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Post by deadlydwarf on Oct 16, 2016 3:39:01 GMT
In my current PT, my Surana absolutely hates Morrigan. Only reluctantly did she give Morrigan the Grimoire she found in the Tower. Only reluctantly did she agree to go kill Flemeth, so much so that she actually lost favorability points. So now what? If my Surana goes to Flemeth's hut, her inclination is to ask Flemeth if she does indeed intend to possess Morrigan. She continues to feel a certain degree of gratitude towards Flemeth for having saved her and Alistair from certain death and wants to give Flemeth the benefit of the doubt. Flemeth, however, rarely answers a direct question and certainly doesn't here.
The annoying thing here is that you have only two choices: kill Flemeth or let her go and lie to Morrigan. I'd prefer telling her the truth that I didn't feel right killing the person who saved me at Ostagar. No good way to close this out it seems...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2016 4:12:08 GMT
I usually kill Flemeth - it's good for XP and plus my wardens like to play honorably with no deceit in there behalf, plus Flemeth isn't actually dead so... Yeah, killing would be the most honorable and honest path..
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melbella
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Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by melbella on Oct 16, 2016 18:04:29 GMT
If you don't kill Flemeth, there is an option to tell Morrigan that isn't technically a lie. That's the one I usually take. Besides, Morrigan doesn't believe "killing" her will actually result in her death anyway, so no harm no foul.
Unless you want the XP and another dragon fight for funsies, I'd say don't kill Flemeth, especially if your Warden doesn't like and/or trust Morrigan in the first place.
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Post by deadlydwarf on Oct 16, 2016 18:30:43 GMT
If you don't kill Flemeth, there is an option to tell Morrigan that isn't technically a lie. That's the one I usually take. Besides, Morrigan doesn't believe "killing" her will actually result in her death anyway, so no harm no foul. Unless you want the XP and another dragon fight for funsies, I'd say don't kill Flemeth, especially if your Warden doesn't like and/or trust Morrigan in the first place. That option involves giving her the Grimoire. Truth be told, I wanted to keep things contentious with Morrigan. I wanted to see at what point does she walk off. (Right now, Morrigan is "hostile" -- about 30 out of 100.) Here's something sort of odd....I accepted Flemeth's proposition, went in and got the Grimoire and robes, and then when I went out of the hut, I told Flemeth "I think I'll keep the Grimoire." At that point, she turns into a dragon and attacks you! BW seems to have gone out of their way to give this one an unsatisfying ending in this situation!
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Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: melbella
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Post by melbella on Oct 16, 2016 18:40:29 GMT
Interesting! So she really does want Morrigan to have the book and robes after all. Ugh, why not just give them to her herself, or leave them "laying about" for her to find. So much manipulation from those two!
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Post by deadlydwarf on Oct 16, 2016 20:31:49 GMT
Interesting! So she really does want Morrigan to have the book and robes after all. Ugh, why not just give them to her herself, or leave them "laying about" for her to find. So much manipulation from those two! I suppose it's a sign that Flemeth really doesn't harbor malevolent designs towards Morrigan. And this before the Temple of Mythal scene in Inquisition. Of course, what is a Morrigan-hater to do after this? What's the fun of keeping the Grimoire is you can't wave in Morrigan's face or otherwise annoy her?!
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Post by secretrare on Oct 16, 2016 23:30:33 GMT
I have no intention to waste time and use the power of my warden to kill a benefactor of mine for Morrigan just because she said so without let me even read that book.I prefer to kill Morrigan.
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Post by Prince on Oct 17, 2016 0:04:18 GMT
I didn't kill Flemeth because i suspected that Morrigan was deceiving the warden during this request.
