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Post by davesin on Feb 12, 2018 22:01:20 GMT
The game certainly seems to want to point out the connection between faith and apathy, and how faith can sometimes have a destructive side too when it turns into apathy. I think that's the symbolism of the sloth demon you meet in the Fade, that wanted to take over Kirkwall. That's a good idea. Yes, many symbols there. And How Justice hates sloth, thoughts this is the worst of the demons, I suppose... This is the one that prevents every act, and drowse the purpose etc. Sin of sloth definitely applies to Elthina. She just hopes Meredith and Orsino will play as good children. Now that I think about it, it's another reason why Anders/Justice blows up the Chantry instead of targeting Meredith directly. Elthina is ineffectual even if she can (in theory, at least) do something. Instead, she just hopes that things go better. Meredith on the other hand might be an immediate and very direct danger... but she's driven by different sins, namely pride and wrath. Both to some extend applies to Anders ("I know how to deal with Justice... oops, I killed a mage") and Justice (who can become Vengeance - probably some variation of rage demon). Anders sees the larger picture (destroying Chantry instead of just assassinating Meredith will provoke mage rebellion more likely) and Justice fights his greatest foe. Destroying the Chantry is truly something they can both agree on, probably for the first time in the game. They are the same now.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 12, 2018 22:10:08 GMT
That's a good idea. Yes, many symbols there. And How Justice hates sloth, thoughts this is the worst of the demons, I suppose... This is the one that prevents every act, and drowse the purpose etc. Sin of sloth definitely applies to Elthina. She just hopes Meredith and Orsino will play as good children. Now that I think about it, it's another reason why Anders/Justice blows up the Chantry instead of targeting Meredith directly. Elthina is ineffectual even if she can (in theory, at least) do something. Instead, she just hopes that things go better. Meredith on the other hand might be an immediate and very direct danger... but she's driven by different sins, namely pride and wrath. Both to some extend applies to Anders ("I know how to deal with Justice... oops, I killed a mage") and Justice (who can become Vengeance - probably some variation of rage demon). Anders sees the larger picture (destroying Chantry instead of just assassinating Meredith will provoke mage rebellion more likely) and Justice fights his greatest foe. Destroying the Chantry is truly something they can both agree on, probably for the first time in the game. They are the same now. Anders: How can you keep standing up for her? Sebastian: Who? Anders: That doddering old biddy of a Grand Cleric. Sebastian: How dare you! Elthina is everything a grand cleric should be. She's holy, wise … Anders: Spineless... hesitant. She's clay in Meredith's hands. Sebastian: In the face of danger, sometimes the bravest thing is to stand back and trust that the Maker will see justice done. Anders: Well if doing nothing sums up your religion, then Elthina is perfect. Personally, I'd prefer a Chantry that favors action over sloth. Exactly so. (But not rage and not a demon. But Mr.Wiggums, in Awakening, was possessed by a rage demon... this is interesting: Anders attracted the demon or mr.Wiggums was just an "imaginary friend"? Never mentioned any possessed cat, who killed Templars in the Chantry's journals.)
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Post by davesin on Feb 12, 2018 22:33:01 GMT
(But not rage and not a demon. But Mr.Wiggums, in Awakening was possessed by a rage demon... this is interesting: Anders attracted the demon or mr.Wiggums was just an "imaginary friend"? Never mentioned any possessed cat, who killed Templars in the Chantry's journals. I think Vengeance is pretty clear manifestation of rage. Rightful one (at least in eyes of Justice), but still a rage. A being to which might makes right. Killing Ella (or whatever her name is) in Act 2 isn't a just act. Justice should try to calm down the girl, instead he wants to kill her when she cries "demon" out of terror. As for possesed cat... there is such demon in Shale's recruitment quest, so it is possible that while Anders attracted a demon, it might just "missed" a mage and get itself into animal's body. (I mean, there was at least one mage in the village - two if his daughter is a one as well. That desire demon is either terrible in possessing mages, or it's common among their kind that they might miss the most suited individual because they are confused when interacting with non-Fade world).
