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Post by Iddy on Feb 8, 2019 13:14:12 GMT
If so, when and how?
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LadyofNemesis
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Feb 8, 2019 15:37:57 GMT
My characters always act OOC, they never tend to life up to the personality I give them in my head generally my characters tend to act on the more lawful side of the morality spectrum, whenever they pick any chaotic choices, that for me is ooc for them mostly those choices boil down to killing people (which is ooc for my Hawke who's a pacifist in my head canon), or accepting bribes/money from people they generally wouldn't cooperate with
though the more I play my characters, the more they do become the characters I envision in my head, and in turn they become less ooc in their actions
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Post by Sokemis on Feb 9, 2019 0:20:26 GMT
The one that most comes to mind for me is my canon Warden, Naliea Tabris. Two times for her actually:
1) Accepting Zevran's earring: Although she would have hoped/wanted the earring to mean more, she wouldn't have pushed him into admitted feelings he either didn't have or wasn't ready to admit to. I, as a player, however wanted the damn proposal (especially once I installed the Zevran wedding mod) - so I made her refuse it the first time the earring was offered.
2) The Dark Ritual: She couldn't bring herself to talk Alistair into doing the ritual, know how he felt about Morrigan and how much he didn't want to do it - she would have felt like she was forcing him. She was ready to be a selfless ass and die taking the final blow if Riordian fell before he could. I wasn't as willing to let her sacrifice herself, I want both her alive and Alistair as King. So Alistair did the ritual, Naliea took the final blow, and everyone lived (well except the Archdemon of course).
I have a couple personal headcanons of how those events could have gone that all me to get the outcome I wanted, while still letting her stay true to herself.
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Post by Iddy on Feb 9, 2019 2:10:06 GMT
My Warden is a very strict and harsh person. Thinking back, it was OOC for him to be so patient with Oghren and his antics in Awakening.
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Post by Jarovbees on Feb 9, 2019 5:35:08 GMT
I always kill Vaughan Kendalls in Origins, even if I'm playing a human noble who has every reason to want him alive for Landsmeet votes. Rapist racist fucker is a waste of air.
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LadyofNemesis
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Feb 9, 2019 11:35:49 GMT
I always kill Vaughan Kendalls in Origins, even if I'm playing a human noble who has every reason to want him alive for Landsmeet votes. Rapist racist fucker is a waste of air. I tend to keep him alive for his 'voice' but in my current playthrough my Warden was like "but why did the elves riot?" then he cheerfully explains that you need to put elves in their place and Minerva (my Warden(who romanced Zevran) was like "well nobody missed you, buh-bye *stab*"
I think in every other playthrough he's going to die horribly
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Post by Blaze on Feb 9, 2019 13:37:08 GMT
no.
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Post by Iddy on Feb 9, 2019 17:31:41 GMT
I always kill Vaughan Kendalls in Origins, even if I'm playing a human noble who has every reason to want him alive for Landsmeet votes. Rapist racist fucker is a waste of air. My Warden only killed people who currently are a threat. Vaughan is an asshole, but as far as my character knew he was gonna rot in that dungeon.
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Post by pavellaning on Feb 9, 2019 23:58:34 GMT
Yes. My canonically gay male Trevelyan Galen flirted with Josephine and Cassandra on multiple occasions.
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Post by gervaise21 on Feb 10, 2019 9:31:23 GMT
That scene with Leliana when she is deciding what to do with the spy. The natural reaction for my Inquisitors, but particularly my Dalish Inquisitors, is not to interfere, simply watch how she does things. The reason for this is simple; I am not yet her boss and have only just been recruited myself so it is not my place to tell her how to do her job. As a Dalish it was my task to observe how humans do things, so that is exactly what I am going to do. Also in this particular instance I couldn't actually think of a good reason why I would want to spare the life of a traitor I had never even met.
However, I subsequently discovered that by not actively telling her to spare his life, I am blocking off any possibility of stopping her being a ruthless killer, which if I want her to be Divine is, for me, something of a problem. First game I opted for Cassandra precisely because I couldn't stomach the idea of a blood-thirsty Leliana on the Sunburst Throne. When my Warden who was romancing her specifically asked me to help her find her true self again I was truly upset because I had no possibility of doing so having failed at that early hurdle.