I found later something in the DA Toolset that supported my thesis: (I will post the whole segment but the bit I'm referring to is the one who mention the lie)
notes for Flemeth encounter (After Morrigan sends you there)
Flemeth: "And so you return." (as she knew you would) Flemeth: "Lovely Morrigan has at last found someone willing to dance to her tune. Such enchanting music she plays, wouldn't you say?" (she knows that Morrigan has sent the player here to kill her, at some level she's impressed her daughter finally managed it) PC: "We know your little secret, Flemeth." Flemeth: "<desc>Laughs</desc> Which one, I wonder?" (a great big laugh, oh this is funny) Flemeth: "What has Morrigan told you, hmm? What little plan has she hatched this time?" (she doesn't really want to know but she is intrigued) PC: "She knows how you extend your unnatural lifespan." Flemeth: "That she does. The question is, do you?" (she knows very well Morrigan has lied to the player) Flemeth: "Ahhh, but it is an old, old story. One that Flemeth has heard before... and even told." (waving off the details as unimportant -- she knows Morrigan has betrayed her, and since she' s betrayed many others she doesn't really take it personally) Flemeth: "Let us skip right to the ending, shall we? Do you slay the old wretch as Morrigan bids? Or does the tale take a different turn?" (a bit eager to cut to the chase, "old wretch" said with amusement as it's what Morrigan would call her -- basically she's saying "will you do what Morrigan tells you to or something else?") PC: What do you propose? Flemeth: "Morrigan wishes my grimoire? Take it as a trophy. Tell her I am slain." (as if this were nothing, "here take the thing that means nothing to me) PC: I could do that. Flemeth: "It's far easier this way, don't you think? The lies are always more fun." (enjoying it) Flemeth: "The book is inside the hut, with notes and spells enough to make even Morrigan blush with delight." (as if the book is worthless and Morrigan is a fool to want it) Flemeth: "You and I will not meet again. <emp>That</emp> I guarantee." (enigmatic, said with a wicked smile)
-----OR--------
PC: "Is it true you intend to take Morrigan's body?" Flemeth: "<desc>Laughs</desc> Oh, I do like that." (she finds this to be very funny -- this is the story that Morrigan told? How cute! Obviously, she's also NOT answering the question)
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Post by oyabun on Oct 17, 2016 0:19:06 GMT
If you don't kill Flemeth, there is an option to tell Morrigan that isn't technically a lie. That's the one I usually take. Besides, Morrigan doesn't believe "killing" her will actually result in her death anyway, so no harm no foul. Unless you want the XP and another dragon fight for funsies, I'd say don't kill Flemeth, especially if your Warden doesn't like and/or trust Morrigan in the first place. There is also the option to ignore the request and never return to Flemeth or return but ignore her and the Grimoire(leave the book there),in this way you can avoid to lie to Morrigan but at the same time she will not leave which is what happen if you confront Flemeth take her Grimoire but decide to not kill her and say the truth to Morrigan.
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Post by deadlydwarf on Oct 17, 2016 3:20:31 GMT
I have no intention to waste time and use the power of my warden to kill a benefactor of mine for Morrigan just because she said so without let me even read that book.I prefer to kill Morrigan. Is there anything that actually triggers a fight with Morrigan? I assumed the most that happens is that Morgan leaves for one of three reasons: (1) you refuse the Dark Ritual; (2) you refuse to kill Flemeth for her; or (3) her approval of the Warden gets too low. I'm role playing my Surana as a loyal Circle Mage who clashes with Morrigan on everything and I don't give no gifts to artificially maintain Morrigan's approval. I want to see how low Morrigan's approval will go and what happens when it reaches rock bottom. I assume she'll leave but don't really know.
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Post by phoray on Oct 17, 2016 3:27:13 GMT
You could tell Flemeth you want the grimoire for yourself. She'll attack you. Then you can honestly say you didn't kill the woman for Morrigan at all. I'm not sure how you could avoid getting points; it's the companion's personal quest. You could look online and be as rude about giving it to her as possible with the correct dialogue choices to offset the positive points.
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Post by straykat on Oct 17, 2016 3:31:52 GMT
I don't see any reason to kill her, unless you romance Morrigan....who is a decidedly awful person for even more clear reasons. Otherwise, Flemeth saved your life and is a big reason the 5th Blight is so short.
