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Post by majesticjazz on Feb 24, 2019 22:30:39 GMT
Bioware, a developer long known for their SP RPGs attempted to try something new in a MP focused looter shooter. The jury is out and it is a critical failure. In the coming weeks and months we will know if it was a financial failure.
Ubisoft, a developer known recently with their stealth based games in Ghost Recon, Rainbow 6, Splinter Cell, Watch Dogs and Assassin's Creed decided to do something new and make a SP RPG. Origins was the initial entry and it was a critical/financial hit and Odyssey, the 1st full blown RPG was an even bigger financial hit.
So why was Ubisoft able to successfully infiltrate a new genre while Bioware wasnt?
What are your thoughts?
And mind you, Ubisoft has had their fair share of hate and having the reputation of "downgrading" games. Also there are still many fans who are upset for abandoning Splinter Cell and many fans upset at making the new AC games less stealth and more action RPG.
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Post by trinity0 on Feb 24, 2019 23:22:11 GMT
I play Odyssey at the moment and i really enjoy the game There are also microtransitions but only for cosmetics. So no problem for me.
I don´t know how buggy the game was at Release, but now there are only minor bugs and the game is really good.
So i think Bioware should just stop to Release unfinihed games.
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Post by Frost on Feb 25, 2019 0:22:30 GMT
The looter shooter genre was a poor match for Bioware. Bioware is strong in single-player games, rpgs, characters, and narrative, and these elements don't carry over well (if at all) to looter shooters. Several reviews mentioned how it felt like Bioware was trying to make two separate games. Also, it seems like they had engine issues and/or other problems during development, resulting in a game that took a long time to make but had very little content and lots of bugs. Additionally, many of Bioware's rpg fans had no interest in the looter shooter genre.
For Odyssey Ubisoft built on its strength in making open world games and added rpg elements to it, which was a much less drastic change than what Bioware did. Ubisoft also made a game with a large amount of content. I would guess that, even if Ubisoft lost a few AC fans with the changes in Odyssey, a lot more AC fans played Odyssey than Bioware rpg fans played Anthem.
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Post by Superhik on Feb 25, 2019 0:38:31 GMT
For Ubisoft this was easy transition: their games already had some rpg elements, it was more a matter of investment. I wouldn't be surprised if Anthem was originally something else entirely ( their first concept of Mass Effect?), then switched to this later, after first Destiny. You can see Bioware's slow transition from more classic rpgs,inspired by Pen and Paper games, to cinematic, action oriented: BG->NWN->Kotor->Mass Effect and Dragon Age. But Loot and power gaming was never what their games were about.
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Post by ShadowAngel on Feb 25, 2019 0:52:01 GMT
I think Ubisoft had an easier path because oddyessy shares a lot of similarities with the original AC games bit with newer additions. They were already open world Esq to begin with, they were already a hack and slash melee game and you had lots of junk to collect and such.
Really all they did was refine how you lvl but with more in depth RPG elements, they definitely added more depth to their dialogue and character progression and they keep it simple. I mean Odyssey is hardly ground breaking or innovative but it does bring something different than what their fans are used to. I disliked AC 2 and after as they were to repetitive and just the same thing to me🤷 oddyessy I actually love because of the additions.
Bioware hasn't kept things simple when we compare:
They didn't stick with the unreal engine and they still struggle with FB apparently. They've removed various things or replaced them entirely where as Ubisoft really did keep most of what they had I tact but added onto or refined what they had, there's a few subtractions mind you but not on the scale of what biowares been doing. I mean I legitimately doubt even 75% of the Bioware fandom cares about anthem as it's too different to what they're used to getting, Odyssey will have the argument that it's no longer an AC game because of the newer stories and such but to many it plays the same but better🤷.
I mean it when I think Ubisoft has kept it simple where as biowares done the opposite. New engine? Trying proceedurally generated features? Doing a loot loot shooter progression system when you've no experience whatsoever doing it? Biowares taken the more ambitious steps but those steps are to high for em, Ubisoft takes just enough that it's manageable.