So thereafter, in order to keep my options open, I always stepped in to stop her killing the traitor, even though it went against what my character would normally do. Personally I think the only choice at that stage which should tie you into the ruthless Leliana should be the one where you actively encourage her to kill him. The other two options should have left you still with the possibility of softening her depending on what you did at other stages in the game.
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Post by Sokemis on Feb 10, 2019 16:07:53 GMT
So thereafter, in order to keep my options open, I always stepped in to stop her killing the traitor, even though it went against what my character would normally do. Personally I think the only choice at that stage which should tie you into the ruthless Leliana should be the one where you actively encourage her to kill him. The other two options should have left you still with the possibility of softening her depending on what you did at other stages in the game. I forgot about this one, I've done the same - stepped in when my Inquisitor would have stayed silent, in order to be able to still soften her later. I agree that, if this scene is going to affect anything, only actively encouraging her to kill him should block you from softening her later.
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Post by Iddy on Feb 15, 2019 3:39:09 GMT
Helping Dagna get into the Circle in DAO.
My Warden was supposed to be a "Don't waste time. Focus on the mission" kinda person, but I just couldn't say no to her.
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LadyofNemesis
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Feb 15, 2019 9:45:40 GMT
I found one for my previous Hawke's and this was me playing a mage...I needed approval points with Carver sending Feynriel to the Circle while letting other mages (particularly blood mages (such as Gascard) live, leave and escape
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Post by Walter Black on Feb 15, 2019 22:00:04 GMT
That scene with Leliana when she is deciding what to do with the spy. The natural reaction for my Inquisitors, but particularly my Dalish Inquisitors, is not to interfere, simply watch how she does things. The reason for this is simple; I am not yet her boss and have only just been recruited myself so it is not my place to tell her how to do her job. As a Dalish it was my task to observe how humans do things, so that is exactly what I am going to do. Also in this particular instance I couldn't actually think of a good reason why I would want to spare the life of a traitor I had never even met. However, I subsequently discovered that by not actively telling her to spare his life, I am blocking off any possibility of stopping her being a ruthless killer, which if I want her to be Divine is, for me, something of a problem. First game I opted for Cassandra precisely because I couldn't stomach the idea of a blood-thirsty Leliana on the Sunburst Throne. When my Warden who was romancing her specifically asked me to help her find her true self again I was truly upset because I had no possibility of doing so having failed at that early hurdle. So thereafter, in order to keep my options open, I always stepped in to stop her killing the traitor, even though it went against what my character would normally do. Personally I think the only choice at that stage which should tie you into the ruthless Leliana should be the one where you actively encourage her to kill him. The other two options should have left you still with the possibility of softening her depending on what you did at other stages in the game. I always hated the way Leliana's Personal Quest was set up in Inquisition, in that you have to pick the merciful option every single time. Consistency is one thing, but the quest actively punishes players who want to RP changing and evolving over time. It would have been better if we had a best 2 out of three scenario, where we could Soften Leliana if we had made more positive than negative choices.
Still, I suppose it's it's better than some of the Companions in New Vegas; there, if you wanted to unlock some of their Personal Quests, you had to not just make very specific choices, but have them in specific time and places or risk never triggering them. Looking at you, Boone, Arcade and Raul .
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Noxluxe
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 18, 2019 3:04:22 GMT
I tried to bend over backwards in the early conversations with Fenris to get a rivalry romance going with him without having to be too lenient with mages at actual decision points, or too harsh on him in his vulnerable moments. It didn't work out, and left a bitter aftertaste for the entire rest of the game.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 18, 2019 3:54:42 GMT
I tried to bend over backwards in the early conversations with Fenris to get a rivalry romance going with him without having to be too lenient with mages at actual decision points, or too harsh on him in his vulnerable moments. It didn't work out, and left a bitter aftertaste for the entire rest of the game. Opposite. I liked his rivalry romance with a mage (I don't know, I like better the rivalry or the friendship romance with him) – but not in romance I prefer the friendship: it so good, when he offers his sword to Hawke at the end. But with my warrior, I thought a lot, it was not a mistake to build friendship with Fenris (it was much harder than in my radical red blood mage's case), because Reinhardt heard, when Fenris asked Bethany, that why she doesn't want to go to the Circle, to protect herself, and the others from herself. At the moment Reinhardt was very angry at him. But finally I decided, the friendship makes sense in his case: he was emotional, and while he sends Fenris to the abyss sometimes when he spoke about the mages (because of Bethany and Anders), he understood Fenris' position and appreciated his apologies and devotion. His family was persecuted, he rather was understanding with someone who had such a terrible life. But still sometimes I'm not sure about this decision. By the way, it would be hard to manage the rivalry without having to be "too lenient" with mages... The friendship with Fenris even easier a bit, than the rivalry, if Hawke's a no-compromise radical pro-freedom, and free every mage in the world and kill all the Templars who he just can (like my red mage, who was full friend with him at the beginning of the Act3)... If you managed the rivalry as a pro-Templar, probably Hawke has to hurt Fenris really or become pro-slavery. I can't imagine.
