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Post by Catilina on Dec 24, 2017 17:47:13 GMT
Merry Christmas, and happy holidays, guys! ![<3](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/QXApMTzDC0eVIZnTaInc.png) source
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Post by Rascoth on Dec 26, 2017 14:53:49 GMT
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Post by Catilina on Jan 4, 2018 23:23:33 GMT
I suppose this already was here... (but if not, then WHY not?) source
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Morrigan's Husband
*Searching for the Cure*
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Post by TheHeroOfFerelden on Jan 29, 2018 20:16:19 GMT
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Post by davesin on Feb 3, 2018 13:38:32 GMT
So, provided that Anders lives after Inquisition (and he's not demoted to hermit growing vegetables and stuff, which he probably is, but anyway...) and he's still with Justice, how do you ladies and gents think he will react to changes in southern Thedas? Divine Leliana is certainly his wet dream, but in case Vivienne or Cassandra get elected, will he accept it? Or will he count how much of sulphur, nitroglycerin and magic sparks are just enough to blow up Grand Cathedral I mean set Justice free?
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Post by Catilina on Feb 3, 2018 14:53:12 GMT
So, provided that Anders lives after Inquisition (and he's not demoted to hermit growing vegetables and stuff, which he probably is, but anyway...) and he's still with Justice, how do you ladies and gents think he will react to changes in southern Thedas? Divine Leliana is certainly his wet dream, but in case Vivienne or Cassandra get elected, will he accept it? Or will he count how much of sulphur, nitroglycerin and magic sparks are just enough to blow up Grand Cathedral I mean set Justice free? I don't think, he expected an instant change. He said: "Ten years, hundred years from now..." And I'm sure, while he would disdain Vivienne, wouldn't blow up anything. The change, what for he worked for, started in every case. Of course, Leliana's the best. I think it surpasses all his expectations. But the position of the mages changes with Cassandra and Vivienne as well, even inside the Circle, and neither Cassandra nor Vivienne didn't success to shepherd back every mage into the Circle and the College of Enchanters working independently. Vivienne fought against it for a while, later "generously" let them work. He did, what he does, the rebellion started. He continues his fight after Kirkwall too, we know it (at least if Hawke's rivalry didn't crush him), but what for he fought (for a chance to the mages to fight for themselves), is fulfilled at the moment. Probably he helps/fights in lesser cases. Absolutely not excluded, he becomes a hermit, it depends on the circumstances: if he still fears from Justice, and from becoming a raging abomination, I'm sure, he left the inhabited area. It is the possible fate for a rivalled Anders, especially if Hawke forced him to fight against the Mages. Probably Justice will be free only when Anders dead. I don't know, he even trust, he can separate Justice without harming him. I still think, he feels responsible for him. Perhaps, the Avvars. And perhaps Justice's presence slows down the Calling (or eliminate that slowly... but we know, he heard Corypheus false Calling, just as the other Wardens) – or the Taint ruins Justice as well. (Gaider was vague about this two possibility.) One thing is sure: If Hawke still with him, he's not that sad hermit. I guess, he has some nightmares, but if they're together, they to overcome it. (Again: many things depend on the romance type and Hawke.)
