Noxluxe
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 27, 2019 14:20:12 GMT
It does, in fact. Media of all forms shapes people's perceptions, and therefore the world I live in. People like to pretend it doesn't ("next thing he'll say is video games cause violence! lolololololol"), but we all know it does. If I feel a piece of media is provoking/encouraging fear or hatred of minority groups, well, as an LGBTQ person, and an individual with a less visible disability, I have reason to be concerned. It is making the world a more dangerous place for me. The effect is not immediate, nor obvious. It aggregates until it cannot be ignored. I have my preference, yes. but to categorise my opinions as some sort of "demand", in order to make me seem aggressive and irrational is pretty shitty. I'm not making any demands. I am describing what I perceive as an inevitability; BioWare is eventually going to have to re-evaluate the way it tells its stories if it wants to hang on to its minority fanbase. Then you've clearly lost all perspective. Bioware overwhelmingly portrays minority groups as sympathetic and needing protection from oppressors, even completely unrealistically so. And their influence has been part of and encouraged a trend exactly opposite to what you're describing, which is the reason you can sit here and imagine yourself perfectly in the right just for biting the heads off anyone who's concerned what the little guy might do with his power too. And this influence aggregating until it cannot be ignored is exactly what you're seeing here, with people pushing back against your entitled attempt to impose a very narrow and narrow-minded view of the world on everyone else, even out of paranoid fear that we'll all turn on you and persecute you for your sexuality if we aren't taught to worship you and your tiny and vaguely defined but exceedingly loud following. Irrational and aggressive? Perish the thought. Framing your "preferences" by calling everyone bigots for not giving you whatever you want out of hand, even at enormous potential expense to themselves, is exactly how I was taught to say please and thank you as well.
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Post by The Elder King on Mar 27, 2019 15:31:03 GMT
One thing that I agree with pessimistpanda is that Bioware finds itself, at fault or not is irrelevant, in a middle of criticism on the social issues between opposite sides. Criticism on the LGBT content in the games have been criticized for different reason by people with different beliefs. What I don’t understand, howewer, is the connection between the LGBT rapresentation and the overall dark fantasy aspect of the setting and the evil/dark options in terms of dialogues and choices the games provided. They seem kind of a different situation to me. While I do believe some of the criticism on LGBT content is fair, I don’t recall many moments where the games show discriminatory comments towards LGBT people. One that comes to mind is Gamlen, but he’s actually shown to be quite a negative character, and not one portrayed in a positive light. They even clarify the Qun’s stance on transsexual male and female to be quite open minded. Racism and bigotry is far, far more present on other races, mages, and probably people from different countries (as Orlesians on Ferelden). I stand corrected if I’m forgetting a huge chunk of discriminatory content towards the LGBT community. Also, while Bioware is not perfect in how they handle the portrayals of LGBT people, but the fanbase is not the united on the criticism, showing something opposite stances. Putting aside the reasons that lead some to dislike Sera as a character, I do recall that different people criticized her because her sexuality is treated as an afterthought without some important dialogues or content about it, while others criticized Dorian’s quest as having it centered only on his sexuality and the problems with his father (and I’m not referring to those that criticized the quest not having gameplay content). While some of the criticism might’ve come from people outside the community, I distinctly recall reading negative comments about those by members of the community. I’d also remind that Bioware’s writers aren’t perfect, and they made mistakes in the writing department many times, so it’s normal that it’s bound to happen on LGBT content as well. I do think they’re trying to get better, and at least in the romance department the change from DAO to DAI can’t be anything that positive in terms of choices. In regards of the part I didn’t understand, once again, on the connection between LGBT rapresentation and the elven/mages plots and all the actors involved, I do understand that the latter can be rapresentation of the minority/ethnic discrimination in real life, I don’t see the connection with the former, unless in a really stretchy way with mages...but it seems a bit far-fetched to me, personally. I can understand why the choices to support certain groups might be for some a rapresentation of their own stances in real life, on both sides, but I don’t think that mean that Bioware is supporting, even if not consciously, oppression and bigotry. It’s a dark fantasy RPG, and the latter generally mean giving players various options in terms of what sides, groups and stances to support in game. And despite what many think, the series remain a dark fantasy RPG. The fact that they chose to portray every group, country, race and organizations with flaws doesnt mean that they encourage people with racist, bigot beliefs. And it doesn’t mean that they can’t be inclusive for minority and LGBT communities. But their support of those doesn’t mean that they have to write a setting that is necessarily privy of issues and options to side with different groups and sides, or that if they do this they have to cut every LGBT content or not being inclusive.
