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Post by SpiritVanguard on Aug 12, 2016 6:22:55 GMT
I remember my first impression of Anders in DA2. He was annoying. I recall visiting him in Act 2's opening, hearing his constant complaining, and wondering, "How can anyone romance this guy?" Several years later, I still feel that way. Sorry. He's the only character I haven't romanced. Him also being an abomination doesn't help. I'm not here to cause trouble. I'm just curious what Andersmancers, who actually really like him, see in him (besides looks) that makes him so desirable a LI? Maybe if you're playing a mage who feels as strongly about the mage freedom, it could work. There's someone for everyone, I guess. Are you asking “Why do you like Anders?” or “Why should I like Anders?” Many of the posters here have already stated why/what they love about Anders, so I’m speaking only for myself here. I liked Anders since DAA. I love everything about him. Good, bad, ugly. All of it. And I would actually place his looks at the bottom of the List of Reasons for Why I Love Anders. He’s sensitive, compassionate, loves cats (serious big plus), is witty with a sense of humor that I share. I’m also in the same boat with him about mages. He’s hapless but relentless. He's sincere, dedicated and passionate in his feelings/views and is a real romantic. I feel his affections for Hawke are the strongest of all the DA2 LIs (not that I'm biased, or anything) and they touched my heart -- quite honestly, he made me fall for him. There is also Anders’ view of sexuality and love which I can really appreciate. However, I know he isn't perfect. He can be selfish, a bit judgey, dangerous and has a one-track mind. But his flaws/failings are what make him who he is -- the character that I adore. Disagreeing with him on mages would be a roadblock as that’s his defining goal. (Even though it’s how he defines himself I don’t, personally, see that as all he is.) It’s still possible to like someone you disagree with, though, like in my case with Fenris, Sebastian and Cullen (who I also love to bits). (I can’t stomach Vivienne in the slightest, however.) Rivalmance exists for a reason. As for him being annoying, that’s of course subjective. I don’t find him annoying so much as I get irritated with the writing itself (namely the gendered-differences they chose to make in his romance.) Did you like Anders in Awakening? Because he’s not wholly different from then. Most if not all of his conversations are about not liking the Circle, mage oppression, hating templars, wanting freedom, cats etc. It’s just that at the time I think he’s resigned himself to being relaxed and apathetic because he’s powerless, so he comes from a position of “It sux, but wat r u gonna do?” By the time of DA2, he’s spent most of his life feeling like an ant among giants, helpless and oppressed, repressing his own feelings because of fear and has finally cut himself loose. Wouldn’t anyone be bitter and resentful about that? (And then of course, there’s Karl. A person he deeply loved who was taken away from him twice by the organization he loathes.) The problem is that he’s finally gained some power but at a cost -- one that he now has to struggle with alongside the already uphill battle of a rebellion. Anders is suffering more than I think any of us can really understand, and I feel for his pain. Regret it, even. I’m personally very fascinated with magic/spirits/Fade stuff so him being an “abomination” isn’t an issue for me in the least (I also love Justice.) The aspects about him being a radical rebel/possessed mage are I think controversial in themselves and are naturally divisive qualities. Is it possible to like Anders but hate what he is or what he’s become? That’s up for players to decide. In the end, though, I would encourage you to try his friendmance even if you don’t like him so that you could see it for yourself (since I kind of doubt me telling you that “OMG Anders is the bestest luv eveerrrr!!!1!” is a compelling argument. ) I also recommend doing both fe/male Hawkes as each are different, if you are so inclined (male-Hawke has a lighter romance, though, if that helps). I’ve gone from hating to loving characters in the past. Sometimes it just takes (a willing) effort. But if a character isn’t your thing, then they just aren’t your thing. I’ve even said here already that I can understand why some don’t like him, beyond the Chantry thing. Anders: I get the feeling you don’t like me, Carver. Carver: I don’t like you. Anders: That’s too bad. Hating someone because they’re a mage is a shameful thing. Carver: I don’t hate you because you’re a mage. I hate you because you won’t shut up about it. I took some time to really think about how to write this, so I hope it helped or answered any questions? And here’s some Anders fan art for fun: Link
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MarilynRobert
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Post by MarilynRobert on Aug 12, 2016 6:38:32 GMT
I remember my first impression of Anders in DA2. He was annoying. I recall visiting him in Act 2's opening, hearing his constant complaining, and wondering, "How can anyone romance this guy?" Several years later, I still feel that way. Sorry. He's the only character I haven't romanced. Him also being an abomination doesn't help. I'm not here to cause trouble. I'm just curious what Andersmancers, who actually really like him, see in him (besides looks) that makes him so desirable a LI? Maybe if you're playing a mage who feels as strongly about the mage freedom, it could work. There's someone for everyone, I guess. Are you asking “Why do you like Anders?” or “Why should I like Anders?” Many of the posters here have already stated why/what they love about Anders, so I’m speaking only for myself here. I liked Anders since DAA. I love everything about him. Good, bad, ugly. All of it. And I would actually place his looks at the bottom of the List of Reasons for Why I Love Anders. He’s sensitive, compassionate, loves cats (serious big plus), is witty with a sense of humor that I share. I’m also in the same boat with him about mages. He’s hapless but relentless. He's sincere, dedicated and passionate in his feelings/views and is real romantic. I feel his affections for Hawke are the strongest of all the DA2 LIs (not that I'm biased, or anything) and they touched my heart -- quite honestly, he made me fall for him. There is also Anders’ view of sexuality and love which I can really appreciate. However, I know he isn't perfect. He can be selfish, spiteful, dangerous and has a one-track mind. But his flaws/failings are what make him who he is -- the character that I