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Post by davesin on Feb 3, 2018 15:34:28 GMT
Could be. Anders' control over Justice is probably huge factor how this plays out. Justice/Vengence doesn't like doing nothing (on rivarly path, he tells Hawke they are turning Anders to sloth). I like to think Anders is going to stop hiding and face Sebastian. That could be good material for some semi-canon book or comicbook. It's a loose end that should be resolved during Last Straw. I never get why there's no option to let Sebastian do whatever he thinks it's best (preferably tied to his Friendship/Rivarly score) or kill Sebastian in case you want to keep Anders alive, similarly to Loghain/Alistair decision. This just makes a character look stupid.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 3, 2018 16:31:25 GMT
Could be. Anders' control over Justice is probably huge factor how this plays out. Justice/Vengence doesn't like doing nothing (on rivarly path, he tells Hawke they are turning Anders to sloth). I like to think Anders is going to stop hiding and face Sebastian. That could be good material for some semi-canon book or comicbook. It's a loose end that should be resolved during Last Straw. I never get why there's no option to let Sebastian do whatever he thinks it's best (preferably tied to his Friendship/Rivarly score) or kill Sebastian in case you want to keep Anders alive, similarly to Loghain/Alistair decision. This just makes a character look stupid. Oh, almost forget Sebastian. I don't think, he even knows about Sebastian's plan: to annex Kirkwall. When Sebastian threatened Hawke he didn't have any army. Later Anders's busy with his rebellion. Anders doesn't hide: he continues the fight after Kirkwall, with Hawke or without, with more or less success. Later, if he knows about: I don't know, what he would do, this is an interesting question. Of course seems the right thing if Anders just lets Sebastian kill him, or arrest him... but surely this is right? Sebastian uses his army to attack the city for pure personal revenge. This seems not some righteous thing... so: for the sake of righteousness, Anders rather needs to kill Sebastian. Only Sebastian. But we know: Sebastian didn't want to fight against Hawke... why would he want to fight against Anders? There are Kirkwall and many innocent people again, and Sebastian's army. Sebastian would able to stop his army if Anders let Sebastian kill him? Perhaps. But what about if don't? Anders would kill again many innocents (Sebastian's every soldier's innocent), for Kirkwall? *** Or if he hiding (become a hermit), he doesn't want to fight anymore, but in this case probably he also simply doesn't know, what happens in Kirkwall. In a distant cave? How? If he would, know, he probably would let Sebastian kill him instead Kirkwall. Because he wants to die. Sadly, probably Sebastian wouldn't be satisfied with his death. *** In fact, Anders is not responsible for Sebastian's acts. Sebastian wants to annex Kirkwall, "because of Anders and Hawke", but Anders and Hawke NOT in Kirkwall. Sebastian knows it, or at least Sebastian has tools to obtain the information. But he doesn't make such a thing, only go for Kirkwall. a bleeding city, when there is chaos everywhere. And for it, requests the help of the Inquisition, when the Inquisition has a more important task. Again: I don't think, this for some fair retribution. This is not really against Anders or Hawke. This is just blind vengeance. *** Hawke got a choice: keep Anders alive, or kill him. Yes, it would an interesting choice to let Sebastian kill Anders, or prevent Sebastian to kill Anders (and kill Sebastian), but Sebastian didn't want to face Hawke. Anyway, it is an interesting material for a comic book, fanfic anything...
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Post by Catilina on Feb 3, 2018 16:44:51 GMT
Could be. Anders' control over Justice is probably huge factor how this plays out. Justice/Vengence doesn't like doing nothing (on rivarly path, he tells Hawke they are turning Anders to sloth). I like to think Anders is going to stop hiding and face Sebastian. That could be good material for some semi-canon book or comicbook. It's a loose end that should be resolved during Last Straw. I never get why there's no option to let Sebastian do whatever he thinks it's best (preferably tied to his Friendship/Rivarly score) or kill Sebastian in case you want to keep Anders alive, similarly to Loghain/Alistair decision. This just makes a character look stupid. About Justice and the control: When Justice comes out in the rivalry scene, seems harmless: yells one, to threaten Hawke, and retreats. Really not Anders cried for it inside? Hawke's arguments in this scene are really stupid... Okay, now seriously: IF Justice became the Vengeance demon, Anders already would a raging abomination, I suppose. Or he's very strong if can restrain his demon and hiding in this chaos. You said: Vengeance's not very patient. When the battle of Kirkwall ended, Anders/Justice was calm. Hawke spoke about a more or less stable man (depends). So: according to me, there no more bomb or something similar. If he wants help, he will fight. And watch the situation. He can help, there are many things, where he able to intervene without immediately blow up the grand cathedral with Vivienne/Cassandra. This is not the time of the violence. If Justice still Justice, as I think. Just remember: Anders also speak about Elthina after Alric death, that, maybe he needs to talk with her, maybe she's more reasonable when he thought... Justice not against the peaceful solutions.
