds like indoctrination. It certainly does. So does control. It's the secondary choice, should the "ideal" solution of synthesis fail. And, as we gathered from our friend the Illusive Man who tried to control the Reapers, he was indoctrinated. So if you try to control the Reapers--Harbinger will be assuming direct control of this form.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 19, 2019 2:59:27 GMT
I find Synthesis unrealistic. The green is crap. The thing says its something that can't be forced yet its Shepard forcing it, if chosen. It butters up the green because it's the only one that has the thing still around, and of course it's toys. That's a no-go. Not mine. Mine would believe if she/he were to pick the blue, everyone would be looking over their shoulder wondering when/if the red beam of doom will be fired at them. And of course the reapers are still around. That's another no-go Red is the way to go. If any conflicts happen, let the galaxy deal with them. Don't need the reapers interfering.
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 19, 2019 5:22:51 GMT
Not mine. Mine would believe if she/he were to pick the blue, everyone would be looking over their shoulder wondering when/if the red beam of doom will be fired at them. And of course the reapers are still around. That's another no-go This was more like argument from the perspective of Hanako, who doesn't seem to be okay with the Reapers dying.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 19, 2019 6:18:54 GMT
Not mine. Mine would believe if she/he were to pick the blue, everyone would be looking over their shoulder wondering when/if the red beam of doom will be fired at them. And of course the reapers are still around. That's another no-go This was more like argument from the perspective of Hanako, who doesn't seem to be okay with the Reapers dying. I’m fine with the Reapers dying. My issue is the collateral cost required by that ending to achieve it.
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 19, 2019 6:25:48 GMT
This was more like argument from the perspective of Hanako, who doesn't seem to be okay with the Reapers dying. I’m fine with the Reapers dying. My issue is the collateral cost required by that ending to achieve it. That's part of why I use MEHEM. Plus, the ending scene with the LI.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 19, 2019 16:45:59 GMT
I understand that point. Again my big issue with the argument wasn't the choice you made but rather the double standards in your argument about why you chose it(Reapers commit genocide=deserve death, Shepard commits genocide=deserves no repercussions). Though I will say it is interesting you assume that the Catalyst is lying about Synthesis and yet is being completely truthful about "Hey, shoot the thing you made to kill us and it will work. Trust me." If any ending would be a deception from the Catalyst, it would be that one. *Shepard shoots the tube, ruining the Crucible and dying in the explosion* Catalyst: "...well, that's over with. Alright everyone, back to work." I guess so. The Catalyst is untrustworthy in general. From an outside perspective, I know that Destroy might be the only option depending on your choices in the game. Also, while I might not trust the Catalyst, I might trust the races that came before who created the Crucible. I doubt they had any plan other than to destroy the Reapers. Hence, any choice other than that could seem like a deception. However, as you say, it might be less that the Crucible could be used that way and more that the Catalyst could be lying about how to make it happen.
Yes, I know my arguments boiled down to revenge. I spent too many hours arguing with gothpunkboy on the subject and brought up all of my arguments there. I just brought it done to this single data point lately. Also, gothpunkboy used what we did in game to make conclusions about how we are in RL, that we don't care about the poor or other races and stuff of that nature.
Right. The problem isn't really trusting or not trusting the Catalyst. The problem is that one needs need to apply the same standard to all the options. The endpoint of believing in deception is Refuse, not Destroy. As for revenge, if that's how you roll, that's fine. But this means your real position is that genocide is sometimes good and sometimes deserved, not that destroying the Reapers isn't genocide. (Although it's not at all clear how the Reapers can deserve or not deserve anything, since they're not responsible for their own creation and design.) And Destroy Shepard doesn't deserve execution because we really hate the Reapers. (Man, I'm so tempted to Godwin this.....) The Crucible situation strikes me as being best suited to pure utilitarian analysis. The situation is unlikely to ever come up again, or anything close to it, so whatever set of rules we want can just have this as an exception.