adore. Disagreeing with him on mages would be a roadblock as that’s his defining goal. (Even though it’s how he defines himself I don’t, personally, see that as all he is.) It’s still possible to like someone you disagree with, though, like in my case with Fenris, Sebastian and Cullen (who I also love to bits). (I can’t stomach Vivienne in the slightest, however.) Rivalmance exists for a reason. As for him being annoying, that’s of course subjective. I don’t find him annoying so much as I get irritated with the writing itself (namely the gendered-differences they chose to make in his romance.) Did you like Anders in Awakening? Because he’s not wholly different from then. Most if not all of his conversations are about not liking the Circle, mage oppression, hating templars, wanting freedom, cats etc. It’s just that at the time I think he’s resigned himself to being relaxed and apathetic because he’s powerless, so he comes from a position of “It sux, but wat r u gonna do?” By the time of DA2, he’s spent most of his life feeling like an ant among giants, helpless and oppressed, repressing his own feelings because of fear and has finally cut himself loose. Wouldn’t anyone be bitter and resentful about that? (And then of course, there’s Karl. A person he deeply loved who was taken away from him twice by the organization he loathes.) The problem is that he’s finally gained some power but at a disadvantage -- one that he now has to struggle with alongside the already uphill battle of a rebellion. Anders is suffering more than I think any of us can really understand, and I feel for his pain. Regret it, even. I’m personally very fascinated with magic/spirits/Fade stuff so him being an “abomination” isn’t an issue for me in the least (I also love Justice.) The aspects about him being a radical rebel/possessed mage are I think controversial in themselves and are naturally divisive qualities. Is it possible to like Anders but hate what he is or what he’s become? That’s up for players to decide. In the end, though, I would encourage you to try his romance even if you don’t like him so that you could see it for yourself (since I kind of doubt me telling you that “OMG Anders is the bestest luv eveerrrr!!!1!” is a compelling argument. ) I also recommend doing both fe/male Hawkes as each are different, if you are so inclined (male-Hawke has a lighter romance, though, if that helps). I’ve gone from hating to loving characters in the past. Sometimes it just takes (a willing) effort. But if a character isn’t your thing, then they just aren’t your thing. I’ve even said here already that I can understand why some don’t like him, beyond the Chantry thing. Anders: I get the feeling you don’t like me, Carver. Carver: I don’t like you. Anders: That’s too bad. Hating someone because they’re a mage is a shameful thing. Carver: I don’t hate you because you’re a mage. I hate you because you won’t shut up about it.I took some time to really think about how to write this, so I hope it helped or answered any questions? snip You did a great job of writing this and then you even added a conversation between Anders and Carver. I love Carver and have him in my party as much as possible so I get to hear Carver and Anders and I enjoy that so much. BTW, I think I like DA2 Anders more than DAA Anders because he seems too flippant in DAA. But that's because his situation is really sad. He's not had a very good life, he definitely feels oppressed, not wanted or appreciated, he's been in solitary confinement for a long time...I think he's given up in a way. Wanting to help Karl gives him a goal, while helping all mages is the bigger version of the goal. When we get to DA2, Anders is working very hard to help those who have no one else to help them. The first part of that game has more Anders and then things get sadder to me because he's more Justice or the corrupted version of both of them. It makes me sad that he's just standing upstairs and seems such a shell of the person he was. His one goal is to blow up the chantry, when he deems the time to be right. He's tried to change things in other ways and hit a brick wall of inaction.
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Post by SpiritVanguard on Aug 12, 2016 8:29:09 GMT
... Anders: I get the feeling you don’t like me, Carver. Carver: I don’t like you. Anders: That’s too bad. Hating someone because they’re a mage is a shameful thing. Carver: I don’t hate you because you’re a mage. I hate you because you won’t shut up about it.I took some time to really think about how to write this, so I hope it helped or answered any questions? snip You did a great job of writing this and then you even added a conversation between Anders and Carver. I love Carver and have him in my party as much as possible so I get to hear Carver and Anders and I enjoy that so much. BTW, I think I like DA2 Anders more than DAA Anders because he seems too flippant in DAA. But that's because his situation is really sad. He's not had a very good life, he definitely feels oppressed, not wanted or appreciated, he's been in solitary confinement for a long time...I think he's given up in a way. Wanting to help Karl gives him a goal, while helping all mages is the bigger version of the goal. When we get to DA2, Anders is working very hard to help those who have no one else to help them. The first part of that game has more Anders and then things get sadder to me because he's more Justice or the corrupted version of both of them. It makes me sad that he's just standing upstairs and seems such a shell of the person he was. His one goal is to blow up the chantry, when he deems the time to be right. He's tried to change things in other ways and hit a brick wall of inaction. Thank you! I didn’t know if I was explaining my fondness, justifying it or trying to recruit. Have you seen the Carver Thread? I love Carver too, and I try to bring him along as much as I can, so I’ve heard a lot of his banter with Anders. The one I used is one of my favorites, and I'm sure there are those that agree with him. I don’t think I favor an Anders, though. I like him all around. He’s just more (obviously) heart-wrenching in DA2. He's been through and forced to deal with a lot of emotional trauma. I’m still amazed he didn’t go insane in solitary -- though I guess that’s thanks to Mister Wigums (RIP). He really does seem like he’s given up in DAA, or almost like he was too defeated to even try in the first place. He deflected everything with humor, buried himself in it. That's one of the reasons his banter with Justice is so great. But after the events that lead him to us in DA2 the "novelty" for that wore off. Fun and games are over, time to get to work.
