inherit
529
0
7,815
Nightscrawl
3,266
August 2016
nightscrawl
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Nightscrawl on Feb 23, 2019 13:22:38 GMT
... and the tone she takes with Dorian doesn't help. To me that scene is about two things: showing how Leliana changed over the intervening year and with torture*, and showing how Dorian deals with stressful situations. I was quite affected by various things during IHW. But I don't see the point of each player stating whatever thing from various games they were or weren't affected by: it's all subjective. Many many people find the singing of The Dawn Will Come rousing and inspiring. I find it schlocky and forced. But so what that I think of it that way? What is the point of this emotion tally? * Or rather, revealing more of her to the the Herald, who doesn't know her very well at that point.
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Apr 19, 2024 21:21:07 GMT
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witchcocktor
4,032
Sept 6, 2016 10:00:37 GMT
September 2016
witchcocktor
Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by witchcocktor on Feb 23, 2019 13:32:24 GMT
I don't think Inquisition in terms of overall tone was much different from the previous game, BUT, I will say that Inquisitor is a pretty weak character because often, they do not have a strong reaction to the things happening around them. Same thing can be said about the companions, whose dialogue during extremely worrisome situations left a lot to be desired, and sometimes their reactions edged on comedic and light. Sera was supposedly panicking in the Fade, but she was more comedic in tone than believably freaking out.
But I think there was a pretty dramatic change in Trespasser, where both companions and ESPECIALLY the Inquisitor started reacting more strongly to the things happening around them, whether it was good or bad. Inquisitor was able to have a moment of frustration and anger, as well as Josephine, and for once things seemed desperate, for everyone involved, while the vanilla game was pretty much '' haha, we'll deal with this no problem, no worries guys I got this haha. '' Bull's betrayal especially towards romanced Inquisitor or Dorian is also heartwrenching, as are the goodbyes your romanced partner gives you before the final mission. And the final chase for Solas, and Inquisitor's hand wanting to blow up, had a lot of companions being audibly concerned and worried for Inquisitor, and the voice acting was spectacular.
In DA4, they just need to make the PC and the companions have more moments of weakness and despair, and react much stronger to desperate and negative situations, because that's mostly how the tone is set to me personally. If most of the cast just crack light jokes during these situations, the situations will often seem less threatening and worrisome than they are.
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∯ Alien Wizard
729
0
Sept 14, 2023 6:08:41 GMT
9,897
Ieldra
4,771
August 2016
ieldra
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
25190
6519
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Post by Ieldra on Feb 23, 2019 13:43:46 GMT
What is the point of this emotion tally? We were talking about whether it was justified to talk about DAI as "sanitized", i.e. not showing the bad stuff in emotionally impactful ways. Thus, it makes sense to look at different scenes with an eye on emotional impact.
I don't deny that there is significant subjectivity here, but there is also cultural conditioning IMO, namely a tendency to back away from anything uncomfortable because it is, well, uncomfortable. Meanwhile, I say the scenes which drag you by the balls into something uncomfortable are the impactful scenes, those you remember. They may not be the best scenes in their respective stories (I certainly don't think Hespith's scene is the best in DAO just for being emotionally impactful) but if you want something in a game to be remembered, then it's best to place it outside people's comfort zone. Note that I recognize that this is not always good - after all the lead writers of ME3 got their main wish, they wanted the endings to be remembered - but lack of emotional impact can make a story forgettable. DAI's wasn't forgettable, but it also didn't stand out with anything particularly impactful.
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∯ Alien Wizard
729
0
Sept 14, 2023 6:08:41 GMT
9,897
Ieldra
4,771
August 2016
ieldra
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
25190
6519
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Post by Ieldra on Feb 23, 2019 14:05:05 GMT
I was actually more disturbed by the Red Templar than either Hespith or Leandra. Interesting. Can you pinpoint why?
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inherit
∯ Alien Wizard
729
0
Sept 14, 2023 6:08:41 GMT
9,897
Ieldra
4,771
August 2016
ieldra
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
25190
6519
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Post by Ieldra on Feb 23, 2019 15:19:31 GMT
In DA4, they just need to make the PC and the companions have more moments of weakness and despair, and react much stronger to desperate and negative situations, because that's mostly how the tone is set to me personally. If most of the cast just crack light jokes during these situations, the situations will often seem less threatening and worrisome than they are. That takes care of one aspect, but there's also a worldbuilding aspect involved. I'll go there with an example of DAO:
In the Human Noble origin, you can sleep with one of your servant girls if you're male (and with a male servant if you're female). Now I think we can all agree that's somewhat problematic, and when I played this scene I thought "Heck, I'm her boss, maybe I shouldn't do this", but there seemed to be some genuine and mutual attraction, I was curious (as the player), and as a Fereldan noble I wouldn't see such a big problem with it anyway so I went there. The result was a much increased emotional impact of what followed, since I made a connection with that girl, and Howe's goons killed her, and I resented him much more for having killed poor innocent Iona, who never did anything to him even by merely existing, than for destroying my home and killing my parents.
