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Post by ArcadiaGrey on Mar 30, 2019 15:25:10 GMT
MODERATOR POST
An insulting comment about the fandom has been removed from an above post and those quoting it
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 30, 2019 16:03:41 GMT
...And off-handedly and explicitly assuming that everyone who associates her with a real world disorder at all is doing so, calling this forum -snip- on that basis. Yup, I got it too. I’d say he overexaggerate, and on that I agree with you. Expecially since it was clear that Hanako’s opinion was positive on the topic. Are you sure? Panda has made quite the deal of how much he enjoys calling and labeling things "accurately". I have a hard time imagining him of all people being so reckless with his language... Whatever. Playing through Here Lies The Abyss, something that really kills my immersion is Inquisition's cavalier approach to travel distances, and time in general. Along the same lines as the last few seasons of Game of Thrones. Traveling all the way to the Western Approach from Crestwood to interrupt a dark ritual makes sense, but then we let the Tevinter prick escape because of a 10-second headstart limping through the open desert. Loghain inexplicably divines where's he's going by the direction, and then we travel all the way back to Skyhold, a journey encompassing the whole of Orlais, in order to get our troops and march all the way across Orlais again to stop the Wardens from completing their imminent summoning of a demon army, a timetable no doubt sped up by our initial intervention. Right? The whole sequence just feels surreal. Why not send word for Cullen and the Inquisition forces while staying in the area and terrorizing the Wardens instead of leaving them to their rituals for weeks or months? It's like leaving Conner to get the mages all over again, except ten times more stupid and your only option. But of course, the Inquisition's reputation is in tatters for its representative being indisposed for five minutes too long during an all-night ball in Wicked Hearts. It's a natural consequence of the series refusing to treat time or distance or numbers with any specificity whatsoever, and it's a pain in the ass if you're trying to roleplay a coherent story where you need some understanding of what is actually practical and realistic or not.
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Post by Polka Dot on Mar 30, 2019 16:13:07 GMT
Kinda, yeah. While Blue can be a bit dithering in high-intensity situations and Red can be real asshole behavior when it comes to making decisions, at least both responses are usually constructive in a crisis. When people are wounded and dead and more is at stake, nobody wants someone to stand there trying to make everyone laugh. I can see how this is a bug for some people, but for me it's definitely a feature and the reason Purple!Hawke is my favourite. I've gotten so much more role-playing mileage out of them than the other two options. I mean, I do have a Red!Hawke I love very much, and I think there's some fun to be had in working out why your particular Red version is aggressive. (Not to mention who exactly that aggression is directed towards - are they always picking the last dialogue option, or are they going for Blue or Purple with certain people or at certain moments?) I also had fun with a recent Hawke who was Blue on the surface but actually had a really nasty temper if you pushed her too far. Purple, though - that's where the real fun is for me. Do they constantly crack wise to hide the fact that they're secretly a big softie, like their best friend Varric? Are the jokes covering up some kind of pain or trauma or bitterness about their situation? Are they a sociopath who says this stuff because they have no sense of empathy? Or they actually really shallow and have no idea how to react to a lot of the horrible stuff happening in Kirkwall so nonsense comes out of their mouth at the worst possible times? I've played Purple all of those ways with one character or another, and I think have at least one more wisecracking mage in me for the future.
That sounds more to me like trying to psychoanalyze a character's motives and intentions in a work of non-interactive fiction than what I would consider to be actual role-play. I'm not trying to start another one of those discussion about the real, truly true definition of role-play (they often don't end well), but I need to know my character's mind and motives well enough to know how they're going to behave and why before they act instead of trying to figure out the whys and wherefores after the fact. hm, true true *nods in agreement* I do admit I found it enjoyable...I have a love-hate relationship with the political quest lines ...I just don't really understand 'The Game', even though I was able to get the 100 court approval first time around (having those nobs be owned by anyone who isn't a human is so enjoyable) hm... now I'm getting curious as to what kind of political games lands like Nevara and Tevinter have I'm thinking...at least for Tevinter, a lot of scheming and magical displays (kinda like Orlais but with mages)
I always found the politics at least moderately interesting, but I could really do with less religion, and less southern Andrastianism in particular. DAI was hard going in that regard. Having said that, as wright1978 said, being able to act decisively against the Qun would make up for a lot. Does that have to do with your ideas about story/lore development, or personal ideology? <snip> I wish they'd do away with the three-thousand times damned paraphrasing. Gods, I hate it if I don't know my character's mind. Why the hell do I have to put up with vaguely defined terms and color codes and *another's* associations with them? Damn. It. Why do I have to be afraid of what the character *I* am playing says, rather than being able to determine what they say? So much this. If I don't know my character's mind and motives, I'm not role-playing. I'm just making some selections in some work of interactive fiction to see how it plays out. There were some occasions in DA2 where choosing the option that you hoped would give you the intended outcome would also have Hawke allude to motives and other opinions that took me completely OOC. I've always felt that Hawke was written to be an entertaining fictional character, but really sucked as an RPG PC. In fact, IIRC, DA2 was intended to "surprise and delight" audiences. I enjoy story and NPC surprises, but am not delighted when the character I'm supposed to be role-playing surprises me. Same with Merrill, you can't deny that she lacked the ambition, intelligence and technical knowledge to rebuild an Eluvian from broken shards... but that obvious doesn't excuse the monumental stupidity of messing around with an ancient magical artefact (that she doesn't even know the intended function of), in the middle of a heavily populated city, without anyone knowing what she was doing, nor any concern for her own safety or the people around her. Who even knows where the Eluvian might have connected to, had she been successful? Merrill's Eluvian might have connected to the Deep Roads, which would have explained where the Darkspawn in the Elven ruin kept coming from, as well as where Tamlen disappeared to after he touched the mirror. Imagine the chaos that would have resulted from Merrill unlocking it... only to accidentally open a door for the Darkspawn, letting them waltz right into the middle of Lowtown?