Karl is heart-breaking. Playing that quest after knowing what they were... hurts so much. Trying to help Karl brought Anders to Krikwall, but Meredith (and Hawke, yes ) kept him there. I wonder how things would've gone if we could save non-Tranquil Karl... I still wish I could save him. Every time I play I want it to end differently. All things considered I don't blame Anders for the way he feels, and Vengeance makes even more sense and is even more upsetting. There's only so much a person can do peacefully when they're met with resistance at every turn... I really wish I could've been a part of the Mage Underground with him, helped him more. Link
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Post by SpiritVanguard on Aug 12, 2016 9:09:04 GMT
@spirit vanguard It is the last person you slept with. I did a Fenris to Anders, and he commented about Fenris...reloaded. slept with someone else. (isabella I think) then re did Anders. so he sniped about her instead, same game. And I was like... I slept with Fenris, Mr monogamous, and Isabella?! Is who you are worried about? Thanks, it's as a I thought. I don't know if I see it as sniping, though. He just wants to make sure he's not wasting his time and that, you know, Hawke has genuine feelings for him. ...Except that can be backpedaled after sleeping with him. Never done it myself. It's just cruel. Anders had his share of sleeping around, so he shouldn't judge too much.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 12, 2016 13:01:48 GMT
So...hey everyone. First post. I found this in the BSN Anders thread. I've never rally posted on that forum except for a handful of times because the atmosphere was just too venomous. The first thread I ever read on there was a solid 50 or 51 pages of hating Anders. Not just hating Anders even, sadistic, petty glee at saying that they spared Anders only to force him to fight withth Templars and murde ra bunch of innocent mages. Yeah...I wanted nothing to do with any forum that could give rise to such behavior. So, if you don't mind, a bit of backstory. I post on a lot of forums, am a big video game fan and RPG fan for most of my life. But until recently, I mainly stuck with JRPG's. I grew up with Final Fantasy and a lesser known series called Xenosaga and that was what captured me. But near the end of 2014, I decided to see what all this BioWare love was about. (lots of my friends love DA, ME, KOTOR, etc.) Naturally, by this point, I had heard all about Anders the absolute worst character ever conceived by man and Dragon Age II, the unholy spawn of Hitler and Satan. Now, whenever I hear opinions like this I just kind of go "eh.....sure, whatever you say." But eventually idecided I wanted to be able to give my own opinion, to play Dragon Age II and judge for myself how good or bad it was. And it was pretty good. I like it just as much as Origins but they each excel in different areas. As for Anders, my first run I played a Male Mage who Friendmanced him. I also played Origins as a Male Mage and have always been anti-Circle. (to my great shame this made me be a jerk to Wynne who is really sweet and I love her now) So, armed with this opiion and future knowledge of what he'd do, I never had any conflicts with Anders. He never had to force me into anything. I saw no trace of this alleged abuse or blackmail. I just saw a man who wanted to free his enslaved people from a crappy, probably false religion that punishes them for existing. (also hated The Chantry ever since Leliana told me their God wanted a booty call then left everyone to suffer when he got his. At least Leliana's unorthodox beliefs make sense since in her view, The Maker actually still helps people, assuming He exists anyway) It wouldn't be until much later that I played the DLC like Awakening. And I gotta say.. I prefer DA2 Anders. The people who say DA2 Anders was some horrible mischaracterization, that he bears no resemblance to Awakening Anders, are just flat-out wrong. DA2 Anders tells you right at the end of Tranquility that merging with Justice gave him the ability to fight back against all the wrongs he's seen in his life. And what does Awakening Anders do? Whine about all the wrongs he's seen in his life. He hates the Circle and Templars and wants mages to live better lives but he was too much of a coward to do anything about it. Think A New Hope Han Solo - not a bad person when it comes down to it but too selfish to think about sticking his neck out for others. But Justice gave Anders the backbone he needed to finally act on all his feelings and try to make some changes. So...in conclusion, Friendmancing Anders feels the most "right" to me in DA2. Him and Merrill are love. I like all the DA2 romances but there's something special about these two. Maybe it's the cause they are devoted to? Fenris also has a cause in a way but it's so personal that it's hard for me to really get sucked in by it. Hawke has never been a slave. Anders an dMerrill have grand objectives - of restoring their race or toppling a huge system of rule - that it's easy for my Hawke to be sucked in by their zeal. Really nice post . The Anders reveal was spoiled for me as well, but I went into the game not knowing what to expect (I did play DA:A beforehand and loved him in it but I heard so many different things about DAII). I didnt know which characters I would like or romance, bur Anders, from the get go, was so passionate and caring I couldn't help but fall for him. He just wanted to help people and never expected anything in return (proven by the first scene we see him in, using magic to heal past exhaustion). His past broke my heart and knowing you could talk him out of the deed just made the feels so much worse. I don't support what he did, but he doesn't fall into a shade of black or white for me. Ugh and how he waits there, expecting Hawke to execute him just aghh.. noo. I couldn't bare to do it, I've never even been able to YouTube the scene (sorry Sebastian, you're outta here Lol) I think I just fall for the "debatable" characters, hence my Solas/Anders attractions. Welcome! I agree with you. I liked Awakening-Anders (I played the game in order), but DA2-Anders is more complex character, and still likeable. Friendship romance the one way with Anders, the rival are sad, and I can agree with that the poor mages send to Kirkwall's terrible Circle. Absolutely wrong decision (to me).