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Noxluxe
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 27, 2019 17:01:36 GMT
]it seems that way don't it? personally it feels as if the initial question of the thread has been lost for the last couple pages anyway
I don't know. Technically it's still relevant to the subject line? But yeah, everything sensible that's going to be said probably already has. I'm sorry about my part in these entrenched arguments. It's hard to not try to reach people who seem completely irrationally dismissive of what they don't agree with. And I know I fall into that category too on occasion. When we're not getting too bitterly into disputes it really is nice to chat here though, and talk intricately about all this cool stuff. Every time I come back to Dragon Age I'm amazed at the potential for discussion and immersion and headcanon. I don't think I know of a fandom that lends itself better to those things. Really hope 4 doesn't move away from that. Although I'm also just about ready for Bioware to shake their narratives up. I think I've joined quite enough short-handed super-special agencies and orders trying to save the world by this point. I really, really wouldn't mind for 4 to lean a bit back in the direction of DA2, with more focus on working class adventuring and people just trying to get by in the setting, and gradually shifting towards dealing with Solas' antics as they become locally relevant rather than making the entire game about stopping him.
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LadyofNemesis
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Mar 27, 2019 18:11:44 GMT
I don't know. Technically it's still relevant to the subject line? But yeah, everything sensible that's going to be said probably already has. I'm sorry about my part in these entrenched arguments. It's hard to not try to reach people who seem completely irrationally dismissive of what they don't agree with. And I know I fall into that category too on occasion. When we're not getting too bitterly into disputes it really is nice to chat here though, and talk intricately about all this cool stuff. Every time I come back to Dragon Age I'm amazed at the potential for discussion and immersion and headcanon. I don't think I know of a fandom that lends itself better to those things. Really hope 4 doesn't move away from that. Although I'm also just about ready for Bioware to shake their narratives up. I think I've joined quite enough short-handed super-special agencies and orders trying to save the world by this point. I really, really wouldn't mind for 4 to lean a bit back in the direction of DA2, with more focus on working class adventuring and people just trying to get by in the setting, and gradually shifting towards dealing with Solas' antics as they become locally relevant rather than making the entire game about stopping him. it was interesting to read, no question about it...but the way things were headed, the mods would've closed the thread by some point no?
