mmoblitz
N3
USN-Retired
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: mmoblitz
PSN: NotPC
Posts: 515 Likes: 590
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mmoblitz
USN-Retired
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mmoblitz
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by mmoblitz on Feb 19, 2019 12:47:45 GMT
I didn't mention Inquisition, I mentioned Andromeda and Anthem. I respect Inquisition for maintaining a seriousness in its storytelling. If you reread the OP you'll notice that, once again, no mention of Inquisition is made. What is epic fantasy? Epic fantasy, a thousand years ago, used to have a very defined and specific meaning that has largely become obsolete these days. When people talk about epic fantasy these days they tend to talk about fantasy which is large in scope, the world is large, the problem affects the world, the consequences are large, the villains are larger than life. Epic fantasy is relatively self-explanatory in that it deals with the scope and scale of the story. Something is of epic scale if it threatens an entire world or universe. Epic stories don’t just involve a village, city, or even country, they are far more wide-reaching and are filled to the brim with so many characters you may need to keep a list of them to hand. To accompany this epic plot, you often have a novel of epic length. You know the kind… where they could double as weights or door stops in a violent storm. Epic stories also tend to have fairly black and white ideas of good and evil/light and dark. Think Jedi versus Sith, everyone in Middle Earth that’s not under Sauron’s control, or Belgarion’s questing party against Torak in The Belgariad. This genre also tends to include magic in some guise as well as characters on a quest, but these are elements they also tend to share with the high fantasy subgenre.pop-verse.com/2015/05/13/epic-heroic-urban-whats-the-difference-between-fantasy-sub-genres/So bringing this back to Bioware, it's very hard to write a story with dire consequences, a huge problem, and terrible villains, when everything is always light hearted *looks at Andromeda* Orrrrrr... Andromeda's tone and story are fine, and people are just trying to assert their personal taste as objective fact. Such as you?
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Feb 19, 2019 17:05:08 GMT
I think "show don't tell" is often bad advice. Much of the plot of The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind was told through books and letters and it ended up as one of the most thought-provoking and memorable stories in an RPG. God forbid anyone read. Anyway, I'd go for a middle ground. We don't have to see everything personally, but perhaps adding more ambient dialogue would accomplish a lot of this. The only problem is to make people actually listen or pay attention.
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Post by Iddy on Feb 19, 2019 17:08:20 GMT
I think "show don't tell" is often bad advice. Much of the plot of The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind was told through books and letters and it ended up as one of the most thought-provoking and memorable stories in an RPG. But that's just lore, not the plot itself.
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Post by river82 on Feb 19, 2019 20:51:20 GMT
I think "show don't tell" is often bad advice. Much of the plot of The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind was told through books and letters and it ended up as one of the most thought-provoking and memorable stories in an RPG. But that's just lore, not the plot itself. It's important, but it's also important to know what to show and what to tell. For example, it's hard to generate atmosphere without show - for example showing cruel acts of oppression and how it affects people and how it affects people's lives makes much more of an impact than a letter saying "we are oppressed, and very scared". That being said showing every single little thing will very quickly become tedious. <iframe width="23.96" height="4.84" id="MoatPxIOPT0_10691462" scrolling="no" style="border-style: none; left: 15px; top: -5px; width: 23.96px; height: 4.84px; position: absolute; z-index: -9999;"></iframe> <iframe width="23.96" height="4.84" id="MoatPxIOPT0_80216203" scrolling="no" style="border-style: none; left: 1138px; top: -5px; width: 23.96px; height: 4.84px; position: absolute; z-index: -9999;"></iframe> <iframe width="23.96" height="4.84" id="MoatPxIOPT0_62076105" scrolling="no" style="border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 182px; width: 23.96px; height: 4.84px; position: absolute; z-index: -9999;"></iframe> <iframe width="23.96" height="4.84" id="MoatPxIOPT0_21278792" scrolling="no" style="border-style: none; left: 1138px; top: 182px; width: 23.96px; height: 4.84px; position: absolute; z-index: -9999;"></iframe>
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Sylvius the Mad
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 686 Likes: 740
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Feb 19, 2019 21:17:24 GMT
1) Hub areas need to be more vibrant with active NPCs. I don't like the idea of having hub areas. We're adventuring. Why are spending all this time in town? I would vastly prefer a return to DO rather than show or tell. The narrative should move forward based on things we DO as part of gameplay, not scripted events. BioWare has a history of not doing this well. They tried in ME2 with Legion, but all they did was deprive the player of information so the decision had to be made blind. That was awful (I hated ME2). The trick here is to make it so that every decision has both good and bad outcomes, or that it's not possible to tell which outcomes are good or bad. A principled decision is never difficult. If you know your characters values and make the decision based on that, it's never going to be hard. But accepting negative consequences sometimes is hard. Why do we need a villain? I've been asking for an end to these Kill Foozle plots for 20 years. Has everyone forgotten Ultima IV?