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Post by deadlydwarf on Oct 17, 2016 4:19:55 GMT
You could tell Flemeth you want the grimoire for yourself. She'll attack you. Then you can honestly say you didn't kill the woman for Morrigan at all. I'm not sure how you could avoid getting points; it's the companion's personal quest. You could look online and be as rude about giving it to her as possible with the correct dialogue choices to offset the positive points. That's probably what I'll do. I'll experiment and write what happens with various options.
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Post by deadlydwarf on Oct 17, 2016 7:26:11 GMT
I told Flemeth I'd keep the Grimoire for myself and she attacked me. When you get back to camp, there's no way to talk to Morrigan about what you've done without giving her the Grimoire. Therefore, I returned to camp, put Morrigan in her new robes, and that was it...no fireworks. My warden keeps the Grimoire.
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Post by secretrare on Oct 17, 2016 12:19:34 GMT
I have no intention to waste time and use the power of my warden to kill a benefactor of mine for Morrigan just because she said so without let me even read that book.I prefer to kill Morrigan. Is there anything that actually triggers a fight with Morrigan? I assumed the most that happens is that Morgan leaves for one of three reasons: (1) you refuse the Dark Ritual; (2) you refuse to kill Flemeth for her; or (3) her approval of the Warden gets too low. I'm role playing my Surana as a loyal Circle Mage who clashes with Morrigan on everything and I don't give no gifts to artificially maintain Morrigan's approval. I want to see how low Morrigan's approval will go and what happens when it reaches rock bottom. I assume she'll leave but don't really know. Unless you mod the game like i did(I killed her in my timeline then i fixed the Reclieffe stage to work even without her)no,you have to wait until the last Dlc to trigger a canon fight. Canonically in the base game there are restrictions posed by the writers on this character(unlike the others companions)you can't touch her.
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Post by oyabun on Oct 17, 2016 12:24:24 GMT
I told Flemeth I'd keep the Grimoire for myself and she attacked me. When you get back to camp, there's no way to talk to Morrigan about what you've done without giving her the Grimoire. Therefore, I returned to camp, put Morrigan in her new robes, and that was it...no fireworks. My warden keeps the Grimoire. I have never understood why a warden would like to have that grimoire if they cannot use it,but that beside the point,The warden can gain the grimoire even without fighting vs Flemeth. Fight Flemeth is useful for XP but XP is a gameplay mechaninc not one that concern lore,logically why a person should become stronger just because they killed an animal?
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I'm a good person, but I don't practice it.
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Post by Domakir on Oct 17, 2016 13:12:03 GMT
Is there anything that actually triggers a fight with Morrigan? I assumed the most that happens is that Morgan leaves for one of three reasons: (1) you refuse the Dark Ritual; (2) you refuse to kill Flemeth for her; or (3) her approval of the Warden gets too low. I'm role playing my Surana as a loyal Circle Mage who clashes with Morrigan on everything and I don't give no gifts to artificially maintain Morrigan's approval. I want to see how low Morrigan's approval will go and what happens when it reaches rock bottom. I assume she'll leave but don't really know. Canonically in the base game there are restrictions posed by the writers on this character(unlike the others companions)you can't touch her. In the base game is because of the plot so I can understand it. But it is very unfair for those who doesn't like Morrigan if in Witch Hunt you chose to stab her because that decision doesn't even matter in DAI. She doesn't even coment about it. I find it kind of unfair for those who decided to do that to be honest. And she's my favorite character but in a game in which your desicions -supposedly- have any kind of impact in your world is disrespectful to the players if that decision is not reflected in the next game. It happened with Leliana and BioWare tried to correct their mistake (unsatisfactorily in my opinion) but not even that with Morrigan.