I myself can also get quite heated when talking about certain subjects, but I've learned (and sometimes still learn) when I'm talking against a brick wall that won't budge sometime you just got to shrug and shake your head, I found a 'he's right you know' meme earlier today, was thinking about posting it here but decided against it for fear it'd fan even more flames
I hope that the next Dragon Age gives us choices that make us wonder if we made the right decision, then feel as a lump grows in your throat when it turns out you screwed up
for example, the first time I played Inquisition I made Celene, Gaspard and Briala work together, simply because it was said that choice was the hardest to get -and I assumed because of this it was also the best choice- turns out from the epilogue that is actually the worst choice you can have for Orlais (because they end up going back to fighting one another once the Breach is closed) same with choosing a ruler for Ferelden in Origins, sure you can make your Warden rule together with Alistair or Anora, but as it turns out from dialogue and codex entries, it's actually a bad choice (the rule of Anora/Alistair alone or with the Warden is plagued with trouble)
safe Connor from his demon? He becomes a paranoid mess who views himself as a monster
I always spare the Architect, but after reading the books I pondered about whether or not to do so, in-game it is so far not presented as a bad choice maybe that'll change for the next game *shrugs* who knows, that's what makes it interesting
with each game I adjust my canon world state to align with what I believe is the right thing to do, even if some of those choices are considered bad in-game
we've chosen kings and queens, rulers for major religious institutions, shifted the balance of the world itself and not to mention solved every squabble we came across, helping our companions heal themselves and move on from their past
at any rate, I can't wait to see where it heads next
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Mar 27, 2019 18:42:13 GMT
]it seems that way don't it? personally it feels as if the initial question of the thread has been lost for the last couple pages anyway
I don't know. Technically it's still relevant to the subject line? But yeah, everything sensible that's going to be said probably already has. I'm sorry about my part in these entrenched arguments. It's hard to not try to reach people who seem completely irrationally dismissive of what they don't agree with. And I know I fall into that category too on occasion. When we're not getting too bitterly into disputes it really is nice to chat here though, and talk intricately about all this cool stuff. Every time I come back to Dragon Age I'm amazed at the potential for discussion and immersion and headcanon. I don't think I know of a fandom that lends itself better to those things. Really hope 4 doesn't move away from that. Although I'm also just about ready for Bioware to shake their narratives up. I think I've joined quite enough short-handed super-special agencies and orders trying to save the world by this point. I really, really wouldn't mind for 4 to lean a bit back in the direction of DA2, with more focus on working class adventuring and people just trying to get by in the setting, and gradually shifting towards dealing with Solas' antics as they become locally relevant rather than making the entire game about stopping him. Eh, the problem with reaching irrational and dismissive people is they're irrational and dismissive And being protected by higher-ups only emboldens them. As for a more DA2-like game, Dragon Age 2 had a good concept. But its execution was sorely lacking. Maybe due to lack of time or resources. One could hope they'll try it again someday. But the stinger of Tresspasser pretty much guarantees the Inquisition will be lurking about in some fashion in DA4.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 27, 2019 18:46:40 GMT
same with choosing a ruler for Ferelden in Origins, sure you can make your Warden rule together with Alistair or Anora, but as it turns out from dialogue and codex entries, it's actually a bad choice (the rule of Anora/Alistair alone or with the Warden is plagued with trouble) Really? I recall my playthrough where my Warden married Anora talking about how it seemed it would herald a new golden age for Ferelden.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 27, 2019 18:47:51 GMT
I don't know. Technically it's still relevant to the subject line? But yeah, everything sensible that's going to be said probably already has. I'm sorry about my part in these entrenched arguments. It's hard to not try to reach people who seem completely irrationally dismissive of what they don't agree with. And I know I fall into that category too on occasion. When we're not getting too bitterly into disputes it really is nice to chat here though, and talk intricately about all this cool stuff. Every time I come back to Dragon Age I'm amazed at the potential for discussion and immersion and headcanon. I don't think I know of a fandom that lends itself better to those things. Really hope 4 doesn't move away from that. Although I'm also just about ready for Bioware to shake their narratives up. I think I've joined quite enough short-handed super-special agencies and orders trying to save the world by this point. I really, really wouldn't mind for 4 to lean a bit back in the direction of DA2, with more focus on working class adventuring and people just trying to get by in the setting, and gradually shifting towards dealing with Solas' antics as they become locally relevant rather than making the entire game about stopping him. Eh, the problem with reaching irrational and dismissive people is they're irrational and dismissive And being protected by higher-ups only emboldens them. As for a more DA2-like game, Dragon Age 2 had a good concept. But its execution was sorely lacking. Maybe due to lack of time or resources. One could hope they'll try it again someday. But the stinger of Tresspasser pretty much guarantees the Inquisition will be lurking about in some fashion in DA4. I don't see how the Inquisiton's existence presupposes that DA 4 can't be like 2. I mean hell 2 already had a powerful Chantry and intact Templar Order.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 27, 2019 19:03:54 GMT
Eh, the problem with reaching irrational and dismissive people is they're irrational and dismissive And being protected by higher-ups only emboldens them. As for a more DA2-like game, Dragon Age 2 had a good concept. But its execution was sorely lacking. Maybe due to lack of time or resources. One could hope they'll try it again someday. But the stinger of Tresspasser pretty much guarantees the Inquisition will be lurking about in some fashion in DA4. I don't see how the Inquisiton's existence presupposes that DA 4 can't be like 2. I mean hell 2 already had a powerful Chantry and intact Templar Order. True. But Hawke was not a member of either. DAI implies that they will be recruiting "someone he (Solas) doesn't know" to take the lead in foiling his plans. This strongly implies that the new protagonist will be allied with the Inquisition in a way Hawke never was with the Chantry. Second, the stakes are going to be much higher. In DA2, Hawke's focus was in holding Kirkwall together. At least up until the very end. Now Solas is planning to bring down the Veil, which threatens all of Thedas, and perhaps the lands beyond. This is a threat that is arguably bigger than a Blight! Whoever the new protagonist may be might have their hometown or family as a primary focus, but the ultimate stakes will be much much higher.