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Post by davesin on Feb 3, 2018 18:42:53 GMT
Could be. Anders' control over Justice is probably huge factor how this plays out. Justice/Vengence doesn't like doing nothing (on rivarly path, he tells Hawke they are turning Anders to sloth). I like to think Anders is going to stop hiding and face Sebastian. That could be good material for some semi-canon book or comicbook. It's a loose end that should be resolved during Last Straw. I never get why there's no option to let Sebastian do whatever he thinks it's best (preferably tied to his Friendship/Rivarly score) or kill Sebastian in case you want to keep Anders alive, similarly to Loghain/Alistair decision. This just makes a character look stupid. About Justice and the control: When Justice comes out in the rivalry scene, seems harmless: yells one, to threaten Hawke, and retreats. Really not Anders cried for it inside? Hawke's arguments in this scene are really stupid... Okay, now seriously: IF Justice became the Vengeance demon, Anders already would a raging abomination, I suppose. Or he's very strong if can restrain his demon and hiding in this chaos. You said: Vengeance's not very patient. When the battle of Kirkwall ended, Anders/Justice was calm. Hawke spoke about a more or less stable man (depends). So: according to me, there no more bomb or something similar. If he wants help, he will fight. And watch the situation. He can help, there are many things, where he able to intervene without immediately blow up the grand cathedral with Vivienne/Cassandra. This is not the time of the violence. If Justice still Justice, as I think. Just remember: Anders also speak about Elthina after Alric death, that, maybe he needs to talk with her, maybe she's more reasonable when he thought... Justice not against the peaceful solutions. I don't think Vengeance is the only one who might be impatient. Justice doesn't consider possible consequences of his actions as well - he goes for clear goal that will result on bringing justice to Thedas. From his point of view, killing the immediate danger or tyrant is the best solution. Of course, there's this bit of dialogue on friendship path (paraphrased): Justice and I are one now. I wonder if that means that Anders and Justice are on some next level of mage-spirit relationship (compared to Wynne, who seems to be in more symbiotic relationship with her spirit) and Anders is even more commited to the idea of justice and Justice is more cunning and less straightforward about his goals. In that case, I can imagine he might be helping his cause in more subtle way. Rival!Anders is probably still fighting with Justice and it's standard "spirit or demon" scenario. I wouldn't be surprised if Anders commited suicide.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 3, 2018 20:00:52 GMT
About Justice and the control: When Justice comes out in the rivalry scene, seems harmless: yells one, to threaten Hawke, and retreats. Really not Anders cried for it inside? Hawke's arguments in this scene are really stupid... Okay, now seriously: IF Justice became the Vengeance demon, Anders already would a raging abomination, I suppose. Or he's very strong if can restrain his demon and hiding in this chaos. You said: Vengeance's not very patient. When the battle of Kirkwall ended, Anders/Justice was calm. Hawke spoke about a more or less stable man (depends). So: according to me, there no more bomb or something similar. If he wants help, he will fight. And watch the situation. He can help, there are many things, where he able to intervene without immediately blow up the grand cathedral with Vivienne/Cassandra. This is not the time of the violence. If Justice still Justice, as I think. Just remember: Anders also speak about Elthina after Alric death, that, maybe he needs to talk with her, maybe she's more reasonable when he thought... Justice not against the peaceful solutions. I don't think Vengeance is the only one who might be impatient. Justice doesn't consider possible consequences of his actions as well - he goes for clear goal that will result on bringing justice to Thedas. From his point of view, killing the immediate danger or tyrant is the best solution. Of course, there's this bit of dialogue on friendship path (paraphrased): Justice and I are one now. I wonder if that means that Anders and Justice are on some next level of mage-spirit relationship (compared to Wynne, who seems to be in more symbiotic relationship with her spirit) and Anders is even more commited to the idea of justice and Justice is more cunning and less straightforward about his goals. In that case, I can imagine he might be helping his cause in more subtle way. Rival!Anders is probably still fighting with Justice and it's