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Post by Iakus on Mar 17, 2019 15:16:16 GMT
oh boys... still with IT? IT was a mean to and end, a way to show bioware that their ending was so confusing and unintelligible that even a surreal, unacceptable shitty-theory like IT could have been compatible with the ending. It's tragic how some people took it for the real ending. The real ending? There are at least 4 (post-EC) real endings to this game. Funny how people keep insisting it gets reduced to only one... destroy or else... that's the fan line here... and that's crap. Bioware wrote all of Mass Effect with enough vagueness to accommodate the various choices and roleplaying differences that people might want to use. They left a lot open to interpretation and head canon so that people could more freely model their Shepard into being different characters with different philosophies on life and beliefs. That's why, even after all these years and all this flack, Bioware hasn't officially discounted any of the possible interpretations of the endings and why they have said they wouldn't make one ending canon over the others.
The ending I've been describing is an interpretation; but it is not IT. Shepard is not indoctrinated, but in my ending, he/she is a person who believes in God (something he/she can expressly state in ME1). Mass Effect is NOT necessarily as agnostic as you apparently "cherish" it for being. It is vague, however, by intent so that it can be interpreted either way. I really hope that Bioware does NOT declare the destroy ending canon... buckling to the fans who, on one hand, say there cherish choice and on the other try to forfeit the choices made by everyone but themselves. It's no skin off the "destroy" crowd's back that the other endings exist... but somehow they seem to think it is. The franchise can continue without declaration of a canon ending to ME3. All that's required is for the 'destroy" crowd to back off just a little bit... and stop crucifying every other game Bioware has made since... even long before they release.
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Post by themikefest on Mar 17, 2019 15:35:33 GMT
Destroy had mass genocide? Nothing about destroy had genocide. But the geth are destroyed. Yeah? So what? Don't let them upload the code so that the quarians can destroy them. If it wasn't for reaper interference, the quarians might have destroyed the geth before Shepard showed up.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 17, 2019 16:38:23 GMT
Destroy had mass genocide? Nothing about destroy had genocide. But the geth are destroyed. Yeah? So what? Don't let them upload the code so that the quarians can destroy them. If it wasn't for reaper interference, the quarians might have destroyed the geth before Shepard showed up. This is exactly what it comes down to for me. The geth chose this path. They're a consensus that tried to be "human". EDI had no choice (but I'll sacrifice her anyway). The geth had plenty of choice.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2019 19:00:33 GMT
The real ending? There are at least 4 (post-EC) real endings to this game. Funny how people keep insisting it gets reduced to only one... destroy or else... that's the fan line here... and that's crap. Bioware wrote all of Mass Effect with enough vagueness to accommodate the various choices and roleplaying differences that people might want to use. They left a lot open to interpretation and head canon so that people could more freely model their Shepard into being different characters with different philosophies on life and beliefs. That's why, even after all these years and all this flack, Bioware hasn't officially discounted any of the possible interpretations of the endings and why they have said they wouldn't make one ending canon over the others.
The ending I've been describing is an interpretation; but it is not IT. Shepard is not indoctrinated, but in my ending, he/she is a person who believes in God (something he/she can expressly state in ME1). Mass Effect is NOT necessarily as agnostic as you apparently "cherish" it for being. It is vague, however, by intent so that it can be interpreted either way. I really hope that Bioware does NOT declare the destroy ending canon... buckling to the fans who, on one hand, say there cherish choice and on the other try to forfeit the choices made by everyone but themselves. It's no skin off the "destroy" crowd's back that the other endings exist... but somehow they seem to think it is. The franchise can continue without declaration of a canon ending to ME3. All that's required is for the 'destroy" crowd to back off just a little bit... and stop crucifying every other game Bioware has made since... even long before they release.
Regardless of whether or not you liked any of them... they ALL still exist... and there is still latitude to interpret what is there in different ways. It wasn't written to be a "tight" conclusion but a conclusion open to several different interpretations by different people. Not liking the ending to a book, doesn't mean the author of that book should or has to respond by changing anything. Many book endings have been interpreted in many different ways by different people over centuries as well.