Now I think you can find at least two reasons why such a scene wouldn't be included in any AAA game made by a game developer of the English-speaking world five years later, in spite of illustrating aspects of Fereldan culture with very little effort and creating such a (desirable) emotional impact, and none of those reasons would have anything to do with storytelling or worldbuilding, but everything with RL morality and representation issues, which would be imposed on the fictional world in spite of the implicit knowledge that they don't apply everywhere. When I talk about DAI being sanitized, it is partly about this perceived adapation to prevailing RL morality of cultures which had been established with different standards, at any place where the main character and their actions would be affected. This resulted in the paradoxical situation that you could kill people by the hundreds, outright say you'll be using your status as Inquisitor for your own power, but not act out even the smallest instance of, say, racial prejudice, even against fictional races who are canonically victims of such. This struck me as profoundly artificial, as if even the mildest crossing of specific sensibilities put you immediately beyond the moral event horizon, while being outright malicious to the right people (like, for instance, making Erimond tranquil) did nothing to impact your standing as a hero. Not that I would want *that* option to be gone either. I tend not to use it, very much for RL sensibilities, but that it exists makes perfect sense. Worldbuilding is, I stand by that, more important than pandering to specific sensibilities of a subset of players.
Compare, for instance, Pathfinder: Kingmaker, which I'm currently playing and where you can act, and even more talk, in so many different ways, and where you never have the impression that your actions are limited by the morality of a world your character does not even know. I'm not sure if you can be a complete monster, since I have no desire to try, but there are enough pragmatic and evil options that make perfect sense, as well as some where you're simply an asshole, to create some real variety. You can be, for instance, mostly a good person with some particular blind spots, which strikes me as very, very realistic. And if you're genocidal and kill all the goblin tribes, that *is* regarded as an evil option but your people will love you for it. That's perfectly fine because it makes perfect sense. In that world.
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0
Apr 19, 2024 21:21:07 GMT
12,447
witchcocktor
4,032
Sept 6, 2016 10:00:37 GMT
September 2016
witchcocktor
Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by witchcocktor on Feb 23, 2019 15:40:03 GMT
In DA4, they just need to make the PC and the companions have more moments of weakness and despair, and react much stronger to desperate and negative situations, because that's mostly how the tone is set to me personally. If most of the cast just crack light jokes during these situations, the situations will often seem less threatening and worrisome than they are. That takes care of one aspect, but there's also a worldbuilding aspect involved. I'll go there with an example of DAO:
In the Human Noble origin, you can sleep with one of your servant girls if you're male (and with a male servant if you're female). Now I think we can all agree that's somewhat problematic, and when I played this scene I thought "Heck, I'm her boss, maybe I shouldn't do this", but there seemed to be some genuine and mutual attraction, I was curious (as the player), and as a Fereldan noble I wouldn't see such a big problem with it anyway so I went there. The result was a much increased emotional impact of what followed, since I made a connection with that girl, and Howe's goons killed her, and I resented him much more for having killed poor innocent Iona, who never did anything to him even by merely existing, than for destroying my home and killing my parents.
Now I think you can find at least two reasons why such a scene wouldn't be included in any AAA game made by a game developer of the English-speaking world five years later, in spite of illustrating aspects of Fereldan culture with very little effort and creating such a (desirable) emotional impact, and none of those reasons would have anything to do with storytelling or worldbuilding, but everything with RL morality and representation issues, which would be imposed on the fictional world in spite of the implicit knowledge that they don't apply everywhere. When I talk about DAI being sanitized, it is partly about this perceived adapation to prevailing RL morality of cultures which had been established with different standards, at any place where the main character and their actions would be affected. This resulted in the paradoxical situation that you could kill people by the hundreds, outright say you'll be using your status as Inquisitor for your own power, but not act out even the smallest instance of, say, racial prejudice, even against fictional races who are canonically victims of such. This struck me as profoundly artificial, as if even the mildest crossing of specific sensibilities put you immediately beyond the moral event horizon, while being outright malicious to the right people (like, for instance, making Erimond tranquil) did nothing to impact your standing as a hero. Not that I would want *that* option to be gone either. I tend not to use it, very much for RL sensibilities, but that it exists makes perfect sense. Worldbuilding is, I stand by that, more important than pandering to specific sensibilities of a subset of players.