standard "spirit or demon" scenario. I wouldn't be surprised if Anders committed suicide. Yes, Justice against the inactivity, but this not means blow up everything. Among Justice's tools available the persuasion. About that Velanna killed people: Velanna: I am simply curious to hear what you think would be suitable. Justice: Teach them. Show these humans what they are so carelessly destroying. Velanna: And if they do not listen? Justice: Then you have done what you could. Velanna: It's... worth thinking about. Justice's a patient spirit. Seven years manifestos etc before the violence. Of course, there's nothing excluded. Killing a tyrant is a solution. But I still think he gives a chance. Vivienne's not Meredith. Vivienne's the worst, but still a change: shows it possible. Anyway, it's an interesting question. I don't have Vivienne, but Cassandra also not ideal... who knows, the Tranquility-problem is an important point. And the Circles life, the privacy etc. I don't think, he would stop his work if he's not ruined. ___ Justice and Anders already merged at the Act1 too (Karl-quest: "...he's gone now, he's a part of me [...] I feel his thought is my own. Not even the greatest scholar could tell you, where I end and he begins."), but of course, perhaps, the process is not over yet. Rival Anders didn't commit suicide, yet: at least in Inquisition, when Hawke appeared, s/he left a living Anders, but of course, this is very likely, if he fought against the mages. And he also rivals with Justice in this case: he doesn't trust in Justice anymore, he inclined to consider Justice demon, so, he actually hates himself... but depends on the late circumstances. And we know only about romanced Anders. What happened with Anders, if alive, but not in romance? We don't know. But in the pre-battle scene, he says goodbye.
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Post by Sah291 on Feb 6, 2018 14:47:30 GMT
So, provided that Anders lives after Inquisition (and he's not demoted to hermit growing vegetables and stuff, which he probably is, but anyway...) and he's still with Justice, how do you ladies and gents think he will react to changes in southern Thedas? Divine Leliana is certainly his wet dream, but in case Vivienne or Cassandra get elected, will he accept it? Or will he count how much of sulphur, nitroglycerin and magic sparks are just enough to blow up Grand Cathedral I mean set Justice free? I think, while who ends up Divine is important, it matters more who the Inquisitor was and what happened to the rebel mages. If the Bright Hand ends up getting created, it doesn't really matter if Viv or Cass rebuild the Circles, they are no longer the only authority on magic anymore. Plus if the Inquisitor sided with the rebel mages, they have a good chance gaining some respect and legitimacy...and more allies. Worst case would be getting sold off to Tevinter, and I think Anders would have been horrified at the state of the rebellion, post Conclave explosion. The conclave was destroyed, so no chance for negotiations there. Fiona's group failed and was about to be sold off into slavery, so no hope there. And the rest of the rebel mages fighting out in the field in Hinterlands were completely useless...so I don't think that's what Anders really hoped for. As far as what Anders does during and after the events of DAI, that really depends who Hawke was, whether they are still traveling together, and if Hawke survives. Anders can be anything from dead, to crazy and alone in a cave somewhere, to sane and actively fighting for the rebellion at Hawke's side. We know Hawke and Anders continued to aid the mage rebellion, if they were still together after DA2. If the Inquisior allied with the rebel mages, then Anders likely supports Hawke's mission to help them out with Cory. If Hawke survived the Abyss and gets sent with the Wardens, like mine did, then I imagine Anders follows and they get caught up in Warden business for a while after that. At some point they stop to help Varric out with his rebuilding effort, so maybe that helps repair their damaged friendship somewhat. Then who knows. Anders still has to deal with the fact he is a Warden and has the blight. Maybe they go after The Warden, who is researching the cure. Either Justice helps slow down the corruption and can possibly help out with that, or he needs a cure if he is going to survive. Hawke would encourage him to be cured if possible, not leave him to his fate with the calling. And Anders is still a skilled spirit healer, who enjoys healing people.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 9, 2018 1:54:04 GMT
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Post by phoray on Feb 9, 2018 16:45:55 GMT
It occurred to me that Anders thought the circle a prison.