In the case of multiple endings, Bioware shouldn't have to respond by declaring one ending canon (therein implying that it is superior to the rest). Majority fan opinion should have no bearing on what Bioware ultimately decided to do... and what Bioware decided to do was to go to Andromeda. Again, people are free to dislike that game... but demanding it be effectively "erased" and dragging them back to a demand to declare a canon ending to ME3 is simply not going to make the franchise magically better. A better game overall is what's needed... and that game can be done without declaring a canon and without erasing Andromeda (IMHO).
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 17, 2019 19:24:32 GMT
Destroy had mass genocide? Nothing about destroy had genocide. But the geth are destroyed. Yeah? So what? Don't let them upload the code so that the quarians can destroy them. If it wasn't for reaper interference, the quarians might have destroyed the geth before Shepard showed up. Geth don't count for genocide? I'm going to have to ask you to show your work there. I get that you're an anti-mechanical racist, but you still ought to try to make a case. Anyway, Reapers count too -- I'm not sure we can even count them as mechanical, so racism won't help much here even if you can sell it.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 17, 2019 19:34:46 GMT
Regardless of whether or not you liked any of them... they ALL still exist... and there is still latitude to interpret what is there in different ways. It wasn't written to be a "tight" conclusion but a conclusion open to several different interpretations by different people. Not liking the ending to a book, doesn't mean the author of that book should or has to respond by changing anything. Many book endings have been interpreted in many different ways by different people over centuries as well. What does this have to do with anything? Franchises reboot. Sequels are made that ignore other sequels. Old stories are reinterpreted.[/div] In the case of multiple endings, Bioware shouldn't have to respond by declaring one ending canon (therein implying that it is superior to the rest). Majority fan opinion should have no bearing on what Bioware ultimately decided to do... and what Bioware decided to do was to go to Andromeda. Again, people are free to dislike that game... but demanding it be effectively "erased" and dragging them back to a demand to declare a canon ending to ME3 is simply not going to make the franchise magically better. A better game overall is what's needed... and that game can be done without declaring a canon and without erasing Andromeda (IMHO).
[/quote]There is a demand for returning to the Milky Way (I did not say there are "DEMANDS", though that may be true also) Whether Bioware ends up doing that or not is of course up to them. But there are people to want to see that. And sticking your head in the sand won't make that fact magically go away. Any more than pretending ME3's endings were actually well-received. But IF, hypothetically speaking, Mass Effect made a sequel in the Milky Way, then yes A canon would have to be made. Not necessarily one that came from ME3. But some sort of outcome to the Reaper War would have to be established. You are correct that a better game (and a better narrative) are what is really needed. But that's a separate issue for a separate thread.
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Post by themikefest on Mar 17, 2019 19:38:13 GMT
Destroy had mass genocide? Nothing about destroy had genocide. But the geth are destroyed. Yeah? So what? Don't let them upload the code so that the quarians can destroy them. If it wasn't for reaper interference, the quarians might have destroyed the geth before Shepard showed up. Geth don't count for genocide? I'm going to have to ask you to show your work there. I get that you're an anti-mechanical racist, but you still ought to try to make a case. Anyway, Reapers count too -- I'm not sure we can even count them as mechanical, so racism won't help much here even if you can sell it. I don't have to show you anything. You don't like that? Tough luck. A racist? Against a fictional thing? Yeah, try again. You need to make sense with that one.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2019 19:48:01 GMT
Destroy had mass genocide? Nothing about destroy had genocide. But the geth are destroyed. Yeah? So what? Don't let them upload the code so that the quarians can destroy them. If it wasn't for reaper interference, the quarians might have destroyed the geth before Shepard showed up. This is exactly what it comes down to for me. The geth chose this path. They're a consensus that tried to be "human". EDI had no choice (but I'll sacrifice her anyway). The geth had plenty of choice. So, if a human race made some choices that enters them into a war with another race, that justifies their opponents actively seeking to completely wipe them out? Originally, the geth only asked a question of their Quarian creators. They certainly weren't trying to be "human" (especially since the organic species they were asking the question of was not human). Rather than considering their question and giving them a reasoned answer, the quarians instead became afraid and tried to wipe out the geth before they would be wiping out sentient beings... or so they thought. Tali admits, the quarians were wrong in that the geth had already become sentient. IMO, it was the quarians who were being somewhat hypocritical in thinking that it was wrong to enslave sentient beings but not wrong to attack them and start a war with them. I also think that if it's wrong to enslave them... it's likely genocide IF one actively seeks to wipe them out.