Compare, for instance, Pathfinder: Kingmaker, which I'm currently playing and where you can act, and even more talk, in so many different ways, and where you never have the impression that your actions are limited by the morality of a world your character does not even know. I'm not sure if you can be a complete monster, since I have no desire to try, but there are enough pragmatic and evil options that make perfect sense, as well as some where you're simply an asshole, to create some real variety. You can be, for instance, mostly a good person with some particular blind spots, which strikes me as very, very realistic. And if you're genocidal and kill all the goblin tribes, that *is* regarded as an evil option but your people will love you for it. That's perfectly fine because it makes perfect sense. In that world.
Pandering to specific sensibilities... but in the end, where does the line between pandering to specific sensibilities of some players, and then not putting out work that could be extremely offensive and offputting start? Where is the line that shouldn't be crossed?
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Apr 23, 2024 23:17:06 GMT
2,724
Gwydden
1,267
November 2016
gwydden
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Gwydden on Feb 23, 2019 16:05:33 GMT
Now I think you can find at least two reasons why such a scene wouldn't be included in any AAA game made by a game developer of the English-speaking world five years later, in spite of illustrating aspects of Fereldan culture with very little effort and creating such a (desirable) emotional impact, and none of those reasons would have anything to do with storytelling or worldbuilding, but everything with RL morality and representation issues, which would be imposed on the fictional world in spite of the implicit knowledge that they don't apply everywhere. Okay, here's my problem with sundry forms of bigotry in fantasy fiction. Why is it there? If the answer is that you're putting in sexism, racism, homophobia, etc. as set dressing, that's rather childish and crass, no matter how much you try to hide behind supposed realism. If you're putting those things in, it better be because you will meaningfully engage with those ideas. Unfortunately, with the grimdark wave authors are eager to reach for them and therefore prove how edgy they are. During its inception DA took a lot from ASoIaF, but I am still not convinced that, say, its recurrent use of rape as a plot point was necessary.
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529
0
7,815
Nightscrawl
3,266
August 2016
nightscrawl
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Nightscrawl on Feb 23, 2019 16:05:34 GMT
In the Human Noble origin, you can sleep with one of your servant girls if you're male (and with a male servant if you're female). Now I think we can all agree that's somewhat problematic, and when I played this scene I thought "Heck, I'm her boss, maybe I shouldn't do this", but there seemed to be some genuine and mutual attraction, I was curious (as the player), and as a Fereldan noble I wouldn't see such a big problem with it anyway so I went there. Some factual errors here, but I don't fault you if you haven't played DAO in a long while. The two encounters you referred to are associated with Lady Landra, Eleanor Cousland's friend that is visiting. The elven woman, Iona, is a servant, yes; she's Landra's lady-in-waiting. The man, Dairren, is Landra's son, so he is also nobility. While it could be said that, in being a servant, Cousland has power over Iona, Cousland is not her direct boss. In addition, while the public conversation has Landra suggesting a match up based on gender (male for Iona and fem for Dairren), the later sexual encounters are open to both genders. This is one of the few opportunities in any game, outside of the official romances, that the player can express their sexuality, so it's rather refreshing in that regard. My male Cousland was gay and had the encounter with Dairren. I used that in my roleplay. He liked that Dairren was a nerdy bookworm and wanted to get to know him better in a real sense after the forces came back from Ostagar. Alas, it was not to be... I'm not interested in any of the DAO LIs, so I didn't have a LI in the game, just Dairren.
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0
Apr 23, 2024 23:17:06 GMT
2,724
Gwydden
1,267
November 2016
gwydden
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Gwydden on Feb 23, 2019 16:08:15 GMT
The two encounters you referred to are associated with Lady Landra, Eleanor Cousland's friend that is visiting. The elven woman, Iona, is a servant, yes; she's Landra's lady-in-waiting. The man, Dairren, is Landra's son, so he is also nobility. While it could be said that, in being a servant, Cousland has power over Iona, Cousland is not her direct boss. To be fair, the Warden is still a human noble and Iona an elven servant. The power disparity would have made it dangerous for her to say no even had she wanted to.