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Post by 10k on Feb 25, 2019 0:59:08 GMT
I really think it has to do with ubisoft ability to continuously add upon their foundation of a game. Whereas BW always try to "reinvent the wheel." Look at both ME and DA series. Each game in the series is vastly different from the previous. BW don't know how to stick to the things they are already good at, and it's finally has caught up to them.
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Post by majesticjazz on Feb 25, 2019 1:11:30 GMT
I really think it has to do with ubisoft ability to continuously add upon their foundation of a game. Whereas BW always try to "reinvent the wheel." Look at both ME and DA series. Each game in the series is vastly different from the previous. BW don't know how to stick to the things they are already good at, and it's finally has caught up to them. I think this is a major point. They seem to be focused on chasing industry trends rather than trying to stick with what they are good at and just adding to it. DA2 - Hack and slash gameplay DAI - Chasing Skyrim success ME2 - Chasing Gears of War success Anthem - Chasing Destiny success SWTOR - Chasing WoW success (but at least with this they stuck to their core principles of story, choices, romances, and companions) With Anthem, I think ME3MP was such a surprise success (and profitable), instead of continuing with the SP game with an added on MP that connects to the story like ME3/DAI/MEA.....they just completely ditched the SP part and went full MP. So the transition I guess between ME3MP to Anthem was missing a lot of stuff.
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Post by theduke on Feb 25, 2019 2:51:56 GMT
Bioware is degrading in quality while other companies are moving ahead of them. It's sad to see really, even games like RDR2 feel more like an RPG than Bioware's titles.
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Post by shaqfu on Feb 25, 2019 2:55:27 GMT
Sadly I just don't think they have the talent anymore. Tech team still can't seem to get a handle on frostbite. Writing team has actually somehow managed to get worse since Andromeda..and I didn't think that was actually possible so bravo! SWTOR continues to show that they lack proper post launch support, rare updates that end up breaking more then they add etc(but hey new shop items!).
All these other games have worked because their teams made them work. Guerrilla games took an FPS engine and made it work amazingly for HZD. Ubisoft made Creed actually work with some nice rpg elements. God of War made a successful shift from a classic hack'n slash. Point is many games have innovated and done well.
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Post by majesticjazz on Feb 25, 2019 3:03:00 GMT
Bioware is degrading in quality while other companies are moving ahead of them. It's sad to see really, even games like RDR2 feel more like an RPG than Bioware's titles. One thing RDR2 did better was the whole companions thingy and developing relationships.
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Post by sgtreed24 on Feb 25, 2019 3:24:32 GMT
I really think it has to do with ubisoft ability to continuously add upon their foundation of a game. Whereas BW always try to "reinvent the wheel." Look at both ME and DA series. Each game in the series is vastly different from the previous. BW don't know how to stick to the things they are already good at, and it's finally has caught up to them. I think this is a major point. They seem to be focused on chasing industry trends rather than trying to stick with what they are good at and just adding to it. DA2 - Hack and slash gameplay DAI - Chasing Skyrim success ME2 - Chasing Gears of War success Anthem - Chasing Destiny success SWTOR - Chasing WoW success (but at least with this they stuck to their core principles of story, choices, romances, and companions) With Anthem, I think ME3MP was such a surprise success (and profitable), instead of continuing with the SP game with an added on MP that connects to the story like ME3/DAI/MEA.....they just completely ditched the SP part and went full MP. So the transition I guess between ME3MP to Anthem was missing a lot of stuff. I agree with everything that's been said so far, but I want to add the big thing that I haven't seen yet which is... WHY has ubisoft been doing what it's doing and WHY has bioware been chasing trends and fucking it up constantly. Because ubisoft isn't owned by someone like EA, they aren't being told to make certain styles of games. Bioware can say all day long til they are blue in the face that they wanted to do something new, but I don't believe that for a second. EA is ALL ABOUT chasing trends because they think that's where the money is. How's that working out for them? Not great. They're basically the studio killer.