but letting Justice possess him was trading one prison for another. Except now he's not even free in his head.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 9, 2018 17:04:46 GMT
It occurred to me that Anders thought the circle a prison. but letting Justice possess him was trading one prison for another. Except now he's not even free in his head. According to him, Justice also shackled in his head. Anders knew (at least believed, he knew), what he took, for the others. This was HIS choice, the Circle was not his choice. This is a significant difference, I guess.
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Post by phoray on Feb 9, 2018 17:08:13 GMT
Justice also shackled in his head. Justice knew what he was in for after inhabitating a freshly dead body. Other memories were pushed on him, and he struggled. Anders only knew from conversation, didn't understand. On rivalry path, he woes the cost. your Distraction GMV post made me think of this, don't blame me! by the way, Catilina , I was on a sort of two month break and I missed arguing with you. ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/RebJidSPcxyF0U0Rr0uW.png)
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Post by Catilina on Feb 9, 2018 18:01:41 GMT
Justice also shackled in his head. Justice knew what he was in for after inhabitating a freshly dead body. Other memories were pushed on him, and he struggled. Anders only knew from conversation, didn't understand. On rivalry path, he woes the cost. your Distraction GMV post made me think of this, don't blame me! by the way, Catilina , I was on a sort of two month break and I missed arguing with you. ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/iTZJiDWJRVPSMpUdD0Lg.png) Welcome back! I don't blame you. I'm glad, you here again! (By the way, that's a good video, I love it) Justice was also unprepared in this viewpoint: he got Kristoff's memory, but Kristoff's body doesn't have any independent will... of course, but Anders has. Kristoff's emotions are old and dead, Anders' emotions are fresh and living. And Anders, knew, that he will never alone in his head anymore, and Justice will influence him, this was the cause, he offered his body. What he didn't calculate: their different view, and the spirits' nature. What he knew about the spirits nature, he knew only from the conversation, and from his studies in the Circle (what knowledge's probably a bit more than many, since he is a spirit healer, but still not so much). So: this is mutual, I suppose. And I still think: Anders knew much hardness of the merging, and he was prepared to the risks and that he will not same anymore: he even though, he will not able to love anymore and he must concentrate on a goal, without distraction and selflessness. He was prepared to give up a part of him for the success. This is why I said: he knew what he wanted, and this was his choice, but the Circle's not. You know, what's my viewpoint about the rivalry, and this not changed, no matter how much I see the videos. The point is: rivalled Anders and Justice's different than friendshipped Anders and Justice. Much more unsure. Sometimes, for example in the Fade, and when he lost his control, and Justice takes control over him (Dissent, Short Story), he feels, he just a helpless guest in his body, yes. And that's terrifying, just as the power, what he got with Justice.
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Post by Sah291 on Feb 9, 2018 20:28:15 GMT
It occurred to me that Anders thought the circle a prison. but letting Justice possess him was trading one prison for another. Except now he's not even free in his head. I guess that depends whether Justice and Anders are two totally separate entities/personalities. From Anders perspective, I feel like he hadn't really dealt with that question yet. He struggles with his identity through the game. But if you encouraged the separate path, he does come to see it that way, and concludes it's better to die. Still, I think he probably saw it as a risk and a sacrifice he was willing to make in order to help other mages. So yeah he traded one kind of suffering for another. I don't really see them as totally separate though, and Anders is able to come to terms with it ultimately.
