Gileadan
N5
Agent 46
Clearance Level Ultra
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Gileadan on Feb 25, 2019 14:55:57 GMT
A way to add variety to online games that usually does not require a patch, unless completely new content assets are required for it. For example, Anthem recently had the in-game event called "Here Be Giants" - it spawned additional titan enemies on the map and gave a specific reward for killing them. This event was only active for a certain amount of time, and afterwards the map returned to normal. Live service ideally helps with player retention by adding time limited missions and associated reward opportunities. The longer players stay with the game, the more likely they are to buy microtransactions.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 25, 2019 15:06:03 GMT
I'm relieved at its mediocre launch. As much as i want DA4 i want a SP RPG DA4 not an anthemised one. I have to agree. If Anthem had been a huge success, then we could have expected the formula to repeat in DA4, or for EA to pull the plug on Dragon Age entirely and devote all resources to Anthem. There is now the possibility of EA shuttering BioWare or laying off staff as punishment, of course. I’ll be sad if that happens. But it might also prompt some higher-up at EA to take a light touch on DA4 and abandon plans to turn into some lootbox-laden live service monstrosity. I don't think I buy the mechanism of action here. The criticisms of Anthem that are actually landing aren't that it's a lootbox-laden live service monstrosity, it's that it isn't very good at being a lootbox-laden live service monstrosity.
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Post by thats1evildude on Feb 25, 2019 16:59:33 GMT
I have to agree. If Anthem had been a huge success, then we could have expected the formula to repeat in DA4, or for EA to pull the plug on Dragon Age entirely and devote all resources to Anthem. There is now the possibility of EA shuttering BioWare or laying off staff as punishment, of course. I’ll be sad if that happens. But it might also prompt some higher-up at EA to take a light touch on DA4 and abandon plans to turn into some lootbox-laden live service monstrosity. I don't think I buy the mechanism of action here. The criticisms of Anthem that are actually landing aren't that it's a lootbox-laden live service monstrosity, it's that it isn't very good at being a lootbox-laden live service monstrosity. But if it had been good at being a live service monstrosity (LSM), that would have formed the blueprint for a Dragon Age-themed version. Proof of concept and all that.
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Go Team!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Feb 25, 2019 17:22:42 GMT
I really hoped Anthem would be successful, although not a game genre I would play. Reviews are mediocre at best, although it seems that there are those who like the game and are playing it. I don't understand why another game was released with apparently so many issues, just like MEA. Seems a little self-defeating no? It's not a genre I normally play either but seeing as there aren't any other games on my radar atm I decided t o give Anthem a shot. I'm kind of glad I did as it's not been to bad to try playing solo the biggest problem I've had is with the boss level enemies but as long as you remember the traditional stay mobile and pick them off trick that works with most Bioware bosses in ME and DA you should be OK. Because although I did find it tough that helped me through. At least whilst using the Ranger Javelin anyway.
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Post by wright1978 on Feb 25, 2019 17:54:49 GMT
A boogieman around these parts, even though it's necessary for any sort of game of this scope nowadays developed in North America. A live service is a design paradigm where content continues to be released after launch. It's already existed for any game that has ever had DLC. Production costs are high as ever. Development takes a lot longer than it used to because of increased standards. Yet games have stayed the same price. I don’t really buy it’s just DLC argument. DLC could technically be described as live service but i doubt it meets the ea criteria.
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Post by thats1evildude on Feb 25, 2019 18:13:38 GMT
It isn’t “base game plus DLC,” and it’s disingenuous for others to suggest otherwise. Were that the case, DAO would be a “live service game.”
It’s “extremely limited base game plus daily and weekly events/rewards to keep you playing in perpetuity, plus added microtransactions to justify the continued support.”
Calling them “games as a service” is misleading. It’s games as a second job.