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Little Bengel
N3
Partying like it's 1999
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 950 Likes: 2,613
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geminifreak
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Little Bengel on Feb 19, 2019 21:26:45 GMT
I didn't mention Inquisition, I mentioned Andromeda and Anthem. I respect Inquisition for maintaining a seriousness in its storytelling. If you reread the OP you'll notice that, once again, no mention of Inquisition is made. What is epic fantasy? Epic fantasy, a thousand years ago, used to have a very defined and specific meaning that has largely become obsolete these days. When people talk about epic fantasy these days they tend to talk about fantasy which is large in scope, the world is large, the problem affects the world, the consequences are large, the villains are larger than life. Epic fantasy is relatively self-explanatory in that it deals with the scope and scale of the story. Something is of epic scale if it threatens an entire world or universe. Epic stories don’t just involve a village, city, or even country, they are far more wide-reaching and are filled to the brim with so many characters you may need to keep a list of them to hand. To accompany this epic plot, you often have a novel of epic length. You know the kind… where they could double as weights or door stops in a violent storm. Epic stories also tend to have fairly black and white ideas of good and evil/light and dark. Think Jedi versus Sith, everyone in Middle Earth that’s not under Sauron’s control, or Belgarion’s questing party against Torak in The Belgariad. This genre also tends to include magic in some guise as well as characters on a quest, but these are elements they also tend to share with the high fantasy subgenre.pop-verse.com/2015/05/13/epic-heroic-urban-whats-the-difference-between-fantasy-sub-genres/So bringing this back to Bioware, it's very hard to write a story with dire consequences, a huge problem, and terrible villains, when everything is always light hearted *looks at Andromeda* Orrrrrr... Andromeda's tone and story are fine, and people are just trying to assert their personal taste as objective fact. For a more personal story, Andromeda's tone can work... depending on the story you want to tell. What we got with Andromeda (where the Initiative is undergoing extremely difficult times and is on the brink of failure) doesn't mesh well with the tone it adopted, in my opinion. As has been pointed out to me in an excellent post by Samhaim444, which was later taken to DM because of spoilers, Anthem is not always goofing around. And looks to be more serious than Andromeda, though still too light-hearted for me. So I wanted to reiterate that it is strictly my opinion (as I stated clearly above, despite PessimistPanda insisting I was asserting things as objective fact) that Bioware is better with a serious atmosphere sprinkled with light heartedness. People may disagree with that because people have different tastes, as is their right, but I'm also allowed to express my opinion which is that their stories are more impactful when serious ... some might even say darker, and that they should return to that style of writings for future stories. But I know there are some who would disagree vehemently with that I'll admit you piqued my curiosity there. Could you DM me as well?
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 20, 2019 0:37:46 GMT
Orrrrrr... Andromeda's tone and story are fine, and people are just trying to assert their personal taste as objective fact. Your complaining about me asserting my opinion as objective fact in a post where you asserted your opinion as objective fact ... I'm not making claims about what Bioware neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeds to have in its games, despite having no personal experience with game development.
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Post by ShadowAngel on Feb 20, 2019 2:02:36 GMT
Regarding 2 and 3:
Bioware has definitely gone more sitcom and I'd like for it to stop. I do however think Inquisition was better than DA2 at it to where it was at least tolerable. Andromeda was a joke and anthem is a wait and see for me.