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Post by Catilina on Feb 12, 2018 23:04:09 GMT
(But not rage and not a demon. But Mr.Wiggums, in Awakening was possessed by a rage demon... this is interesting: Anders attracted the demon or mr.Wiggums was just an "imaginary friend"? Never mentioned any possessed cat, who killed Templars in the Chantry's journals.) I think Vengeance is pretty clear manifestation of rage. Rightful one (at least in eyes of Justice), but still a rage. A being to which might makes right. Killing Ella (or whatever her name is) in Act 2 isn't a just act. Justice should try to calm down the girl, instead he wants to kill her when she cries "demon" out of terror. As for possesed cat... there is such demon in Shale's recruitment quest, so it is possible that while Anders attracted a demon, it might just "missed" a mage and get itself into animal's body. (I mean, there was at least one mage in the village - two if his daughter is a one as well. That desire demon is either terrible in possessing mages, or it's common among their kind that they might miss the most suited individual because they are confused when interacting with non-Fade world). Justice + rage = Vengeance? That's exactly what from Anders feared. Yes, Justice influenced by Anders thoughts, it's no doubt. In Ella's case, in the heat of the battle, he enraged, and when they beat The Templars, he faced his greatest fear: someone called him a demon. I suppose he was confused, who is the enemy – at the moment, if Hawke earned his trust (It does not really make sense in the rivalry, but... whatever...), can warn him, and Justice retreats when Hawke warns him to his real purpose. Justice: "I'm not Demon! Are you one of them, you call me such...? Hawke: "She's a mage, we rescued her..." Justice: "She's theirs, I feel..." Hawke: "She's your reason you're fighting, Anders".
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Post by Sah291 on Feb 13, 2018 0:09:39 GMT
That's a good idea. Yes, many symbols there. And How Justice hates sloth, thoughts this is the worst of the demons, I suppose... This is the one that prevents every act, and drowse the purpose etc. Sin of sloth definitely applies to Elthina. She just hopes Meredith and Orsino will play as good children. Now that I think about it, it's another reason why Anders/Justice blows up the Chantry instead of targeting Meredith directly. Elthina is ineffectual even if she can (in theory, at least) do something. Instead, she just hopes that things go better. Meredith on the other hand might be an immediate and very direct danger... but she's driven by different sins, namely pride and wrath. Both to some extend applies to Anders ("I know how to deal with Justice... oops, I killed a mage") and Justice (who can become Vengeance - probably some variation of rage demon). Anders sees the larger picture (destroying Chantry instead of just assassinating Meredith will provoke mage rebellion more likely) and Justice fights his greatest foe. Destroying the Chantry is truly something they can both agree on, probably for the first time in the game. They are the same now.Yep, that's why I love the whole Fade quest, because it perfectly foreshadows everything that happens later in the game. You've got two powerful demons, pride and desire (Orsino and Meredith?) vying for power, and turning companions against you. Then a sloth demon (Elthina?) at the center of it all who tries to make a deal with Hawke. Hawke has a choice there to make the deal and kill Anders/Justice...and if you do, Anders will ask if you would kill him again to silence him. Also, I think because Meredith was always set up as a rival to Hawke. Even if you side with her at the start of act 3, the relationship is always contentious. Hawke is shown to have considerable sway with the nobles, and even the Templars lose faith in her by the end. Hawke was always going to take her down. But Elthina was the more subtle, ideological threat in the background...the kind of person I think Anders understood, because they were a lot alike (both willing to martyr themselves for one).