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Noxluxe
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 18, 2019 13:00:40 GMT
I tried to bend over backwards in the early conversations with Fenris to get a rivalry romance going with him without having to be too lenient with mages at actual decision points, or too harsh on him in his vulnerable moments. It didn't work out, and left a bitter aftertaste for the entire rest of the game. If you managed the rivalry as a pro-Templar, probably Hawke has to hurt Fenris really or become pro-slavery. I can't imagine. Yeah, no kidding. I wasn't "pro-templar", I was anti-unstable-and-poorly-trained-mages-walking-the-streets-without-supervision. And yes, friendship would have been easier, but it's hard to know that for certain in advance without having played the game more than once or twice, and as you say the rivalry romance was supposed to be full of lovely sparky dialogue. After I realized that I'd have to support slavery and kick him while he was down to otherwise get the romance going, I abandoned the whole project and moved on to a "mutually good influences" friends-with-benefits relationship with Isabella that had developed naturally in the meantime. In my headcanon, Hawke was nursing a crush on Fenris for her first few years in Kirkwall, and grew out of it when it became obvious that he was still too damaged for any normal relationship. But I'm still annoyed. Also because I'd have liked to be harder on mages in the beginning of the game without having to keep rivalry points in mind. My original idea was for Hawke to be fiercely defensive of Bethany, but otherwise hold every other mage to her father's high standard of sense, honor and self-control, and not trusting them to walk the street if they didn't demonstrate that. Aside from occasionally sounding slightly more mage-freedomy than I'd have liked, that part went okay though. Encouraging apostates to go back to the circle or at least seek the guidance of older and wiser mages, putting the ones beyond sanity out of their misery, and only defending them from those templars who clearly wanted to kill just for the sake of it. And having a very ambivalent relationship with Anders that only got more strained and mutually suspicious throughout the years.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 18, 2019 13:32:40 GMT
If you managed the rivalry as a pro-Templar, probably Hawke has to hurt Fenris really or become pro-slavery. I can't imagine. Yeah, no kidding.
I wasn't "pro-templar", I was anti-unstable-and-poorly-trained-mages-walking-the-streets-without-supervision.
And yes, friendship would have been easier, but it's hard to know that for certain in advance without having played the game more than once or twice, and as you say the rivalry romance was supposed to be full of lovely sparky dialogue. After I realized that I'd have to support slavery and kick him while he was down to otherwise get the romance going, I abandoned the whole project and moved on to a "mutually good influences" friends-with-benefits relationship with Isabella that had developed naturally in the meantime.
In my headcanon, Hawke was nursing a crush on Fenris for her first few years in Kirkwall, and grew out of it when it became obvious that he was still too damaged for any normal relationship. But I'm still annoyed. Also because I'd have liked to be harder on mages in the beginning of the game without having to keep rivalry points in mind. My original idea was for Hawke to be fiercely defensive of Bethany, but otherwise hold every other mage to her father's high standard of sense, honor and self-control, and not trusting them to walk the street if they didn't demonstrate that.
Aside from occasionally sounding slightly more mage-freedomy than I'd have liked, that part went okay though. Encouraging apostates to go back to the circle or at least seek the guidance of older and wiser mages, putting the ones beyond sanity out of their misery, and only defending them from those templars who clearly wanted to kill just for the sake of it. And having a very ambivalent relationship with Anders that only got more strained and mutually suspicious throughout the years. This is a pro-Templar standpoint. Perhaps, "soft" but still. And this was I said: if Hawke's not absolutely pro-freedom, s/he needs to be pro-slavery, and/or too rude with Fenris for the rivalry. I found the rivalry path acceptable because my Hawke was understanding as a pro-freedom person. He was not able to accept any slavery/captivity/persecution for what someone born. And this standpoint makes Hawke protective toward the mages, and toward Fenris as well, and makes their love relationship believable at the finish, despite it (perhaps) started as a rivalry (and this pro-freedom standpoint makes the friendship between them believable as well – to me, ofc.). Hawke makes it clear to him: s/he doesn't have compromise about his freedom as well. This is the base of their love relationship (even in rivalry), with a pro freedom Hawke, and this is the base of Fenris' respect.