Merrill's obsession with that eluvian strikes me as a classic case of "I'm bailing out on the responsibilities I've been assigned to serve the clan as its First and eventual Keeper to instead consort with demons so I can pursue something only I know is important to our future." The hubris is palpable. (Speaking of which, that a staff awarded from the quest to obtain the Arulin'Holm for Merrill is named Hubris does not strike me as coincidence.) As for where the Eluvian led, we see that it led to the Crossroads since if repaired you can see it among them when Morrigan shows the Inquisitor. I dunno, the devs have a habit of often reusing old assets. Hawke's family crest can be seen a couple times dotted about on the walls in Future Redcliffe, yet there's no plot or lore related reason why it should have been there. Same with all the Eluvian frames that can be randomly spotted throughout Origins (Circle Tower, Soldier's Peak, Blood Mage Hideout), which could be real Eluvians or were only intended to be set dressing? Merrill's Eluvian shares the same model as the Mirror of Transfiguration in the Black Emporium and we see another mirror with that frame in Morrigan's study in the Winter Palace. I suppose it's not out of the question that the one in her study could be Merrill's mirror thoug, but as she already has an intact one at her disposal, I don't know why she'd bother with one MacGyvered together except for study? I can appreciate their reasons for re-using assets. They have an awful lot of sets to dress after all, and asset reuse can actually help worlds feel integrated and stylized. Reusing a PC's family crest prolly isn't a good idea, though, unless it's purposeful and intended to convey information. Redesigns are a whole 'nother can of worms. I'm okay with the qunari evolution - they've looked different in each game. I'm not so happy with the constant changes in elf design. These things are, of course, largely a matter of personal taste and opinion. But the darkspawn? I was utterly confused in the opening of DA2 seeing the spawn looking so different, especially in the wake of Awakening. It took me awhile to realize they'd done that mostly for aesthetics (and to change some combat behavior, particularly with the new genlock shield ramming), and not because they were trying to convey some message about what the Architect had wrought.
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Post by Ieldra on Mar 30, 2019 17:31:11 GMT
I always found the politics at least moderately interesting, but I could really do with less religion, and less southern Andrastianism in particular. DAI was hard going in that regard. Having said that, as wright1978 said, being able to act decisively against the Qun would make up for a lot. Does that have to do with your ideas about story/lore development, or personal ideology? If you refer to acting against the Qun, it's both.
From a storytelling viewpoint, if my character has a large role in an epic story, then I want their decisions to have consequences for the big picture, and the political power distribution in my world-state to depend on my decisions to some degree. I'm fine with having little impact if my role is small, and I'm fine with a small role (like in DA2), but I don't like my role being large but irrelevant.
From my personal ideology, in everything but economic matters I'm a radical individualist, and so the Qun goes so much against the grain for me that I'd rather like to destroy it completely. Of course, from a storytelling viewpoint I shouldn't be able to do that, but a decisive act against it should be possible.
If you refer to my preference for less religion, that's a personal matter because I'm very critical of religion IRL. I would be in favor of dealing with religion more if it was possible to make decisions intended to reduce its role, and - see above - those decisions to actually have some impact. That doesn't seem very likely given Thedas' cultures, and it's possible you couldn't create such a setup without it feeling artificial. So, I'd rather keep away from it.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 30, 2019 17:34:05 GMT
The whole sequence just feels surreal. Why not send word for Cullen and the Inquisition forces while staying in the area and terrorizing the Wardens instead of leaving them to their rituals for weeks or months? It's like leaving Conner to get the mages all over again, except ten times more stupid and your only option. Wouldn't people have complained about being forced into a major mission that way? One of the core features of OW games is that you get to pick and choose the things you want to do, and when you do them. Which, yes, does mean that they're never going to take time and distance seriously.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Mar 30, 2019 17:43:44 GMT
The whole sequence just feels surreal. Why not send word for Cullen and the Inquisition forces while staying in the area and terrorizing the Wardens instead of leaving them to their rituals for weeks or months? It's like leaving Conner to get the mages all over again, except ten times more stupid and your only option. Wouldn't people have complained about being forced into a major mission that way? One of the core features of OW games is that you get to pick and choose the things you want to do, and when you do them. Which, yes, does mean that they're never going to take time and distance seriously. I'd like to see this design conundrum solved one day, but I've yet to see an open world game do it.
