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Post by Iddy on Feb 6, 2019 14:23:15 GMT
Is it a result from the HoF's competence or is there something that made it of a smaller scale?
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Post by mousestalker on Feb 6, 2019 14:56:31 GMT
The Warden was just that good.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Feb 6, 2019 21:54:00 GMT
It's explained at the end that the Blight was ended before it really began. The darkspawn began amassing in the Kokari Wilds and then went into Ferelden. Before it got a chance to spread farther, it was ended by the HoF. In the past, Blights have managed to spread, causing significant continent-wide damage and destruction; that was all averted this time around.
While, yes, the HoF ended the Blight, a huge part of this is down to the early warning of the darkspawn in the Kokari Wilds and the initial formation of the military at Ostagar that led to Duncan seeking new recruits. The HoF had nothing to do with that.
In the end, it's a combination of good timing and the HoF being competent.
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Post by boxofscreaming on Feb 7, 2019 0:39:29 GMT
I'm guessing it was just a bit of a crap Blight. Alistair says there are "thousands - maybe tens of thousands" of Darkspawn. Now obviously the population of Ferelden will be small by our standards, but that's still not an unstoppable horde - not compared to the First Blight, say.
Remember the Grey Wardens were more numerous in the past and the rulers of those times most likely took them more seriously.
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Post by Lazarillo on Feb 7, 2019 2:26:22 GMT
Something like this, maybe?
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Post by Iddy on Feb 7, 2019 16:03:32 GMT
I'm guessing it was just a bit of a crap Blight. Alistair says there are "thousands - maybe tens of thousands" of Darkspawn. Now obviously the population of Ferelden will be small by our standards, but that's still not an unstoppable horde - not compared to the First Blight, say. Remember the Grey Wardens were more numerous in the past and the rulers of those times most likely took them more seriously. Janeka seemed to think that way. She said it was "the least of the Blights".
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Post by Nightscrawl on Feb 8, 2019 1:00:22 GMT
Janeka seemed to think that way. She said it was "the least of the Blights". That's because it was ended...
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Post by capn233 on Feb 9, 2019 16:51:02 GMT
Yeah HOF is great. But probably also a factor is what you learn at the end of Awakening. The 5th Blight was started "artificially" by the Architect when he attempted to perform his pseudo joining ritual on Urthemiel in a botched attempt to make that old god a disciple, as part of his grand scheme to give darkspawn free will.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 18, 2019 2:22:40 GMT
I'm gonna say dumb luck and interventions from both Flemeth and the Architect, respectively. Helped by the relative competence of a few other characters. It sure as hell wasn't great planning. My warden goes to bed every night wondering whether to thank Duncan's memory for saving her life or curse him for being such a piss-poor Warden Commander. The First Warden and Riordan too. Many a bitching session with Loghain over mulled wine has circled the topic.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Feb 19, 2019 14:07:24 GMT
Something like this, maybe? That's been a factor for most of the Blights, but it can't have made much difference in this one. It's true that every Blight has been shorter than the one before it, and what you're describing is probably the reason most of the time, but this time there were only three Wardens (two for most of it,) and the two Wardens who handled most of it knew almost none of the procedure. I think the real reason was just that Urthemiel showed himself too early. We see the darkspawn leave when he dies, even though they probably still could have destroyed Denerim. So if Urthemiel had commanded that one from behind the lines the way he had Ostagar, Denerim would have fallen and the darkspawn would have had time to get started wiping out the rest of Ferelden. Probably a lot of the reason he showed his hand that early was the win at Ostagar, where not only did he win big against the Wardens, he perceived that they didn't have griffins anymore. So with almost no Wardens and absolutely no griffins in evidence, Urthemiel felt safe risking himself, since he (semi-reasonably) thought he was invincible.
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Post by melbella on Feb 20, 2019 2:12:27 GMT
Probably a lot of the reason he showed his hand that early was the win at Ostagar, where not only did he win big against the Wardens, he perceived that they didn't have griffins anymore. So with almost no Wardens and absolutely no griffins in evidence, Urthemiel felt safe risking himself, since he (semi-reasonably) thought he was invincible. Just how certain are we that an Archdemon is a thinking/reasoning creature? They seem more driven mad by the Blight than anything else. If able to reason and press the advantage, the horde should have just kept moving north after Ostagar instead of disappearing for months.
