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Post by slimgrin727 on Mar 7, 2019 5:43:35 GMT
Actually, this was completely on point even if he didn't mean it to be. People are voting for MP with their dollars and their time. And Apex Legends has just hit 50 million players 4 times faster than Fortnite. 50 million players. Well shit. AAA single player games are not looking in a good spot right now ... Yikes.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Mar 7, 2019 12:05:10 GMT
People often think that multiplayer detracts from single player when there isn't a shred of evidence that this is the case. Multiplayer uses the same resources and art as single player and is often constructed using mechanics also used in the single player game. BioWare games in particular don't have a unique multiplayer experience distinct from the single player game. There isn't any evidence that multiplayer prospects can add to the single player game's budget but if one is willing to believe that MP cuts from SP costs despite there being no evidence then you can probably believe this as well if your agenda leaned in a different direction. Point is multiplayer is a significant asset that can supplement a single player game. A pure SP experience with no microtransactions and no MP is no longer a sustainable business model. Even purely "SP" games have lootboxes and microtransactions. And ultimately your opinion, while shared by many, is also disagreed upon by many. Assassin's Creed Odyssey contained all that you mentioned and people still roasted it for having microtransactions. God of War wants you to hold their beer. I guess Sony Santa Monica is going to go out of business because according to you: "A pure SP experience with no microtransactions and no MP is no longer a sustainable business model." Just because it can still work in some situations doesn't make it a standard business model that most companies/investors will rely on. You can quote a few examples that managed to make it work. It doesn't make them the rule. It makes them the exception. There are quite a few parameters that you are gladly ignoring for your agenda such as the fact that all these games you listed being PS4 exclusives. This means that they not only have to support just one platform (so their measure of success is also pretty relative), they also likely have deals with Sony in place for that exclusivity in the first place. In some cases, like Horizon, the developer is not based in North America. If you want to dig in to the intricacies of tax benefits, developer wages, and business costs between the USA and Europe (especially Netherlands and Eastern Europe), go right ahead. Lower relative costs means lower investment count means more risks. All of that makes up for the lack of live service options. One-dimensional hyperbolic reasoning is standard around here though. I'm sure you think those companies were being altruistic and the investors just love gamers so much! Roflmfao Maybe DA4 should be PS4 exclusive. RIP Romance mods. Maybe just relocate all of BioWare to Poland so that we can have cheaper games! Screw devs' livelihood I can't have MP in my games!
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Post by smilesja on Mar 8, 2019 0:26:00 GMT
Actually, this was completely on point even if he didn't mean it to be. People are voting for MP with their dollars and their time. And Apex Legends has just hit 50 million players 4 times faster than Fortnite. 50 million players. Well shit, AAA single player games are not looking in a good spot right now ... C'est la vie That is crazy! Perhaps I should play it after all.
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Post by smilesja on Mar 8, 2019 0:29:54 GMT
The only time where multiplayer interfered with single player was ME3 and that was remedied rather quick, wasn't it? I think all this worrying is a bit excessive. Multiplayer and single player for Dragon Age will be separate entities.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 8, 2019 0:46:33 GMT
You know there is a possibility that with Odysseys success DA 4 might not have any mp at all.
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Post by thats1evildude on Mar 8, 2019 0:50:37 GMT
You know there is a possibility that with Odysseys success DA 4 might not have any mp at all.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 8, 2019 0:55:32 GMT
You know there is a possibility that with Odysseys success DA 4 might not have any mp at all. I'll admit its unlikely but Ubisoft is A. Just as money hungry as EA. B. Is as MP friendly as EA, yet ACOD has none. C. Are a western publisher. And, perhsps most importantly has shown a way of monetizing SP games.