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Post by ahglock on Feb 19, 2019 17:11:29 GMT
Yeah I always assume the starbrat is telling the truth as it sees it. My issue is if the Reapers are still around they are still a threat even assuming everything it said is true. Synthesis what is the next issue starbrat has to protect the galaxy from in its mandate to protect all life. The Krogans reproductive rate, given its problem solving skills what will its solution be kill all life capable of reproduction, aging is a big threat its solution to put everyone in cryo for eternity. It is a known defective all powerful AI with a mandate to protect all life which it comes up with crazy illogical solutions for.
Control, do I trust me with all powerful might? Doubt it. Admittedly I do like the idea of control, fly all the reapers including myself into the sun as a solution to all problems. But, would I do it or would I on the way to the Sun say, hmm you know the batarians whats left of they still practice slavery and I remember what they did to my home colony, fuck those guys, and then after that say hmmI'm sure there is some other "good" I can accomplish before I fly into a sun, I'll totally do that in the future. But in the odd game where I let the Geth live in the first place, I can see it as a way to avoid killing them off.
Destroy is the only option that stops the known all powerful threat to all life cold. Every other one stops the current crisis but leaves the door open for a future reaper oriented one, and quite frankly those crises seem pretty damn likely unlike unknown aliens form beyond or whatever other galaxy ending threat never popped up in the last 10,000 years suddenly manifesting. Which we could have solved if had kept the reapers around.
As an aside with synthesis it dials space magic too infinity, where as the other options only dial it to 11. So I find synthesis unpalatable even if I thought everything would work out in the long run. Also both control and synthesis ending slide shows give me creepy indoctrination vibes. I don't think it is intended and its not factored into my decision process, but it is creepy as hell having everyone galaxy wide be super peaceful suddenly with a sort of implication of permanent peace.
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 19, 2019 17:26:47 GMT
Synthesis what is the next issue starbrat has to protect the galaxy from in its mandate to protect all life. This is not, in fact, its mandate. It was charged with ending organic/synthetic conflict. That isn't the same as protecting all life. Honestly, there's no reason the all-powerful Reapers and/or Catalyst won't find other reasons to attack the lesser beings. Synthesis does not make everyone equal.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2019 18:20:18 GMT
I’m fine with the Reapers dying. My issue is the collateral cost required by that ending to achieve it. It was always going to be quite high.
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Post by ahglock on Feb 19, 2019 18:32:42 GMT
Synthesis what is the next issue starbrat has to protect the galaxy from in its mandate to protect all life. This is not, in fact, its mandate. It was charged with ending organic/synthetic conflict. That isn't the same as protecting all life. Honestly, there's no reason the all-powerful Reapers and/or Catalyst won't find other reasons to attack the lesser beings. Synthesis does not make everyone equal. He does mention a goal to preserve all life. Its not like we got his tech specs for the exact language of his commands and mandates. And where they are now is different as he admits those were his first commands but those failed so he altered his plans. Then he goes into a more generic preserve all life synthetic and organic, that he was created to resolve conflict. So we just don't know what conflict he decides he needs to preserve us form next. And yes, the reapers could just decide to take over or kill lesser beings at some point.
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Post by Phantom on Feb 19, 2019 18:43:35 GMT
Just curious, Do you guys want less Cerberus and More Reapers to Fight within ME3 Remake?
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guest@proboards.com
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2019 18:59:59 GMT
This is a remaster, not a remake.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 19, 2019 19:17:17 GMT
Just curious, Do you guys want less Cerberus and More Reapers to Fight within ME3 Remake? It would be interesting to see a huskified version of all of the races so more Reapers I suppose.
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Post by Phantom on Feb 19, 2019 19:25:47 GMT
Just curious, Do you guys want less Cerberus and More Reapers to Fight within ME3 Remake? It would be interesting to see a huskified version of all of the races so more Reapers I suppose. true and within the Remastered Trilogy, I have two factions that can be shot up that could replace Cerberus as an Reaper Faction as well.
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