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Sah291
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Post by Sah291 on Aug 12, 2016 14:34:05 GMT
I don't really know why Anders became my favorite, since I remember I planned to romance either Fenris or Isabella on my first playthrough. Until I got to the clinic for the first time and he glowed blue and demanded to know why Hawke was threatening his place of salvation and healing, lol. I did like him in DAA, Anders and Justice both, but my Warden would have flirted with and romanced Nate if she could have. My poor Amell, she ended up forever alone anyway, I think with only Oghren left around for a best friend...Oghren and Amell, they were kind of the anti Hawke and Varric in my game. Anyway, Anders. The last game I had just played through before DA2 was the Mass Effect Trilogy, where I had romanced Garrus with FemShep. I think I saw in Hawke/Anders some similar themes and elements that I liked. Garrus and Anders both struggle with this justice vs. vengeance dichotomy and the drive to protect the helpless who can't defend themselves. And trouble (and explosions) seem to follow both Shepard and Hawke around wherever they go, and they are both badass warriors which a knack for surviving impossible odds, even while suffering a great deal of personal loss. I think spirit vanguard just summed up nicely a lot of the other reasons why I like Anders.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 12, 2016 16:06:56 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2016 16:48:10 GMT
I remember my first impression of Anders in DA2. He was annoying. I recall visiting him in Act 2's opening, hearing his constant complaining, and wondering, "How can anyone romance this guy?" Several years later, I still feel that way. Sorry. He's the only character I haven't romanced. Him also being an abomination doesn't help. I'm not here to cause trouble. I'm just curious what Andersmancers, who actually really like him, see in him (besides looks) that makes him so desirable a LI? Maybe if you're playing a mage who feels as strongly about the mage freedom, it could work. There's someone for everyone, I guess. Are you asking “Why do you like Anders?” or “Why should I like Anders?” Many of the posters here have already stated why/what they love about Anders, so I’m speaking only for myself here. I liked Anders since DAA. I love everything about him. Good, bad, ugly. All of it. And I would actually place his looks at the bottom of the List of Reasons for Why I Love Anders. He’s sensitive, compassionate, loves cats (serious big plus), is witty with a sense of humor that I share. I’m also in the same boat with him about mages. He’s hapless but relentless. He's sincere, dedicated and passionate in his feelings/views and is a real romantic. I feel his affections for Hawke are the strongest of all the DA2 LIs (not that I'm biased, or anything) and they touched my heart -- quite honestly, he made me fall for him. There is also Anders’ view of sexuality and love which I can really appreciate. However, I know he isn't perfect. He can be selfish, spiteful, dangerous and has a one-track mind. But his flaws/failings are what make him who he is -- the character that I adore. Disagreeing with him on mages would be a roadblock as that’s his defining goal. (Even though it’s how he defines himself I don’t, personally, see that as all he is.) It’s still possible to like someone you disagree with, though, like in my case with Fenris, Sebastian and Cullen (who I also love to bits). (I can’t stomach Vivienne in the slightest, however.) Rivalmance exists for a reason. As for him being annoying, that’s of course subjective. I don’t find him annoying so much as I get irritated with the writing itself (namely the gendered-differences they chose to make in his romance.) Did you like Anders in Awakening? Because he’s not wholly different from then. Most if not all of his conversations are about not liking the Circle, mage oppression, hating templars, wanting freedom, cats etc. It’s just that at the time I think he’s resigned himself to being relaxed and apathetic because he’s powerless, so he comes from a position of “It sux, but wat r u gonna do?” By the time of DA2, he’s spent most of his life feeling like an ant among giants, helpless and oppressed, repressing his own feelings because of fear and has finally cut himself loose. Wouldn’t anyone be bitter and resentful about that? (And then of course, there’s Karl. A person he deeply loved who was taken away from him twice by the organization he loathes.) The problem is that he’s finally gained some power but at a cost -- one that he now has to struggle with alongside the already uphill battle of a rebellion. Anders is suffering more than I think any of us can really understand, and I feel for his pain. Regret it, even. I’m personally very fascinated with magic/spirits/Fade stuff so him being an “abomination” isn’t an issue for me in the least (I also love Justice.) The aspects about him being a radical rebel/possessed mage are I think controversial in themselves and are naturally divisive qualities. Is it possible to like Anders but hate what he is or what he’s become? That’s up for players to decide. In the end, though, I would encourage you to try his friendmance even if you don’t like him so that you could see it for yourself (since I kind of doubt me telling you that “OMG Anders is the bestest luv eveerrrr!!!1!” is a compelling argument. ) I also recommend doing both fe/male Hawkes as each are different, if you are so inclined (male-Hawke has a lighter romance, though, if that helps). I’ve gone from hating to loving characters in the past. Sometimes it just takes (a willing) effort. But if a character isn’t your thing, then they just aren’t your thing. I’ve even said here already that I can understand why some don’t like him, beyond the Chantry thing. Anders: I get the feeling you don’t like me, Carver. Carver: I don’t like you. Anders: That’s too bad. Hating someone because they’re a mage is a shameful thing. Carver: I don’t hate you because you’re a mage. I hate you because you won’t shut up about it. I took some time to really think about how to write this, so I hope it helped or answered any questions? And here’s some Anders fan art for fun: LinkThanks for the reply. I can understand why Anders it the way he is, same as Carver, but that doesn't make me like him. I don't like Carver either. The things you find attractive about Anders I find very irritating. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I felt in the middle about Anders in DA:A. It's not entirely fair to compare them because Justice-Anders is a different person from regular Anders. He's really a merger of the injustices Anders cared about coupled with Justice's endless determination in the pursuit of justice. Hence, justice-Anders is obsessed with mage injustice in particular to the point that he never shuts up about it. "I am the cause of mages" really felt accurate for him IMO, as even his romance scenes go into mage oppression. What's funny is a part of me disliked Anders less after he blew up the Chantry; simply because he was no longer just complaining about the Chantry and actually did something about it ...however arguably misguided he might have been. I have been tempted to do an Anders friendmance with a Hawke who felt as strongly as he did, even being ok with his terrorism, but the idea is really hard to stomach. It doesn't help that all DA2 romances are terrible. This includes having him move in with you after one night together or ending it; no middle-ground.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 12, 2016 16:49:26 GMT