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Noxluxe
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noxluxe
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 27, 2019 19:07:43 GMT
As for a more DA2-like game, Dragon Age 2 had a good concept. But its execution was sorely lacking. Maybe due to lack of time or resources. One could hope they'll try it again someday. But the stinger of Tresspasser pretty much guarantees the Inquisition will be lurking about in some fashion in DA4. Oh, no question there. I was hugely disappointed with the game when it first came out, and have skipped it for most of my playthroughs through the years. It wasn't until a few years ago that the themes and concept started appealing to me enough to outweigh the gameplay, and allow me to actually enjoy it. After spending the last few weeks dragging my ass all over Southern Thedas finding collectibles and closing holes in the world with that insane nigh-apocalypse pressure in Inquisition though, I'm feeling a bit fatigued with the pace of it. What happened to sitting around everyone's favorite tavern with the party after a day out and about in the town doing odd jobs, collecting silver and sovereigns(not "gold", but sovereigns) for a big investment to secure your own future?
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Post by colfoley on Mar 27, 2019 19:12:03 GMT
I don't see how the Inquisiton's existence presupposes that DA 4 can't be like 2. I mean hell 2 already had a powerful Chantry and intact Templar Order. True. But Hawke was not a member of either. DAI implies that they will be recruiting "someone he (Solas) doesn't know" to take the lead in foiling his plans. This strongly implies that the new protagonist will be allied with the Inquisition in a way Hawke never was with the Chantry. Second, the stakes are going to be much higher. In DA2, Hawke's focus was in holding Kirkwall together. At least up until the very end. Now Solas is planning to bring down the Veil, which threatens all of Thedas, and perhaps the lands beyond. This is a threat that is arguably bigger than a Blight! Whoever the new protagonist may be might have their hometown or family as a primary focus, but the ultimate stakes will be much much higher. All Tresspasser promised is they'd find someone not that that someone would join up. Ideally for me the new protagonist would be someone who, while they may work with agents of the Inquisition like Dorian or Harding or the inquisitor themselves they can be very reluctant about it and may see the Inquisition as much of a threat as Solas or the Qunari. That is certainly true. However as you point out they can still try and have large stakes with a focused story. Odyssey the story focuses on your family dynamic but you still have to bring down the world spanning cult of kosmos. DA 2 itself while Hawke didn't have to deal with a lot of it in that game it was clear that her struggles in Kirkwall were microchasms for what was happening elsewhere.