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∯ Alien Wizard
729
0
Sept 14, 2023 6:08:41 GMT
9,897
Ieldra
4,771
August 2016
ieldra
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
25190
6519
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Post by Ieldra on Feb 23, 2019 16:09:35 GMT
That takes care of one aspect, but there's also a worldbuilding aspect involved. I'll go there with an example of DAO:
In the Human Noble origin, you can sleep with one of your servant girls if you're male (and with a male servant if you're female). Now I think we can all agree that's somewhat problematic, and when I played this scene I thought "Heck, I'm her boss, maybe I shouldn't do this", but there seemed to be some genuine and mutual attraction, I was curious (as the player), and as a Fereldan noble I wouldn't see such a big problem with it anyway so I went there. The result was a much increased emotional impact of what followed, since I made a connection with that girl, and Howe's goons killed her, and I resented him much more for having killed poor innocent Iona, who never did anything to him even by merely existing, than for destroying my home and killing my parents.
Now I think you can find at least two reasons why such a scene wouldn't be included in any AAA game made by a game developer of the English-speaking world five years later, in spite of illustrating aspects of Fereldan culture with very little effort and creating such a (desirable) emotional impact, and none of those reasons would have anything to do with storytelling or worldbuilding, but everything with RL morality and representation issues, which would be imposed on the fictional world in spite of the implicit knowledge that they don't apply everywhere. When I talk about DAI being sanitized, it is partly about this perceived adapation to prevailing RL morality of cultures which had been established with different standards, at any place where the main character and their actions would be affected. This resulted in the paradoxical situation that you could kill people by the hundreds, outright say you'll be using your status as Inquisitor for your own power, but not act out even the smallest instance of, say, racial prejudice, even against fictional races who are canonically victims of such. This struck me as profoundly artificial, as if even the mildest crossing of specific sensibilities put you immediately beyond the moral event horizon, while being outright malicious to the right people (like, for instance, making Erimond tranquil) did nothing to impact your standing as a hero. Not that I would want *that* option to be gone either. I tend not to use it, very much for RL sensibilities, but that it exists makes perfect sense. Worldbuilding is, I stand by that, more important than pandering to specific sensibilities of a subset of players.
Compare, for instance, Pathfinder: Kingmaker, which I'm currently playing and where you can act, and even more talk, in so many different ways, and where you never have the impression that your actions are limited by the morality of a world your character does not even know. I'm not sure if you can be a complete monster, since I have no desire to try, but there are enough pragmatic and evil options that make perfect sense, as well as some where you're simply an asshole, to create some real variety. You can be, for instance, mostly a good person with some particular blind spots, which strikes me as very, very realistic. And if you're genocidal and kill all the goblin tribes, that *is* regarded as an evil option but your people will love you for it. That's perfectly fine because it makes perfect sense. In that world.
Pandering to specific sensibilities... but in the end, where does the line between pandering to specific sensibilities of some players, and then not putting out work that could be extremely offensive and offputting? Where is the line that shouldn't be crossed? To follow where my logic takes me, that depends *entirely* on how the world is designed, and what the story is about. For instance, racism against specific human groups doesn't exist in Thedas, so it makes no sense to give you an option to express that. Racism against elves does exist, so it makes no sense to prevent you fom expressing it in situations where a normal Thedosian might do so.
The story need not go out of its way to give you the opportunity to express anything specific. It's all situational. That's why I had no problem at all with not being able to express, with some of my characters, that they aren't Andrastian in DAO and DA2. It wasn't important for the story. In DAI, it actually is important since you're regarded as a religious figure, so it was important that you could express a religious opinion at some point, and not forced to actually be Andrastian in your mind, even though you were socialized as Andrastian in the human background of DAI and in the human noble origin in DAO.
In short, options that you would reasonably expect to exist if those special sensibilities did not exist should *never* be removed. You are, after all, never forced to use them, and limiting my experience of the story in a way that makes sense from a worldbuilding viewpoint, for your special sensibilities, that I regard as an illegitimate imposition. If you can make a point that these options are gratuitous, that they themselves only exist to pander to specific RL desires, without being anchored in the fictional world, I might accept a removal.
I am quite radical in this. If Thedas were a truly grimdark world, I'd argue for much more extreme unpleasantness than I do here. And that applies even though I have no desire at all to actually play in such a world. It's all about world integrity and verisimilitude. You can choose into which kind of fictional world you project yourself, but once you do, my answer to any complaints about "offensive and offputting" content is always the same: DEAL. WITH. IT.
Gwydden : You may take this as an answer to your post as well.
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529
0
7,815
Nightscrawl
3,266
August 2016
nightscrawl
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Nightscrawl on Feb 23, 2019 16:12:51 GMT
The two encounters you referred to are associated with Lady Landra, Eleanor Cousland's friend that is visiting. The elven woman, Iona, is a servant, yes; she's Landra's lady-in-waiting. The man, Dairren, is Landra's son, so he is also nobility. While it could be said that, in being a servant, Cousland has power over Iona, Cousland is not her direct boss. To be fair, the Warden is still a human noble and Iona an elven servant. The power disparity would have made it dangerous for her to say no even had she wanted to. I mentioned that in my post... "While it could be said that, in being a servant, Cousland has power over Iona, Cousland is not her direct boss. "
...