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Post by Catilina on Feb 13, 2018 0:35:30 GMT
Sin of sloth definitely applies to Elthina. She just hopes Meredith and Orsino will play as good children. Now that I think about it, it's another reason why Anders/Justice blows up the Chantry instead of targeting Meredith directly. Elthina is ineffectual even if she can (in theory, at least) do something. Instead, she just hopes that things go better. Meredith on the other hand might be an immediate and very direct danger... but she's driven by different sins, namely pride and wrath. Both to some extend applies to Anders ("I know how to deal with Justice... oops, I killed a mage") and Justice (who can become Vengeance - probably some variation of rage demon). Anders sees the larger picture (destroying Chantry instead of just assassinating Meredith will provoke mage rebellion more likely) and Justice fights his greatest foe. Destroying the Chantry is truly something they can both agree on, probably for the first time in the game. They are the same now. Yep, that's why I love the whole Fade quest, because it perfectly foreshadows everything that happens later in the game. You've got two powerful demons, pride and desire (Orsino and Meredith?) vying for power, and turning companions against you. Then a sloth demon (Elthina?) at the center of it all who tries to make a deal with Hawke. Hawke has a choice there to make the deal and kill Anders/Justice...and if you do, Anders will ask if you would kill him again to silence him. Also, I think because Meredith was always set up as a rival to Hawke. Even if you side with her at the start of act 3, the relationship is always contentious. Hawke is shown to have considerable sway with the nobles, and even the Templars lose faith in her by the end. Hawke was always going to take her down. But Elthina was the more subtle, ideological threat in the background...the kind of person I think Anders understood, because they were a lot alike (both willing to martyr themselves for one). She was hostile even in the qunari war. Yes, she saves Hawke's life (wanted to oblige Hawke, she needed Hawke's help? who knows), but she didn't show any benevolence. (I suppose Meredith was rather pride/fear mixture than desire... or perhaps desire for power? That makes some sense.) I don't think Anders really wanted to be a martyr, rather just wanted to believe, what he did, was not in vain. I also don't think, Elthiny wanted to be a martyr. She really believed, she's untouchable (sloth and pride). The reason Anders picked the Chantry instead the Gallows was clear: the Chantry did nothing, when would able to prevent the sins (sloth). This was the real enemy, not the Gallows. The Gallows just a prison.
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Post by Sah291 on Feb 13, 2018 0:53:08 GMT
Elthina might have been delusional enough to think she was untouchable, but Sebastian had a much more sober view of her...he says she'll protect her flock no matter what and be torn apart. So I think he knew she would martyr herself if it came to that. Not that she wanted to, but she wasn't going to back down and leave at any cost.
I think Meredith helped Hawke, but she wasn't expecting Hawke to beat her at her own game defending Kirkwall from the Qunari. I think she expected to get credit for that and that it would solidify her power. She just looks so ticked off in that scene, after Hawke defeats the Arishok.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 17, 2018 0:01:00 GMT
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Post by nappilydeestruction on Feb 17, 2018 20:23:10 GMT
I think Anders is the most complex and complicated and interesting character in the whole Dragon Age series. The stuff he must've went through in his life. Its like he's trying to figure out where does he fit in the world. All he wants to do is help people, I mean he is a healer afterall. I can't imagine what it is like for my mage Hawke to go through such lengths to protect the person she loves/hates. It must be a heavy burden just to try to explain to people how important Anders is to her. I dunno if I could go through what she goes through with her love Anders.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 22, 2018 3:46:29 GMT
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Post by Catilina on Feb 28, 2018 22:42:19 GMT
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Post by Catilina on Mar 2, 2018 1:45:37 GMT
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Post by Catilina on Mar 3, 2018 0:04:14 GMT
Catilina - love that picture of Anders. Not sure if you read Asunder but am reading it now and came across this about Anders and Kirkwall: Leliana talking to Evangeline: "The circle of Magi in Kirkwall rebelled and plunged the city into war, and we've been feeling the effects across Thedas ever since.The templars now have two ways they can view it:either as a challenge to their authority or a a lesson to be learned." Then later on in their discussion: "The rebellion in Kirkwall had sparked and unrest in every Circle across Thedas, and the resulting crackdown had made the things very tense."It's sad that they saw it as a challenge and not act of desperation. What might have been had they acted differently. It's a challenge to the Templars, to learn from the other Templars' fault, I guess. But the book, at least makes it clear, what Anders did was not vain. At least Gaider didn't throw him into the waste bin. I will read the book soon! I'm afraid, I will be disappointed, but I'm prepared... I suppose.