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LadyofNemesis
N5
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Mar 27, 2019 19:23:38 GMT
same with choosing a ruler for Ferelden in Origins, sure you can make your Warden rule together with Alistair or Anora, but as it turns out from dialogue and codex entries, it's actually a bad choice (the rule of Anora/Alistair alone or with the Warden is plagued with trouble) Really? I recall my playthrough where my Warden married Anora talking about how it seemed it would herald a new golden age for Ferelden. true, but in later codex entries it's mentioned there's trouble afoot
it mostly mentions how her support of the mages (and them taking over Redcliffe and taking the help from Alexius) made many nobles angry with her there's also concern about the fact she has not produced an heir yet despite ten year of marriage
the main thing for him is that the people of Ferelden believe his rule is a lie imposed upon the people of Ferelden by the Wardens and (with extend) Arl Eamon because many nobles believe the Theirin line died with Cailan and that Alistair is a fraud
(the same is written if he rules with the Warden)
however if the pair rules together Alistair's codex mentions the Ferelden people have greatly prospered under their rule despite the fact the Blight has weakened their land
--
I'm not saying that having Anora/Alistair+Warden is a bad choice (it's one of my favorite choices, and I've made my Warden a queen on several playthroughs) just saying that sometimes the choices that seem great, turn out to backfire on us players
(like my other example where I thought having the truce in Orlais was the best choice (still going to do that for my canon world state though, because f*ck Orlais! ) which I think is quite interesting and gives for much replayability
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Mar 27, 2019 19:26:16 GMT
True. But Hawke was not a member of either. DAI implies that they will be recruiting "someone he (Solas) doesn't know" to take the lead in foiling his plans. This strongly implies that the new protagonist will be allied with the Inquisition in a way Hawke never was with the Chantry. Second, the stakes are going to be much higher. In DA2, Hawke's focus was in holding Kirkwall together. At least up until the very end. Now Solas is planning to bring down the Veil, which threatens all of Thedas, and perhaps the lands beyond. This is a threat that is arguably bigger than a Blight! Whoever the new protagonist may be might have their hometown or family as a primary focus, but the ultimate stakes will be much much higher. All Tresspasser promised is they'd find someone not that that someone would join up. Ideally for me the new protagonist would be someone who, while they may work with agents of the Inquisition like Dorian or Harding or the inquisitor themselves they can be very reluctant about it and may see the Inquisition as much of a threat as Solas or the Qunari. That is certainly true. However as you point out they can still try and have large stakes with a focused story. Odyssey the story focuses on your family dynamic but you still have to bring down the world spanning cult of kosmos. DA 2 itself while Hawke didn't have to deal with a lot of it in that game it was clear that her struggles in Kirkwall were microchasms for what was happening elsewhere. That sounds more like ME2 than DA2 As for he second part, well, we'll just have to see. I haven't seen Bioware do a halfway decent family dynamic since, well, BG2...
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 27, 2019 19:27:08 GMT
Really? I recall my playthrough where my Warden married Anora talking about how it seemed it would herald a new golden age for Ferelden. true, but in later codex entries it's mentioned there's trouble afoot
it's mostly mentions how her support of the mages (and them taking over Redcliffe and taking the help from Alexius) made many nobles angry with her there's also concern about the fact she has not produced an heir yet despite ten year of marriage
the main thing for him is that the people of Ferelden believe his rule is a lie imposed upon the people of Ferelden by the Wardens and (with extend) Arl Eamon because many nobles believe the Theirin line died with Cailan and that Alistair is a fraud
(the same is written if he rules with the Warden)
however if the pair rules together Alistair's codex mentions the Ferelden people have greatly prospered under their rule despite the fact the Blight has weakened their land
--
I'm not saying that having Anora/Alistair+Warden is a bad choice (it's one of my favorite choices, and I've made my Warden a queen on several playthroughs) just saying that sometimes the choices that seem great, turn out to backfire on us players
(like my other example where I thought having the truce in Orlais was the best choice (still going to do that for my canon world state though, because f*ck Orlais! ) which I think is quite interesting and gives for much replayability I wouldn’t really call the Anora one a backfire though, since it is only some nobles being pissy but from everything we’ve seen there are always some nobles like that.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 27, 2019 19:28:09 GMT
