theascendent
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
PSN: The Ascendent
Posts: 482 Likes: 629
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by theascendent on Jan 17, 2019 13:47:59 GMT
There is something I've been wondering for a while. Now bear with me as this might be a wee bit controversial, the topic of incest. As the Dragon Age is primarily a medieval fantasy game, taking inspiration from our own medieval history, a time period where many noble and even royal families partook in this practice, I haven't seen or read anywhere in the setting at where the line is drawn. One example I primarily think of is that of Meghren, the Orlesian Noble installed as King of Ferelden during the Orlesian occupation. "Meghren was named King of Ferelden and sent there as a punishment for having offended Emperor Florian somehow, however before this, the Emperor and Meghren were rumored to be lovers, causing much scandal as they were also first cousins." (Source Dragon Age wiki article Meghren, taken from Dragon Age: The Stolen Throne pp. 145, 152). I think the controversy is the fact that Meghren was a first cousin of the Emperor Florian and not a man, as being sexually open is a norm in Orlais. I think that since a distinction was made as to the degree of kinship shared between the two I think we can say that first cousin is too close for comfort. Which means that their take on incest is almost equivalent to our own modern feelings on the subject. Those are just my thoughts on this topic, if anyone has anything else to add I would appreciate it. Also given the nature of the subject let's be mature about this okay?
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Post by witchcocktor on Jan 17, 2019 13:58:20 GMT
What is the question here? Should incest exist in Dragon Age games?
I don't really see incest doing anything else except potentially shock (and disgust) most players. It's not a super appealing or interesting plot point either.
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 17, 2019 14:10:39 GMT
Well, we had Myaja and Lucjan, who were siblings, so I think that's plenty of incest for one series. And if you play a male dwarf commoner in DAO Leske seems obsessed with the idea that you're secretly into your sister. 🙄
There are plenty of RL cultures where "first cousins" isn't considered incestuous at all - and Gaspard was perfectly willing to marry Celene and Celene considered it even though she's -5000% attracted to him, so I imagine Thedas is similar where royal/noble bloodlines are concerned.
Idk I think that's enough, what more are you looking for?
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
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Post by jjdxb on Jan 17, 2019 14:59:27 GMT
Fun fact, Cleopatra (actually Cleopatra VII) married not one but two of her brothers, Ptolemy XIII and Ptolemy XIV (separately). Ptolemy XIII also married his other sister, Arsinoë IV. Cleopatra also had Arsinoë IV executed by Mark Anthony and probably also had Ptolemy XIV murdered. Brother sister marriage was very common (and sacred) among the royalty of Ancient Egypt. Further east, incestuous marriages were apparently also sacred in Persian nobility, a fact which has now become a meme among historical strategy gamers like myself. There are loads of posts about people (in game) trying to marry as many of generations of their descendants as possible (i.e. daughter -> granddaughter -> great-granddaughter) Furthermore, here is the lineage of Charles II Habsburg of Spain. I also like to call it the "Habsburg Family Shrub"
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Post by naughtynomad on Jan 17, 2019 16:13:48 GMT
What is the question here? Should incest exist in Dragon Age games? I don't really see incest doing anything else except potentially shock (and disgust) most players. It's not a super appealing or interesting plot point either. Incest is disgusting? That kind of backwards thinking isn't going to take you far in the next 10-20 years. Just watch... it's the next "love is love" rallying cry. It's already gaining momentum, as its becoming more and more popular it pop culture. It's also pretty widely accepted in parts of Asia.
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Blaze
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Everyone seem normal till you get to know them
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Everyone seem normal till you get to know them
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Post by Blaze on Jan 17, 2019 19:34:23 GMT
What is the question here? Should incest exist in Dragon Age games? I don't really see incest doing anything else except potentially shock (and disgust) most players. It's not a super appealing or interesting plot point either. Incest is disgusting? That kind of backwards thinking isn't going to take you far in the next 10-20 years. Just watch... it's the next "love is love" rallying cry. It's already gaining momentum, as its becoming more and more popular it pop culture. It's also pretty widely accepted in parts of Asia. which parts exactly?
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Post by thats1evildude on Jan 17, 2019 20:04:09 GMT
Playing to lose is like sleeping with your sister. Sure, she's a great piece of tail with a blouse full of goodies, but it's just illegal. Then you get into that whole inbred thing. Kids with no teeth who do nothing but play the banjo, eat apple sauce through a straw and pork farm animals.