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Post by inquisitor007 on Feb 25, 2019 19:47:45 GMT
The cost of game development has gone up, but it's also true that the market has grown immensely. The video game industry now rivals the movie industry. More people than ever play games, therefore there are many more potential customers. I mean, it used to be that if you were a middle-aged man playing video games, people would look at you funny. Now it's almost expected that a middle-aged man would play video games at least occasionally. Imo, the main reason we have these "games as service" models is corporate greed + the internet. The internet allows micro-transactions to exist and so naturally the industry robber barons will exploit it to the fullest degree possible.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 25, 2019 20:05:52 GMT
I don't think I buy the mechanism of action here. The criticisms of Anthem that are actually landing aren't that it's a lootbox-laden live service monstrosity, it's that it isn't very good at being a lootbox-laden live service monstrosity. But if it had been good at being a live service monstrosity (LSM), that would have formed the blueprint for a Dragon Age-themed version. Proof of concept and all that. I suppose so. Maybe there never was a good outcome here.
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Post by Polka Dot on Feb 25, 2019 20:49:16 GMT
For those who enjoy modding their game, I'd like to point out that GaaS can make that outright impossible.
Using mods generally requires the player to turn off automatic updates to their game, so you don't end up with version mismatches between the mod and the game. Under the GaaS model, I don't know whether it'd be possible to turn automatic updates off, which means any mod you attempt to apply would be written over as soon as you start up the game.
Also, with live service games the actual content is sometimes running on a server, not your local platform - which is another barrier to modding.
ETA: I especially wonder what a live service DA4 might mean for console players. As I understand it, they have to pay fees to subscribe to online services for their respective platforms, which could make it a more expensive proposition for them.
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Post by thats1evildude on Feb 25, 2019 20:57:12 GMT
But if it had been good at being a live service monstrosity (LSM), that would have formed the blueprint for a Dragon Age-themed version. Proof of concept and all that. I suppose so. Maybe there never was a good outcome here. Now you’re getting it!
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Post by river82 on Feb 25, 2019 21:04:53 GMT
So the problem people have with 'live service' isn't the technical definition of the word. Theoretically it sounds rad, you get a game which is continuously updated, who could have a problem with that?
Unfortunately the reality of the situation has proven to be that you get a game which is about half finished, and the devs will finish the game after you bought it and deliver it to you digitally `over ze internet'.
People are getting really sick of this stuff as well.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 25, 2019 21:08:00 GMT
So the problem people have with 'live service' isn't the technical definition of the word. Theoretically it sounds rad, you get a game which is continuously updated, who could have a problem with that? Unfortunately the reality of the situation has proven to be that you get a game which is about half finished, and the devs will finish the game after you bought it and deliver it to you digitally `over ze internet'. People are getting really sick of this stuff as well. that hasnt been the reality in any LS game ive played.
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Post by biggydx on Feb 25, 2019 21:13:10 GMT
It depends on how Live Service is handled. I'd say Assassins Creed Odyssey is an example of live service because it updates the game with daily and weekly challenges (to earn a currency to buy premium items), in addition to the occasional story mission, new gear, new progression features, and new enemies. All this if for free btw. This is supplemental to their actual paid DLC.
All we know so far is that the next Dragon Age is to have live service elements in it. We dont know yet if it'll have traditional DLC as well.
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Post by river82 on Feb 25, 2019 21:15:17 GMT
So the problem people have with 'live service' isn't the technical definition of the word. Theoretically it sounds rad, you get a game which is continuously updated, who could have a problem with that? Unfortunately the reality of the situation has proven to be that you get a game which is about half finished, and the devs will finish the game after you bought it and deliver it to you digitally `over ze internet'. People are getting really sick of this stuff as well. that hasnt been the reality in any LS game ive played. Anthem, Destiny 2, Division all have problems with lack of content at launch. Anthem not only has lack of content, it has no loot system in a looter shooter (all the loot looks the same), enemy AI is atrocious and will sometimes just stand there and look at you, and there's barely any end game (3 strongholds).
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Post by colfoley on Feb 25, 2019 21:17:12 GMT
It depends on how Live Service is handled. I'd say Assassins Creed Odyssey is an example of live service because it updates the game with daily and weekly challenges (to earn a currency to buy premium items), in addition to the occasional story mission, new gear, new progression features, and new enemies. This is supplemental to their actual paid DLC. All we know so far is that the next Dragon Age is to have live service elements in it. We dont know yet if it'll have traditional DLC as well. i think traditional DLC is a live service. But the difference now is that games are being designed with that in mind plus more continious updates. Hell with that in mind TW3 fit the definition of a live service game.