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Post by theduke on Feb 25, 2019 6:26:10 GMT
Bioware is degrading in quality while other companies are moving ahead of them. It's sad to see really, even games like RDR2 feel more like an RPG than Bioware's titles. One thing RDR2 did better was the whole companions thingy and developing relationships. Agreed, the NPC's feel alive as well. Something Bioware still hasn't seemed to have been able to grasp.
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Post by OdanUrr on Feb 25, 2019 9:39:16 GMT
To be fair, Ubisoft is also chasing the "games as a service" pot at the end of the rainbow, which is why they turned to the open worlds of Origins and Odyssey. Their model also has a fair bit of grind, and they actually sell you XP boosters or materials that you can buy with real money. As others have said, their transition from the more constrained AC games of the past to something like Origins and Odyssey isn't that hard to explain. Ubisoft had already been creating open worlds with their Far Cry series, after all.
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Post by ericwalla on Feb 25, 2019 10:34:41 GMT
I think we need to add that Ubisoft is firstly a publisher like EA and they have their own developer studios like EA has Dice and Bioware. Also they are one step ahead of EA usually in design choices and ideas, but some aspects most of their hit games are the same with different settings in the recent years (the last two Assassin's Creed, Ghost Recon Wildlands, Watchdogs, Far Crys, even The Divisions). They can create a good open world environment with a good in house engine. But they killed their linear single player games like Splinter Cell, Rainbow Six series (after the success of R6 Siege I don't think they will ever make a new single player Rainbow) or the Prince of Persia (I know the AC is it's spiritual successor but I still miss the Prince). In the other hand EA wants to adapt all of the new gaming trends, like game as a service (Battlefront II and Battlefield V) and open world games and online looter shooters but they can't because they are lagging behind in comparison to other publishers in design decisions, also their in house engine the Frostbite is gorgeous in visuals but it's not suited to handle open worlds and anything else than FPS/TPS, sports and racing games. I also think Anthem was originally a single player game, but in the development cycle other games like Destiny and The Division proved to be a financial success and EA wanted to make a similar game really badly and quickly and it was easier to change an action rpg in development to became a looter shooter than make up something from nothing. This is why I feel that Anthem wants to be two games in a same time but it fails because it can't satisfy completely the core Bioware fanbase who want a good story and rpg elements and the looter shooter fans who want more action less story in the Fort and in the world.
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Post by xrayspex73 on Feb 25, 2019 17:19:58 GMT
If there is one thing that AC:Odyssey's success proves is that people want large singleplayer RPGs. Bioware has forgotten this and Anthem's core is not what most of their fans wanted. EA continues to try and spin the narrative that we don't want singleplayer games and that they are not popular anymore. I say this is grade A baloney. EA just doesn't want to make singleplayer games anymore because they are hard to make and are harder to monetize in the long term. I really miss Bioware...
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Post by monkeylungs on Feb 25, 2019 17:40:48 GMT
Ubisoft is also not technically inept like Bioware.
Every single little town and village (not even mentioning their cities because just unfair) in AC: Odyssey is more alive and convincing than Fort Tarsis. And Fort Tarsis is the only little tiny village in the game of Anthem ... they only had to make one little village well and they can't even do that.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 25, 2019 17:43:43 GMT
If there is one thing that AC:Odyssey's success proves is that people want large singleplayer RPGs. Bioware has forgotten this and Anthem's core is not what most of their fans wanted. EA continues to try and spin the narrative that we don't want singleplayer games and that they are not popular anymore. I say this is grade A baloney. EA just doesn't want to make singleplayer games anymore because they are hard to make and are harder to monetize in the long term. I really miss Bioware... Oh yeah, Bioware's totally forgotten this. That's why they aren't working on a Dragon Age game or telling us that Mass Effect isn't dead. Oh wait. Heaven forbid a game company want to try something new.