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 30, 2019 18:31:43 GMT
The whole sequence just feels surreal. Why not send word for Cullen and the Inquisition forces while staying in the area and terrorizing the Wardens instead of leaving them to their rituals for weeks or months? It's like leaving Conner to get the mages all over again, except ten times more stupid and your only option. Wouldn't people have complained about being forced into a major mission that way? One of the core features of OW games is that you get to pick and choose the things you want to do, and when you do them. Which, yes, does mean that they're never going to take time and distance seriously. So far as you know the first time around, you already commit yourself to doing a main story quest upon traveling all the way to the Western Approach and interrupting the first ritual. Except it turns out just to be a two-minute confrontation with a minor reveal. At least giving you the choice of sending for reinforcements and continuing the campaign against the Wardens immediately as an alternative to dragging your ass all the way back to Skyhold and then back again just to coordinate would have made sense and not totally broken immersion. There are tons of inventive ways to make each quest feel like an actually planned excursion while leaving it open to being completed at any time so far as the player is concerned. Give me any two quests in the series and I'll give you a plausible headcanon rationale for putting one of them off in favor of the other, and time being treated semi-realistically wouldn't really interfere with that. Quest writers just never cared enough to make the effort, and in gameplay it feels like they don't expect us to need consistent storytelling, which is annoying as hell when that's exactly why you play the game. I'm not saying that I'd want every quest to have an explicit timetable and every trip to another location to have marked duration and dates, but just giving you the feeling that time passes in the setting and might be worth thinking about wouldn't take nearly that much. Just a few characters occasionally, vaguely using days or weeks when referring to an upcoming event doesn't keep you from doing other things in the meantime while still giving you a sense that things progress throughout the setting in a somewhat rational fashion. Traveling back and forth across a whole continent with medieval travel methods four times between three fairly short consecutive main story quests... doesn't.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 30, 2019 19:53:31 GMT
The confrontation is one short fight and a cutscene, true, but to get to that point you've already had to transit about 2/3 of the Western Approach. I'm also assuming that the proposal means adding a bunch of mandatory content between that confrontation and the Inquisition forces arriving for the start of HLtA proper.
But yeah, headcanon can solve anything, if you work hard enough.
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Post by Fredward on Mar 30, 2019 20:11:29 GMT
In terms of atmosphere I'd like them to take ques from Penny Dreadful, dark, moody and lush.
In terms of tone... I know Twitcher elicits eye rolls with how often it's mentioned (occasionally from me) as a point of comparison but at it's better moments it embodies what I consider mature storytelling, the Baron's storyline (though I disagree with the read fans often give about their being equal blame to be handed out), Iris and Olgierd. Layered characters, multiple perspectives, nuanced problems. Twitcher also sometimes slips into the borderline gratuitous, watching Eilhart getting her eyes put out, hearing Triss get tortured, hearing a woman relay her death involving being paralyzed but conscious and getting eaten alive by rats, finding a woman brutalized in a cell and begging for death, that one guy who had dead women draped all over his abode like decorations etc. Some of these justify their existence as impactful moments and not just shock value better than others but it is the other part of 'mature' storytelling I'm not going to censure entirely but that I would prefer as emphasis points rather than the whole meal. 85% of the former and maybe like 15% of the latter basically.
And it's not DA is entirely absent of these anyway. In the dark future Leliana had been withstanding years of progressive skinning. She had no face skin. What happens with the red templars is bleak. Frankenmom, while also kind of ridiculous, is horrifying. Hespeth from the Origins. Whether it's a failure on the devs side to not grind our faces in it, ruminate on it or provide lovingly detailed textures to really drive it home or whether it's a failure on the consumers side to not be gratified by (actually rather explicit) implicits is less clear.
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Post by boxofscreaming on Mar 30, 2019 21:08:18 GMT
I'm a firm believer in the idea that developers should do what they want to do, not what fans want.
That said, my general preference would be less Lord of the Rings or Song of Ice and Fire and more Conan (the Howard stories, not the film) and Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser.
DA2 had that feel for me.
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Post by river82 on Mar 30, 2019 21:44:16 GMT
I'm a firm believer in the idea that developers should do what they want to do, not what fans want. That said, my general preference would be less Lord of the Rings or Song of Ice and Fire and more Conan (the Howard stories, not the film) and Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser. DA2 had that feel for me. I often hear this, but it's always confusing to me. There are hundreds of developers working on a game, do they all get to do what they want? Maybe on a minor level, if they're lucky, but the major decisions are made up on high. Basically "a few people get to do what they want" and who knows what those decisions are based on. It's like a really nuanced and complex position involving a group of hundreds of people reduced down to a catchphrase meant for individuals "I can do what I want" - sure, until you grow up, become employed and then you do what your bosses want or you get no money Indies can still do what they want because they're small enough. And even then compromises ...
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 30, 2019 21:48:53 GMT
The confrontation is one short fight and a cutscene, true, but to get to that point you've already had to transit about 2/3 of the Western Approach. I'm also assuming that the proposal means adding a bunch of mandatory content between that confrontation and the Inquisition forces arriving for the start of HLtA proper.But yeah, headcanon can solve anything, if you work hard enough. Why? A quick conversation featuring the choice of staying or going back for reinforcements yourself if you're squeamish, one unnamed scout leaving to get word out and a timeskip to the moment Cullen arrives to find the party and Harding's men outside Adamant a little worse for wear but essentially fine after having waged some guerrilla warfare for a few weeks. Easy and done, ridiculously rad and no immersion broken. But no. Headcanon is great for smoothing over the sharp edges, no argument there, but at some point you start feeling annoyed that you might as well be writing a fanfiction because the game gives you so little with which to make the story work on any realistic level.