With the destroy ending, it's possible to create a Shepard who would, in that moment, be actively seeking to wipe out the geth (and that, to me, would elevate the action to a form a genocide). It's also possible to role play a variety of Shepards who just would see the loss as collateral damage... making a choice that they believe does the least amount of collateral damage. This, IMO, would not be an act of genocide.
Why I'm so intent on preserving all the available endings is that it facilitates role playing different personalities of Shepard... who believe in different sets of values. Limiting the ending to only a single one with only a single interpretation diminishes, IMO, the entire Trilogy as a role playing game (that is, a game where the playing can construct different roles for their player character).
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Post by kalreegar on Mar 17, 2019 19:54:11 GMT
oh boys... still with IT? IT was a mean to and end, a way to show bioware that their ending was so confusing and unintelligible that even a surreal, unacceptable shitty-theory like IT could have been compatible with the ending. It's tragic how some people took it for the real ending. The real ending? There are at least 4 (post-EC) real endings to this game. Funny how people keep insisting it gets reduced to only one... destroy or else... that's the fan line here... and that's crap. Bioware wrote all of Mass Effect with enough vagueness to accommodate the various choices and roleplaying differences that people might want to use. They left a lot open to interpretation and head canon so that people could more freely model their Shepard into being different characters with different philosophies on life and beliefs. That's why, even after all these years and all this flack, Bioware hasn't officially discounted any of the possible interpretations of the endings and why they have said they wouldn't make one ending canon over the others.
The ending I've been describing is an interpretation; but it is not IT. Shepard is not indoctrinated, but in my ending, he/she is a person who believes in God (something he/she can expressly state in ME1). Mass Effect is NOT necessarily as agnostic as you apparently "cherish" it for being. It is vague, however, by intent so that it can be interpreted either way. I really hope that Bioware does NOT declare the destroy ending canon... buckling to the fans who, on one hand, say there cherish choice and on the other try to forfeit the choices made by everyone but themselves. It's no skin off the "destroy" crowd's back that the other endings exist... but somehow they seem to think it is. The franchise can continue without declaration of a canon ending to ME3. All that's required is for the 'destroy" crowd to back off just a little bit... and stop crucifying every other game Bioware has made since... even long before they release.
There is 1 real ending with 4 main choiches, each of them has lot of possible minor ramification. That's canon. EC + Leviathan DLC refutes IT by clearly saying that Shephard did indeed reach the citadel, meet with Anderson and The Illusive Man, confirming that the Catalyst is an ancient powerful AI "controlling" the reapers and that the space magic wave is not symbolic but actually happend and had consequences. Shepard being death, indocrinated, or a big fat taxi-driver dreaming all the trilogy after an heavy lungh, it's not a real ending. It just made-up headcanon. Legit, but headcanon.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2019 20:01:36 GMT
Regardless of whether or not you liked any of them... they ALL still exist... and there is still latitude to interpret what is there in different ways. It wasn't written to be a "tight" conclusion but a conclusion open to several different interpretations by different people. Not liking the ending to a book, doesn't mean the author of that book should or has to respond by changing anything. Many book endings have been interpreted in many different ways by different people over centuries as well. What does this have to do with anything? Franchises reboot. Sequels are made that ignore other sequels. Old stories are reinterpreted.There is a demand for returning to the Milky Way (I did not say there are "DEMANDS", though that may be true also) Whether Bioware ends up doing that or not is of course up to them. But there are people to want to see that. And sticking your head in the sand won't make that fact magically go away. Any more than pretending ME3's