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∯ Alien Wizard
729
0
Sept 14, 2023 6:08:41 GMT
9,897
Ieldra
4,771
August 2016
ieldra
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
25190
6519
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Post by Ieldra on Feb 23, 2019 16:19:19 GMT
In the Human Noble origin, you can sleep with one of your servant girls if you're male (and with a male servant if you're female). Now I think we can all agree that's somewhat problematic, and when I played this scene I thought "Heck, I'm her boss, maybe I shouldn't do this", but there seemed to be some genuine and mutual attraction, I was curious (as the player), and as a Fereldan noble I wouldn't see such a big problem with it anyway so I went there. Some factual errors here, but I don't fault you if you haven't played DAO in a long while. The two encounters you referred to are associated with Lady Landra, Eleanor Cousland's friend that is visiting. The elven woman, Iona, is a servant, yes; she's Landra's lady-in-waiting. The man, Dairren, is Landra's son, so he is also nobility. While it could be said that, in being a servant, Cousland has power over Iona, Cousland is not her direct boss. In addition, while the public conversation has Landra suggesting a match up based on gender (male for Iona and fem for Dairren), the later sexual encounters are open to both genders. This is one of the few opportunities in any game, outside of the official romances, that the player can express their sexuality, so it's rather refreshing in that regard. My male Cousland was gay and had the encounter with Dairren. I used that in my roleplay. He liked that Dairren was a nerdy bookworm and wanted to get to know him better in a real sense after the forces came back from Ostagar. Alas, it was not to be... I'm not interested in any of the DAO LIs, so I didn't have a LI in the game, just Dairren. I played DAO recently, but I haven't played the HN origin in a very long time (not since 2010), never with a female Warden, and it never occurred to me to try a gay option, so this is new to me. Thanks for the info. Thankfully, it does not change how I would experience this part in a replay in any way
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Apr 23, 2024 23:17:06 GMT
2,724
Gwydden
1,267
November 2016
gwydden
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Gwydden on Feb 23, 2019 16:21:36 GMT
To be fair, the Warden is still a human noble and Iona an elven servant. The power disparity would have made it dangerous for her to say no even had she wanted to. I mentioned that in my post... "While it could be said that, in being a servant, Cousland has power over Iona, Cousland is not her direct boss. "
...
Sorry, should have made my point clearer. I meant to emphasize it because I don't think "Cousland has power over Iona" quite sells the potential ickyness of the situation. It doesn't even matter that much that they're not technically her boss, I'd say. To me it's like if in DA4 we played a magister and got the chance to have sex with a supposedly willing slave. Incidentally, this is another reason why I think Vaughn may have been taking it too far. You don't need someone that over-the-top; Cousland could have been "decent" as nobility goes, but they were still in a position to abuse their status.
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Apr 23, 2024 23:17:06 GMT
2,724
Gwydden
1,267
November 2016
gwydden
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Gwydden on Feb 23, 2019 16:54:24 GMT
Gwydden : You may take this as an answer to your post as well. I'm not fundamentally at odds with you, but it seems to me we disagree in the causes of the problem. Something (else) I like about DA:O is that the origins did a fairly good job of introducing distinct social groups and get the player in their particular mindset. So with Human Noble and Dwarf Noble you feel like you've been taken away from your charmed life, but with Dwarf Commoner and Mage it's like you've hit the jackpot and escaped imprisonment in a miserable one. The other two, well, City Elf is complicated, and Dalish Elf is bad. My point is, tensions between all of these groups are implicit into DA:O because your character has to live in them before they get to become a Grey Warden and therefore an outsider to the whole system, to some extent. You don't need the ability to say outrageously racist things; actions speak louder than words anyway. In Inquisition, it wouldn't make a difference if you were able to say that sort of stuff. The game barely remembers if you're not human most of the time. Whatever its pretensions, it's not a story about social conflict, but about a grown ass man's epic quest to get his ball back.