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Post by river82 on Mar 8, 2019 1:02:01 GMT
And Apex Legends has just hit 50 million players 4 times faster than Fortnite. 50 million players. Well shit, AAA single player games are not looking in a good spot right now ... C'est la vie That is crazy! Perhaps I should play it after all. I can't play it. I watch videos of people playing and it's all charging in and lightning fast twitch reflexes ... I wouldn't survive 5 seconds xD I think I need something a bit slower paced
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Mar 8, 2019 1:51:23 GMT
You know there is a possibility that with Odysseys success DA 4 might not have any mp at all. Odyssey ran with cosmetic and gameplay microtransactions though, which is definitely an alternative to multiplayer. Personally I'd prefer multiplayer over a store as at least the former has some story potential in it. In DAI/ME3/MEA I would weave in MP games with my SP experience in order to increase immersion through simulated environments where my character wasn't the center of the narrative/universe. I particularly loved it in ME3 as there was a serious immediacy to the whole situation and I really felt like I was part of the scramble no matter who I played as, with Shepard at point.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 8, 2019 1:57:06 GMT
You know there is a possibility that with Odysseys success DA 4 might not have any mp at all. Odyssey ran with cosmetic and gameplay microtransactions though, which is definitely an alternative to multiplayer. Personally I'd prefer multiplayer over a store as at least the former has some story potential in it. In DAI/ME3/MEA I would weave in MP games with my SP experience in order to increase immersion through simulated environments where my character wasn't the center of the narrative/universe. I particularly loved it in ME3 as there was a serious immediacy to the whole situation and I really felt like I was part of the scramble no matter who I played as, with Shepard at point. I know, and I even agree with you to a point I'm just saying there have been very successful modern Tripple A RPGs...and even western RPGs which don't have any MP component at all. I'm kind of interested to see BioWare continue to experiment with various forms of Multiplayer but just pointing out that in the wake of Odyssey it might happen.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Mar 8, 2019 2:04:58 GMT
Odyssey ran with cosmetic and gameplay microtransactions though, which is definitely an alternative to multiplayer. Personally I'd prefer multiplayer over a store as at least the former has some story potential in it. In DAI/ME3/MEA I would weave in MP games with my SP experience in order to increase immersion through simulated environments where my character wasn't the center of the narrative/universe. I particularly loved it in ME3 as there was a serious immediacy to the whole situation and I really felt like I was part of the scramble no matter who I played as, with Shepard at point. I know, and I even agree with you to a point I'm just saying there have been very successful modern Tripple A RPGs...and even western RPGs which don't have any MP component at all. I'm kind of interested to see BioWare continue to experiment with various forms of Multiplayer but just pointing out that in the wake of Odyssey it might happen. Well yes. Multiplayer exists to support game longevity and the subsequent transaction potential. If a company can procure that differently then it's an option. Dragon Age games have longevity by nature of their existence as a multi-class, multi-racial, strongly narrative-oriented, party-focused, and relatively non-linear gameplay. So the transaction potential is already there. So it's quite possible for a Dragon Age store to be even more successful than the Odyssey one whether it's XP pots or armor sets. However, Dragon Age fans in particular (moreso than the typical BioWare fan) love to mod and a store runs directly counter to that as a store's success depends on who holds the cards and mods put that squarely in the player's (much to my relief). Modding would be heavily restricted for sure, but I'm sure industrious fans will crack the code at some point But yeah I still favor multiplayer. Not only is that at no extra cost to enjoy (unlike a store), it can enhance SP RPG experience if you, well, roleplay
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Post by colfoley on Mar 8, 2019 2:14:25 GMT
I know, and I even agree with you to a point I'm just saying there have been very successful modern Tripple A RPGs...and even western RPGs which don't have any MP component at all. I'm kind of interested to see BioWare continue to experiment with various forms of Multiplayer but just pointing out that in the wake of Odyssey it might happen. Well yes. Multiplayer exists to support game longevity and the subsequent transaction potential. If a company can procure that differently then it's an option. Dragon Age games have longevity by nature of their existence as a multi-class multi-racial strongly narrative-oriented and party-focused relatively non-linear gameplay, so the transaction potential is already there. So it's quite possible for a Dragon Age store to be even more successful than the Odyssey one whether it's XP pots or armor sets. However, Dragon Age fans in particular (moreso than the typical BioWare fan) love to mod and a store runs directly counter to that as a store's success depends on who holds the cards and mods put that squarely in the player's (much to my relief). Modding would be heavily restricted for sure, but I'm sure industrious fans will crack the code at some point But yeah I still favor multiplayer. Not only is that at no extra cost to enjoy (unlike a store), it can enhance SP RPG experience if you, well, roleplay That is actually a really excellent point and something that I had not considered. Still I think for most of the audience, unlike us extremists who play these games over and over again, they don't play them that much to where basically...they can wait for a new release after a very long time. Which is one of the advantages of live service because it just keeps adding crap that will, the business model hopes, keep people playing longer. So the whole store thing will be one of the things that will keep people playing for longer...so these publishers are hoping. Which is one of my issues with live service that these games might be too long to make replaying them impossible...probably not. And then there is the caveat that Frostbite isn't mod friendly to begin with.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Mar 8, 2019 2:26:33 GMT
Honestly all I care about is the SP experience. They can do what they want, as long as they deliver a story I can enjoy.