As for show don't tell: I think they'll need to really cut down on the open world (which I actually would prefer them to do as dragon age isn't about exploring, nor should it be on multiple large ass deserts😠). Like Inquisition is a big game if you look at it, they'd need more time to really show more to those notes and such if they do it again. I think this suffers because of it being open world.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 20, 2019 2:10:35 GMT
Making people laugh (on purpose) at least actually takes talent and skill. Any 14-year-old girl with a laptop can and WILL churn out Tolstoy-length tales of rape and violence.
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Feb 20, 2019 2:45:47 GMT
In regard to the humor "problem" with recent Bioware game likes MEA, I would say that the issue is less about there being humor, since even grimdark properties like Warhammer 40K and Game of Thrones have humor in it, and more to do with the a lot of that humor sounding the same, which makes the cast feel bland and samey. Also, autodialogue isn't exactly my cup of tea and I do wish there was less of it.
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Post by river82 on Feb 20, 2019 5:11:03 GMT
Your complaining about me asserting my opinion as objective fact in a post where you asserted your opinion as objective fact ... I'm not making claims about what Bioware neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeds to have in its games, despite having no personal experience with game development. I prefaced that with "I believe" which is literally (going by the textbook definition of the word) means "in my opinion". I stated "in my opinion" or synonyms of that phrase 3 times in my posts, but I understand that ignoring those words is critical for you in pushing your agenda, which is to try and push off the boards any opinion you don't agree with. Let me be very clear, I won't be going anywhere and I'll be loudly stating my opinion in any thread I see fit. believe (verb): hold (something) as an opinion; think.Also your assumption is ... very interesting indeed.
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Andraste_Reborn
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 1,461 Likes: 6,314
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Feb 20, 2019 6:18:03 GMT
Some of you people never played Baldur's Gate, and it shows.
I don't know if Shattered Steel was funny since it's one of the few BioWare games I've never played, but they've certainly been doing humour ever since they've been making RPGs. I direct your attention to Xzar and Montaron, Minsc and Oopah the Exploding Ogre. The sequels are a bit more serious in tone because the plot gets more epic, but you can still run around with Minsc and Lilarcor and Jan Jansen and talk to the Beholder Spectator and choose a lot of silly dialogue along the way to defeating Irenicus and Amelissan.
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leadintea
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Baldur's Gate
Posts: 265 Likes: 379
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Post by leadintea on Feb 20, 2019 9:16:17 GMT
Some of you people never played Baldur's Gate, and it shows. I don't know if Shattered Steel was funny since it's one of the few BioWare games I've never played, but they've certainly been doing humour ever since they've been making RPGs. I direct your attention to Xzar and Montaron, Minsc and Oopah the Exploding Ogre. The sequels are a bit more serious in tone because the plot gets more epic, but you can still run around with Minsc and Lilarcor and Jan Jansen and talk to the Beholder Spectator and choose a lot of silly dialogue along the way to defeating Irenicus and Amelissan. Yeah, I've never been a fan of Bioware's humor, but it's not like it's something new - it's been there ever since their first games. They definitely became more snarky with DAO and I still remember a dev from the old-old BSN saying something to the effect of DA2 still retaining their signature snark, or something like that, and I remember just rolling my eyes at that statement. Ideally, I would love for them to dial their humor back a ton or remove it all together, since it can kill characters for me (Dorian in particular), but it's something that seems to be a huge part of Bioware games and I don't think removing it or changing it drastically would be something that comes easily to the writers.
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apollexander
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 350 Likes: 775
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Post by apollexander on Feb 20, 2019 11:04:42 GMT
While the activity in the hub is a big issue, there is a deeper issue of the hub. The hub feels isolated from the outside world. What you do in Skyhold/Normandy/Tempest is largely different from what you do in the wild. This breaks the immersion and the consistence of the world. This is even more serious in Anthem. Fort Tarsis is a completely different world from Bastion. People in Tarsis, factions in Tarsis, everything in Tarsis, feel disconnected with the rest of the world. Leaving Tarsis to Bastion is like passing through a wormhole to another universe. This kind of design may be OK in a looter-shooter game, but not OK in a modern open world RPG.