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ahglock
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: ShinobiKillfist
Posts: 2,867 Likes: 3,483
inherit
9886
0
Apr 24, 2024 17:21:26 GMT
3,483
ahglock
2,867
Feb 21, 2018 17:57:17 GMT
February 2018
ahglock
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
ShinobiKillfist
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Post by ahglock on Feb 23, 2019 17:10:50 GMT
The two encounters you referred to are associated with Lady Landra, Eleanor Cousland's friend that is visiting. The elven woman, Iona, is a servant, yes; she's Landra's lady-in-waiting. The man, Dairren, is Landra's son, so he is also nobility. While it could be said that, in being a servant, Cousland has power over Iona, Cousland is not her direct boss. To be fair, the Warden is still a human noble and Iona an elven servant. The power disparity would have made it dangerous for her to say no even had she wanted to. It’s not like she was a mage and he was her Templar guard.
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∯ Alien Wizard
729
0
Sept 14, 2023 6:08:41 GMT
9,897
Ieldra
4,771
August 2016
ieldra
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
25190
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Post by Ieldra on Feb 23, 2019 17:12:25 GMT
The game barely remembers if you're not human most of the time. Whatever its pretensions, it's not a story about social conflict, but about a grown ass man's epic quest to get his ball back. LOL, I haven't heard anyone summarizing DAI's story that way, but I guess you have a point. DAI's main plot does feel somewhat disconnected, from the point where you acquire Skyhold.
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wright1978
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Prime Posts: 8,116
Prime Likes: 2073
Posts: 1,632 Likes: 2,469
inherit
1492
0
2,469
wright1978
1,632
Sept 8, 2016 12:06:29 GMT
September 2016
wright1978
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
8,116
2073
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Post by wright1978 on Feb 23, 2019 17:36:06 GMT
I mentioned that in my post... "While it could be said that, in being a servant, Cousland has power over Iona, Cousland is not her direct boss. "
...
Sorry, should have made my point clearer. I meant to emphasize it because I don't think "Cousland has power over Iona" quite sells the potential ickyness of the situation. It doesn't even matter that much that they're not technically her boss, I'd say. To me it's like if in DA4 we played a magister and got the chance to have sex with a supposedly willing slave. Incidentally, this is another reason why I think Vaughn may have been taking it too far. You don't need someone that over-the-top; Cousland could have been "decent" as nobility goes, but they were still in a position to abuse their status. I get a little of the potential for ick from the close ties between the families if Iona had of been unwilling, given we don't know how Lady Landra would respond.
Given the setting i think it's a very interesting reasonable story morsel to chew on. I remember her death being very impactful on me for such a minor character.
I don't really see this using status as necessarily abusing status. The elven origin we see the definite abuse of power.
Here it could equally be Iona being interested in his/her status as much as him/her. Was she using the situation because she saw it might be advantageous to form a connection with a future noble who might help her/her daughter's situation.
I wouldn't mind them exploring this further, especially the whole human noble illegimate children angle. I guess we see it through alistair but i'd like to see less of a exceptional example.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 23, 2019 17:45:38 GMT
I was actually more disturbed by the Red Templar than either Hespith or Leandra. Interesting. Can you pinpoint why? Hmm, well compared to Heapith I think it might have to do with the line delivery. Not saying hers was bad, but just the RT’s was done really well and you can hear every bit of pain and anguish in his voice, both from the pain as well as thinking back on what he’d have to sacrifice to ease it in Imsharl’s deal,which made it more disturbing when you considered what was being discussed. As for Leandra, the moment Hawke was an idiot and decided to wait until night to start searching I knew immediately what was going to happen and once we entered the lair I got an even better idea so by the time we reached that scene I was so emotionally detached that it didn’t affect me.!
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Post by caladrius on Feb 23, 2019 18:26:53 GMT
it made me shudder nearly that badly. That scene and implications are HORRIBLE. I mean hell i wonder if the problem is that DA has been sanitized but if weve been decensitized. I thought about that, but....not if Hespith's story still comes across as horrible as it did in 2009. And if Leandra's conversion still strikes you the same way as it did 2011. I think a part of the problem is that DAI's horror is both less personal and less specific. That templar, for instance, just makes hints about what Imshael wanted him to do. No specifics. No idea if it actually was that horrible. And it was just a random red templar, he didn't even have a name. Also, Hespith was driven insane, and that came across well. The only scene in DAI that attempts something similar is Leliana in In Hushed Whispers. I'm not quite sure why it doesn't stick in our minds as well as Hespith's scene. Perhaps it's that Leliana shrugs it off rather casually. I recall I had that same premonition I had in DAO's Deep Roads when I realized what was happening to Leliana, but ..... the story didn't keep it up, and the tone she takes with Dorian doesn't help.