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Post by phoray on Feb 9, 2018 20:35:54 GMT
I guess that depends whether Justice and Anders are two totally separate entities/personalities. Ella shows they are very distinct people. additionall, the Fade. Other symptoms: his memory lapses, his current judgement of Isabella when they happily screwed in Fereldan, his complete appearance of exhaustion and unhappiness due to the Obsessive compulsions caused by an inner spirit when we know his default is happy, rested, mellow, jokester from Awakening. I don't really see them as totally separate though, and Anders is able to come to terms with it ultimately. what evidence of that is there Canon wise? Picture of a one armed hermit Anders comes to mind.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 9, 2018 21:05:48 GMT
I guess that depends whether Justice and Anders are two totally separate entities/personalities. Ella shows they are very distinct people. additionall, the Fade. Other symptoms: his memory lapses, his current judgement of Isabella when they happily screwed in Fereldan, his complete appearance of exhaustion and unhappiness due to the Obsessive compulsions caused by an inner spirit when we know his default is happy, rested, mellow, jokester from Awakening. I don't really see them as totally separate though, and Anders is able to come to terms with it ultimately. what evidence of that is there Canon wise? Picture of a one armed hermit Anders comes to mind. Of course, Justice's nature has influence in Anders' nature when they merged. He became more judgemental. This is a weird dichotomy. On the other hand, he still himself. Awakening Anders was not happy, rester and mellow. After one-year solitary confinement with only one (imaginary) friend, a possessed cat..., this is a bit hard. He just tries to survive and become happy. He was a jokester, yes, you know my concept about this was his survival tool. And, at the moment, he really relieved: he was almost free. True, it had a cost: the Taint, and a joining another Order. He hates orders. But at the moment, the Taint and being a Warden seems a good deal. So, he has reason to be happier. Before the joining, he wasn't happy. When the Warden met him, he was angry. When Rylock wants him, he was very bitter and sad, he thought he lost, again. He was a jokester, but I also remember his anger, when he spoke about the mages with Justice. He didn't speak about anything else. And he even believed: his anger corrupted Justice. Can you imagine that anger? Awakening Anders was who offered his body to Justice because he wanted a rebellion, and thought he not able to fight alone, because this is too difficult, but he wanted to fight. That one-handed sad hermit, according to me, is rivalled Anders. And if this picture would prove, that Justice's not a demon, but Anders believes, he is, this is the reason he lives in a cave, far from everything, where he can't hurt anyone. If Justice would be a demon, Anders would be a raging abomination – or Anders' extremely strong. But Hawke, who love him, never would let him be a sad hermit. But that picture is not canonically Anders. Nobody confirmed it, but not excluded.
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Post by Sah291 on Feb 9, 2018 21:14:55 GMT
I guess that depends whether Justice and Anders are two totally separate entities/personalities. Ella shows they are very distinct people. additionall, the Fade. Other symptoms: his memory lapses, his current judgement of Isabella when they happily screwed in Fereldan, his complete appearance of exhaustion and unhappiness due to the Obsessive compulsions caused by an inner spirit when we know his default is happy, rested, mellow, jokester from Awakening. I don't really see them as totally separate though, and Anders is able to come to terms with it ultimately. what evidence of that is there Canon wise? Picture of a one armed hermit Anders comes to mind. Admittedly I have a hard time not seeing it through a psychological lens, so that may be just my interpretation. But the original Justice is for all intents and purposes, gone, and he reflects Anders own memories and desires, post merge. Anders says as much, that he experiences Justice's thoughts as his own. So Justice exists as part of Anders' subconcious, and is able to take control in times of extreme emotional stress or fear. He is also able to take control in the Fade, which is where people go when they dream. This is also my interpretation. But, on the frienship path, in his speech during Hawke's judgement at the end, he says himself that he and Justice are one. Beyond that, I think he just comes to grasp the idea that justice and vengeance are two sides of a coin. He is able to accept that reality and take responsibility for it. On the rival path, he is unable to reconcile these two opposing ideas, and he is driven crazy by the cognitive dissonance.
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