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Post by Iddy on Feb 20, 2019 11:41:12 GMT
Probably a lot of the reason he showed his hand that early was the win at Ostagar, where not only did he win big against the Wardens, he perceived that they didn't have griffins anymore. So with almost no Wardens and absolutely no griffins in evidence, Urthemiel felt safe risking himself, since he (semi-reasonably) thought he was invincible. Just how certain are we that an Archdemon is a thinking/reasoning creature? They seem more driven mad by the Blight than anything else. If able to reason and press the advantage, the horde should have just kept moving north after Ostagar instead of disappearing for months. Read the Last Flight. The Archdemon may not speak, but still is a very intelligent creature. Sometimes, Andoral pretended to retreat only to crush them twice as hard in the next moment. Other times, it unexpectedly drew the darkspawn away from traps.
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Post by melbella on Feb 20, 2019 12:59:28 GMT
Read the Last Flight. The Archdemon may not speak, but still is a very intelligent creature. Sometimes, Andoral pretended to retreat only to crush them twice as hard in the next moment. Other times, it unexpectedly drew the darkspawn away from traps. I have. But however Andoral acted has nothing to do with how Urthemiel acted, especially since being awoken prematurely instead of the normal way.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Feb 20, 2019 13:36:52 GMT
Probably a lot of the reason he showed his hand that early was the win at Ostagar, where not only did he win big against the Wardens, he perceived that they didn't have griffins anymore. So with almost no Wardens and absolutely no griffins in evidence, Urthemiel felt safe risking himself, since he (semi-reasonably) thought he was invincible. Just how certain are we that an Archdemon is a thinking/reasoning creature? They seem more driven mad by the Blight than anything else. If able to reason and press the advantage, the horde should have just kept moving north after Ostagar instead of disappearing for months. But isn't pressing forward exactly what an unreasoning creature would do? Maybe there's reasons for a reasoning creature to do it too, but if it's got no brains and only wants to destroy things I'd expect it to push forward even if there's reason not to. Part of the reason I'd assumed it had to be a reasoning creature is that it only makes sense for the Archdemon to hold back as long as it did if it guessed (or divined) that Ferelden was going to fall to infighting, and that it could soften up its opposition without losing soldiers by just kicking back and relaxing in the Korcari Wilds. And that plan worked pretty well, didn't it? A Civil War started, and the darkspawn just nibbled around the edges and let most of the humans kill each other while they took out the ones farthest to the south.
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Post by Iddy on Feb 20, 2019 13:39:17 GMT
Just how certain are we that an Archdemon is a thinking/reasoning creature? They seem more driven mad by the Blight than anything else. If able to reason and press the advantage, the horde should have just kept moving north after Ostagar instead of disappearing for months. But isn't pressing forward exactly what an unreasoning creature would do? Maybe there's reasons for a reasoning creature to do it too, but if it's got no brains and only wants to destroy things I'd expect it to push forward even if there's reason not to. Part of the reason I'd assumed it had to be a reasoning creature is that it only makes sense for the Archdemon to hold back as long as it did if it guessed (or divined) that Ferelden was going to fall to infighting, and that it could soften up its opposition without losing soldiers by just kicking back and relaxing in the Korcari Wilds. And that plan worked pretty well, didn't it? A Civil War started, and the darkspawn just nibbled around the edges and let most of the humans kill each other while they took out the ones farthest to the south. I found that weird too, because the 4th Blight's Archdemon went on an all out offensive from the start.
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Post by Lazarillo on Feb 21, 2019 1:24:24 GMT
Part of the reason I'd assumed it had to be a reasoning creature is that it only makes sense for the Archdemon to hold back as long as it did if it guessed (or divined) that Ferelden was going to fall to infighting, and that it could soften up its opposition without losing soldiers by just kicking back and relaxing in the Korcari Wilds. And that plan worked pretty well, didn't it? A Civil War started, and the darkspawn just nibbled around the edges and let most of the humans kill each other while they took out the ones farthest to the south. I generally figure it was part this, and part that Ostagar was mostly a "success" in the sense that it at least stalemated the horde. Granted, Alistair is a biased figure, but he mentions afterwards that even without Loghain's charge, the allied forces were giving as good as they got (which ain't bad, considering how much they got got).