I think, at least for me, the events of Inquisition feeling less personal we’re almost entirely why I wasn’t as invested or emotionally moved. I don’t think the things that happened were really more sanitized or less terrible, but they felt more remote. Like you said, the Templar in that scene wasn’t even named. You can see Fiona and a mage boy you meet like once infected with red lyrium, but the story hadn’t done much to make you care about them. And that whole segment gets undone, anyway. Leliana has lines in that reality about how none of this will seem real to Dorian, but I think most players have the same reaction. You can’t save Hespith or some alternate reality version. What happens to her and the other dwarf women is something horrible that you can’t stop or relegate to a doomed alternate timeline. I don’t think the team was actively trying to “dumb down” the emotional impact or make the world more friendly, but I think their choices did unintentionally make some parts of the game less impactful. I think the Origins in DA:O started out making the Warden feel more personal and the storytelling carried that through, where as the Inquisitor was a blank slate that rarely felt deeply connected to anything and it did hurt the story for me a bit.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 23, 2019 18:36:53 GMT
I thought about that, but....not if Hespith's story still comes across as horrible as it did in 2009. And if Leandra's conversion still strikes you the same way as it did 2011. I think a part of the problem is that DAI's horror is both less personal and less specific. That templar, for instance, just makes hints about what Imshael wanted him to do. No specifics. No idea if it actually was that horrible. And it was just a random red templar, he didn't even have a name. Also, Hespith was driven insane, and that came across well. The only scene in DAI that attempts something similar is Leliana in In Hushed Whispers. I'm not quite sure why it doesn't stick in our minds as well as Hespith's scene. Perhaps it's that Leliana shrugs it off rather casually. I recall I had that same premonition I had in DAO's Deep Roads when I realized what was happening to Leliana, but ..... the story didn't keep it up, and the tone she takes with Dorian doesn't help.
I think, at least for me, the events of Inquisition feeling less personal we’re almost entirely why I wasn’t as invested or emotionally moved. I don’t think the things that happened were really more sanitized or less terrible, but they felt more remote. Like you said, the Templar in that scene wasn’t even named. You can see Fiona and a mage boy you meet like once infected with red lyrium, but the story hadn’t done much to make you care about them. And that whole segment gets undone, anyway. Leliana has lines in that reality about how none of this will seem real to Dorian, but I think most players have the same reaction. You can’t save Hespith or some alternate reality version. What happens to her and the other dwarf women is something horrible that you can’t stop or relegate to a doomed alternate timeline. I don’t think the team was actively trying to “dumb down” the emotional impact or make the world more friendly, but I think their choices did unintentionally make some parts of the game less impactful. I think the Origins in DA:O started out making the Warden feel more personal and the storytelling carried that through, where as the Inquisitor was a blank slate that rarely felt deeply connected to anything and it did hurt the story for me a bit. lack of cutscenes. Also your COMPANIONS were infected with Red Lyrium in that future too. I also have to side with L there. They are people, they suffered and we could have easily shared their fate if all the RTs and the clearly brainwashed Fiona we fight in IYHSB is any indication.
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Post by caladrius on Feb 23, 2019 18:48:19 GMT
I think, at least for me, the events of Inquisition feeling less personal we’re almost entirely why I wasn’t as invested or emotionally moved. I don’t think the things that happened were really more sanitized or less terrible, but they felt more remote. Like you said, the Templar in that scene wasn’t even named. You can see Fiona and a mage boy you meet like once infected with red lyrium, but the story hadn’t done much to make you care about them. And that whole segment gets undone, anyway. Leliana has lines in that reality about how none of this will seem real to Dorian, but I think most players have the same reaction. You can’t save Hespith or some alternate reality version. What happens to her and the other dwarf women is something horrible that you can’t stop or relegate to a doomed alternate timeline. I don’t think the team was actively trying to “dumb down” the emotional impact or make the world more friendly, but I think their choices did unintentionally make some parts of the game less impactful. I think the Origins in DA:O started out making the Warden feel more personal and the storytelling carried that through, where as the Inquisitor was a blank slate that rarely felt deeply connected to anything and it did hurt the story for me a bit. lack of cutscenes. Also your COMPANIONS were infected with Red Lyrium in that future too. I also have to side with L there. They are people, they suffered and we could have easily shared their fate if all the RTs and the clearly brainwashed Fiona we fight in IYHSB is any indication. I don’t think Leliana was necessary wrong, objectively speaking. These people lived and died and were forced to continue on in an undead half-life because we fucked up in that timeline. It is horrible, but selling the doomed timeline narrative to the audience is harder than things that are unavoidable in the final game state. You see your companions infected and Leliana, but then you play the rest of the game seeing them having never suffered those fates, so the lasting impact for most people will be pretty dulled. What are the lasting consequences? Did these people even exist once you went back in time? It’s a paradox that nobody really has the answer to. And that’s on top of the fact that, imo, inquisition does a worse job than the past two games making you feel deeply connected to the inquisitor and their team.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 23, 2019 19:10:38 GMT
lack of cutscenes. Also your COMPANIONS were infected with Red Lyrium in that future too. I also have to side with L there. They are people, they suffered and we could have easily shared their fate if all the RTs and the clearly brainwashed Fiona we fight in IYHSB is any indication. I don’t think Leliana was necessary wrong, objectively speaking. These people lived and died and were forced to continue on in an undead half-life because we fucked up in that timeline. It is horrible, but selling the doomed timeline narrative to the audience is harder than things that are unavoidable in the final game state. You see your companions infected and Leliana, but then you play the rest of the game seeing them having never suffered those fates, so the lasting impact for most people will be pretty dulled. What are the lasting consequences? Did these people even exist once you went back in time? It’s a paradox that nobody really has the answer to. And that’s on top of the fact that, imo, inquisition does a worse job than the past two games making you feel deeply connected to the inquisitor and their team. i don't need those people to exist to feel empathy for them. And depending on which theory of time travel you ascribe too they are still out there, still suffering. All you did was avert that disaster in your timeline. That i just plain disagree with. Inquisition had by far biowares best cast and the inquisitor is a personal close third to Ryder and Hawke for favorite bioware protagonist.