endings were actually well-received. But IF, hypothetically speaking, Mass Effect made a sequel in the Milky Way, then yes A canon would have to be made. Not necessarily one that came from ME3. But some sort of outcome to the Reaper War would have to be established. You are correct that a better game (and a better narrative) are what is really needed. But that's a separate issue for a separate thread. No... a canon does not have to be declared to return to the Milky Way. IF enough time passes before the return is made a variety of "events" can be said to have occurred that would ultimately bring the galaxy to a consistent state (whatever state Bioware chooses). These events could be sensitive to whatever choice the player actually made. It's every bit as simple as allowing the player to choose from 1 of 3 backstories for Shepard at the beginning of ME1.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 17, 2019 20:03:22 GMT
So, if a human race made some choices that enters them into a war with another race, that justifies their opponents actively seeking to completely wipe them out? Who said anything about actively trying to kill them? It's a by-product of Destroy but something that wouldn't happen if they hadn't used Reaper tech.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Mar 17, 2019 20:05:07 GMT
Regardless of whether or not you liked any of them... they ALL still exist... and there is still latitude to interpret what is there in different ways. It wasn't written to be a "tight" conclusion but a conclusion open to several different interpretations by different people. Not liking the ending to a book, doesn't mean the author of that book should or has to respond by changing anything. Many book endings have been interpreted in many different ways by different people over centuries as well.
In the case of multiple endings, Bioware shouldn't have to respond by declaring one ending canon (therein implying that it is superior to the rest). Majority fan opinion should have no bearing on what Bioware ultimately decided to do... and what Bioware decided to do was to go to Andromeda. Again, people are free to dislike that game... but demanding it be effectively "erased" and dragging them back to a demand to declare a canon ending to ME3 is simply not going to make the franchise magically better. A better game overall is what's needed... and that game can be done without declaring a canon and without erasing Andromeda (IMHO).
when did bioware declare a cannon ending? Not being a smart ass but I never heard about it
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 17, 2019 20:50:39 GMT
So, if a human race made some choices that enters them into a war with another race, that justifies their opponents actively seeking to completely wipe them out? Who said anything about actively trying to kill them? It's a by-product of Destroy but something that wouldn't happen if they hadn't used Reaper tech. Source? Last I checked all synthetics were targeted, not just the ones with Reaper tech.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 17, 2019 21:13:57 GMT
Who said anything about actively trying to kill them? It's a by-product of Destroy but something that wouldn't happen if they hadn't used Reaper tech. Source? Last I checked all synthetics were targeted, not just the ones with Reaper tech. How do you differentiate between "synthetic" and "computer tech"? Reaper tech was clearly a different beast. It did things other tech couldn't. So either all computer tech is destroyed or there's something specific that's targeted.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Mar 17, 2019 21:20:53 GMT
Who said anything about actively trying to kill them? It's a by-product of Destroy but something that wouldn't happen if they hadn't used Reaper tech. Source? Last I checked all synthetics were targeted, not just the ones with Reaper tech. The starkid also said shepard had cybernatics in him which signaled that "hey you choose destroy you might die". Yet in high ems destroy shep lives. I think it was reaper tech only. That said I have a hard time believing him on that. I think the geth survived (though alot of them would die) and EDI survived in my opinion but would be damaged so would need time to "heal" to be anywhere near as powerful as she was.
In all fairness if the geth had kept building ships and weapons after the quarians left rather then sitting on their ass for so long they would likely have been able to beat the reapers with the help of the organics.