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Post by Iddy on Feb 18, 2019 13:56:17 GMT
If you managed the rivalry as a pro-Templar, probably Hawke has to hurt Fenris really or become pro-slavery. I can't imagine. Yeah, no kidding. I wasn't "pro-templar", I was anti-unstable-and-poorly-trained-mages-walking-the-streets-without-supervision. And yes, friendship would have been easier, but it's hard to know that for certain in advance without having played the game more than once or twice, and as you say the rivalry romance was supposed to be full of lovely sparky dialogue. After I realized that I'd have to support slavery and kick him while he was down to otherwise get the romance going, I abandoned the whole project and moved on to a "mutually good influences" friends-with-benefits relationship with Isabella that had developed naturally in the meantime. In my headcanon, Hawke was nursing a crush on Fenris for her first few years in Kirkwall, and grew out of it when it became obvious that he was still too damaged for any normal relationship. But I'm still annoyed. Also because I'd have liked to be harder on mages in the beginning of the game without having to keep rivalry points in mind. My original idea was for Hawke to be fiercely defensive of Bethany, but otherwise hold every other mage to her father's high standard of sense, honor and self-control, and not trusting them to walk the street if they didn't demonstrate that. Aside from occasionally sounding slightly more mage-freedomy than I'd have liked, that part went okay though. Encouraging apostates to go back to the circle or at least seek the guidance of older and wiser mages, putting the ones beyond sanity out of their misery, and only defending them from those templars who clearly wanted to kill just for the sake of it. And having a very ambivalent relationship with Anders that only got more strained and mutually suspicious throughout the years. Really? I didn't know it's supposed to be hard. I got full rivalry with Fenris without ever picking a single pro-slavery line or being cruel to him. It took longer than all other companions, but I got there. Sometimes there is neutral dialogue that doesn't give either friendship or rivalry points, so that helps avoid unsavory dialogue. Remember to give him all gifts available. And be sure to always check the wiki before doing a quest so that you won't miss any opportunities.
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Post by Iddy on Feb 18, 2019 13:57:14 GMT
Yeah, no kidding.
I wasn't "pro-templar", I was anti-unstable-and-poorly-trained-mages-walking-the-streets-without-supervision.
And yes, friendship would have been easier, but it's hard to know that for certain in advance without having played the game more than once or twice, and as you say the rivalry romance was supposed to be full of lovely sparky dialogue. After I realized that I'd have to support slavery and kick him while he was down to otherwise get the romance going, I abandoned the whole project and moved on to a "mutually good influences" friends-with-benefits relationship with Isabella that had developed naturally in the meantime.
In my headcanon, Hawke was nursing a crush on Fenris for her first few years in Kirkwall, and grew out of it when it became obvious that he was still too damaged for any normal relationship. But I'm still annoyed. Also because I'd have liked to be harder on mages in the beginning of the game without having to keep rivalry points in mind. My original idea was for Hawke to be fiercely defensive of Bethany, but otherwise hold every other mage to her father's high standard of sense, honor and self-control, and not trusting them to walk the street if they didn't demonstrate that.
Aside from occasionally sounding slightly more mage-freedomy than I'd have liked, that part went okay though. Encouraging apostates to go back to the circle or at least seek the guidance of older and wiser mages, putting the ones beyond sanity out of their misery, and only defending them from those templars who clearly wanted to kill just for the sake of it. And having a very ambivalent relationship with Anders that only got more strained and mutually suspicious throughout the years. if Hawke's not absolutely pro-freedom, s/he needs to be pro-slavery, and/or too rude with Fenris for the rivalry. Absolutely wrong.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 18, 2019 14:02:51 GMT
if Hawke's not absolutely pro-freedom, s/he needs to be pro-slavery, and/or too rude with Fenris for the rivalry. Absolutely wrong. Then how Hawke able to gain rivalry points? I found harder to be full rival with him than full friend, even with a no-compromise pro-freedom mage... and if hawke supports the Templars, I suppose it's impossibile, if doesn't be rude or support the slavery (for example uses Orana as a slave).