All Tresspasser promised is they'd find someone not that that someone would join up. Ideally for me the new protagonist would be someone who, while they may work with agents of the Inquisition like Dorian or Harding or the inquisitor themselves they can be very reluctant about it and may see the Inquisition as much of a threat as Solas or the Qunari. That is certainly true. However as you point out they can still try and have large stakes with a focused story. Odyssey the story focuses on your family dynamic but you still have to bring down the world spanning cult of kosmos. DA 2 itself while Hawke didn't have to deal with a lot of it in that game it was clear that her struggles in Kirkwall were microchasms for what was happening elsewhere. That sounds more like ME2 than DA2 As for he second part, well, we'll just have to see. I haven't seen Bioware do a halfway decent famaily dynamic since, well, BG2... The less we know about the protagonist’s family or backstory the better.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 27, 2019 19:34:11 GMT
That sounds more like ME2 than DA2 As for he second part, well, we'll just have to see. I haven't seen Bioware do a halfway decent famaily dynamic since, well, BG2... The less we know about the protagonist’s family or backstory the better. now this i vehemently disagree with. Not so much the backstory per se but family can be a powerful, personal motivator. So much so that pretty much all my Inquisitor's issues flowed from family.
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Iakus
N7
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Post by Iakus on Mar 27, 2019 19:35:43 GMT
That sounds more like ME2 than DA2 As for he second part, well, we'll just have to see. I haven't seen Bioware do a halfway decent famaily dynamic since, well, BG2... The less we know about the protagonist’s family or backstory the better. Yes and no. I prefer to say the more we can DEFINE the protagonist's backstory the better. I'd rather not have a predetermined relationship with any family members brought in, but I'd like to say for myself if it's loving, strained, distant, etc.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 27, 2019 19:40:39 GMT
The less we know about the protagonist’s family or backstory the better. now this i vehemently disagree with. Not so much the backstory per se but family can be a powerful, personal motivator. So much so that pretty much all my Inquisitor's issues flowed from family. And that’s fine for a predefined character but not a RPG character. Since they are the player’s avatar, it should be up to the player to determine the character’s motivations rather than having some forced onto them.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 27, 2019 19:42:27 GMT
The less we know about the protagonist’s family or backstory the better. Yes and no. I prefer to say the more we can DEFINE the protagonist's backstory the better. I'd rather not have a predetermined relationship with any family members brought in, but I'd like to say for myself if it's loving, strained, distant, etc. Fair enough. If we have to have family then yes the relationship needs to be either vague or open to being defined by the player. It’s why I like what DAI did with that over DAO or DA2.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 27, 2019 19:52:40 GMT
now this i vehemently disagree with. Not so much the backstory per se but family can be a powerful, personal motivator. So much so that pretty much all my Inquisitor's issues flowed from family. And that’s fine for a predefined character but not a RPG character. Since they are the player’s avatar, it should be up to the player to determine the character’s motivations rather than having some forced onto them. sure. As long as we can define and influence that relationship and decide what our motivations, which happens, then it should be ok.
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Post by Ieldra on Mar 27, 2019 20:01:37 GMT
Incompatible within one mind, perhaps - and even that's debatable since you can be tolerant on one axis and intolerant on another - but games aren't made for one mind. They're made to appeal to millions of people who all have different preferences in the kind of characters they'd like to express.
You're basically asking for games to target only people with certain often-grouped mindsets as defined by you. You are imposing an "us vs. them" stance on people who play Bioware's games, according to how you alone view the demographics.
Finally, perhaps a reminder is in order that tolerance is a virtue applicable specifically to people whose attitudes you don't like. If you like someone else's attitude, there is no problem in the first place. The question of how far you're willing to extend your tolerance only applies if there is disagreement, and right here and how, tolerance is exactly what you do *not* show. You do not just demand that you can express yourself in a game in ways you prefer, you also demand that other people with whom you disagree can't. You demand that the complete fictional world vindicates your view. I consider such demands utterly illegitimate.