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Post by Gwydden on Mar 30, 2019 22:23:56 GMT
And it's not DA is entirely absent of these anyway. In the dark future [...] ... there is only war. Sorry, reflex. That said, my general preference would be less Lord of the Rings or Song of Ice and Fire and more Conan (the Howard stories, not the film) and Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser. DA2 had that feel for me. I would love a more sword and sorcery oriented fantasy game, but while DA2 comes closest I think it lacks the sense of wild adventure.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Mar 30, 2019 22:54:28 GMT
And it's not DA is entirely absent of these anyway. In the dark future [...] ... there is only war. Sorry, reflex. That said, my general preference would be less Lord of the Rings or Song of Ice and Fire and more Conan (the Howard stories, not the film) and Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser. DA2 had that feel for me. I would love a more sword and sorcery oriented fantasy game, but while DA2 comes closest I think it lacks the sense of wild adventure. How so? I think this this was embodied quite well in the origin stories, but I'm likely not as versed as you.
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Post by Gwydden on Mar 30, 2019 23:42:38 GMT
How so? I think this this was embodied quite well in the origin stories, but I'm likely not as versed as you. Well, the origin stories weren't in DA2, for starters. But what I meant is that sword and sorcery is pre-Tolkien and therefore is often more strikingly imaginative than most modern high fantasy, sometimes even downright bizarre. Some of it comes across in the creatures and locations, and some of it is more thematic and structural: instead of paragons of virtue in epic quests to save the world you get antiheroes making their way however they can, as thieves, pirates, mercenaries and, if they get lucky, kings and generals. DA2 kind of has that? Hawke is kicked around by others too much and lacks any meaningful agency. But what's worse, Kirkwall is a pretty boring place. Where are the haunted desert ruins of a city inhabited by dream addicts, or the tropical pirate-ridden coastline that hides the remnants of a primordial civilization? It's not much of an adventure if you're stuck in Generic Fantasy City #9023884538. The irony is that, while northern Thedas is a more promising setting in that regard, I don't think Bioware is interested in giving personal stories another try.
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Post by Polka Dot on Mar 31, 2019 3:27:21 GMT
Does that have to do with your ideas about story/lore development, or personal ideology? If you refer to acting against the Qun, it's both. From a storytelling viewpoint, if my character has a large role in an epic story, then I want their decisions to have consequences for the big picture, and the political power distribution in my world-state to depend on my decisions to some degree. I'm fine with having little impact if my role is small, and I'm fine with a small role (like in DA2), but I don't like my role being large but irrelevant.
From my personal ideology, in everything but economic matters I'm a radical individualist, and so the Qun goes so much against the grain for me that I'd rather like to destroy it completely. Of course, from a storytelling viewpoint I shouldn't be able to do that, but a decisive act against it should be possible.
If you refer to my preference for less religion, that's a personal matter because I'm very critical of religion IRL. I would be in favor of dealing with religion more if it was possible to make decisions intended to reduce its role, and - see above - those decisions to actually have some impact. That doesn't seem very likely given Thedas' cultures, and it's possible you couldn't create such a setup without it feeling artificial. So, I'd rather keep away from it. Actually, I was hoping you'd address both - and you did. Thanks for your candor. They really did beat the drum of Andrastian faith in DAI, but it was kind of a one-off. Your character was supposedly the Herald of Andraste and the whole shitshow started with the death of the Divine, so it's kinda not a surprise. But just generally, I rather appreciate the way they're dealing with religion in Thedas. They seem to be validating different faiths. Andraste's ashes healed Arl Earmon, and that Guardian has some sort of mystical power. The Old Gods aren't exactly benign myths, and we're being shown some truths around some Evanuris. Then there's the Titans. The "stone" that the dwarves refer to, and what the heck is Sandal anyway? I guess what I'm suggesting here involves these things: -- The gods/goddesses of Thedas aren't invisible, inaccessible supreme beings but perhaps actual beings with powers beyond mere mortals. -- There does not appear to be any one true religion in Thedas. They all seem roughly equally legit. -- Modern religion IRL typically consists of some set of beliefs, practices, values, preferred behaviors, proscribed behaviors. In Thedas, at least some of the gods are actual actors creating stories and events in the here and now and influencing the world. Irrespective of my personal feelings about religion IRL, I think it adds a lot of flavor in Thedas and helps to define some of the cultural differences. As for the Qun - I am so ready for a deeper dive. I think we've all formed a number of assumptions and presuppositions about it, and some of them are going to turn out to be false.
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Post by Ieldra on Mar 31, 2019 9:46:42 GMT
If you refer to acting against the Qun, it's both. From a storytelling viewpoint, if my character has a large role in an epic story, then I want their decisions to have consequences for the big picture, and the political power distribution in my world-state to depend on my decisions to some degree. I'm fine with having little impact if my role is small, and I'm fine with a small role (like in DA2), but I don't like my role being large but irrelevant.
From my personal ideology, in everything but economic matters I'm a radical individualist, and so the Qun goes so much against the grain for me that I'd rather like to destroy it completely. Of course, from a storytelling viewpoint I shouldn't be able to do that, but a decisive act against it should be possible.