I remember my first impression of Anders in DA2. He was annoying. I recall visiting him in Act 2's opening, hearing his constant complaining, and wondering, "How can anyone romance this guy?" Several years later, I still feel that way. Sorry. He's the only character I haven't romanced. Him also being an abomination doesn't help. I'm not here to cause trouble. I'm just curious what Andersmancers, who actually really like him, see in him (besides looks) that makes him so desirable a LI? Maybe if you're playing a mage who feels as strongly about the mage freedom, it could work. There's someone for everyone, I guess. Enjoy this thread then, I hope, you will see more nuanced. I found Anders a natural choice for my Hawke(s – ofc, not all...), because I really agree with his opinion, I like my freedom, and I like enjoy my life freely. And I hate if innocent people can't do it, because of their birth/political expression/etc. (Yes, I know, this is only a game, but I like playing a protagonist, whi I can like, who I can agree. Of course, I played character, with whom I can't agree, but only rarely – it's good for see an other points of view.) I do not consider him an abomination. Anders (and Justice too) a good person, and loyal: he was able to move in Kirkwall for his ex-boyfriend, to save her from the Circle, just because he got bad news from him. He revealed his abilities to help to the poor people of Darktown, thereby he undertake big threat. He complaining because he feel that he corrupted Justice, and he not anymore able to serve the truth, and he afraid of losing control over himself, and hurt people rather than help them. He's romance are very good (especially with male Hawke, because of Karl's story), and yes, it's hard, because he will lie to Hawke, and many people can't forgive him for it. I can understand his reasons, then I can imagine a happy end with him.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 12, 2016 17:12:29 GMT
Are you asking “Why do you like Anders?” or “Why should I like Anders?” Many of the posters here have already stated why/what they love about Anders, so I’m speaking only for myself here. I liked Anders since DAA. I love everything about him. Good, bad, ugly. All of it. And I would actually place his looks at the bottom of the List of Reasons for Why I Love Anders. He’s sensitive, compassionate, loves cats (serious big plus), is witty with a sense of humor that I share. I’m also in the same boat with him about mages. He’s hapless but relentless. He's sincere, dedicated and passionate in his feelings/views and is a real romantic. I feel his affections for Hawke are the strongest of all the DA2 LIs (not that I'm biased, or anything) and they touched my heart -- quite honestly, he made me fall for him. There is also Anders’ view of sexuality and love which I can really appreciate. However, I know he isn't perfect. He can be selfish, spiteful, dangerous and has a one-track mind. But his flaws/failings are what make him who he is -- the character that I adore. Disagreeing with him on mages would be a roadblock as that’s his defining goal. (Even though it’s how he defines himself I don’t, personally, see that as all he is.) It’s still possible to like someone you disagree with, though, like in my case with Fenris, Sebastian and Cullen (who I also love to bits). (I can’t stomach Vivienne in the slightest, however.) Rivalmance exists for a reason. As for him being annoying, that’s of course subjective. I don’t find him annoying so much as I get irritated with the writing itself (namely the gendered-differences they chose to make in his romance.) Did you like Anders in Awakening? Because he’s not wholly different from then. Most if not all of his conversations are about not liking the Circle, mage oppression, hating templars, wanting freedom, cats etc. It’s just that at the time I think he’s resigned himself to being relaxed and apathetic because he’s powerless, so he comes from a position of “It sux, but wat r u gonna do?” By the time of DA2, he’s spent most of his life feeling like an ant among giants, helpless and oppressed, repressing his own feelings because of fear and has finally cut himself loose. Wouldn’t anyone be bitter and resentful about that? (And then of course, there’s Karl. A person he deeply loved who was taken away from him twice by the organization he loathes.) The problem is that he’s finally gained some power but at a cost -- one that he now has to struggle with alongside the already uphill battle of a rebellion. Anders is suffering more than I think any of us can really understand, and I feel for his pain. Regret it, even. I’m personally very fascinated with magic/spirits/Fade stuff so him being an “abomination” isn’t an issue for me in the least (I also love Justice.) The aspects about him being a radical rebel/possessed mage are I think controversial in themselves and are naturally divisive qualities. Is it possible to like Anders but hate what he is or what he’s become? That’s up for players to decide. In the end, though, I would encourage you to try his friendmance even if you don’t like him so that you could see it for yourself (since I kind of doubt me telling you that “OMG Anders is the bestest luv eveerrrr!!!1!” is a compelling argument. ) I also recommend doing both fe/male Hawkes as each are different, if you are so inclined (male-Hawke has a lighter romance, though, if that helps). I’ve gone from hating to loving characters in the past. Sometimes it just takes (a willing) effort. But if a character isn’t your thing, then they just aren’t your thing. I’ve even said here already that I can understand why some don’t like him, beyond the Chantry thing. Anders: I get the feeling you don’t like me, Carver. Carver: I don’t like you. Anders: That’s too bad. Hating someone because they’re a mage is a shameful thing. Carver: I don’t hate you because you’re a mage. I hate you because you won’t shut up about it. I took some time to really think about how to write this, so I hope it helped or answered any questions? And here’s some Anders fan art for fun: LinkThanks for the reply. I can understand why Anders it the way he is, same as Carver, but that doesn't make me like him. I don't like Carver either. The things you find attractive about Anders I find very irritating. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I felt in the middle about Anders in DA:A. It's not entirely fair to compare them because Justice-Anders is a different person from regular Anders. He's really a merger of the injustices Anders cared about coupled with Justice's endless determination in the pursuit of justice. Hence, justice-Anders is obsessed with mage injustice in particular to the point that he never shuts up about it. "I am the cause of mages" really felt accurate for him IMO, as even his romance scenes go into mage oppression. What's funny is a part of me disliked Anders less after he blew up the Chantry; simply because he was no longer just complaining about the Chantry and actually did something about it ...however arguably misguided he might have been. I have been tempted to do an Anders friendmance with a Hawke who felt as strongly as he did, even being ok with his terrorism, but the idea is really hard to stomach. It doesn't help that all DA2 romances are terrible. This includes having him move in with you after one night together or ending it; no middle-ground. I like Carver too, and I can understand him. Templar Carver my favorite sibling. (Oops! Terrorism again... how I hate this!) Kirkwall's Chantry failed, Elthina failed. She turn a blind eye over Meredith's excesses (she knew, what happen in the Circle, but she had not done anything against Meredith). Yes, Anders' action have some innocent victim, but no one of your companions are a virgin choirboy/girl... What about Isabela? She had runaway with Koslun, and bloody fight launched becouse of that (yes, included innocent wictims). Still, Isabela never launched such heated debates than Anders. What is the reason of this fact?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2016 17:17:47 GMT