Everything else is icing on the cake.
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Post by Frost on Mar 8, 2019 5:13:03 GMT
You know there is a possibility that with Odysseys success DA 4 might not have any mp at all. Colfoley, don't get my hopes up!!!
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Post by Ieldra on Mar 8, 2019 10:31:44 GMT
Still I think for most of the audience, unlike us extremists who play these games over and over again, they don't play them that much to where basically...they can wait for a new release after a very long time. Which is one of the advantages of live service because it just keeps adding crap that will, the business model hopes, keep people playing longer. So the whole store thing will be one of the things that will keep people playing for longer...so these publishers are hoping. You can "keep adding crap" without the game becoming a "live service". The term implies you need to be online all the time to use it, but you can keep adding dlc in order to keep the game interesting without that element. EU4 did that well, and as a result I spent as much money on it as on four regular full-price games over two years. I did that because the added content was significant. There were some small aesthetic changes or added unit packs (for flavor and culture, not power), but the big additions were new mechanics which made the game more interesting and strategy more complex. I paid for that without any regrets.
"Live service", however, implies that they want you to pay for insignificant things like single pieces of new gear, or even worse, randomized equipment packs which makes this model like gambling. I might be suckered into paying for that here and there, but I know I'd feel bad afterwards for having wasted money on useless crap, and that's a big disincentive. And even powerful gear is useless crap, since its mere exclusive presence means that not all people play by the same rules, and so why should I, and not just cheat instead? It's basically "pay to win". I have enough self-respect left to not go there. I'd rather not play the game at all.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 8, 2019 10:47:27 GMT
Still I think for most of the audience, unlike us extremists who play these games over and over again, they don't play them that much to where basically...they can wait for a new release after a very long time. Which is one of the advantages of live service because it just keeps adding crap that will, the business model hopes, keep people playing longer. So the whole store thing will be one of the things that will keep people playing for longer...so these publishers are hoping. You can "keep adding crap" without the game becoming a "live service". The term implies you need to be online all the time to use it, but you can keep adding dlc in order to keep the game interesting without that element. EU4 did that well, and as a result I spent as much money on it as on four regular full-price games over two years. I did that because the added content was significant. There were some small aesthetic changes or added unit packs (for flavor and culture, not power), but the big additions were new mechanics which made the game more interesting and strategy more complex. I paid for that without any regrets.
"Live service", however, implies that they want you to pay for insignificant things like single pieces of new gear, or even worse, randomized equipment packs which makes this model like gambling. I might be suckered into paying for that here and there, but I know I'd feel bad afterwards for having wasted money on useless crap, and that's a big disincentive. And even powerful gear is useless crap, since its mere exclusive presence means that not all people play by the same rules, and so why should I, and not just cheat instead? It's basically "pay to win". I have enough self-respect left to not go there. I'd rather not play the game at all.
Granted while i havent tried to play any LS game off line itd shock me if you can't. Also none of what you said seems to jive with my personal experience in any of the three LS games I've played.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Mar 8, 2019 10:56:03 GMT
I don't care about the possibility of a store as long as it's not pay to win. There can be nice/powerful gear in there, but it should not exceed the power level of gear you're able to get in the game itself, by normal means. I'm fine with cosmetic items as well.
I've bought DLC item packs for both DA2 and DAI. In fact, I think DA2 handled the power level issue well. Sure, the gear does give you a boost in Act 1/2, but because they are fixed level, they will eventually become outdated as you level up and found gear becomes better. I've long said that I will happily buy a piece of gear I'm interested in directly, but will NOT engage in lootbox farming, no matter how awesome it is.
I'm the sort for whom appearance outweighs functionality. I will wear a piece of gear long past its usefulness if I like the way it looks. I've done this in many games and only upgrade when it becomes absolutely necessary*. I've also modded DA2 items to add the "evolving" property only because I preferred their appearance and wanted to keep using it.
* Alternatively, I will keep "real" gear around for "serious" gameplay like raiding in WoW that requires obligation to one's teammates that you're at your best.
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Post by Ieldra on Mar 8, 2019 12:02:24 GMT
I don't care about the possibility of a store as long as it's not pay to win. I think that would be the bottom line for me as well.