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Feb 21, 2019 1:49:25 GMT
Part of the reason I'd assumed it had to be a reasoning creature is that it only makes sense for the Archdemon to hold back as long as it did if it guessed (or divined) that Ferelden was going to fall to infighting, and that it could soften up its opposition without losing soldiers by just kicking back and relaxing in the Korcari Wilds. And that plan worked pretty well, didn't it? A Civil War started, and the darkspawn just nibbled around the edges and let most of the humans kill each other while they took out the ones farthest to the south. I generally figure it was part this, and part that Ostagar was mostly a "success" in the sense that it at least stalemated the horde. Granted, Alistair is a biased figure, but he mentions afterwards that even without Loghain's charge, the allied forces were giving as good as they got (which ain't bad, considering how much they got got). Well, you're right that he is a biased figure. And before you lit the beacon he was painting a much more desperate picture. I don't remember the exact words, but right before you light the beacon he says that they're sure to have missed their timing, and to light it anyway as a Hail Mary. I went into the Tower of Ishal spoiled, expecting a betrayal. So Loghain leaving wasn't exactly a surprise. But Alistair saying they were lighting it late did surprise me, because it made things a bit more ambiguous than I'd expected. The spoiler I'd been given suggested an unambiguous betrayal, and that the loss was solely on Loghain. Alistair saying that the darkspawn sabotaging the beacon borked the plan (and it should be noted that a mindless Archdemon would have to get pretty lucky to pull that off) suggested something entirely different. And then I was even more surprised when maybe ten minutes of gameplay later, Alistair suggested that the battle would have been a sure win if Loghain hadn't betrayed them, despite his previous lines painting a different picture. I should also mention that we still see darkspawn coming into the battlefield when Duncan dies, which suggests that the darkspawn had the Ferelden army pretty seriously outnumbered, badly enough that Ferelden soldiers killing at the same rate they die at isn't nearly good enough. They beat those odds at Denerim a year later, but only because the darkspawn leave when the Archdemon dies, which wasn't going to happen here. So logically, however far below strength the horde is, wouldn't the Ferelden army be far more so?
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Post by melbella on Feb 21, 2019 2:41:05 GMT
Alistair saying that the darkspawn sabotaging the beacon borked the plan (and it should be noted that a mindless Archdemon would have to get pretty lucky to pull that off) suggested something entirely different.
The other thing to remember about the tower is that *Loghain's men* were (supposedly) guarding it. Who's to say he just said they were guarding it when they weren't, especially since we're also told to keep away per Loghain's orders. It looked to me like a place to keep the dogs and store equipment. There wasn't much guarding going on there.
The darkspawn burrow and dig...it's what they do. I don't see anything unusual about them digging their way to the tower when direct assaults weren't working.
I also don't think Urthemiel was ever in the Korcari Wilds. That's just where the horde started, on their way to finding him in the Deep Roads (where we later see him).
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Feb 21, 2019 3:17:31 GMT
Alistair saying that the darkspawn sabotaging the beacon borked the plan (and it should be noted that a mindless Archdemon would have to get pretty lucky to pull that off) suggested something entirely different.
The other thing to remember about the tower is that *Loghain's men* were (supposedly) guarding it. Who's to say he just said they were guarding it when they weren't, especially since we're also told to keep away per Loghain's orders. It looked to me like a place to keep the dogs and store equipment. There wasn't much guarding going on there.
It's been years, but... don't we discover some corpses there? Of people who had been guarding it? Either way, I'm not sure this invalidates my point that Alistair was worried the battle couldn't be won at this point even if Loghain had charged. But that was the first place they dug to: the darkspawn haven't breached the rest of the camp when we get there and find it already overrun. And it was an improbably good place to start, since the plan depended on that one spot not collapsing. It's not like this is even a stretch: I'll admit that I can't think of any satisfying way for Urthemiel to know that hanging back and letting the humans kill each other would work as well as it did, but listening in on Wardens is something we know he can do (since Riordan can do it to Urthemiel, and Urthemiel uses that same trick to ambush the Warden's camp) and the Wardens knew this plan. He probably wasn't, no. My best guess is that he was somewhere in the Deep Roads, probably near Bownammar, since that was where we saw him first and it was supposed to seriously infested. I don't think he surfaced until he had a decent foothold, plenty of spare bodies in the unlikely event something goes wrong, and circumstances that gave him reason to doubt anything would.
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Post by Sifr on Feb 22, 2019 8:04:09 GMT
Just how certain are we that an Archdemon is a thinking/reasoning creature? They seem more driven mad by the Blight than anything else. If able to reason and press the advantage, the horde should have just kept moving north after Ostagar instead of disappearing for months. I know the devs have said it's non-canon, but the Darkspawn Chronicles did depict Urthemiel as being fairly tactical when directing the Hurlock Alpha to take action on the battlefield.
Even in the main game, the Darkspawn were shown to be intelligent creatures, capable of deliberate planning and action. The Ogre made a beeline for Cailan when he spotted him in the battle and the Darkspawn even bothered to carry Cailan's corpse from the valley below up to the bridge, so they could erect it as a macabre effigy, as well as carry stripped pieces of his armour as trophies.