Thanks for the reply. I can understand why Anders it the way he is, same as Carver, but that doesn't make me like him. I don't like Carver either. The things you find attractive about Anders I find very irritating. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I felt in the middle about Anders in DA:A. It's not entirely fair to compare them because Justice-Anders is a different person from regular Anders. He's really a merger of the injustices Anders cared about coupled with Justice's endless determination in the pursuit of justice. Hence, justice-Anders is obsessed with mage injustice in particular to the point that he never shuts up about it. "I am the cause of mages" really felt accurate for him IMO, as even his romance scenes go into mage oppression. What's funny is a part of me disliked Anders less after he blew up the Chantry; simply because he was no longer just complaining about the Chantry and actually did something about it ...however arguably misguided he might have been. I have been tempted to do an Anders friendmance with a Hawke who felt as strongly as he did, even being ok with his terrorism, but the idea is really hard to stomach. It doesn't help that all DA2 romances are terrible. This includes having him move in with you after one night together or ending it; no middle-ground. I like Carver too, and I can understand him. Templar Carver my favorite sibling. (Oops! Terrorism again... how I hate this!) Kirkwall's Chantry failed, Elthina failed. She turn a blind eye over Meredith's excesses (she knew, what happen in the Circle, but she had not done anything against Meredith). Yes, Anders' action have some innocent victim, but no one of your companions are a virgin choirboy/girl... What about Isabela? She had runaway with Koslun, and bloody fight launched becouse of that (yes, included innocent wictims). Still, Isabela never launched such heated debates than Anders. What is the reason of this fact? Funny. I want to punch templar-Carver in the face for being a man-child and a hypocrite. Eh. I'm not sure where you're going with your terrorism argument... I never claimed Isabela was a good person.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 12, 2016 17:29:45 GMT
I like Carver too, and I can understand him. Templar Carver my favorite sibling. (Oops! Terrorism again... how I hate this!) Kirkwall's Chantry failed, Elthina failed. She turn a blind eye over Meredith's excesses (she knew, what happen in the Circle, but she had not done anything against Meredith). Yes, Anders' action have some innocent victim, but no one of your companions are a virgin choirboy/girl... What about Isabela? She had runaway with Koslun, and bloody fight launched becouse of that (yes, included innocent wictims). Still, Isabela never launched such heated debates than Anders. What is the reason of this fact? Funny. I want to punch templar-Carver in the face for being a man-child and a hypocrite. Eh. I'm not sure where you're going with your terrorism argument... I never claimed Isabela was a good person. Carver just a defiant and naive boy (and his brother left him home). And Malcolm has a templar friend, who helped him so much. Carver named after this Templar. I understand this little templar bastard... This was his decision. Later he wrote, that he disappointed, and happy because of Bethany never was in the Circle. (Yet almost nowhere to be seen how many innocent victims was obviously self-centered act of Isabela ... no porblem, I like Isabela too, she is a good character, especially when she come back. I like thtat scene!)
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 12, 2016 19:23:55 GMT
(Oops! Terrorism again... how I hate this!) Kirkwall's Chantry failed, Elthina failed. She turn a blind eye over Meredith's excesses (she knew, what happen in the Circle, but she had not done anything against Meredith). Yes, Anders' action have some innocent victim, but no one of your companions are a virgin choirboy/girl... What about Isabela? She had runaway with Koslun, and bloody fight launched becouse of that (yes, included innocent wictims). Still, Isabela never launched such heated debates than Anders. What is the reason of this fact? Terrorism is going to be a term that is used because what Anders did is a textbook example of terrorism which is defined as "the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes". While I understand today it is a buzzword, the truth is terrorism is merely a form of warfare, and has been around for thousands of years. However, since the term is a buzzword for some people if you really do not want the term to be used how about saying which term you would prefer to be used to refer to what he did in Act 3?
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Post by Catilina on Aug 12, 2016 19:33:04 GMT
(Oops! Terrorism again... how I hate this!) Kirkwall's Chantry failed, Elthina failed. She turn a blind eye over Meredith's excesses (she knew, what happen in the Circle, but she had not done anything against Meredith). Yes, Anders' action have some innocent victim, but no one of your companions are a virgin choirboy/girl... What about Isabela? She had runaway with Koslun, and bloody fight launched becouse of that (yes, included innocent wictims). Still, Isabela never launched such heated debates than Anders. What is the reason of this fact? Terrorism is going to be a term that is used because what Anders did is a textbook example of terrorism which is defined as "the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes". While I understand today it is a buzzword, the truth is terrorism is merely a form of warfare, and has been around for thousands of years. However, since the term is a buzzword for some people if you really do not want the term to be used how about saying which term you would prefer to be used to refer to what he did in Act 3? You're right, but today is much more serious using this word, so I want to keep away from this thread, I hope, you can understand. We can use the rebellion/revolution, it is also quite bloody and brutal can be, and also require so much innocent victim.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 12, 2016 19:42:20 GMT
Terrorism is going to be a term that is used because what Anders did is a textbook example of terrorism which is defined as "the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes". While I understand today it is a buzzword, the truth is terrorism is merely a form of warfare, and has been around for thousands of years. However, since the term is a buzzword for some people if you really do not want the term to be used how about saying which term you would prefer to be used to refer to what he did in Act 3? You're right, but today is much more serious using this word, so I want to keep away from this thread, I hope, you can understand. We can use the rebellion/revolution, it is also quite bloody and brutal can be, and also require so much innocent victim. Oh, I understand perfectly and I had no plans to use it in this thread because of that. I was just saying it is understandable for people to use that term since it fits Anders' actions very well. As for replacement terms, those work since like how there are people for and against what he did there are people who are for and against such things and history is full of good and bad examples. There are other terms more concretely negative as well for those who vehemently disagree with his actions, like say massacre.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 12, 2016 19:58:57 GMT
You're right, but today is much more serious using this word, so I want to keep away from this thread, I hope, you can understand. We can use the rebellion/revolution, it is also quite bloody and brutal can be, and also require so much innocent victim. Oh, I understand perfectly and I had no plans to use it in this thread because of that. I was just saying it is understandable for people to use that term since it fits Anders' actions very well. As for replacement terms, those work since like how there are people for and against what he did there are people who are for and against such things and history is full of good and bad examples. There are other terms more concretely negative as well for those who vehemently disagree with his actions, like say massacre. Thank you. I understand, that much people shocked when he blew up the Chantry (I think this was the plan), but I did not expect so much hatred. I dont understand. True, I also don't understand, that someone is strongly opposed the freedom of the Mages (freedom of the any group of people – except criminals... NOT possible/potential criminals...).