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Post by arvaarad on Feb 20, 2019 13:04:30 GMT
1) Hub areas need to be more vibrant with active NPCs. I don't like the idea of having hub areas. We're adventuring. Why are spending all this time in town? I would vastly prefer a return to DO rather than show or tell. The narrative should move forward based on things we DO as part of gameplay, not scripted events. BioWare has a history of not doing this well. They tried in ME2 with Legion, but all they did was deprive the player of information so the decision had to be made blind. That was awful (I hated ME2). The trick here is to make it so that every decision has both good and bad outcomes, or that it's not possible to tell which outcomes are good or bad. A principled decision is never difficult. If you know your characters values and make the decision based on that, it's never going to be hard. But accepting negative consequences sometimes is hard. Why do we need a villain? I've been asking for an end to these Kill Foozle plots for 20 years. Has everyone forgotten Ultima IV? I’d be down for no main villains. Sometimes a hero can be doing stuff rather than undoing/stopping what someone else is doing. There definitely seems to be a tendency (not sure if it’s more from Bioware or from the players) to assume that whoever acts first is in the wrong. But there’s a certain paralysis to that. I can’t make the world better, the best I can do is make sure it doesn’t get worse.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 20, 2019 14:41:18 GMT
I don't like the idea of having hub areas. We're adventuring. Why are spending all this time in town? I would vastly prefer a return to DO rather than show or tell. The narrative should move forward based on things we DO as part of gameplay, not scripted events. BioWare has a history of not doing this well. They tried in ME2 with Legion, but all they did was deprive the player of information so the decision had to be made blind. That was awful (I hated ME2). The trick here is to make it so that every decision has both good and bad outcomes, or that it's not possible to tell which outcomes are good or bad. A principled decision is never difficult. If you know your characters values and make the decision based on that, it's never going to be hard. But accepting negative consequences sometimes is hard. Why do we need a villain? I've been asking for an end to these Kill Foozle plots for 20 years. Has everyone forgotten Ultima IV? I’d be down for no main villains. Sometimes a hero can be doing stuff rather than undoing/stopping what someone else is doing. There definitely seems to be a tendency (not sure if it’s more from Bioware or from the players) to assume that whoever acts first is in the wrong. But there’s a certain paralysis to that. I can’t make the world better, the best I can do is make sure it doesn’t get worse. One of the reasons I prefer DA2 over the other games is that it felt like Hawke was more proactive than other protagonists... at least at first... at least the way I played him. Who the fuck knows anymore.
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melbella
N6
Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: melbella
Prime Posts: 2186
Prime Likes: 5778
Posts: 7,912 Likes: 24,200
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Trouble-shooting Space Diva
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August 2016
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by melbella on Feb 21, 2019 1:30:42 GMT
One of my favorite NPCs in the game. Especially when you stumble across him the second time!
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TheEmptyRoad
N2
Honor is a fool's prize, glory is no use to the dead.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: The3mptyRoad
PSN: TheEmptyRoad
Posts: 168 Likes: 300
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Honor is a fool's prize, glory is no use to the dead.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by TheEmptyRoad on Feb 21, 2019 7:04:49 GMT
An actual frickin' WAR between the Qun and Tevinter, like, don't hold anything back. War is hell, let us see it.
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Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 21, 2019 20:40:40 GMT
Better postures.
There's very little more immersion-breaking than walking into an intense confrontation where your character is supposed to try to seem impressive and reliable and intimidating, and then having them shuffle awkwardly into the spotlight in overly elaborate armor with a painful-looking slouch, open their mouth, and address people as if they're a standing tall and not showing any weakness.
I really don't get why Inquisition has a problem with this. None of the other games have, and the Inquisitor is by far the most public leader-y protagonist to date. Why can't they stand up straight or walk three steps like a normal person?
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Post by Sifr on Feb 21, 2019 21:09:56 GMT
"Get up, come on, get down with the thickness..."
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Post by cloud9 on Feb 22, 2019 5:54:19 GMT
Action/RPG combat system.