-Hot Shots
You want to know where incest leads? Take a look at the Haven cultists. They were more inbred than a Targaryen family reunion, and they thought a giant flying lizard was the reincarnation of Andraste.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 17, 2019 20:22:44 GMT
Emperor and Meghren were rumored to be lovers, causing much scandal as they were also first cousins." I must admit this always puzzled me somewhat. It is evident that the reason it became taboo for close relations to marry in some societies was that over time it had been observed that the children resulting from such unions often had some sort of genetic weakness. This of course is due to recessive genes coming to the fore but when the science behind this wasn't known, people felt that it must be the result of the curse of the gods. For this to have been the case in Thedas, there would have had to have been enough instances of this in the past for the taboo to establish itself, although since the Maker seems singularly uninterested in the sexual activity of his worshipers, it could hardly have been regarded as a religious taboo. Since Orlesians would have no objection to them being gay lovers and they certainly couldn't have children, it seems odd that it should have caused such scandal, bearing in mind they were cousins and not siblings. As others have pointed out, there are many royal families from the Egyptians onwards where marrying close relatives was the norm and whilst Christian societies might have baulked at siblings, there certainly seemed many instances of first or second cousins being paired off, probably in order to keep wealth and power in the family. So it is hard to see where this particular cultural objection on the part of the Orlesians does come from.
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Post by arvaarad on Jan 17, 2019 20:41:37 GMT
Emperor and Meghren were rumored to be lovers, causing much scandal as they were also first cousins." I must admit this always puzzled me somewhat. It is evident that the reason it became taboo for close relations to marry in some societies was that over time it had been observed that the children resulting from such unions often had some sort of genetic weakness. This of course is due to recessive genes coming to the fore but when the science behind this wasn't known, people felt that it must be the result of the curse of the gods. For this to have been the case in Thedas, there would have had to have been enough instances of this in the past for the taboo to establish itself, although since the Maker seems singularly uninterested in the sexual activity of his worshipers, it could hardly have been regarded as a religious taboo. Since Orlesians would have no objection to them being gay lovers and they certainly couldn't have children, it seems odd that it should have caused such scandal, bearing in mind they were cousins and not siblings. As others have pointed out, there are many royal families from the Egyptians onwards where marrying close relatives was the norm and whilst Christian societies might have baulked at siblings, there certainly seemed many instances of first cousins being paired off, probably in order to keep wealth and power in the family. So it is hard to see where this particular cultural objection on the part of the Orlesians does come from. Traditional restrictions on incest, before the genetics started getting known, were more to do with the concentration of power within families. If a family marries within itself a lot, all their wealth stays in that line. This typically comes in conflict with other power structures like churches, or royal families that want to have a monopoly on that ability. Now, lest anyone think I’m on incest’s side here, the main issue in modern times (assuming everyone’s on birth control) is more to do with internal power dynamics. It’s hard to find a family relationship where both relatives are totally equal, and even if they are, breakups are unnecessarily messy due to the fact that (often) both parties will still have to see each other and possibly have medical/estate/other rights over each other that a non-relative ex wouldn’t have. Also, passed-down wealth is a huge problem when trying to maintain an accessible middle class. It’s hard for people to move between classes if the upper class gets more and more of a head start with every generation. So even if you aren’t a medieval church who sees powerful families as a threat to your own power... that kind of behavior is still a problem. Giving people more tools to consolidate inheritances is a really bad idea, regardless of whether that tool is incest or something else.
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theascendent
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
PSN: The Ascendent
Posts: 482 Likes: 629
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by theascendent on Jan 17, 2019 20:51:13 GMT
Playing to lose is like sleeping with your sister. Sure, she's a great piece of tail with a blouse full of goodies, but it's just illegal. Then you get into that whole inbred thing. Kids with no teeth who do nothing but play the banjo, eat apple sauce through a straw and pork farm animals. -Hot Shots
You want to know where incest leads? Take a look at the Haven cultists. They were more inbred than a Targaryen family reunion, and they thought a giant flying lizard was the reincarnation of Andraste.
Really? Didn't realize that. I suppose isolating yourself and restricting access does limit the gene pool. That might explain their mental health but physically they didn't seem any different from other humans in Origins.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 17, 2019 21:22:11 GMT
Traditional restrictions on incest, before the genetics started getting known, were more to do with the concentration of power within families. If a family marries within itself a lot, all their wealth stays in that line. This typically comes in conflict with other power structures like churches, or royal families that want to have a monopoly on that ability.
It still doesn't explain why Florian/Meghren was such a scandal. They were lovers but really that wasn't concentrating power within the family since there would be no children, so once Florian died the power would move elsewhere, as it in fact did. Now it is understandable if people were concerned that the lack of offspring might result in civil war for the succession (as it ultimately did) but that would have nothing to do with them being cousins. It would have been to do with the fact that they were in a gay relationship and Florian had not yet done "his duty" in providing an heir regardless of their family relationship to one another. It is the fact that they object specifically because they are cousins that seems to have no real basis from what we know of Thedas society.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jan 17, 2019 21:46:50 GMT
Just to add one point, if you play a Trevelyan, Dorian has a bit about being related. As a response, the Inquisitor can say that he'd prefer they weren't related, as that might make flirting awkward. Dorian responds that the connection was long ago, so they're "good to go." So the idea of incest being icky, even with same-sex pairings, wasn't just some throw-away thing in a DA prequel novel. but physically they didn't seem any different from other humans in Origins. That doesn't mean anything. Bioware doesn't use custom body models except in rare circumstances. I suppose they could have given them bad skin, but we wouldn't be able to tell if that was a result of inbreeding or their living conditions, or whatever else.