It always irratated me how the geth had a relatively small fleet. consider that they had not gone to war since the quarians left and should have been buildiing stuff that whole time and their fleet should be more numerous then the reapers. Even if you factor in that they knew the reapers had been coming for at least a little over two years the logical conclusion for those who didn't join the reapers would be to prepare and since they are machine and have likely stockpiled resources they could likely have built a fleet that outnumbered the reapers by alot! and unlike the council races who could only have a small number of dreadnoughts the geth could have hundreds like the one we see in ME3. Even if you factor in the ships the quarians destroyed in their attack the geth should still have been ALOT more powerful then they were. If they can all vote in less then a second then why is it that they couldn't come to this logical conclusion. Really big hole in the lore.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2019 21:21:20 GMT
So, if a human race made some choices that enters them into a war with another race, that justifies their opponents actively seeking to completely wipe them out? Who said anything about actively trying to kill them? It's a by-product of Destroy but something that wouldn't happen if they hadn't used Reaper tech. I think it is possible that the Destroy ending is an act of genocide. It's also possibly not an act of genocide. The difference is in intent... not that the species being anihilated are synthetics. Synthetic or not, they are sentient. To intentionally want to wipe them out takes the act out of the realm of collateral damage to genocide.. IMHO, of course. You can rationalize what you do however you want... it matters not to me. Shepard's intent is something each player decides individually as they role play and build his/her personality/character.
Discussion: What about killing the rachni queen? Genocide or not genocide? - Is there any scenario in the game that Shepard kills her without deliberately eliminating the remainder of the entire species?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2019 21:23:33 GMT
Regardless of whether or not you liked any of them... they ALL still exist... and there is still latitude to interpret what is there in different ways. It wasn't written to be a "tight" conclusion but a conclusion open to several different interpretations by different people. Not liking the ending to a book, doesn't mean the author of that book should or has to respond by changing anything. Many book endings have been interpreted in many different ways by different people over centuries as well.
In the case of multiple endings, Bioware shouldn't have to respond by declaring one ending canon (therein implying that it is superior to the rest). Majority fan opinion should have no bearing on what Bioware ultimately decided to do... and what Bioware decided to do was to go to Andromeda. Again, people are free to dislike that game... but demanding it be effectively "erased" and dragging them back to a demand to declare a canon ending to ME3 is simply not going to make the franchise magically better. A better game overall is what's needed... and that game can be done without declaring a canon and without erasing Andromeda (IMHO).
when did bioware declare a cannon ending? Not being a smart ass but I never heard about it They haven't... and I hope they never do. It's unnecessary. They can move the story forward without declaring a canon.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 17, 2019 21:37:51 GMT
Source? Last I checked all synthetics were targeted, not just the ones with Reaper tech. How do you differentiate between "synthetic" and "computer tech"? Reaper tech was clearly a different beast. It did things other tech couldn't. So either all computer tech is destroyed or there's something specific that's targeted. Whether they have a blue box, a specialized quantum computer, or not. AI in the MEU cannot operate without their blue box, becoming simply data without it. So if Destroy targeted blue boxes, it eliminates all synthetics while regular computers could be fine. Or if low EMS, the Crucible isn't as fine-tuned so that's why its affects are more broad.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 17, 2019 21:42:09 GMT
Source? Last I checked all synthetics were targeted, not just the ones with Reaper tech. The starkid also said shepard had cybernatics in him which signaled that "hey you choose destroy you might die". Yet in high ems destroy shep lives. I think it was reaper tech only. That said I have a hard time believing him on that. I think the geth survived (though alot of them would die) and EDI survived in my opinion but would be damaged so would need time to "heal" to be anywhere near as powerful as she was.
In all fairness if the geth had kept building ships and weapons after the quarians left rather then sitting on their ass for so long they would likely have been able to beat the reapers with the help of the organics.
It always irratated me how the geth had a relatively small fleet. consider that they had not gone to war since the quarians left and should have been buildiing stuff that whole time and their fleet should be more numerous then the reapers. Even if you factor in that they knew the reapers had been coming for at least a little over two years the logical conclusion for those who didn't join the reapers would be to prepare and since they are machine and have likely stockpiled resources they could likely have built a fleet that outnumbered the reapers by alot! and unlike the council races who could only have a small number of dreadnoughts the geth could have hundreds like the one we see in ME3. Even if you factor in the ships the quarians destroyed in their attack the geth should still have been ALOT more powerful then they were. If they can all vote in less then a second then why is it that they couldn't come to this logical conclusion. Really big hole in the lore.