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Post by Dukemon on Mar 17, 2019 20:52:47 GMT
I went into the Tower of Ishal spoiled, expecting a betrayal. So Loghain leaving wasn't exactly a surprise. But Alistair saying they were lighting it late did surprise me, because it made things a bit more ambiguous than I'd expected. The spoiler I'd been given suggested an unambiguous betrayal, and that the loss was solely on Loghain. Alistair saying that the darkspawn sabotaging the beacon borked the plan (and it should be noted that a mindless Archdemon would have to get pretty lucky to pull that off) suggested something entirely different. And then I was even more surprised when maybe ten minutes of gameplay later, Alistair suggested that the battle would have been a sure win if Loghain hadn't betrayed them, despite his previous lines painting a different picture. The Warden has the dialogue at the beginning of the second floor sth. like "the Darkspawn were knowing of the plan, maybe". Relate to Alistair. I think a mayor problem is that Alistair has pretty different personalities before Lothering and after Lothering. Yep, he remains the little idiot with his Father complex and others he is got. I did not forget his talent for jokes. But Alistairs feels after Lothering like another person. I know the devs have said it's non-canon, but the Darkspawn Chronicles did depict Urthemiel as being fairly tactical when directing the Hurlock Alpha to take action on the battlefield. Same what I wanted to say. Darkspawn Chronicles is not a good Bioware DLC but it gives insight of the behaivor of the Darkspawn. that is a interesting aspect when you think about it afterwards.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Mar 18, 2019 10:43:11 GMT
I went into the Tower of Ishal spoiled, expecting a betrayal. So Loghain leaving wasn't exactly a surprise. But Alistair saying they were lighting it late did surprise me, because it made things a bit more ambiguous than I'd expected. The spoiler I'd been given suggested an unambiguous betrayal, and that the loss was solely on Loghain. Alistair saying that the darkspawn sabotaging the beacon borked the plan (and it should be noted that a mindless Archdemon would have to get pretty lucky to pull that off) suggested something entirely different. And then I was even more surprised when maybe ten minutes of gameplay later, Alistair suggested that the battle would have been a sure win if Loghain hadn't betrayed them, despite his previous lines painting a different picture. The Warden has the dialogue at the beginning of the second floor sth. like "the Darkspawn were knowing of the plan, maybe". Yeah. I'd forgotten that. That's a Cunning line, right? Which implies the devs think it's a good thought. Trauma does that. And when you put it that way, I suppose the 180 makes sense. But my original point was that there was a 180.
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Post by midnight tea on Mar 18, 2019 20:11:59 GMT
It's explained at the end that the Blight was ended before it really began. The darkspawn began amassing in the Kokari Wilds and then went into Ferelden. Before it got a chance to spread farther, it was ended by the HoF. In the past, Blights have managed to spread, causing significant continent-wide damage and destruction; that was all averted this time around. While, yes, the HoF ended the Blight, a huge part of this is down to the early warning of the darkspawn in the Kokari Wilds and the initial formation of the military at Ostagar that led to Duncan seeking new recruits. The HoF had nothing to do with that. In the end, it's a combination of good timing and the HoF being competent. *cough*Flemeth and very convenient Warden treaties she had an eye on for who knows how long and her conveniently living in Korcari wilds*cough* Not saying that that's all there is to it or that she predicted/planned it all. But I'd say that it's definitely a big contributing factor.
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Post by Pounce de León on Mar 20, 2019 12:03:33 GMT
I believe it was the choice of tea. Exceptional year and harvest and you can have a spiffing good season of ol' Blighty.
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Post by anarchy65 on Mar 22, 2019 2:48:35 GMT
A combination of factors, I believe, most already being posted here, but summarizing:
- The 5th blight was "an accident" caused by the Architect, so maybe it wasn't as strong as if "normal" darkspawn had awakened Urthemiel
- They didn't allow the Blight to grow. If the darkspawn had taken Ferelden, maybe Orlais and the other northern powers wouldn't be able to stop it without great sacrifice.
- Duncan took his job very seriously and was friend with a king that actually cared about the Blight as well, so they actually managed to drive the darkspawn off a bit before the defeat at Ostagar, delaying the Blight to get actually serious.
- HoF got incredibly lucky (and also unlucky, since every place he walks in, there is a big problem he must solve), besides being competent.
- Urthemiel got cocky and showed itself, almost taunting the remaining Grey Wardens. But I suppose maybe the Archdemon for some plot reason just can't stay underground forever, it would just make the task of the Grey Wardens nearly impossible.
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