Edit: While I'm at it, certain things people do are not my business and have zero impact on my life, so why should I care about how they do these things? Tolerance, in cases like this, should be easy to come by, don't you think? So why do *you* care about how other players like to express themselves in games? It's not like it has any impact on your life, is it?
It does, in fact. Media of all forms shapes people's perceptions, and therefore the world I live in. People like to pretend it doesn't ("next thing he'll say is video games cause violence! lolololololol"), but we all know it does. If I feel a piece of media is provoking/encouraging fear or hatred of minority groups, well, as an LGBTQ person, and an individual with a less visible disability, I have reason to be concerned. It is making the world a more dangerous place for me. The effect is not immediate, nor obvious. It aggregates until it cannot be ignored. Yes, the stories we read or watch and the games we play have the potential to change us. However, your claim assumes a rather simplistic relationship between media and consumer. Let's start with the fact that there is a difference between games that promote hateful behaviour and games that simply allow it. The former, while they do exist, are comparably rare, and should you accuse Bioware of that (which I'm not sure you do) I would think you're not seeing things clearly. Meanwhile, the latter kind of games lets you explore behaviour you'd never be able to express IRL without serious repercussions. I find that a fundamentally desirable option since in principle, since these things are a part of human nature, which means they're also a part of you and me. In the worst case, they let you express the hate you already have, and I'd say better in a game than IRL, and in the best case, it makes us learn about ourselves. In short, I think any claims that simply allowing hateful behaviour in a game has an aggregate affect on players' RL "hatefulness" are bogus, and psychological studies, while being not completely conclusive, mostly support this. Things only change if such behaviour is actually encouraged, for instance by elements of the game world egging you on, or getting rewards in terms of game mechanics. Even then, observable effects have only been shown after excessive consumption.
Second point: I think we're drawn to the themes that interest us, and the good and evil related to them, rather than being "seduced" by anything we might find. I observe this in my own behaviour. I wouldn't be interested in exploring the kind of hateful behaviour you would be concerned about, since that topic is completely irrelevant to me. Love as you want and that's that, as long as you leave me out of it, and anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot. Nothing to talk about here. I do, however, have a rather controversial, and somewhat radical, stance on bioethics, and certain related topics are important to me, and so I tend to explore that in games where it can be explored in all its complexity. There, I would hate being restricted to that which is regarded as good by the majority of my culture because I do not agree with that position. I'd rather not play a game at all, since that would be less annoying than being restricted to a specific set of behaviour I dislike. So, in general I think players are unlikely to express hateful behaviour in games unless they're already predisposed to it. What you do in games, as a rule, is an *expression* of yourself or some aspect of yourself, unless you play for the lulz with no thought going into it.
Third point: the presentation of "bad stuff" in a game and its use by the player does, as a rule, not imply approval of any bad behaviour expressed by any character, or even the player. Most of the time, it's just a way to tell you the world has its downsides, and if unpleasant cultural attitudes exist in the fictional world, well, you might want your character to have some of them for no other reason that you want them to be typical of the world. For instance, if you know my most relevant posts on the topic you know that I'm radically pro-mage in the DA mage vs. templars controversy. Nonetheless, one of my DAO Wardens started out a devout Andrastian with typical attitudes towards magic, just to see where that would take me. Well, I couldn't keep it up so some way down the road to the archdemon, he had a crisis of faith (Morrigan helped with that, and it was an ongoing process rather than some point where things switched) and ended up less typical, but it was one of the more interesting character journeys I made, especially given that I didn't have any plans to take this character anywhere specific when I started him.
Beyond that, what concerns me is the authenticity of the fictional world. I believe human groupishness is a human constant, and that there will always be people who hate others based on some irrelevant distinction. It's not something I approve of, in fact, as a radical individualist and anti-identitarian I can't but think it's completely crazy. However, a world without it would feel inauthentic, populated by characters who are ultimately not human. As long as it is implicitly implied that characters in a story are as human as we are, I expect to see such things. It's possible to conceive of a fictional world where that's not the case, but that change in human nature and how it might have come to pass would have to be a major theme in order to be believable. Such stories have been written, but they're usually not mainstream material (example: Octavia Butler's Xenogenesis trilogy).