If you refer to my preference for less religion, that's a personal matter because I'm very critical of religion IRL. I would be in favor of dealing with religion more if it was possible to make decisions intended to reduce its role, and - see above - those decisions to actually have some impact. That doesn't seem very likely given Thedas' cultures, and it's possible you couldn't create such a setup without it feeling artificial. So, I'd rather keep away from it. Actually, I was hoping you'd address both - and you did. Thanks for your candor. They really did beat the drum of Andrastian faith in DAI, but it was kind of a one-off. Your character was supposedly the Herald of Andraste and the whole shitshow started with the death of the Divine, so it's kinda not a surprise. But just generally, I rather appreciate the way they're dealing with religion in Thedas. They seem to be validating different faiths. Andraste's ashes healed Arl Earmon, and that Guardian has some sort of mystical power. The Old Gods aren't exactly benign myths, and we're being shown some truths around some Evanuris. Then there's the Titans. The "stone" that the dwarves refer to, and what the heck is Sandal anyway? I guess what I'm suggesting here involves these things: -- The gods/goddesses of Thedas aren't invisible, inaccessible supreme beings but perhaps actual beings with powers beyond mere mortals. -- There does not appear to be any one true religion in Thedas. They all seem roughly equally legit. -- Modern religion IRL typically consists of some set of beliefs, practices, values, preferred behaviors, proscribed behaviors. In Thedas, at least some of the gods are actual actors creating stories and events in the here and now and influencing the world. Irrespective of my personal feelings about religion IRL, I think it adds a lot of flavor in Thedas and helps to define some of the cultural differences. As for the Qun - I am so ready for a deeper dive. I think we've all formed a number of assumptions and presuppositions about it, and some of them are going to turn out to be false. I agree that DA in general has had presented religion in a rather convincing way, and that it helps to define some of Thedas' cultures. Here are a few mixed comments on the topic, however, some of which may explain why Thedas' religions are particularly distasteful to me:
(1) Do you recall DAO's intro? "The Chantry teaches us that it was the hubris of men that brought the darkspawn into our world". Well, right after hearing this sentence, just ten seconds into the game, I knew that I would hate the Chantry and its dominant ideology. And so it turned out. The thing is, I value what the Seven attempted to do, if not their methods or their motivations. I am very much in favor of breaking taboos in order to gain knowledge, and as much for the former as for the latter. And southern Andrastianism has been the dominant background religion in DAO and DA2, as well as playing a more prominent role in DAI. While its presentation was good - I can appreciate that even though I hate the Chantry - I would really, really prefer to play in a different cultural sphere. It's the same reason why I want to change Tevinter rather than overthrow it. I value the ambition in its culture just as I despise its contempt for human life, and I would like to preserve the former.
(2) As for the Qun, they appear to have science. I like that. I like nothing else about it though, and even what they do with their understanding - destroying rather than making use of something, in this case the eluvian network. Apparently they never heard of Clarke's Third Law, and were unable to see what should be patently obvious to anyone with their kind of approach to the world's mysteries. As for their social policies, it should be apparent that many people can have a reasonably happy life under the Qun (basically everyone who doesn't think too deeply, or even worse, independently), but that doesn't change the fact that the Qun is totalitarian. Which is, as far as I'm concerned, a level up in evil from the simply authoritarian, since the latter usually leaves you alone as long as you don't rebel, and doesn't attempt to control every aspect of your life, and even your thoughts. IRL history, there was a memetic expression in the time of the Cold War: "Better dead than Red". Well, that's how I feel about the Qun, and I doubt very much that whatever they show us about it in future games will change that. Not unless they overhaul its fundamentals, and there's a limit to how far you can go with that without compromising the integrity of the existing lore. In addition, I fear that these days, where ever more of those who create art are obsessed with correct thinking and the number of iconoclasts is on the rise, Bioware will attempt to whitewash the totalitarian aspects of the Qun and its downsides.
(3) With regard to what Thedas' gods really are, it actually does not matter. They're all absent, otherwise it wouldn't be religion but rule. The Evanuris were god-kings, but Elvhenan's dominant ideology was government propaganda presenting itself as religion, which is readily apparent by Fen'Harel's rebellion. Not that there isn't significant overlap between those aspects, but I contend that a religion's longevity depends on its gods being absent, or at least non-communicative. Any real and active god would come to be regarded, in time, as nothing more than a superpowered extradimensional wizard, or - if you take Clarke's law into account - a being with access to sufficiently advanced technology (that is, btw., what my forum titel is all about).
(4) With regard to there not being one true faith, well, that's integral to religion in general, because it doesn't matter what the gods actually are, the important thing is that something or someone is regarded as a god. The attribute "god" can never be something intrinsic to a being, it's always a relative term at least for something that really exists. The difference between a superpowered wizard and a real and active god is nothing more than that the latter is regarded as a god while the former isn't. So there can't ever be one true faith. If a religion's fundamentals are real enough to be undeniable, again, it's rule rather than religion.
So, from my personal viewpoint the Qun and southern Andrastianism are about equally distasteful, while the elven religion at öeast has the merit of being largely irrelevant (ironic, that, given how much its historical roots are about to affect the world). Meanwhile, Avvar spirituality is the odd thing out, being more a kind of framework for a symbiotic relationship between different kinds of beings.