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Post by SpiritVanguard on Aug 12, 2016 22:12:09 GMT
Thanks for the reply. I can understand why Anders it the way he is, same as Carver, but that doesn't make me like him. I don't like Carver either. The things you find attractive about Anders I find very irritating. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I felt in the middle about Anders in DA:A. It's not entirely fair to compare them because Justice-Anders is a different person from regular Anders. He's really a merger of the injustices Anders cared about coupled with Justice's endless determination in the pursuit of justice. Hence, justice-Anders is obsessed with mage injustice in particular to the point that he never shuts up about it. "I am the cause of mages" really felt accurate for him IMO, as even his romance scenes go into mage oppression. What's funny is a part of me disliked Anders less after he blew up the Chantry; simply because he was no longer just complaining about the Chantry and actually did something about it ...however arguably misguided he might have been. I have been tempted to do an Anders friendmance with a Hawke who felt as strongly as he did, even being ok with his terrorism, but the idea is really hard to stomach. It doesn't help that all DA2 romances are terrible. This includes having him move in with you after one night together or ending it; no middle-ground. Spread Anders Love. That's why I'm here. ;D When it comes to understanding Anders, that isn't what makes me like him, it's that I accept it about him. That baggage just doesn't affect me -- though it rarely does for any character. I suppose that I can find something genuinely relatable in him certainly helps. Everyone always compares DAA and DA2 Anders, saying how he's completely different, but I don't see it that way. He griped as much about mages then but had repressed anger that Justice brought out along with all the that... sort of "self-righteousness" in DA2. No he isn't exactly the same person, but there were signs of him being similar before Justice, is all I'm saying. I was just tossing that Carver bit out there because I thought it might mirror some of the frustrations people have with Anders -- "blah oppression blah freedom blah." It didn't really have anything to do with him specifically. (Though I do adore Carver as well...) This is part of the game I don't like. Anders talks about how he's been helping the Mage Underground but we don't get to see any of this activity until he snaps on Alrik. ...And then nothing more is seen or heard about the Underground again until act 3 when "yeah, Meredith totally crushed it" which drives Anders to be more desperate and angry. He has been fighting all along and even spoke with Elthina, we just never see it. So he comes off as all talk and no walk. You can friendmance him without approving of his end actions and still let him live. I think Hawke is allowed to be mad about it while still loving him. And I forgot I mention like Catilina did that you only learn about Karl if Hawke is male. I know I'm kind of pushing it, it's just that I think if you romance him with a female you might only find him more annoying? But I don't know, maybe not. The moving-in thing, I'm just gonna copy/paste from BSN: As much as I love Anders, I have to admit that his "moving in with you" can feel a little forced onto the player, but I don't think it was intended that way. He mentions it in a way that's like "If you really love me, then let me live in your house house with you" and Hawke isn't given much in the way of response. I don't mind him shacking up with me -- I mean, he does basically live in the sewers and is under constant threat from the templars. He's asking after Hawke's intentions, and how far they'd be willing to go to be with him. It just had a strange delivery... --I see it as Anders not wanting to waste anyone's time and having very strong feelings, so the relationship moves fast if reciprocated. I think the romance just kind of suffers from the game's time jumps. ...Wait. I know what all this is really about: you're a dog person, aren't you?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2016 23:50:51 GMT
Terrorism is going to be a term that is used because what Anders did is a textbook example of terrorism which is defined as "the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes". While I understand today it is a buzzword, the truth is terrorism is merely a form of warfare, and has been around for thousands of years. However, since the term is a buzzword for some people if you really do not want the term to be used how about saying which term you would prefer to be used to refer to what he did in Act 3? You're right, but today is much more serious using this word, so I want to keep away from this thread, I hope, you can understand. We can use the rebellion/revolution, it is also quite bloody and brutal can be, and also require so much innocent victim. You're taking this too seriously if you get troubled over a fictional character being called a terrorist when that is exactly what he is. It's far more accurate wording than rebellion or revolution anyway, as terrorism usually refers to violence committed against regular people to send a message, in the wide pursuit of a political goal, etc. That's exactly what Anders did. He killed hundreds of civilians in the hopes of achieving a revolution, and it miraculously (and conveniently off-screen) worked. I would have preferred the writers to follow the "show, don't tell" philosophy for how all the Circles everywhere decided to rise up instead of just going about their business, but whatever.
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Post by MarilynRobert on Aug 13, 2016 1:13:59 GMT
snip The moving-in thing, I'm just gonna copy/paste from BSN: As much as I love Anders, I have to admit that his "moving in with you" can feel a little forced onto the player, but I don't think it was intended that way. He mentions it in a way that's like "If you really love me, then let me live in your house house with you" and Hawke isn't given much in the way of response. I don't mind him shacking up with me -- I mean, he does basically live in the sewers and is under constant threat from the templars. He's asking after Hawke's intentions, and how far they'd be willing to go to be with him. It just had a strange delivery... --I see it as Anders not wanting to waste anyone's time and having very strong feelings, so the relationship moves fast if reciprocated. I think the romance just kind of suffers from the game's time jumps. ...Wait. I know what all this is really about: you're a dog person, aren't you? I do think the story is too skimpy so things seem too rushed or not thought out. The fictional reality of Ander's life is that he's living in that room where he treats patients. He's sleeping on one of those treatment tables or the ground. Templars know where he is and he's not safe. Getting to live with Hawke represents some security and safety in his life for the part his day that he is there. Anders has never had a place to be that he "belonged" since he did not want to be in the Circle and he didn't feel like he fit in with the Wardens. So I see Anders moving in with Hawke as less shacking up than more of a place to belong.
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Post by SpiritVanguard on Aug 13, 2016 1:35:57 GMT
snip The moving-in thing, I'm just gonna copy/paste from BSN: As much as I love Anders, I have to admit that his "moving in with you" can feel a little forced onto the player, but I don't think it was intended that way. He mentions it in a way that's like "If you really love me, then let me live in your house house with you" and Hawke isn't given much in the way of response. I don't mind him shacking up with me -- I mean, he does basically live in the sewers and is under constant threat from the templars. He's asking after Hawke's intentions, and how far they'd be willing to go to be with him. It just had a strange delivery... --I see it as Anders not wanting to waste anyone's time and having very strong feelings, so the relationship moves fast if reciprocated. I think the romance just kind of suffers from the game's time jumps. ...Wait. I know what all this is really about: you're a dog person, aren't you? I do think the story is to skimpy so things seem too rushed or not thought out. The fictional reality of Ander's life is that he's living in that room where he treats patients. He's sleeping on one of those treatment tables or the ground. Templars know where he is and he's not safe. Getting to live with Hawke represents some security and safety in his life for the part his day that he is there. Anders has never had a place to be that he "belonged" since he did not want to be in the Circle and he didn't feel like he fit in with the Wardens. So I see Anders moving in with Hawke as less shacking up than more of a place to belong. I agree. I admit that in the first few seconds it seemed sudden but it makes a lot of sense. Never mind his horrible living conditions, Anders is asking a lot more than if they can live together. As usual, Anders is saying more than what he speaks. It's just that time-skip beforehand that kills some of the buildup for the relationship because we don't see it. "I spent that last 3 years laying awake every night aching for you." ...Oh my. Did Hawke not notice or what? And I just like the phrase "shacking up."