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by wright1978 on Mar 27, 2019 20:36:01 GMT
I don't know. Technically it's still relevant to the subject line? But yeah, everything sensible that's going to be said probably already has. I'm sorry about my part in these entrenched arguments. It's hard to not try to reach people who seem completely irrationally dismissive of what they don't agree with. And I know I fall into that category too on occasion. When we're not getting too bitterly into disputes it really is nice to chat here though, and talk intricately about all this cool stuff. Every time I come back to Dragon Age I'm amazed at the potential for discussion and immersion and headcanon. I don't think I know of a fandom that lends itself better to those things. Really hope 4 doesn't move away from that. Although I'm also just about ready for Bioware to shake their narratives up. I think I've joined quite enough short-handed super-special agencies and orders trying to save the world by this point. I really, really wouldn't mind for 4 to lean a bit back in the direction of DA2, with more focus on working class adventuring and people just trying to get by in the setting, and gradually shifting towards dealing with Solas' antics as they become locally relevant rather than making the entire game about stopping him. Eh, the problem with reaching irrational and dismissive people is they're irrational and dismissive And being protected by higher-ups only emboldens them. As for a more DA2-like game, Dragon Age 2 had a good concept. But its execution was sorely lacking. Maybe due to lack of time or resources. One could hope they'll try it again someday. But the stinger of Tresspasser pretty much guarantees the Inquisition will be lurking about in some fashion in DA4. I definitely hope for a more character focused story. DA2(despite its flaws) and Me2 are 2 of my favourite games.
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Little Bengel
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Partying like it's 1999
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Little Bengel on Mar 27, 2019 21:06:00 GMT
Eh, the problem with reaching irrational and dismissive people is they're irrational and dismissive And being protected by higher-ups only emboldens them. As for a more DA2-like game, Dragon Age 2 had a good concept. But its execution was sorely lacking. Maybe due to lack of time or resources. One could hope they'll try it again someday. But the stinger of Tresspasser pretty much guarantees the Inquisition will be lurking about in some fashion in DA4. I definitely hope for a more character focused story. DA2(despite its flaws) and Me2 are 2 of my favourite games. I could definitely go for a character-focused story with a tone like ME2's. I think it had just the right mix of seriousness and humor.
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Iakus
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on Mar 27, 2019 21:19:10 GMT
Eh, the problem with reaching irrational and dismissive people is they're irrational and dismissive And being protected by higher-ups only emboldens them. As for a more DA2-like game, Dragon Age 2 had a good concept. But its execution was sorely lacking. Maybe due to lack of time or resources. One could hope they'll try it again someday. But the stinger of Tresspasser pretty much guarantees the Inquisition will be lurking about in some fashion in DA4. I definitely hope for a more character focused story. DA2(despite its flaws) and Me2 are 2 of my favourite games. Well, with less railroading...
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LadyofNemesis
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Mar 27, 2019 21:21:52 GMT
I wouldn’t really call the Anora one a backfire though, since it is only some nobles being pissy but from everything we’ve seen there are always some nobles like that. True enough, at least Anora is better at handling Celene then Alistair is (Anora: We are not on friendly terms, for reasons I'll not disclose (I know which milady)
but I simply like leaving my Ferelden Dog Lords in good hands and apparently lore wise that means having Anora + Alistair wed...
ah speaking of nobles, it was such fun playing Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts with my Qunari mage got the -15 court approval hit, then proceeded to get it to 100 and showed those puffed up nobs what I could do (it was so satisfying)
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Mar 27, 2019 21:36:01 GMT
Some posts have been moved for veering too far into real world issues and shots taken at other users.
This thread is about the Tone of Dragon Age 4 and your hopes for it.
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