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 31, 2019 11:36:29 GMT
I agree that DA in general has had presented religion in a rather convincing way, and that it helps to define some of Thedas' cultures. Here are a few mixed comments on the topic, however, some of which may explain why Thedas' religions are particularly distasteful to me: (1) Do you recall DAO's intro? "The Chantry teaches us that it was the hubris of men that brought the darkspawn into our world". Well, right after hearing this sentence, just ten seconds into the game, I knew that I would hate the Chantry and its dominant ideology. And so it turned out. The thing is, I value what the Seven attempted to do, if not their methods or their motivations. I am very much in favor of breaking taboos in order to gain knowledge, and as much for the former as for the latter. And southern Andrastianism has been the dominant background religion in DAO and DA2, as well as playing a more prominent role in DAI. While its presentation was good - I can appreciate that even though I hate the Chantry - I would really, really prefer to play in a different cultural sphere. It's the same reason why I want to change Tevinter rather than overthrow it. I value the ambition in its culture just as I despise its contempt for human life, and I would like to preserve the former.
(2) As for the Qun, they appear to have science. I like that. I like nothing else about it though, and even what they do with their understanding - destroying rather than making use of something, in this case the eluvian network. Apparently they never heard of Clarke's Third Law, and were unable to see what should be patently obvious to anyone with their kind of approach to the world's mysteries. As for their social policies, it should be apparent that many people can have a reasonably happy life under the Qun (basically everyone who doesn't think too deeply, or even worse, independently), but that doesn't change the fact that the Qun is totalitarian. Which is, as far as I'm concerned, a level up in evil from the simply authoritarian, since the latter usually leaves you alone as long as you don't rebel, and doesn't attempt to control every aspect of your life, and even your thoughts. IRL history, there was a memetic expression in the time of the Cold War: "Better dead than Red". Well, that's how I feel about the Qun, and I doubt very much that whatever they show us about it in future games will change that. Not unless they overhaul its fundamentals, and there's a limit to how far you can go with that without compromising the integrity of the existing lore. In addition, I fear that these days, where ever more of those who create art are obsessed with correct thinking and the number of iconoclasts is on the rise, Bioware will attempt to whitewash the totalitarian aspects of the Qun and its downsides.
(3) With regard to what Thedas' gods really are, it actually does not matter. They're all absent, otherwise it wouldn't be religion but rule. The Evanuris were god-kings, but Elvhenan's dominant ideology was government propaganda presenting itself as religion, which is readily apparent by Fen'Harel's rebellion. Not that there isn't significant overlap between those aspects, but I contend that a religion's longevity depends on its gods being absent, or at least non-communicative. Any real and active god would come to be regarded, in time, as nothing more than a superpowered extradimensional wizard, or - if you take Clarke's law into account - a being with access to sufficiently advanced technology (that is, btw., what my forum titel is all about).
(4) With regard to there not being one true faith, well, that's integral to religion in general, because it doesn't matter what the gods actually are, the important thing is that something or someone is regarded as a god. The attribute "god" can never be something intrinsic to a being, it's always a relative term at least for something that really exists. The difference between a superpowered wizard and a real and active god is nothing more than that the latter is regarded as a god while the former isn't. So there can't ever be one true faith. If a religion's fundamentals are real enough to be undeniable, again, it's rule rather than religion. So, from my personal viewpoint the Qun and southern Andrastianism are about equally distasteful, while the elven religion at öeast has the merit of being largely irrelevant (ironic, that, given how much its historical roots are about to affect the world). Meanwhile, Avvar spirituality is the odd thing out, being more a kind of framework for a symbiotic relationship between different kinds of beings.
I think I agree with everything, more or less, especially the Qun. Personally though, I'm not so keen on breaking taboos for knowledge unless that knowledge promises to be very practical and useful and non-destructive, and I'm fascinated with religion and mythology as a method of carrying important moral lessons and information through very unstable periods of ancient history, among its other benefits to society. It always gives me that shiver of existential terror when mythological or religious figures or dynamics turn out to be based on incredibly messed-up and brutal reality. I think that's really really cool, and it's one of my favorite things about Inquisition. Sera freaking out about revelations about the Elven gods and Dorian bitterly accepting the implication that his people really did cause the Blights are both strong character moments to me. But to get there we need to get used to some widely held and vaguely plausible beliefs that can later be confirmed in interesting ways. So medieval and pre-medieval fantasy always feels pretty bereft to me without some heavy religious themes, which would be necessary underpinning for a society to have a chance at ever entering an Enlightenment phase in any case. Although Andrastianism doesn't follow the framework all that well. The God actually being absent is one thing, but the doctrine being one of God having completely given up on humanity and ordinary people no longer having individual divine value to Him seems implausible for a "successful" religion. That thought also doesn't come across through the behavior of the actually faithful, who constantly measure themselves and each other in His theoretical, rather than hypothetical, approval and love I do imagine that as Andrestianism as a faith is heavily geographically centered in Orlais and mostly revolves around it and Ferelden, we hopefully will get other variants and interpretations and even entirely separate faiths and historical views throughout Northern Thedas, even beyond the Tevinter approach to the whole thing. And yup, it would be quite nice if the devs didn't whitewash the realistic effects of totalitarian communism on society. In some sense I do agree with Panda that that might be heading towards a turning point of some sort, because that really would be going too far, and expose the writers as being obviously politically biased towards a ridiculously murderous doctrine in real life. That said, the Qunari who appear invading a Tevinter city in one of the tie-in comics are portrayed as pretty monstrous and ruthless, so at the very least it doesn't look like Dragon Age is planning on softening their foreign policy.