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Post by Ieldra on Feb 22, 2019 11:38:46 GMT
Better postures. There's very little more immersion-breaking than walking into an intense confrontation where your character is supposed to try to seem impressive and reliable and intimidating, and then having them shuffle awkwardly into the spotlight in overly elaborate armor with a painful-looking slouch, open their mouth, and address people as if they're a standing tall and not showing any weakness. I really don't get why Inquisition has a problem with this. None of the other games have, and the Inquisitor is by far the most public leader-y protagonist to date. Why can't they stand up straight or walk three steps like a normal person? They apparently can in normal gameplay, so why can't they in cutscenes? Someone must've choosen a really bad animation set.
Also, to pessimistpanda and all the others who want to turn DA into a soap opera: NO. There are really enough stories of that kind around, DA doesn't need to jump on the bandwagon.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 22, 2019 13:01:07 GMT
Better postures. There's very little more immersion-breaking than walking into an intense confrontation where your character is supposed to try to seem impressive and reliable and intimidating, and then having them shuffle awkwardly into the spotlight in overly elaborate armor with a painful-looking slouch, open their mouth, and address people as if they're a standing tall and not showing any weakness. I really don't get why Inquisition has a problem with this. None of the other games have, and the Inquisitor is by far the most public leader-y protagonist to date. Why can't they stand up straight or walk three steps like a normal person? They apparently can in normal gameplay, so why can't they in cutscenes? Someone must've choosen a really bad animation set.
Also, to pessimistpanda and all the others who want to turn DA into a soap opera: NO. There are really enough stories of that kind around, DA doesn't need to jump on the bandwagon. Yeah, I think you have it backwards. I want DA to maintain its current tone, which is, and always has been, fairly light-hearted. I have literally said some permutation of that sentence multiple times. 'Soap opera' is a term more befitting the humourless, gratuitously violent, juvenile melodrama that everyone else in here is asking for.
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Post by Ieldra on Feb 22, 2019 15:34:04 GMT
They apparently can in normal gameplay, so why can't they in cutscenes? Someone must've choosen a really bad animation set.
Also, to pessimistpanda and all the others who want to turn DA into a soap opera: NO. There are really enough stories of that kind around, DA doesn't need to jump on the bandwagon. Yeah, I think you have it backwards. I want DA to maintain its current tone, which is, and always has been, fairly light-hearted. I have literally said some permutation of that sentence multiple times. 'Soap opera' is a term more befitting the humourless, gratuitously violent, juvenile melodrama that everyone else in here is asking for. IMO the tone has changed since DAO, and I'd like the next game to be closer to DAO than to DAI in tone.
Also, you should look up your definitions. And lastly, you are mistaken. I would be, in fact, quite delighted with MUCH less casual, gratuitous violence, because that doesn't mean anything. What I want is that the things we are presented with have emotional and intellectual impact, and have, regarding to emotional impact, negative and positive impact with the same intensity. That does not mean more bad stuff, but it does mean that the bad stuff there is is presented with more impact, rather than in ways that leave you almost untouched. It also means that there is, occasionally, conflict between heart and mind, and that the former does not always give you fitting direction. And I want all that to matter, rather than being not more than an expression of character that becomes irrelevant in the end.
As for humor, well, I can't argue with any DA game with regard to that. I like DAI's funny scenes, I like dorky Alistair, and I like sarcastic Hawke, though a full game of *that* was a little much. The thing is, the humor and generally the good stuff wasn't sanitized in DAI, but the bad stuff was. It left DAI unbalanced and somewhat stale as a whole even if single scenes could be very good.
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alanc9
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alanc9
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 22, 2019 17:02:12 GMT
While the activity in the hub is a big issue, there is a deeper issue of the hub. The hub feels isolated from the outside world. What you do in Skyhold/Normandy/Tempest is largely different from what you do in the wild. This breaks the immersion and the consistence of the world. But that's kind of the point of having a home base, isn't it? Someplace to go where you can not be shot at, and do all the stuff you don't get to do when you're someplace where people are likely to shoot at you.
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