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Post by biggydx on Mar 8, 2019 18:50:43 GMT
I think the implementation of Microtransactions depends on a number of factors: A lot of developers that don't implement microtransactions into their games are able to do so because: - They're likely published by a 1st party publisher (Microsoft/Sony/Nintendo), who makes more than enough money off hardware sales to absorb the lack of recurrent revenue
- They're a developer that owns proprietary software/hardware that can help fund their games (ex. Epic Games - Unreal Engine, CDPR - GoG.com)
- The game is relatively small in scope, so the development costs vs sales profit is high enough for the game to not need microtransactions (ex. Octopath Traveler - Square Enix, A Way Out - EA)
Gaming is no different of an industry than any other, and companies will do whats necessary to make money; whether the actions they take are things we like or not. Much of the gaming population is desensitized to microtransactions at this point, so it's likely to be the norm with most AAA games; including ones that are successful. Multiplayer is one of the ways developers/publishers can make money. We've seen this with the success of ME3 MP. At the end of the day, all you can do is appreciate the gesture when devs don't have them in their games, and hope that they [microtransactions] aren't significantly abrasive in other titles. You know there is a possibility that with Odysseys success DA 4 might not have any mp at all. I believe BioWare already posted out a job notice for people to work on Dragon Age Multiplayer; not too long ago. I'm fine with the mode if it's largely separated from the singleplayer experience; which DA:I and ME:A. I just hope to god they've dropped that lootbox system for progression in multiplayer. I put up with it in ME3 and DA:I, but ME:A really did it for me; especially after the loot bloat.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Mar 8, 2019 21:27:18 GMT
I would hope they'd avoid the lootbox situation now that it's being recognized as effectively being gambling.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Mar 8, 2019 21:52:53 GMT
I would hope they'd avoid the lootbox situation now that it's being recognized as effectively being gambling. They miiiiiight, but PEGI only bars "gambling elements" from games intended for children, and to my knowledge, no other country has enacted meaningful legislation about the issue at all.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Mar 8, 2019 22:02:18 GMT
I would hope they'd avoid the lootbox situation now that it's being recognized as effectively being gambling. They miiiiiight, but PEGI only bars "gambling elements" from games intended for children, and to my knowledge, no other country has enacted meaningful legislation about the issue at all. I took Lebanese Dude's remark to be more about consumer reaction than any sort of official regulation. For the developers and their parent companies, it just depends on how unpopular they are and whether the profit margins from whales will offset that unpopularity. It's... hehe... a gamble.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Mar 8, 2019 22:42:13 GMT
They miiiiiight, but PEGI only bars "gambling elements" from games intended for children, and to my knowledge, no other country has enacted meaningful legislation about the issue at all. I took Lebanese Dude's remark to be more about consumer reaction than any sort of official regulation. For the developers and their parent companies, it just depends on how unpopular they are and whether the profit margins from whales will offset that unpopularity. It's... hehe... a gamble.
Oh, well consumers have been complaining about lootboxes since they were ever a thing. Nobody actually LIKES them, but they buy them regardless. I think official regulation of some sort is going to be necessary to make it stop. What baffles me is why it's taking so long. PEGI knew in 2006 that games of chance in video games have the same psychological effect as gambling, despite not meeting the legal definition that applies to real-life casinos, and they enacted guidelines to keep it out of childrens' games. Any game where players can visit and play at a casino or anything remotely similar now has to be rated automatically higher, regardless of the other content. As a result, Nintendo removed its series-constant 'Game Corner' from international versions of Pokemon Diamond and Pearl, and cut the feature from the series completely, going forward, and no real money was ever involved in that at all. Lootboxes and similar are clearly in the exact same boat, where they skirt the 'legal' definition, but have the same psychological impact. This is by design. Publishers always KNEW it was sleazy, and they'll only stop either when the classification boards MAKE them, or when it stops making money.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Mar 9, 2019 1:20:10 GMT
If they do go with microtransactions a store with listed items would be a much better idea honestly. Leave the RNG to drops from boss kills.
Anthem has gone the way of a rotating store that can still push for microtransactions via in-game currency or dollars. I believe there is a mildly negative reaction to not having the complete store available, much to my surprise. Perhaps they were a little too cautious? Unsure. Still this is a looter shooter with no lootboxes, which is definitely something I did not expect.
It shows that EA might be aware of this and aren't pushing lootboxes as hard on future titles. Given that DA is a single player game, I genuinely think there's a better chance they'll go the ACO route to supplement the SP/MP experience.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 10, 2019 20:28:25 GMT
Well, I'm not touching DA4 unless it is PRIMARILY a SP story. In fact, I'd go so far as to say EXCLUSIVELY, and just tack on MP for those who insist on having it in everything.
There's a reason I didn't waste my money on Anthem.
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