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Post by The Elder King on Mar 31, 2019 12:43:25 GMT
I don’t see where the devs shown the Qun in a sympathetic light, to be honest. They gave them a few positive traits, like the scientific mindset, and their acceptance of transgenders (although I think that on this topic they need to state a bit more clearer how it works), but at the same time they shown of monstrous their treatment of mages is.
Also, as an organization, they were mostly portrayed negatively, with the invasion in Kirkwall and the one in Trespasser, as well as their clear longtime goal to conquer all of Thedas. The only reason those previous attempt might appear less negative to some is the cesspool that Kirkwall and its leaders were, and the longtime rival of the Qun being another prime example of oppressive country, the Imperium.
On the whole topic of religion and difference between the two branches of Andrastian faiths, my opinion is the same as for every other countries, organizations and groups in Thedas: they all have flaws and negative traits, some more then others.
Something I’d want to point out about the Imperium is, by separating for a second the issue on how the magocracy/nobles treat the rest of the population, is that while the research of knowledge and going against taboos or dogmas is positive or not necessarily negative, the goal for it was and always is about having more power for a few and using it to enslave and oppress more people. And even not considering that, their try to enter the Golden City was still reckless, and not because they were going against a taboo, and not only because of the massive resources used on it (they didn’t care about human lives, but they certainly did care about lyrium. Using a third of the lyrium reserves for something they didn’t know if it’d fail or not is not smart, since they’d be left seriously weakened), but because they had no freaking clue on what was going to happen. They naively thought everything wasn’t going to be all right without thinking of the risks or possible negative effects or results of their actions. Research for more knowledge isn’t done without considering at all the risks involved.
And while the Chantry phrase at the Origins intro is clear on the stance of that organization on those kind of research/actions, it doesn’t change the fact that for the particular event of the magisters trying to enter the Golden City, it was a wrong move. Not only it brought the Blights in Thedas, but even egoistically, it lead to the Imperium losing their hold on Thedas and gradually becoming weaker and weaker.
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Post by theascendent on Mar 31, 2019 13:22:56 GMT
Religion was a big part of Inquisition, but I am hoping for more political emphasis in the next DA game. The first game was setting the world. The second dealt with the issue of Mages vs Templars. Inquisition was on the role faith plays. Tevinter is an extremely controversial place and I want to feel morally ambiguous again. Thedas is a grim dark place and Tevinter is the perfect place to remind us of that.
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 31, 2019 15:28:58 GMT
I don’t see where the devs shown the Qun in a sympathetic light, to be honest. They gave them a few positive traits, like the scientific mindset, and their acceptance of transgenders (although I think that on this topic they need to state a bit more clearer how it works), but at the same time they shown of monstrous their treatment of mages is. Oh, it's not that Bioware has tried to portray the Qunari in a particularly positive light before, they definitely haven't. The issue is that shedding more light on Qunari society is eventually going to have to illustrate how the writers actually imagine a nation dominated by what is essentially totalitarian communism and the eradication of individuality on a political level, not unlike what we saw in Mao's China and in the worst days of the Soviet Union. The problem with that is that a lot of the philosophy behind those doctrines has a pretty strong foothold in modern day western academia and radical left-wing politics. Which are loud. For that reason the actual history of communism isn't taught or talked about much these days, despite it involving by far the greatest and best-documented mass-murders and most catastrophic attempts at social engineering in modern history. Which some would argue is an abject failure to learn from our mistakes. The question is whether the devs are going to dare to go there for real for fear of disturbing people who still identify with and even preach some of those philosophies adapted to the modern climate, or soften and whitewash it and disturb anyone who knows anything about the actual history it reflects. As you say, it's not like Bioware has failed to make the Qunari feel like murderous zealots throughout the series so far. We're just hoping they won't get cold feet if the spotlight does move over to Par Vollen and we really get to see how messed up and dysfunctional their society realistically would be based on what we already know about it. In the same sense that nobody would want the game to feature a fantasy version of Nazi Germany, only inexplicably functioning perfectly and happily despite their ideology. Not trying to start a political or philosophical discussion, just clarifying why some of us are hoping that we get to see and treat the Qunari with warts and all, and will be concerned if we don't.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 31, 2019 16:19:46 GMT
(3) With regard to what Thedas' gods really are, it actually does not matter. They're all absent, otherwise it wouldn't be religion but rule. The Evanuris were god-kings, but Elvhenan's dominant ideology was government propaganda presenting itself as religion, which is readily apparent by Fen'Harel's rebellion. Not that there isn't significant overlap between those aspects, but I contend that a religion's longevity depends on its gods being absent, or at least non-communicative. Any real and active god would come to be regarded, in time, as nothing more than a superpowered extradimensional wizard, or - if you take Clarke's law into account - a being with access to sufficiently advanced technology (that is, btw., what my forum titel is all about).