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Post by Andrew Lucas on Feb 25, 2019 18:37:19 GMT
I think this is a major point. They seem to be focused on chasing industry trends rather than trying to stick with what they are good at and just adding to it. DA2 - Hack and slash gameplay DAI - Chasing Skyrim success ME2 - Chasing Gears of War success Anthem - Chasing Destiny success SWTOR - Chasing WoW success (but at least with this they stuck to their core principles of story, choices, romances, and companions) With Anthem, I think ME3MP was such a surprise success (and profitable), instead of continuing with the SP game with an added on MP that connects to the story like ME3/DAI/MEA.....they just completely ditched the SP part and went full MP. So the transition I guess between ME3MP to Anthem was missing a lot of stuff. I agree with everything that's been said so far, but I want to add the big thing that I haven't seen yet which is... WHY has ubisoft been doing what it's doing and WHY has bioware been chasing trends and fucking it up constantly. Because ubisoft isn't owned by someone like EA, they aren't being told to make certain styles of games. Bioware can say all day long til they are blue in the face that they wanted to do something new, but I don't believe that for a second. EA is ALL ABOUT chasing trends because they think that's where the money is. How's that working out for them? Not great. They're basically the studio killer. Now explain to us the trend Andromeda chased and how EA was responsible for such chosen trend to backfire on them instead of BioWare's management sucking at making good games.
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Post by xrayspex73 on Feb 25, 2019 20:14:54 GMT
If there is one thing that AC:Odyssey's success proves is that people want large singleplayer RPGs. Bioware has forgotten this and Anthem's core is not what most of their fans wanted. EA continues to try and spin the narrative that we don't want singleplayer games and that they are not popular anymore. I say this is grade A baloney. EA just doesn't want to make singleplayer games anymore because they are hard to make and are harder to monetize in the long term. I really miss Bioware... Oh yeah, Bioware's totally forgotten this. That's why they aren't working on a Dragon Age game or telling us that Mass Effect isn't dead. Oh wait. Heaven forbid a game company want to try something new.
Time will tell what form Dragon Age 4 will take. I imagine DA4 will end up being an online service dependent on EA/Bioware servers to play. I hope I am wrong, but I don't see EA pulling an about-face on their GaaS monetization dreams. I just don't see EA investing a lot of resources to create a big sprawling singleplayer title anymore. I don't think EA cares about "prestige" titles that will garner good critic reviews, they only see the long term monetization potential. They will leave that to devs like CDPR and Obsidian I guess.
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Post by General Mahad on Feb 26, 2019 3:39:58 GMT
I think this is a major point. They seem to be focused on chasing industry trends rather than trying to stick with what they are good at and just adding to it. DA2 - Hack and slash gameplay DAI - Chasing Skyrim success ME2 - Chasing Gears of War success Anthem - Chasing Destiny success SWTOR - Chasing WoW success (but at least with this they stuck to their core principles of story, choices, romances, and companions) With Anthem, I think ME3MP was such a surprise success (and profitable), instead of continuing with the SP game with an added on MP that connects to the story like ME3/DAI/MEA.....they just completely ditched the SP part and went full MP. So the transition I guess between ME3MP to Anthem was missing a lot of stuff. I agree with everything that's been said so far, but I want to add the big thing that I haven't seen yet which is... WHY has ubisoft been doing what it's doing and WHY has bioware been chasing trends and fucking it up constantly. Because ubisoft isn't owned by someone like EA, they aren't being told to make certain styles of games. Bioware can say all day long til they are blue in the face that they wanted to do something new, but I don't believe that for a second. EA is ALL ABOUT chasing trends because they think that's where the money is. How's that working out for them? Not great. They're basically the studio killer. But wasn’t Anthem BioWare’s own idea and EA said sure, why not?