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Post by phoray on Oct 17, 2016 14:03:39 GMT
Canonically in the base game there are restrictions posed by the writers on this character(unlike the others companions)you can't touch her. In the base game is because of the plot so I can understand it. But it is very unfair for those who doesn't like Morrigan if in Witch Hunt you chose to stab her because that decision doesn't even matter in DAI. She doesn't even coment about it. I find it kind of unfair for those who decided to do that to be honest. And she's my favorite character but in a game in which your desicions -supposedly- have any kind of impact in your world is disrespectful to the players if that decision is not reflected in the next game. It happened with Leliana and BioWare tried to correct their mistake (unsatisfactorily in my opinion) but not even that with Morrigan. Morrigan is naturally secretive. She only opens up to the Warden over a year of extensive travel and a lot of like minded discussions and gifts in her YOUTH. Why would a secretive 30 year old hedge mage who hangs out in your courtyard garden ever open up to you about WHY she dislikes the HoF? I think that Morrigan recognizes the fact that the Warden stabbed her by how she relates her impression of the HoF to the Inquisitor? I went investigatig, and what I read implied that there is a "Stabbing" bug where for some reason having stabbed Morrigan raises the flags of romance. But if that bug is fixed... I just feel like I'm sure I've watched her say rather cool and negative words about the HoF if they didn't do the Dark Ritual.
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Post by deadlydwarf on Oct 17, 2016 14:21:57 GMT
I told Flemeth I'd keep the Grimoire for myself and she attacked me. When you get back to camp, there's no way to talk to Morrigan about what you've done without giving her the Grimoire. Therefore, I returned to camp, put Morrigan in her new robes, and that was it...no fireworks. My warden keeps the Grimoire. I have never understood why a warden would like to have that grimoire if they cannot use it,but that beside the point,The warden can gain the grimoire even without fighting vs Flemeth. Fight Flemeth is useful for XP but XP is a gameplay mechaninc not one that concern lore,logically why a person should become stronger just because they killed an animal? In the case of my current PT, my Warden is a mage. What mage wouldn't want Flemeth's Grimoire? Not useful for a warrior or rogue Warden, but if they hate Morrigan, they might not want to give her something that would increase her power. As to the fight, my Warden agreed to let Flemeth go and went into the hut to get the robes and Grimoire. She then made the mistake of boasting to Flemeth that she would keep the Grimoire for herself. Apparently, Flemeth didn't like that and started the fight. My complaint is that there's no way to finish the quest in accordance with the "I'll keep it for myself" decision. The quest remains open until you turn the Grimoire over to Morrigan. (And that, of course, would really make my Warden's fight with Flemeth pointless.)
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Post by oyabun on Oct 17, 2016 14:35:08 GMT
I have never understood why a warden would like to have that grimoire if they cannot use it,but that beside the point,The warden can gain the grimoire even without fighting vs Flemeth. Fight Flemeth is useful for XP but XP is a gameplay mechaninc not one that concern lore,logically why a person should become stronger just because they killed an animal? In the case of my current PT, my Warden is a mage. What mage wouldn't want Flemeth's Grimoire? Not useful for a warrior or rogue Warden, but if they hate Morrigan, they might not want to give her something that would increase her power. As to the fight, my Warden agreed to let Flemeth go and went into the hut to get the robes and Grimoire. She then made the mistake of boasting to Flemeth that she would keep the Grimoire for herself. Apparently, Flemeth didn't like that and started the fight. My complaint is that there's no way to finish the quest in accordance with the "I'll keep it for myself" decision. The quest remains open until you turn the Grimoire over to Morrigan. (And that, of course, would really make my Warden's fight with Flemeth pointless.) The Grimoire does not seem to be useful for a warden mage(you can't use it in the game is just in the inventory) unless you was trained by Flemeth and her school of magic and even if you give that book to Morrigan she doesn't learn anything form it,at least not in the game. My guess is that Morrigan believe that the Grimoire contain powerful spells but she has never seen it,so it is entirely possible that the Grimoire wasn't that special considering that Flemeth does not try to hide it from the warden and from what it is stated in the Toolset she(Flemeth who wrote that book) think that Morrigan can have it because it isn't a big deal for her. Flemeth only cared for the first Grimoire the one that the templars stole from her she complained only about that Grimoire because it had critical info about her and Mythal.