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Post by davesin on Mar 3, 2018 7:19:36 GMT
Catilina I still don't get how you, of all people, could miss this book. Unless, of course, you don't like Gaider's style of writing. Catilina - love that picture of Anders. Not sure if you read Asunder but am reading it now and came across this about Anders and Kirkwall: Leliana talking to Evangeline: "The circle of Magi in Kirkwall rebelled and plunged the city into war, and we've been feeling the effects across Thedas ever since.The templars now have two ways they can view it:either as a challenge to their authority or a a lesson to be learned." Then later on in their discussion: "The rebellion in Kirkwall had sparked and unrest in every Circle across Thedas, and the resulting crackdown had made the things very tense."It's sad that they saw it as a challenge and not act of desperation. What might have been had they acted differently. I wonder what's the official version now, after Varric's interrogation. The fight was started by Meredith who didn't punish an apostate mage who actually blew up the Chantry instead of people who weren't responsible for it (although Orsino was harboring blood mages, he and Sebastian have a point about punishing Anders so giant you could beat people to death with it).
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Post by Catilina on Mar 3, 2018 10:38:37 GMT
Catilina I still don't get how you, of all people, could miss this book. Unless, of course, you don't like Gaider's style of writing. Catilina - love that picture of Anders. Not sure if you read Asunder but am reading it now and came across this about Anders and Kirkwall: Leliana talking to Evangeline: "The circle of Magi in Kirkwall rebelled and plunged the city into war, and we've been feeling the effects across Thedas ever since.The templars now have two ways they can view it:either as a challenge to their authority or a a lesson to be learned." Then later on in their discussion: "The rebellion in Kirkwall had sparked and unrest in every Circle across Thedas, and the resulting crackdown had made the things very tense."It's sad that they saw it as a challenge and not act of desperation. What might have been had they acted differently. I wonder what's the official version now, after Varric's interrogation. The fight was started by Meredith who didn't punish an apostate mage who actually blew up the Chantry instead of people who weren't responsible for it (although Orsino was harboring blood mages, he and Sebastian have a point about punishing Anders so giant you could beat people to death with it). I didn't read one DA book, not only Asunder. But perhaps, today, I buy that book. The Mages needed some incentive. I can not find it controversial. Not this the "official", this is the book version. The book doesn't overwrite the gamer's decisions (Wynne/Shale can die for example, and this is canon, just as the Asunder).
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Post by davesin on Mar 3, 2018 11:16:56 GMT
I wonder what's the official version now, after Varric's interrogation. The fight was started by Meredith who didn't punish an apostate mage who actually blew up the Chantry instead of people who weren't responsible for it (although Orsino was harboring blood mages, he and Sebastian have a point about punishing Anders so giant you could beat people to death with it). The Mages needed some incentive. I can not find it controversial. Not this the "official", this is the book version. The book doesn't overwrite the gamer's decisions (Wynne/Shale can die for example, and this is canon, just as the Asunder). Okay, I guess? I wasn't arguing whether or not Anders' or other mages actions in Kirkwall were just, I was pointing out no one really know what happened there for sure, outside of few people who were directly present (and most of them are either dead, on the run or fighting for their lives after DA2). Cassandra thought there was some big conspiracy led by Hawke, Leliana is implying it was the Circle who attacked the Chantry (she's alive in all worldstates. Wynne being possessed with spirit and Shale being a golem, they might both survived as well. And the main events of Asunder happens no matter what, just differently.). Now that they know what happened, I just wonder if they revealed the information.
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Post by Catilina on Mar 3, 2018 11:22:05 GMT
The Mages needed some incentive. I can not find it controversial. Not this the "official", this is the book version. The book doesn't overwrite the gamer's decisions (Wynne/Shale can die for example, and this is canon, just as the Asunder). Okay, I guess? I wasn't arguing whether or not Anders' or other mages actions in Kirkwall were just, I was pointing out no one really know what happened there for sure, outside of few people who were directly present (and most of them are either dead, on the run or fighting for their lives after DA2). Cassandra thought there was some big conspiracy led by Hawke, Leliana is implying it was the Circle who attacked the Chantry (she's alive in all worldstates. Wynne being possessed with spirit and Shale being a golem, they might both survived as well. And the main events of Asunder happens no matter what, just differently.). Now that they know what happened, I just wonder if they revealed the information. So: this is complicated. (Then Anders didn't die by Hawke's knife? He possessed by a Spirit too, but Gaider said: if Hawke killed him, he died.)