Your opinion doesn't matter, since the Extended Cut shows that they all died. As for building a fleet, why would they? The Geth didn't want to fight, that's kind of the whole point of their story. They spent most of their time working on ways to improve themselves, like the Dyson Sphere. They only learned about the Reapers when Saren and Sovereign approached them to offer an alliance. THat means they only had a couple years just like everyone else. And during that time they did start building some ships, like the Geth Dreadnought we fight on in ME3. Also remember the Quarian sneak attack and cyberwarfare on them led to them being unable to defend themselves resulting in most of their fleet being destroyed until they took the offer the Reaper gave them.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2019 21:52:05 GMT
oh boys... still with IT? IT was a mean to and end, a way to show bioware that their ending was so confusing and unintelligible that even a surreal, unacceptable shitty-theory like IT could have been compatible with the ending. It's tragic how some people took it for the real ending. There is no "real" ending. People can believe whatever they want to believe.
The ending was meant to be open to interpretation.
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dmc1001
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 17, 2019 21:57:43 GMT
How do you differentiate between "synthetic" and "computer tech"? Reaper tech was clearly a different beast. It did things other tech couldn't. So either all computer tech is destroyed or there's something specific that's targeted. Whether they have a blue box, a specialized quantum computer, or not. AI in the MEU cannot operate without their blue box, becoming simply data without it. So if Destroy targeted blue boxes, it eliminates all synthetics while regular computers could be fine. Or if low EMS, the Crucible isn't as fine-tuned so that's why its affects are more broad. Do you think Reapers have blue boxes?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 17, 2019 22:07:34 GMT
Whether they have a blue box, a specialized quantum computer, or not. AI in the MEU cannot operate without their blue box, becoming simply data without it. So if Destroy targeted blue boxes, it eliminates all synthetics while regular computers could be fine. Or if low EMS, the Crucible isn't as fine-tuned so that's why its affects are more broad. Do you think Reapers have blue boxes? I see no reason why they wouldn't. At the very least the Catalyst probably does and his connection to the Reapers is a whole Independence Day thing.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 17, 2019 22:27:18 GMT
Discussion: What about killing the rachni queen? Genocide or not genocide? - Is there any scenario in the game that Shepard kills her without deliberately eliminating the remainder of the entire species? In-game, you'd think a marine like Shepard would kill the rachni queen without much thought. A Butcher of Torfan certainly would. And looking at all the insane rachni running around Noveria, you would have no reason to believe the queen's discussion. Out-of-game perspective gives a different viewpoint. We see rachni are scattered around the galaxy. It would take a lot of work to root all of them out. It comes down to this: are you willing to take the chance that the queen will be true to her word and perhaps able to bring them under control OR kill her and assume you can kill all the rachni on the loose. It's a conundrum. There's no good answer. Intended genocide isn't necessarily remove the rachni threat but it could slow it down. I choose to save her most often but I'm not sure it really qualifies as a definite Paragon choice. Paragon could say saving the queen will save the most lives and so better to kill it now. Renegade could say the rachni could be potential future allies and so leave them alive.
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Post by kalreegar on Mar 17, 2019 22:27:49 GMT
oh boys... still with IT? IT was a mean to and end, a way to show bioware that their ending was so confusing and unintelligible that even a surreal, unacceptable shitty-theory like IT could have been compatible with the ending. It's tragic how some people took it for the real ending. There is no "real" ending. People can believe whatever they want to believe.
The ending was meant to be open to interpretation.
mmm nope. The real ending is what is shown and told in-game, by the game. Any modification, interpretation or addition (like IT or "Shepard is in the afterlife") is a personal, non-existent, head-canon ending. People can believe whatever they want to believe? Yes, but it is not a rigorous attitude, and no serious discussion can be established.
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dmc1001
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 17, 2019 23:04:16 GMT
Do you think Reapers have blue boxes? I see no reason why they wouldn't. At the very least the Catalyst probably does and his connection to the Reapers is a whole Independence Day thing. So your saying that a billion years ago the exact same tech was created that was recreated within the past 50,000 years?
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