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Post by deadlydwarf on Oct 17, 2016 14:44:32 GMT
In the case of my current PT, my Warden is a mage. What mage wouldn't want Flemeth's Grimoire? Not useful for a warrior or rogue Warden, but if they hate Morrigan, they might not want to give her something that would increase her power. As to the fight, my Warden agreed to let Flemeth go and went into the hut to get the robes and Grimoire. She then made the mistake of boasting to Flemeth that she would keep the Grimoire for herself. Apparently, Flemeth didn't like that and started the fight. My complaint is that there's no way to finish the quest in accordance with the "I'll keep it for myself" decision. The quest remains open until you turn the Grimoire over to Morrigan. (And that, of course, would really make my Warden's fight with Flemeth pointless.) The Grimoire does not seem to be useful for a warden mage(you can't use it in the game is just in the inventory) unless you was trained by Flemeth and her school of magic and even if you give that book to Morrigan she doesn't learn anything form it,at least not in the game. My guess is that Morrigan believe that the Grimoire contain powerful spells but she has never seen it,so it is entirely possible that the Grimoire wasn't that special considering that Flemeth does not try to hide it from the warden and from what it is stated in the Toolset she(Flemeth who wrote that book) think that Morrigan can have it because it isn't a big deal for her. The Grimoire doesn't benefit your Warden from a game mechanics perspective, but from a role-playing perspective, a book of spells from a notorious witch seems like an important find for a mage. Remember what Morrigan says when she gives you the quest; she believes that - possibly - Flemeth wanted Morrigan to join the Warden so as to further develop her powers so that when Flemeth was ready to change bodies, she would inherit a more developed mage body from Morrigan. Giving the Grimoire to Morrigan might help further Morrigan's power as a mage (story-wise only); that might be the reason she attacks a Warden who decides to keep the Grimoire.
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Post by phoray on Oct 17, 2016 14:56:16 GMT
The Grimoire does not seem to be useful for a warden mage(you can't use it in the game is just in the inventory) unless you was trained by Flemeth and her school of magic and even if you give that book to Morrigan she doesn't learn anything form it,at least not in the game. My guess is that Morrigan believe that the Grimoire contain powerful spells but she has never seen it,so it is entirely possible that the Grimoire wasn't that special considering that Flemeth does not try to hide it from the warden and from what it is stated in the Toolset she(Flemeth who wrote that book) think that Morrigan can have it because it isn't a big deal for her. The Grimoire doesn't benefit your Warden from a game mechanics perspective, but from a role-playing perspective, a book of spells from a notorious witch seems like an important find for a mage. Remember what Morrigan says when she gives you the quest; she believes that - possibly - Flemeth wanted Morrigan to join the Warden so as to further develop her powers so that when Flemeth was ready to change bodies, she would inherit a more developed mage body from Morrigan. Giving the Grimoire to Morrigan might help further Morrigan's power as a mage (story-wise only); that might be the reason she attacks a Warden who decides to keep the Grimoire. Nothing useful to say. Just, "oooo. the plot thickens." Thoughts continue: Only thing is, I don't believe Flemeth to be Ms. Big Evil after DAI and the comics. Flemeth always had Yavana as a back up. Yavana, a witch who was totally in on ALL the Flemeth business. Also, Flemeth says a soul can't be forced on the unwilling. If Morrigan had gotten the whole story, instead of assuming the whole story, she may have even volunteered. I mean, that's what's implied. But Flemeth even seems hurt that Morrigan hates her so much in DAI.
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N3
I'm a good person, but I don't practice it.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 382 Likes: 1,032
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I'm a good person, but I don't practice it.