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Post by davesin on Mar 3, 2018 11:24:44 GMT
(Then Anders didn't die by Hawke's knife? He possessed by a Spirit too, but Gaider said: if Hawke killed him, he died.) Hey, after head-growing Leliana, you cannot be sure unless you burn the body. Or eat it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2018 11:26:15 GMT
(Then Anders didn't die by Hawke's knife? He possessed by a Spirit too, but Gaider said: if Hawke killed him, he died.) Justice's a different story though.
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Post by Catilina on Mar 3, 2018 11:36:56 GMT
(Then Anders didn't die by Hawke's knife? He possessed by a Spirit too, but Gaider said: if Hawke killed him, he died.) Justice's a different story though. You read the short story, you know, Justice able to protect him.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2018 11:37:57 GMT
Justice's a different story though. You read the short story, you know, Justice able to protect him. When Anders dies, Justice is a different story (aka he may or may not be dead, idk)
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Post by Catilina on Mar 3, 2018 11:40:38 GMT
You read the short story, you know, Justice able to protect him. When Anders dies, Justice is a different story (aka he may or may not be dead, idk) Yes, of course. This question remained open. Just as the spirit–demon issue.
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Post by Catilina on Mar 3, 2018 11:42:38 GMT
(Then Anders didn't die by Hawke's knife? He possessed by a Spirit too, but Gaider said: if Hawke killed him, he died.) Hey, after head-growing Leliana, you cannot be sure unless you burn the body. Or eat it. We can't sure about anything... You have a good taste...
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Post by Catilina on Mar 3, 2018 13:16:10 GMT
Catilina I still don't get how you, of all people, could miss this book. Unless, of course, you don't like Gaider's style of writing. I wonder what's the official version now, after Varric's interrogation. The fight was started by Meredith who didn't punish an apostate mage who actually blew up the Chantry instead of people who weren't responsible for it (although Orsino was harboring blood mages, he and Sebastian have a point about punishing Anders so giant you could beat people to death with it). Good point. Don't know what the official version is. Varric may have changed the story to protect his friends or was the version he told Cassandra the truth. And Leliana is taking the measure of a templar when she is talking to her. Could be the mages were already rebelling in the Kirkwall circle when Anders blew the Chantry or once it blew then fought back. Either one Varric may not have know that part. Kind of think the mages rebelled once the Chantry was blown, now or never fight for freedom. I suppose this is just a summary of the whole story. Whatever happened, the Kirkwall Circle rebelled. By the way, this was Varric summarize too: "the Circles rebelled and set the world on fire." If you watch Cassandra and Varric's conversation, Cassandra and Varric always summarize: blame Meredith (Cassandra), blame the red lyrium... or Anders... (Varric), blame Hawke (both)... and: blame the Templars/Seekers, who rebelled against the Chantry for hunting the Mages (Varric).
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Post by Sah291 on Mar 4, 2018 13:58:35 GMT
Good point. Don't know what the official version is. Varric may have changed the story to protect his friends or was the version he told Cassandra the truth. And Leliana is taking the measure of a templar when she is talking to her. Could be the mages were already rebelling in the Kirkwall circle when Anders blew the Chantry or once it blew then fought back. Either one Varric may not have know that part. Kind of think the mages rebelled once the Chantry was blown, now or never fight for freedom. I suppose this is just a summary of the whole story. Whatever happened, the Kirkwall Circle rebelled. By the way, this was Varric summarize too: "the Circles rebelled and set the world on fire." If you watch Cassandra and Varric's conversation, Cassandra and Varric always summarize: blame Meredith (Cassandra), blame the red lyrium... or Anders... (Varric), blame Hawke (both)... and: blame the Templars/Seekers, who rebelled against the Chantry for hunting the Mages (Varric). Yeah I think so. The book has the problem that it can't mention Hawke or any of the choices you made, since that can vary. The end result was the circle rebelling either way, but the book never goes into much detail about how that all happened...just that it did. The events of the book focus entirely on the rebellion at the White Spire, and that is where they take a vote and the war begins officially. Adrian mentions having contacts outside the Spire she was involved with, so I imagine they were probably from one of the other circles that had already rebelled.
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