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Post by Fredward on Feb 26, 2019 4:40:09 GMT
Maybe because Assassin's Creed is an iterative game on like number 7 and was going to have a substantial following basically regardless of what it delivered? Anthem is a new IP and a new style of game, can't even draw from the usual Bioware crowd since it's so much not that. Combined with things like the idea of a Destiny clone being fresh at the time it's stale now, releasing a competing game at the same time, having competitors that they copied but have been around longer and learned a lot more and eh. They also aren't the only studio this happened to coughBethesdacough.
Bioware seems hyperaware to criticism/fan response in some ways and completely obtuse in others. Hard to say how much of that to lay at EA's feet though. People liked Citadel so they tried to port that tone into MEA except we didn't have that attachment or feel the levity was "earned" after years of hardship so it fell flat. And with Anthem...
Literally no one: Bioware: OH MY GOD the people need a looter shooter with exactly zero hallmarks of a Bioware game!
Despite EA's skepticism wrt singleplayer the years since Anthem's release have been filled with a lot more critical and commercial SP successes that have burnished the reputation of their studios then there have been scintillatingly lucrative unicorns in the MP field. DA is now Bioware's last IP with a largely unblemished reputation, they can give us what we actually want, and have been in no way coquettish in communicating to them, or they can chase money making fads into irrelevance.
Mind you though we have no way to know how Anthem is actually doing pecuniary wise, reading the tea leaves it looks decidedly meh but who knows maybe it was a smash hit and DA4 is going to be a looter shooter with Tevinter, Qunari and Solas' elves as playable factions. Can't wait to hear EggSupremacist69 spam "We will build a WALL around the qunari and the Tevinters will pay for it!"
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Post by majesticjazz on Mar 4, 2019 12:32:01 GMT
I agree with everything that's been said so far, but I want to add the big thing that I haven't seen yet which is... WHY has ubisoft been doing what it's doing and WHY has bioware been chasing trends and fucking it up constantly. Because ubisoft isn't owned by someone like EA, they aren't being told to make certain styles of games. Bioware can say all day long til they are blue in the face that they wanted to do something new, but I don't believe that for a second. EA is ALL ABOUT chasing trends because they think that's where the money is. How's that working out for them? Not great. They're basically the studio killer. But wasn’t Anthem BioWare’s own idea and EA said sure, why not? According to Bioware, Anthem was their idea. However as Anthem is a failure, it is only a matter of time as devs on the project speak out anonymously and reveal perhaps that it was due to pressure/influence of EA why Anthem was made.
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Post by ioannisdenton on Mar 4, 2019 13:41:55 GMT
Ok let's be Critical. AC Oddyssey has nothing against BioWare Games. It has reused assets and a constant quest grinding with shallow combat and mechanics.
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Post by majesticjazz on Mar 4, 2019 13:52:59 GMT
Ok let's be Critical. AC Oddyssey has nothing against BioWare Games. It has reused assets and a constant quest grinding with shallow combat and mechanics. While that may be true, Odyssey was critically and financially well recieved. That is the crux of this argument, why was Ubisoft able to make the genre move whereas Bioware wasnt? Unlike Odyssey, Anthem is not critically well recieved and most likely didnt do well financially, at least going off of EAs initial expectations.
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mmoblitz
N3
USN-Retired
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: mmoblitz
PSN: NotPC
Posts: 515 Likes: 590
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Jan 20, 2022 10:02:17 GMT
590
mmoblitz
USN-Retired
515
Oct 11, 2016 11:10:36 GMT
October 2016
mmoblitz
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
mmoblitz
NotPC
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Post by mmoblitz on Mar 4, 2019 15:26:21 GMT
The only AC game I ever enjoyed was Black Flag. Picked up Odyssey and I'm loving it. Can do stealth, full on warrior, or go a combination of both. I hope they stick to this formula and refine the story/dialog even more and I will say see ya to Bioware.
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