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Everyone seem normal till you get to know them
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Post by Blaze on Jan 17, 2019 21:58:03 GMT
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Post by thats1evildude on Jan 17, 2019 22:58:09 GMT
You want to know where incest leads? Take a look at the Haven cultists. They were more inbred than a Targaryen family reunion, and they thought a giant flying lizard was the reincarnation of Andraste.
Really? Didn't realize that. I suppose isolating yourself and restricting access does limit the gene pool. That might explain their mental health but physically they didn't seem any different from other humans in Origins. "Almost all scholars believe that the centuries-long isolation imposed upon the village led to the necessity for inbreeding. This practice likely led to a greater incidence of madness, which may explain why the cult was, at the time of its discovering in 9:30, worshipping a high dragon."
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 17, 2019 23:02:45 GMT
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theascendent
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
PSN: The Ascendent
Posts: 482 Likes: 629
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by theascendent on Jan 17, 2019 23:52:00 GMT
Yeah I think things are getting out of hand. My curiosity has been officially satisfied.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jan 18, 2019 0:17:05 GMT
Why do the Lannisters have such big beds?
...
They push twins together to make a king!
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Post by naughtynomad on Jan 18, 2019 0:32:00 GMT
Playing to lose is like sleeping with your sister. Sure, she's a great piece of tail with a blouse full of goodies, but it's just illegal. Then you get into that whole inbred thing. Kids with no teeth who do nothing but play the banjo, eat apple sauce through a straw and pork farm animals.
-Hot Shots
You want to know where incest leads? Take a look at the Haven cultists. They were more inbred than a Targaryen family reunion, and they thought a giant flying lizard was the reincarnation of Andraste.
So the only point of loving someone and making love is to procreate and make babies... got it.
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Post by thats1evildude on Jan 18, 2019 1:41:57 GMT
So the only point of loving someone and making love is to procreate and make babies... got it. That’s a completely insane interpretation of what I said, so much so that I’m not even going to try and argue with the alien starfish logic that led to your conclusion. In short, you do you, naughtynomad.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jan 18, 2019 2:11:50 GMT
I'm offended by the bias against alien starfish in this thread.
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Post by naughtynomad on Jan 18, 2019 2:40:11 GMT
So the only point of loving someone and making love is to procreate and make babies... got it. That’s a completely insane interpretation of what I said, so much so that I’m not even going to try and argue with the alien starfish logic that led to your conclusion. In short, you do you, naughtynomad. You said incest leads to inbred children... i think my interpretation is pretty accurate. I'm not into incestual relationships myself... but don't think society should tell two consenting adults who they can and can't love.
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coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee
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Post by regack on Jan 18, 2019 2:56:34 GMT
I'm offended by the bias against alien starfish in this thread. Alien starfish seems more like a Mass Effect thing than a Dragon Age thing, but hey, who knows what's up in the heavens of Thedas, there's no lore for that yet ... we are still primarily on this topic as it relates to Thedas, I'm pretty sure
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Post by arvaarad on Jan 18, 2019 3:06:29 GMT
I'm offended by the bias against alien starfish in this thread. The alien starfish spends their days contemplating the mysteries of the cosmic tidepool, whirling their five-levered spacecraft through nebula after nebula. The dust of a thousand thousand planets sinks about their neon blue spines, dancing up through the half-wet biosphere that shields them from vacuum. Strings of electrostatic poetry burst through their decentralized neurons, a song more sensed than heard. As the ricochet of signals coalesces, a single thought emerges - front page of pornhub,,, but in game??
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Old Scientist Contrarian
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 18, 2019 3:33:41 GMT
What is the question here? Should incest exist in Dragon Age games? I don't really see incest doing anything else except potentially shock (and disgust) most players. It's not a super appealing or interesting plot point either. Incest is disgusting? That kind of backwards thinking isn't going to take you far in the next 10-20 years. Just watch... it's the next "love is love" rallying cry. It's already gaining momentum, as its becoming more and more popular it pop culture. It's also pretty widely accepted in parts of Asia. I spent too much time in the old politics thread; I can't tell when post are satire anymore.
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githcheater
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Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
Posts: 819 Likes: 952
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Post by githcheater on Jan 18, 2019 4:39:46 GMT
What is the question here? Should incest exist in Dragon Age games? Only in Dragon Age 2 with Hawke and any of his relatives ... especially Mommy late in the 3rd act ... but I suppose Carver or Bethany would be OK.
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