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Post by biggydx on Feb 25, 2019 21:19:29 GMT
It depends on how Live Service is handled. I'd say Assassins Creed Odyssey is an example of live service because it updates the game with daily and weekly challenges (to earn a currency to buy premium items), in addition to the occasional story mission, new gear, new progression features, and new enemies. This is supplemental to their actual paid DLC. All we know so far is that the next Dragon Age is to have live service elements in it. We dont know yet if it'll have traditional DLC as well. i think traditional DLC is a live service. But the difference now is that games are being designed with that in mind plus more continious updates. Hell with that in mind TW3 fit the definition of a live service game. Not as strongly, but to some extent yes; due to it's free items and story missions. That said, I'm still not sure if I would class traditional DLC as live service. It's something that has to be purchased, and requires a large install size for it to be pushed server side with ease.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 25, 2019 21:20:12 GMT
that hasnt been the reality in any LS game ive played. Anthem, Destiny 2, Division all have problems with lack of content at launch. Anthem not only has lack of content, it has no loot system in a looter shooter (all the loot looks the same), enemy AI is atrocious and will sometimes just stand there and look at you, and there's barely any end game (3 strongholds). 1. Boo hoo. 2. All of those games are multiplayer games first. Sp ls games dont have this problem. 3. All story updates, at least for Anthem are free. No seasons pass and no shelling out money for content. 4. The rest sounds like bugs which all games have those.
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Post by river82 on Feb 25, 2019 21:24:11 GMT
Anthem, Destiny 2, Division all have problems with lack of content at launch. Anthem not only has lack of content, it has no loot system in a looter shooter (all the loot looks the same), enemy AI is atrocious and will sometimes just stand there and look at you, and there's barely any end game (3 strongholds). 1. Boo hoo. 2. All of those games are multiplayer games first. Sp ls games dont have this problem. 3. All story updates, at least for Anthem are free. No seasons pass and no shelling out money for content. 4. The rest sounds like bugs which all games have those. You are a) changing the goal posts. Now it's not LS games that are a problem, just multiplayer LS games that are the problem. You are not addressing the issue. The issues was never you had to pay to get a better experience from Anthem. Anyway to address BiggyDX's point, DLC was the first steps into the live service world, but when people talk about live service games, games "with DLC" aren't the games that come to mind. Live service games tend to be games constantly updated by the devs rather than updated sporadically in a large dump.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 25, 2019 21:25:24 GMT
1. Boo hoo. 2. All of those games are multiplayer games first. Sp ls games dont have this problem. 3. All story updates, at least for Anthem are free. No seasons pass and no shelling out money for content. 4. The rest sounds like bugs which all games have those. You are a) changing the goal posts. Now it's not LS games that are a problem, just multiplayer LS games that are the problem. You are not addressing the issue. The issues was never you had to pay to get a better experience from Anthem. Anyway to address BiggyDX's point, DLC was the first steps into the live service world, but when people talk about live service games, games "with DLC" aren't the games that come to mind. Live service games tend to be games constantly updated by the devs rather than updated sporadically in a large dump. So would free patches/updates also count as live service?
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Post by river82 on Feb 25, 2019 21:27:21 GMT
You are a) changing the goal posts. Now it's not LS games that are a problem, just multiplayer LS games that are the problem. You are not addressing the issue. The issues was never you had to pay to get a better experience from Anthem. Anyway to address BiggyDX's point, DLC was the first steps into the live service world, but when people talk about live service games, games "with DLC" aren't the games that come to mind. Live service games tend to be games constantly updated by the devs rather than updated sporadically in a large dump. So would free patches/updates also count as live service? I hate using Wikipedia as a source but I'm doing something at the moment and it's just the easiest thing to grab: In video gaming, games as a service (GaaS) represents providing video games or game content on a continuing revenue model, similar to software as a service. Games as a service are ways to monetize video games either after their initial sale, or to support a free-to-play model. Games released under the GaaS model typically receive a long or indefinite stream of monetized new content over time to encourage players to continue paying to support the game. This often leads to games that work under a GaaS model to be called "living games" or "live games", since they continually change with these updates.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Games_as_a_service
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Post by river82 on Feb 25, 2019 21:39:15 GMT
There seems to be a disconnect with how the community are using "live service" and how ... Casey uses the term? So Bioware use "live service" in connection with Dragon Age, and then Casey comes out to say "it just means how we're going to deliver additional content after the game" ignoring that "live service" actually means a specific thing in the community, and it doesn't really allay fears? I mean, why would you even?