I suspect in the case of the Evanuris their rule was a bit more than simply being regarded as gods. They employed vallaslin to mark their devotees. Given that vallaslin translated to "blood writing", I strongly suspect that blood magic was used to keep their underlings in line.
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Post by Gwydden on Mar 31, 2019 16:30:05 GMT
Oh, it's not that Bioware has tried to portray the Qunari in a particularly positive light before, they definitely haven't. The issue is that shedding more light on Qunari society is eventually going to have to illustrate how the writers actually imagine a nation dominated by what is essentially totalitarian communism and the eradication of individuality on a political level, not unlike what we saw in Mao's China and in the worst days of the Soviet Union. The problem with that is that a lot of the philosophy behind those doctrines has a pretty strong foothold in modern day western academia and radical left-wing politics. Which are loud. For that reason the actual history of communism isn't taught or talked about much these days, despite it involving by far the greatest and best-documented mass-murders and most catastrophic attempts at social engineering in modern history. Which some would argue is an abject failure to learn from our mistakes. The question is whether the devs are going to dare to go there for real for fear of disturbing people who still identify with and even preach some of those philosophies adapted to the modern climate, or soften and whitewash it and disturb anyone who knows anything about the actual history it reflects. As you say, it's not like Bioware has failed to make the Qunari feel like murderous zealots throughout the series so far. We're just hoping they won't get cold feet if the spotlight does move over to Par Vollen and we really get to see how messed up and dysfunctional their society realistically would be based on what we already know about it. In the same sense that nobody would want the game to feature a fantasy version of Nazi Germany, only inexplicably functioning perfectly and happily despite their ideology. Not trying to start a political or philosophical discussion, just clarifying why some of us are hoping that we get to see and treat the Qunari with warts and all, and will be concerned if we don't. There are collectivist and totalitarian ideologies beyond communism, and the Qun reminds me as much of Plato's Republic and Confucianism as it does Marxism. I also wouldn't call it a religion. In fact, the Qun is easily my favorite aspect of the DA setting, and that has a lot to do with how it isn't quite like anything from either real life or previous popular fiction. Imagine that, a genuinely novel society in speculative fiction! My ideal DA game would ditch all the ancient evils and just focus on the Qunari as the main antagonist; it's been set up plenty and it would make for a much more compelling narrative. It helps that you can kind of see why some would find it appealing — the other Thedosian societies are deeply flawed as well, and for certain groups life under the Qun may genuinely be an improvement — but surrendering all of your personal freedom is a pretty big admission price. A close up look at Qunari society and what it means to be part of it is something I've been anticipating since DA:O. But I really don't want the Qun turned into a hamfisted allegory for communism. If that's the intention, it really is not a good analogy, and it would hurt the uniqueness of the concept. The field is ripe for all manner of thematic exploration, about the value and the limits of freedom, social responsibility, and meritocracy; there's no need to involve modern political systems that don't exist in Thedas. I believe the audience is perceptive enough that parallels will inevitably arise without any need to spell them out.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 31, 2019 16:40:14 GMT
@ noxluxe: I have no idea what you're talking about. We know how the Qun runs things. It's bad. Nobody pretends it isn't bad.
Could you provide an example of what you're worried about happening?
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 31, 2019 17:15:53 GMT
@ noxluxe: I have no idea what you're talking about. We know how the Qun runs things. It's bad. Nobody pretends it isn't bad. Could you provide an example of what you're worried about happening? You're welcome, in fact I'd encourage you, to read up on that part of history yourself if you're curious, and the dynamics and numbers of casualties involved, and how quickly it has escalated into complete disaster every time such systems have been attempted in real life. Then I believe you would see my meaning. As I said, I was clarifying and not debating or discussing. It really is way too grim and loaded a subject to get properly into on this forum, let alone this thread. There are collectivist and totalitarian ideologies beyond communism, and the Qun reminds me as much of Plato's Republic and Confucianism as it does Marxism. I also wouldn't call it a religion. In fact, the Qun is easily my favorite aspect of the DA setting, and that has a lot to do with how it isn't quite like anything from either real life or previous popular fiction. Imagine that, a genuinely novel society in speculative fiction! My ideal DA game would ditch all the ancient evils and just focus on the Qunari as the main antagonist; it's been set up plenty and it would make for a much more compelling narrative. It helps that you can kind of see why some would find it appealing — the other Thedosian societies are deeply flawed as well, and for certain groups life under the Qun may genuinely be an improvement — but surrendering all of your personal freedom is a pretty big admission price. A close up look at Qunari society and what it means to be part of it is something I've been anticipating since DA:O. But I really don't want the Qun turned into a hamfisted allegory for communism. If that's the intention, it really is not a good analogy, and it would hurt the uniqueness of the concept. The field is ripe for all manner of thematic exploration, about the value and the limits of freedom, social responsibility, and meritocracy; there's no need to involve modern political systems that don't exist in Thedas. I believe the audience is perceptive enough that parallels will inevitably arise without any need to spell them out. I enjoy the Qunari too, especially the individuals in the games so far, and really like what they bring to the series. And I agree that there must be ways to do them elegantly without turning anything into bald-faced allegory. I'm not saying that there aren't cool and interesting directions in which to take the current concept. Just that there are really deep and really dark and really concerning pitfalls as well.
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