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Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 18, 2019 14:04:21 GMT
This is a pro-Templar standpoint. Perhaps, "soft" but still. And this was I said: if Hawke's not absolutely pro-freedom, s/he needs to be pro-slavery, and/or too rude with Fenris for the rivalry. I found the rivalry path acceptable because my Hawke was understanding as a pro-freedom person. He was not able to accept any slavery/captivity/persecution for what someone born. And this standpoint makes Hawke protective toward the mages, and toward Fenris as well, and makes their love relationship believable at the finish, despite it (perhaps) started as a rivalry (and this pro-freedom standpoint makes the friendship between them believable as well – to me, ofc.). Hawke makes it clear to him: s/he doesn't have compromise about his freedom as well. This is the base of their love relationship (even in rivalry), with a pro freedom Hawke, and this is the base of Fenris' respect. I like to play marginally more grounded characters than that, so thank you, but your personal us vs. them reductionist terminology doesn't apply in my playthroughs. And I don't know what to tell you. I can't retroactively play the game with knowledge I didn't have about how it worked. And I'm okay with how it all turned out.
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Post by Iddy on Feb 18, 2019 14:09:46 GMT
Then how Hawke able to gain rivalry points? I found harder to be full rival with him than full friend, even with a no-compromise pro-freedom mage... and if hawke supports the Templars, I suppose it's impossibile, if doesn't be rude or support the slavery (for example uses Orana as a slave). To me, it was enough to take Fenris to mage quests, give him gifts to boost rivalry points and tell him to spare his sister. You also get a lot just from arguing that magic isn't evil or that it isn't the problem. Without being cruel or supporting slavery, I maxed rivalry near the end of Act 3. You might find it surprising, but sometimes it is the nice dialogue that gets rivalry with him. I remember that it happened when I picked the diplomatic dialogue that tells him to let go of revenge after the A Bitter Pill quest.
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Noxluxe
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Noxluxe
1,979
Jul 21, 2018 23:55:09 GMT
July 2018
noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 18, 2019 14:10:48 GMT
Really? I didn't know it's supposed to be hard. I got full rivalry with Fenris without ever picking a single pro-slavery line or being cruel to him. It took longer than all other companions, but I got there. Sometimes there is neutral dialogue that doesn't give either friendship or rivalry points, so that helps avoid unsavory dialogue. Remember to give him all gifts available. And be sure to always check the wiki before doing a quest so that you won't miss any opportunities. Yeah, that's rather more paper- and legwork than I'm interested in doing in my spare time to make a minor plot in a video game work out to my satisfaction. But it's nice to know for future playthroughs.
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inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 18, 2024 19:20:39 GMT
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Feb 18, 2019 14:15:56 GMT
This is a pro-Templar standpoint. Perhaps, "soft" but still. And this was I said: if Hawke's not absolutely pro-freedom, s/he needs to be pro-slavery, and/or too rude with Fenris for the rivalry. I found the rivalry path acceptable because my Hawke was understanding as a pro-freedom person. He was not able to accept any slavery/captivity/persecution for what someone born. And this standpoint makes Hawke protective toward the mages, and toward Fenris as well, and makes their love relationship believable at the finish, despite it (perhaps) started as a rivalry (and this pro-freedom standpoint makes the friendship between them believable as well – to me, ofc.). Hawke makes it clear to him: s/he doesn't have compromise about his freedom as well. This is the base of their love relationship (even in rivalry), with a pro freedom Hawke, and this is the base of Fenris' respect. I like to play marginally more grounded characters than that, so thank you, but your personal us vs. them reductionist terminology doesn't apply in my playthroughs. And I don't know what to tell you. I can't retroactively play the game with knowledge I didn't have about how it worked. And I'm okay with how it all turned out. Having a strong position doesn't mean the character isn't grounded. (Anders' character for example well grounded). Sometimes the "neutrality" doesn't work or supports the stronger side, usually the oppressor's side, the oppression. In Kirkwall the Templars, in Tevinter slavery. To be opportunists is an absolutely believable position, but not more, than someone who can't be an opportunist. Your characters have their reason, just like my characters. Both can be well grounded, not simple.
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