I talk about how Bioware seem to be really tone deaf these days, and it's just example after example. Linking "live service" with Dragon Age isn't exactly producing good feels in the community.
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Conquer Your Dreams
N3
Say that you love me
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: stescooter100
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Post by Conquer Your Dreams on Feb 25, 2019 21:40:39 GMT
I only hope that DA4 will be 100% SINGLE PLAYER EXPERIENCE.
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Post by thats1evildude on Feb 25, 2019 21:42:49 GMT
Watch Mojo has a pretty good explanation of the "live service/games as a service" concept and how it's an evolution of the free-to-play model. It also discusses their biggest potential flaw — namely, what happens when the market is saturated with live service games?
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Post by colfoley on Feb 25, 2019 21:43:30 GMT
1. Boo hoo. 2. All of those games are multiplayer games first. Sp ls games dont have this problem. 3. All story updates, at least for Anthem are free. No seasons pass and no shelling out money for content. 4. The rest sounds like bugs which all games have those. You are a) changing the goal posts. Now it's not LS games that are a problem, just multiplayer LS games that are the problem. You are not addressing the issue. The issues was never you had to pay to get a better experience from Anthem. Anyway to address BiggyDX's point, DLC was the first steps into the live service world, but when people talk about live service games, games "with DLC" aren't the games that come to mind. Live service games tend to be games constantly updated by the devs rather than updated sporadically in a large dump. A. No i'm not. I've never considered LS games a problem. In fact I'm looking forward to DA 4 being one. Multiplayer games on the other hand... B. Perhaps not but then i don't see the issue here in the first place. Certain gamers were whining over games having lootboxes and were unfinished with paid dlc finishing the game... Now people are whigning over all that being free. I mean seriously how much content does Anthem have at launch? I believe I've heard as high as fifty hours which is pretty typical of a 60 dollar bioware game pre Inquisition.
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Post by river82 on Feb 25, 2019 21:50:21 GMT
You are a) changing the goal posts. Now it's not LS games that are a problem, just multiplayer LS games that are the problem. You are not addressing the issue. The issues was never you had to pay to get a better experience from Anthem. Anyway to address BiggyDX's point, DLC was the first steps into the live service world, but when people talk about live service games, games "with DLC" aren't the games that come to mind. Live service games tend to be games constantly updated by the devs rather than updated sporadically in a large dump. A. No i'm not. I've never considered LS games a problem. In fact I'm looking forward to DA 4 being one. Multiplayer games on the other hand... B. Perhaps not but then i don't see the issue here in the first place. Certain gamers were whining over games having lootboxes and were unfinished with paid dlc finishing the game... Now people are whigning over all that being free. I mean seriously how much content does Anthem have at launch? I believe I've heard as high as fifty hours which is pretty typical of a 60 dollar bioware game pre Inquisition. B ) People finish the main quest in about 20 hours, and there's not much end game content. You can extend that experience but the world is pretty empty, and the environment is all the same. Also consider that the people who splurged out the most for that game, the ULTRA, SPECIAL, SUPER DUPER COMBO ULTIMATE VERSION got a horrible copy of the game and the guy who buys it for half price, and a fifth of the price of that special edition, gets a great version. People tend to call that - horrible corporate behaviour, or not rewarding your hardest fans. Anyway, as the video above states people are not defining LS games correctly. When Bioware says "live service" it means a very specific thing with the community because the community believe "live service" to be a very specific thing. Look up "live service" or "game as a service" and within that definition it's rare to find "dlc game"
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