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Post by phoray on Aug 13, 2016 3:05:47 GMT
I do think the story is to skimpy so things seem too rushed or not thought out. The fictional reality of Ander's life is that he's living in that room where he treats patients. He's sleeping on one of those treatment tables or the ground. Templars know where he is and he's not safe. Getting to live with Hawke represents some security and safety in his life for the part his day that he is there. Anders has never had a place to be that he "belonged" since he did not want to be in the Circle and he didn't feel like he fit in with the Wardens. So I see Anders moving in with Hawke as less shacking up than more of a place to belong. I agree. I admit that in the first few seconds it seemed sudden but it makes a lot of sense. Never mind his horrible living conditions, Anders is asking a lot more than if they can live together. As usual, Anders is saying more than what he speaks. It's just that time-skip beforehand that kills some of the buildup for the relationship because we don't see it. "I spent that last 3 years laying awake every night aching for you." ...Oh my. Did Hawke not notice or what? And I just like the phrase "shacking up." If you pick the sarcastic answer to his love speech, "I'm hungry" (troll face) he actually asks to live with you and explains his whole reasoning for it. It's very much a "I'm sorry to ask this, but it's getting really dangerous at my place." Speech. If yo u just say I love you back, his next line is almost as if he'd said just that, but you didn't get to hear it.
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Post by SpiritVanguard on Aug 13, 2016 3:11:44 GMT
I usually pick the funny options, but never that one. I still choose to believe think my original understanding of it stands...
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Post by phoray on Aug 13, 2016 3:35:27 GMT
I usually pick the funny options, but never that one. I still choose to believe think my original understanding of it stands... I was playing a 99.9% sarcastic Hawke. She just couldn't help herself. Also, I was curious anyway. I actually prefer that line. The way Female Hawke says I love you is a bit extreme. "I love you and want to be with you until the day we die." Whoa. That's a marriage line, where's the legal documents? I like that in Inquisition, they give you more than one way to express your love. Most specifically, Cullen. Three ways to say you care in the post sex scene, and only one of then includes the actual words "I love you."
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Post by SpiritVanguard on Aug 13, 2016 4:03:47 GMT
I was tempted to pick it first time because I favor those lines, but I'm too much of a softie. I don't have a problem with the I Love You line. IIRC, Hawke only follows up Anders with the "until we die" part, so it's not all out there at once. If I want to tell a character I love them, I want it to be clear. It's probably one of the few times I don't prefer a joke option. My Hawke(s) loved Anders and wanted him to know -- he's already said it himself quite a few times at this point, too. And considering how the story ends... it becomes more than just a sweet expression. My Hawkes are as committed to him as he is to them and I think that option strongly conveys that.
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Post by SpiritVanguard on Aug 13, 2016 4:53:09 GMT
phoray and @spirit vanguard, great posts and analysis. For me, I unfortunately didn't play DA2 until long after it had been released, and I was spoiled. I didn't know how or when it was going to happen, but I knew going in that Anders was going to do something to the Chantry, so I did not get to experience the same element of shock and surprise as a player. I wonder what my reaction would have been in that case. But what really did get to me most was not so much the blackmail or lying part, but what he actually says to a friendmanced Hawke. He says something along the lines of "We were wrong, what I did with Justice was unnatural, it should never have happened..." Really Anders? After all we've gone through, to say a thing like that? That sounds like something a Templar would say. I thought, perhaps he doesn't mean it, and was testing Hawke to see how he/she really feels about Justice. It's quite possible considering how confident he sounds about he and justice "being one" in the aftermath. But at the time, it feels like such a stab in back.
That said, because of all that... I found it more cathartic and satisfying to spare Anders in the end, despite his ridiculous logic, he has himself trapped by his own rigid principles (just as Isabela argues will happen), but that doesn't make him right about everything. Anders (or maybe it was Justice) really doesn't understand love the same way Hawke does, I don't think. When Hawke tell hims love is the most important thing, he appears to assume that means keeping their relationship and staying in Kirkwall at the mansion, etc. But to me, Hawke means it more in the way Leandra did-- that love is more important than money (and selfish concerns like that), and this was the reason Hawke was willing to give up everything to defend the innocent mages in the end. (Finally getting to this.) Yes! I felt the exact same way about that. I had been nothing but supportive the entire time and then he's like "nah, big mistake." I was even still reluctant to agree with him, but I, being ever supportive, agreed to help him anyway. I also hate that he uses "unnatural." It's such a... derisive, repulsive word to me. (There are also some... real life parallels that I don't really want to touch on.) I did wonder if he really thought that, even in some small way, or was just testing Hawke. Given his state I understand why he'd send out some mixed signals because he's not certain of himself either. There's also that line earlier in the game, after Alrik I think, when he can make a kind of throw-away admission of templars being right. There's the obvious manipulation of it, of course. If it sounds like Anders wants to do something that isn't what he's actually doing, then it's and effective lie. At least until Hawke can call him on it. When he said that there were more important things than their love, I argued against it thinking in more of larger scale. "Make love, not war" kind of thing... While he's seeing it as in the grand scheme of everything, their single love is insignificant. I get where he's coming from, but it's a strange thought when his fate will come down to Hawke. When the smaller people are involved in the "bigger picture" that argument doesn't seem to hold much weight? So, yeah. I agree on that too. I think Anders' history with love hasn't given him the brightest or most hopeful view on the subject or it's potential...
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