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Post by wright1978 on Feb 23, 2019 19:35:16 GMT
. That i just plain disagree with. Inquisition had by far biowares best cast and the inquisitor is a personal close third to Ryder and Hawke for favorite bioware protagonist.
Can't say i agree on either point. One of my less favourite casts.
Inquisitor probably about beats Ryder but that's not saying much.
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Post by caladrius on Feb 23, 2019 19:52:05 GMT
I don’t think Leliana was necessary wrong, objectively speaking. These people lived and died and were forced to continue on in an undead half-life because we fucked up in that timeline. It is horrible, but selling the doomed timeline narrative to the audience is harder than things that are unavoidable in the final game state. You see your companions infected and Leliana, but then you play the rest of the game seeing them having never suffered those fates, so the lasting impact for most people will be pretty dulled. What are the lasting consequences? Did these people even exist once you went back in time? It’s a paradox that nobody really has the answer to. And that’s on top of the fact that, imo, inquisition does a worse job than the past two games making you feel deeply connected to the inquisitor and their team. i don't need those people to exist to feel empathy for them. And depending on which theory of time travel you ascribe too they are still out there, still suffering. All you did was avert that disaster in your timeline. That i just plain disagree with. Inquisition had by far biowares best cast and the inquisitor is a personal close third to Ryder and Hawke for favorite bioware protagonist. I mean, I don’t think your viewpoint is in any way objectively wrong. The topic is highly subjective. I can understand why some people would be horrified by that quest, but I still think it’s not hard to see how a lot of people won’t hold onto that emotion when it’s erased in heir game state. Origins had individualized backgrounds that fleshed out the Warden and Hawke had his family and was probably the most defined of any bioware character. Some people like blank slates and create their own elaborate headcanon for them, but for a lot of people they’re just harder to connect to and invest in. I’m not saying Inquisition is objectively a bad game with a terrible cast, but I think there were changes that do make it harder for a lot of people to have the depth of emotional investment in the Inquisitor and his team that they had in past games. It’s not that it’s necessarily impossible that anyone had a different reaction.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 23, 2019 20:08:09 GMT
i don't need those people to exist to feel empathy for them. And depending on which theory of time travel you ascribe too they are still out there, still suffering. All you did was avert that disaster in your timeline. That i just plain disagree with. Inquisition had by far biowares best cast and the inquisitor is a personal close third to Ryder and Hawke for favorite bioware protagonist. I mean, I don’t think your viewpoint is in any way objectively wrong. The topic is highly subjective. I can understand why some people would be horrified by that quest, but I still think it’s not hard to see how a lot of people won’t hold onto that emotion when it’s erased in heir game state. Origins had individualized backgrounds that fleshed out the Warden and Hawke had his family and was probably the most defined of any bioware character. Some people like blank slates and create their own elaborate headcanon for them, but for a lot of people they’re just harder to connect to and invest in. I’m not saying Inquisition is objectively a bad game with a terrible cast, but I think there were changes that do make it harder for a lot of people to have the depth of emotional investment in the Inquisitor and his team that they had in past games. It’s not that it’s necessarily impossible that anyone had a different reaction. I'm proof it's not impossible. The Inquisitor is my favorite Bioware protagonist and I was far more invested in and connected to them than the more predetermined ones like Hawke who is my least favorite.
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