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Post by Domakir on Oct 17, 2016 15:14:30 GMT
In the base game is because of the plot so I can understand it. But it is very unfair for those who doesn't like Morrigan if in Witch Hunt you chose to stab her because that decision doesn't even matter in DAI. She doesn't even coment about it. I find it kind of unfair for those who decided to do that to be honest. And she's my favorite character but in a game in which your desicions -supposedly- have any kind of impact in your world is disrespectful to the players if that decision is not reflected in the next game. It happened with Leliana and BioWare tried to correct their mistake (unsatisfactorily in my opinion) but not even that with Morrigan. Morrigan is naturally secretive. She only opens up to the Warden over a year of extensive travel and a lot of like minded discussions and gifts in her YOUTH. Why would a secretive 30 year old hedge mage who hangs out in your courtyard garden ever open up to you about WHY she dislikes the HoF? I think that Morrigan recognizes the fact that the Warden stabbed her by how she relates her impression of the HoF to the Inquisitor? I went investigatig, and what I read implied that there is a "Stabbing" bug where for some reason having stabbed Morrigan raises the flags of romance. But if that bug is fixed... I just feel like I'm sure I've watched her say rather cool and negative words about the HoF if they didn't do the Dark Ritual. I must admit that I've never played this worldstate I'm saying what I've heard from friends and seen on YouTube. One of my friends told me that the only thing Morrigan says about a HoF who stabbed her was that they didn't part on good terms and that she regreted it. I should see if there is a mod that fixes this bug I'd like to know how that conversation about the HoF is.
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deadlydwarf
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
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Post by deadlydwarf on Oct 17, 2016 17:27:07 GMT
The Grimoire doesn't benefit your Warden from a game mechanics perspective, but from a role-playing perspective, a book of spells from a notorious witch seems like an important find for a mage. Remember what Morrigan says when she gives you the quest; she believes that - possibly - Flemeth wanted Morrigan to join the Warden so as to further develop her powers so that when Flemeth was ready to change bodies, she would inherit a more developed mage body from Morrigan. Giving the Grimoire to Morrigan might help further Morrigan's power as a mage (story-wise only); that might be the reason she attacks a Warden who decides to keep the Grimoire. Nothing useful to say. Just, "oooo. the plot thickens." Thoughts continue: Only thing is, I don't believe Flemeth to be Ms. Big Evil after DAI and the comics. Flemeth always had Yavana as a back up. Yavana, a witch who was totally in on ALL the Flemeth business. Also, Flemeth says a soul can't be forced on the unwilling. If Morrigan had gotten the whole story, instead of assuming the whole story, she may have even volunteered. I mean, that's what's implied. But Flemeth even seems hurt that Morrigan hates her so much in DAI. Just having my Surana think aloud with the information she had available! She distrusts Morrigan and did not like killing Flemeth, the one who saved her at Ostagar. OTOH, Flemeth wouldn't answer a straight question. Her words and actions left Neria wondering if Morrigan was right about her mother? Now which comics did Yavana appear in? I have the comics where Alistair goes searching for his father and I read the first three books. What am I missing? I did get the idea from DAI that Flemeth was more benevolent toward Morrigan than you are left thinking after Origins.
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deadlydwarf
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
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Post by deadlydwarf on Oct 17, 2016 17:44:51 GMT
Is there anything that actually triggers a fight with Morrigan? I assumed the most that happens is that Morgan leaves for one of three reasons: (1) you refuse the Dark Ritual; (2) you refuse to kill Flemeth for her; or (3) her approval of the Warden gets too low. I'm role playing my Surana as a loyal Circle Mage who clashes with Morrigan on everything and I don't give no gifts to artificially maintain Morrigan's approval. I want to see how low Morrigan's approval will go and what happens when it reaches rock bottom. I assume she'll leave but don't really know. Unless you mod the game like i did(I killed her in my timeline then i fixed the Reclieffe stage to work even without her)no,you have to wait until the last Dlc to trigger a canon fight. Canonically in the base game there are restrictions posed by the writers on this character(unlike the others companions)you can't touch her. You actually created a mod that allows you to fight and kill Morrigan? Neat! Did you upload it to Nexusmods? Ideally, I think it would be good to have a mod where you fight her when her approval gets ridiculously low, but instead of having her die when you beat her, she turns into a bat and flies off. (Shapeshift ability has to be good for something!) That, at least, wouldn't interfere with canon too much. After all...you can ask her to leave any time.
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